Loved Firefly, but Serenity *sucked* (SPOLIERS) by Jusl89

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Loved Firefly, but Serenity *sucked* (SPOLIERS)

POSTED BY: JUSL89
UPDATED: Friday, December 16, 2005 12:26
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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 9:09 PM

Serenity was a big dissappointment for me. I'm going to list in decending order what dissappointed me the most:

1. Wash's death. Thanks Joss Whedon, for making me lose all interest in seeing any possible sequels or series revivals again. I can't imagine Firefly without Wash. He was a great part of the heart and soul of the series, and without him, there is no Firefly. There was no reason for him to die, and even the way he died was ridiculous. Wash's death prevented me from enjoying the ending of the movie. So great, they dealt a wound to the Alliance. Too bad the strength of the series wasn't about them fighting the Alliance or the Reavers, but was about the great characters and the character interactions. Wash's death was a result of trying to artifically increase tension in an action sequence, and what a waste it was.

2. The Simon-Jayne-Mal interaction. In Serenity, Jayne and Simon were acting like Ariel never happened, and that Simon never had that talk with Jayne in the episode "Trash". In fact, Simon acts like "Safe" never happened, and doesn't have Mal's trust. This made the Simon in Serenity seem alien to me, and I didn't see him as the same Simon in Firefly.

3. Book's death. I hated this for many of the same reason's as Wash's death. Book didn't need to die.

4. Too much action. The best episodes of Firefly were NOT action filled. Granted, seeing the Reaver ships fight the Alliance was awesome, but the rest of the action sequences were tired. River beating everyone up with martial arts? Everyone knew she would win, there was no excitement in it. And how the hell did Mal know to pretend to freeze up when the Operative hit him with the nerve strike? Didn't make sense.

5. Mal didn't kill the Operative? So the Operative kills all of Mals friends, kills Book, and leads to the death of Wash, and yet he walks away? If there ever was a use for a death, this would be it.

6. Jayne would not agree to go on a philanthropic "save the world" mission. This was way out of character. He didn't even ask what the payoff would be.

7. Ending secret was lame. So the Alliance created the Reavers? I've heard the same premise from worse sci-fi stories. And given the police state that the Alliance is, I woulnd't see how knowing that the Alliance created the Reavers would significantly weaken them.

8. Ending was a net loss. Mal lost alot at the end. The extent to how the Alliance was weakened was vague and uninteresting, without anything susbstnatial to show for all their efforts. In fact, most of the movie was directionless.

9. Not enough Inara. In Serenity, it wasn't even explained what she did or why she was on the ship. And at the end she is firing a bow and arrow? What the hell is that?

I could go on, but I'm tired. In my mind, Serenity never happened.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:00 PM

HKCAVALIER

Yeah, Jus, every last one of your points is pretty obvious to me. When I saw Buffy for the first time after seeing Firefly I wondered, "How could the same guy create both these shows?" After Serenity, I wondered the same thing.

Just rewatched The Message. They created more pathos from one scene and a tape recorded message than Serenity generated over the whole movie. What was up with those goofy hologram topped grave markers?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 10:26 PM

NDRAGE85

while i'd like to get into a lengthy post disagreeing with a lot of what you said, but also agreeing with some, I can't. i'm a college student and i have to be up in 3 hours for a mid-term. so i'll just state a short obvious: there are some things that had to be changed between characters to bring it to the big screen. if Joss hadn't, he would have been alienating the potential audience who aren't familiar with Firefly. sorry, i'd really like to elaborate(sp?) more, but when i write about things related to the Firefly 'Verse, i get too passionate, and that means i get to lengthy, and i need sleep. but i'll check in tomorrow afternoon hopefully. sorry.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:39 PM

RIMCAT

I love[d] 'Firefly' and there were parts of 'Serenity' that I really enjoyed. But there were a couple of chunks of the film that simply reinforced in me why there's fanfic.

In my 'verse, Wash isn't dead and I'm stickin' to it. Just the way it has to be for me. Book I can sorta deal with – the jury isn’t totally in on that yet, but Wash? No way, Jose! Without him, it’s just not the ‘verse I signed on for.

But that’s okay. Everyone’s got their own point of view on the subject. And like I said, that’s why there’s fan fic.

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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:42 PM

EMMA

Quote:
Originally posted by Rimcat:
But that’s okay. Everyone’s got their own point of view on the subject. And like I said, that’s why there’s fan fic.

If everyone was this magnanimous with their own point of view we would be living in a far nicer world than we are!

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Tuesday, October 18, 2005 11:53 PM

RIMCAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Emma:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rimcat:
But that’s okay. Everyone’s got their own point of view on the subject. And like I said, that’s why there’s fan fic.

If everyone was this magnanimous with their own point of view we would be living in a far nicer world than we are!

extremely dimensionally transcendental

Thank ya kindly.

No other way it *can* be, really. I can't make someone change their mind about something, all I can do is say why I feel a certain way and let them pick and choose from what I said.

Besides, I'm been part of another fandom that's *really* polarized about some issues. I certainly don't want to have that sort of stuff here in this 'verse.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:14 AM

GROUNDED

It's a shame that you were disappointed, but I don't agree with much of what you cite.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
1. Wash's death. Thanks Joss Whedon, for making me lose all interest in seeing any possible sequels or series revivals again. I can't imagine Firefly without Wash. He was a great part of the heart and soul of the series, and without him, there is no Firefly. There was no reason for him to die, and even the way he died was ridiculous. Wash's death prevented me from enjoying the ending of the movie. So great, they dealt a wound to the Alliance. Too bad the strength of the series wasn't about them fighting the Alliance or the Reavers, but was about the great characters and the character interactions. Wash's death was a result of trying to artifically increase tension in an action sequence, and what a waste it was.

There's nothing artificial about the increase in tension. After Book died I thought 'hey, maybe one death will be enough for Joss', so when Wash died the stakes were raised even higher. The ensuing corridor battle then sees Zoe, Jayne, Kaylee and Simon all getting hurt, and as each injury builds up to Simon getting shot you really get a sense that maybe no one (or at least very few of them) is coming out of there alive. If everyone had survived, all credibility for the seriousness of the situation is lost.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
2. The Simon-Jayne-Mal interaction. In Serenity, Jayne and Simon were acting like Ariel never happened, and that Simon never had that talk with Jayne in the episode "Trash". In fact, Simon acts like "Safe" never happened, and doesn't have Mal's trust. This made the Simon in Serenity seem alien to me, and I didn't see him as the same Simon in Firefly.

Months have passed between the end of Firefly and the beginning of the film. Due to the wonders of cancellation we may never know everything that happened in the that time, but given how much relationships changed over the course of the series, it's logical to assume that period was also change-filled. In fact, it would be pretty ridiculous to assume everyone went into stasis at the end of Firefly and all relationships are exactly as they were when the series ended.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
3. Book's death. I hated this for many of the same reason's as Wash's death. Book didn't need to die.

Of course he did - the crew needed to experience that horror to push them on towards Miranda. Having said that, I think the manner of his death could have been vastly improved. The 'deliver vital message with last breath' thing is a bit tired.

Another thing to think about on the topic of death is if Wash and Book hadn't died, who would you prefer to have died in their places? The answer is no one, because Joss makes you care about each and every one of these characters. Of course, if seeing beloved characters die is too much for you then maybe you shouldn't be watching anything from the Whedon stable...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
4. Too much action. The best episodes of Firefly were NOT action filled. Granted, seeing the Reaver ships fight the Alliance was awesome, but the rest of the action sequences were tired. River beating everyone up with martial arts? Everyone knew she would win, there was no excitement in it. And how the hell did Mal know to pretend to freeze up when the Operative hit him with the nerve strike? Didn't make sense.

Serenity is a sci-fi action movie. Joss would never have been able to sell Objects In Space 2, as cool as that might have been. Action movies need action, and, though I do partially agree with the point about River's fights, I think all the other action sequences were both well paced and well executed, given budget constraints. I don't think I've ever tire of that space battle.

Mal knew to freeze up because he knew that the nerve cluster was there. How did he know? Because, as he said, he'd had it removed following some war wound or other.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
5. Mal didn't kill the Operative? So the Operative kills all of Mals friends, kills Book, and leads to the death of Wash, and yet he walks away? If there ever was a use for a death, this would be it.

Firstly, letting the Operative see how deeply unfounded his belief is is a far crueler punishment than killing him. Secondly, if Mal kills the Operative, who's going to call the troops off?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
6. Jayne would not agree to go on a philanthropic "save the world" mission. This was way out of character. He didn't even ask what the payoff would be.

It's only out of character if you grossly simplify Jayne's character. Yes he cares about money. Yes he cares about himself. But has he ever been in this kind of situation before? When a character does something you might not expect but is still logical given what's happened to them that's called character development.

Besides, it's not like he has much choice in the matter. What's he going to do? Ask Mal to leave him on Miranda?...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
7. Ending secret was lame. So the Alliance created the Reavers? I've heard the same premise from worse sci-fi stories. And given the police state that the Alliance is, I woulnd't see how knowing that the Alliance created the Reavers would significantly weaken them.

It's not a police state at all. And it's not so much the creation of the Reavers that matters as it is the cover up of planetary genocide.

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
8. Ending was a net loss. Mal lost alot at the end. The extent to how the Alliance was weakened was vague and uninteresting, without anything susbstnatial to show for all their efforts. In fact, most of the movie was directionless.

That's the point. Mal was fighting to get the message out on principal, just as he fought for independence on principal. The consequences of their actions should be the subject of a sequel, and even if no sequel comes it doesn't matter. It's the tone of the ending that is important - it shows that there's hope that the message has made a difference. What would you have preferred? A newscaster announcing riots on Persephone?

Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
9. Not enough Inara. In Serenity, it wasn't even explained what she did or why she was on the ship. And at the end she is firing a bow and arrow? What the hell is that?

I didn't get the bow and arrow either, and it was a shame she didn't get much attention. Having said that, I'm not sure how Joss could have worked her into the story since she doesn't really have a lot to do with it. I'd rather have had her in it than not at all.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:38 AM

RELFEXIVE

Well argued, Grounded.

"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."
"Come a day there won't be room for naughty men like us to slip about at all..."
I know the secret.
http://www.theshadowdepository.co.uk/index.htm

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:48 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jusl89:
7. Ending secret was lame. So the Alliance created the Reavers? I've heard the same premise from worse sci-fi stories. And given the police state that the Alliance is, I woulnd't see how knowing that the Alliance created the Reavers would significantly weaken them.

It's not a police state at all. And it's not so much the creation of the Reavers that matters as it is the cover up of planetary genocide.

Hypothetically, consider the reaction in the US to a revelation that the terrorists who struck on 9/11 were directly created and supported by the CIA.

Please understand that I am not suggesting that this was true! But if it were, there would be a massive impact on public opinion -- even more so if the US government had been denying the existence of terrorists all along. The reaction within the Alliance would be similar.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:22 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I agree w/ Reflexive, great counterpoints to Jusl89's comments. Very much along the lines of what I was formulating when I read the beginning post in this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:

I didn't get the bow and arrow either, and it was a shame she didn't get much attention. Having said that, I'm not sure how Joss could have worked her into the story since she doesn't really have a lot to do with it. I'd rather have had her in it than not at all.

I am assuming that the bow Inara used is a weapon that she is very proficient with, hence the reason she chose it over a firearm. Considering the fact that she is a Companion schooled in many arts to move in the social circles of the Core planets it stands to reason that archery might still be hobby of the wealthy or elite. A bow in my thinking is a more graceful weapon & one I could see someone of Inara's grace preferring to a handgun.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:24 AM

R1Z

Gotta argue with you on one point:

Quote:
6. Jayne would not agree to go on a philanthropic "save the world" mission. This was way out of character. He didn't even ask what the payoff would be.

There was no payoff for Jayne in rescuing Mal and Wash in War Stories. Jayne lives in the 'verse, and the Reavers are often a threat to his life and livelihood. They may also have killed someone near and dear to him. I can see him getting pissed at who created them.

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:47 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Well argued indeed!

You said everything I wanted to say back.

Just a note about Jayne. I think Jayne made a decision to follow Mal after Ariel. That convinced him Mal was worthy of his loyalty. And by asking him not to tell the others he gave away his feeling of family for them all. Jayne was as roped in as the rest of them to the destiny they all shared on this mission.

FollowMal

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:51 AM

THELURKER

Quote:
the crew needed to experience that horror to push them on towards Miranda.

I agree with Grounded here and would further argue that Book's death was actually the device that restored Mal's "belief in something." Actually, I agree with all of Grounded's points.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:58 AM

HKCAVALIER

The problem I see with all these refutations of our disappointment is that they hinge on the idea that Joss somehow had to tell the story he told. He didn't. An artist has choices. Y'all say he had to change the story to make a movie, which may be true, but it doesn't mean he had to change the story in the manner he changed it. In another thread, I mentioned Batman Begins as a highly successful, cerebral, character driven action movie that made big, big bucks. To say that Joss had to make a popcorn movie just ain't so.

The huge problem with the "increase in tention" caused by Wash's death is that even the people who defend Joss's decision were taken out of the story by that event! Everyone is suddenly thrust into a meta-narrative of WWJD (what would Joss do?). We're not thinking about how our BDH's are going to deal with a specific problem in the story, we're thinking about how they're gonna deal with Joss Almighty. Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care. If he told a better story we'd all be thinking about what's happening to the characters in character terms, not hardcore fan terms. It's a huge error in judgement and a betrayal of the powerful sense of reality the show so effortlessly gave us week after week.

That Jayne's and Simon's relationship would evolve over several months is reasonable, but Joss didn't have to start the story so long after Objects in Space. More importantly, from a story standpoint, the changes should show some kind of logical progression--just saying "a lot can happen in seven months" is a cop-out. Joss was building a very specific kind of tention, with very specific and deep seated issues between these two characters. To simply replace it with a more expedient relationship is a betrayal of the story.

One thing though: I said I agreed with all of Jus's points, but I don't agree about Mal not killing the Operative. To the degree that the Mal of the movie holds any continuity with the Mal of the series, I bought it. Because Mal is not a hardass moral machine, he is a supple and surprising real human being with an amazing moral instinct. I'd say he was well aware of all the Operative had done, just as he figured out all of Jayne's actions on Ariel. Mal was able to rise out of the mechanism of revenge long enough to see a better way. That's the Mal I know and love, thru and thru.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:19 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The problem I see with all these refutations of our disappointment is that they hinge on the idea that Joss somehow had to tell the story he told. He didn't. An artist has choices. Y'all say he had to change the story to make a movie, which may be true, but it doesn't mean he had to change the story in the manner he changed it. In another thread, I mentioned Batman Begins as a highly successful, cerebral, character driven action movie that made big, big bucks. To say that Joss had to make a popcorn movie just ain't so.

Much as I like Batman Begins, it descends into a fairly pedestrian final sequence.

Movies and TV series have different pacing requirements. Genre films are action films by definition because if its a story about 9 people living their lives, you can make Short Cuts/Magnolia etc for a fraction of the cost using real world locations.

There ain't nothing wrong with Pocorn movies - BB was a popcorn movie, Star Wars was a pop corn movie, Jaws was a pop corn movie.

Quote:

Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care. If he told a better story we'd all be thinking about what's happening to the characters in character terms, not hardcore fan terms. It's a huge error in judgement and a betrayal of the powerful sense of reality the show so effortlessly gave us week after week.

At its base level, every word a writer puts on the page is a "power trip". Killing Wash was what Joss decided the story needed - it set up the stakes for the final sequence. For me, after that, I wasn't convinced that anyone would make it out. I'm sorry you didn't agree with the choice, and that's your right, but I don't think it can be classed as a betrayal at any level.

Quote:

To simply replace it with a more expedient relationship is a betrayal of the story.

How was the relationship "expedient"? The film doesn't say that Jayne and Simon trust each other - they do however at that moment share a common cause.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:44 AM

LIMINALOSITY

Quote:

I didn't get the bow and arrow either

Read here somewhere there's a deleted scene where the bow makes a guest appearance in the trunk Inara left in her shuttle.
DVD good, bring soon!

I mostly agree with what Grounded says. The movie needed to be this big, fast and hard for it to work at all. I didn't expect Joss to kill anyone (how'd I manage that being a big fan?).

Jus, please see if you can get yourself to go see it again. I know that must sound like torture, I wasn't sure I could watch Wash's death again. Bring someone who hasn't seen Firefly. That might really change your mind about the whole thing.

"Bright 'n shiny capt'n, not to fret."

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:58 AM

MATWANG

"Sucked" is too strong a word.

Maybe you thnk it could have been different -- I wouddl bet Joss would say the same thing at this point.

But to say it "sucked" is like throwing the baby away with the bathwater.

I cannot express how exciting it was to see our chicken-shaped spacecraft fly across the big screen! WHOO-HOO!!!!

Warts and all, I will forever rejoice gladly that Serenity made it to the big screen.

And yes, I want MORE MORE MORE!!!!

All you Serenity naysayers and "shouda-beeners" are just "big dam weenie-baits" IMHO.

Serenity needs our support, not our sniping.

Keep flyin,

MaTwang

"Carnivale -- it's not a show, it's a drug."

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:08 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Quote:
Hypothetically, consider the reaction in the US to a revelation that the terrorists who struck on 9/11 were directly created and supported by the CIA.

I wouldn't say supported exactly, but seeing as how Osama Bin Laden was trained by the US to fight the Russians guerrilla-style in Afghanistan, this is pretty much what happened....

And for the record, I don't agree with pretty much any of the criticism against the BDM in this thread. I thought it was a wonderful, magnificent ending (?) to a great series, and every death was earned in full. However, I fully support your right to feel the way you feel about it - I'm just sorry the movie didn't fill you with joy as it did me.

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:15 AM

RODASH

Jus,

Welcome to the *I disliked it* camp. There are quite a few of us that were disappointed for some of the same reasons you pointed out.

It has been argued a lot in other threads so I won't go into the same detail again.

"There is nothing more American than insulting people who do not share your opinions"

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:32 AM

RODASH

Jus - for more *I disliked it* POV's.

Oops, meant to paste the links to the previous threads. So, if you would like to read more on this subject - here you go:

http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13640#189666

http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=12689#182582

http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372#188332

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:04 AM

IDRAWART

I see your points and raise a few....
I believe that Mal did not kill the operative , because that would have killed what was left of his crew. He had a mission he was on and was willing to die for it. ( I do agree that the final secret could have been better, but now we know what the Reavers are and how they came to be) Also in the end it would have been suicide to kill the Operative cause frankly, they were surrounded but good and in need of a lot of medical help. wait to bite the hand that's feedin' ya till your in a better situation, and you can get away.
I too am upset at Books death as I REALLY wanted to dig into his past, but I guess that still can be done.
I thought the dynamics of the original 9 were perfect, and that included the marriage of Wash/ Zoe and the older wiser preacher. This will give opportunity to bring in a big name for part 2. We fans don't need a name but I've read reviews that state if might have helped get newbies in.
I also heard that Wash's death made the audience realize that anyone could go. I personally would not have killed him off but I've also heard that Alan (who plays Wash) had commitments and couldn't be in part 2-3.
As far as Capt'n not trusting Jayne, he had to put that behind him, he hired him knowing full well what he was and that he has no loyality, but you always can hope someone will change. I for pne feel that Jayne did see the light. He's got to realize that his crew cares for him and I think he's starting to care for them. He's warming up. Cappy has to trust him. deal with the consequences as they happen. kinda like letting your kids drive off in your car , not only the first time, but for the first months.you just gotta cross your fingers and go about your life.
Inara, yea, I agree she was frosting in this one. BUT as a fan, I was SOOOO happy to see her back with Mal. I want their relationship to flourish. I think they could at the very least be great friends. He needs her knowledged and care, she needs his strenght and love. and she knows the bow and arrow, sword and martial arts, in firefly they explain she is well versed in defense.
Action, you gotta have it for the newbies, and all the people who give you the money to make a film, in the movie business, everyone even remotely associated with it wants to tell their friends that THEY came up with THAT idea. I used to be in animation, people's brother's mother's got to say what should be in our movies and when we (the artists) said something wasn't gonna work, no one listened. It's the execs, they always have to have their finger in the pie. sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
you just gotta deal.
but I hope you give part 2 a chance to see if Joss answers any of your questions.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:15 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The problem I see with all these refutations of our disappointment is that they hinge on the idea that Joss somehow had to tell the story he told. He didn't. An artist has choices. Y'all say he had to change the story to make a movie, which may be true, but it doesn't mean he had to change the story in the manner he changed it. In another thread, I mentioned Batman Begins as a highly successful, cerebral, character driven action movie that made big, big bucks. To say that Joss had to make a popcorn movie just ain't so.

I do believe that Serenity is pretty close to what the 2nd season of Firefly would have been were it still on the air. Joss himself said that when he first wrote the script & it wound being too long it was because he tried to cram all he wanted from the 2nd season into the script. He did a rewrite to make it short enough to fit into the two hour time frame of the movie, but I believe the core of the movie was still where the 2nd season of the tv series would have taken us.

Both Alan Tudyk & Joss have mentioned that Wash would have most likely died before the end of the second season of the series, so why is his death in the movie any different. If Joss, Alan & the cast are okay w/ his death & the way it was done, why can't we the fans accept it?

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The huge problem with the "increase in tention" caused by Wash's death is that even the people who defend Joss's decision were taken out of the story by that event! Everyone is suddenly thrust into a meta-narrative of WWJD (what would Joss do?). We're not thinking about how our BDH's are going to deal with a specific problem in the story, we're thinking about how they're gonna deal with Joss Almighty. Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care. If he told a better story we'd all be thinking about what's happening to the characters in character terms, not hardcore fan terms. It's a huge error in judgement and a betrayal of the powerful sense of reality the show so effortlessly gave us week after week.

I'm sorry, but I don't think the death of either Wash or Book was part of any "power trip" on the part of Joss. In both Buffy & Angel we have seen that Joss is willing to kill of characters in order to further develop affected characters or pursue the development of his story. Why should Serenity be any different? Anyone that knows Joss knows that not all the characters are safe. Why should they be? Why should their reality be any different from our own where people die or are killed when placed into dangerous situations?

It is my belief that Wash and very likely Book would have died in the 2nd season of Firefly had it remained on television. The movie is the story Joss intended to convey on tv, but never got the chance to tell us. Not everyone will like the way the story goes, but you can't please everyone.

I don't agree that Joss "betrayed" us or made an "error in judgement" w/ the way he told the story. I respect your opinion & how you feel, but I do not agree.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
That Jayne's and Simon's relationship would evolve over several months is reasonable, but Joss didn't have to start the story so long after Objects in Space. More importantly, from a story standpoint, the changes should show some kind of logical progression--just saying "a lot can happen in seven months" is a cop-out. Joss was building a very specific kind of tention, with very specific and deep seated issues between these two characters. To simply replace it with a more expedient relationship is a betrayal of the story.

I do not see how the Jayne/Simon dynamic was unbelievable. Jayne & Simon were beginning to come to an understanding of sorts after the events in "Trash". Simon confronted Jayne over his betrayal on Ariel, but he also let Jayne know he bore no grudge, most likely due to Jayne's efforts in their escape from the Feds. He told Jayne they are on the same crew & that they must rely on each other in order to survive. Survival is a language that Jayne understands & appreciates. Put in those terms I believe that Jayne & Simon could find a way to coexist.

Add to the equation that Jayne sees Simon finally stand up to Mal & punch him after the return from the job at the beginning of the movie. Jayne is the type to appreciate someone standing up for themselves, especially to Mal.

Are they the best of friends? No, but I think they have a better understanding of one another & can get along.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:25 AM

DREAMTROVE

I have to disagree. Many of these points are well stated and valid, but I also concur that even if it wasn't what you were looking for, sucked is too strong. Mr. Mom sucked. Maybe Matrix 2 sucked. Possibly even Alien 3.

I don't mean this as an attack or a trolling counter, but as an attempt to explain possible answers to your problems with the film, in hopes you might be able to see it again without loathing.

1. Wash needed to die. I liked him to. Wash was one of my favorite characters. But I don't disagree with Joss' decision to remove him. Joss kills characters if their death adds more than their continued existance. It's all for the story. Without Wash the show does change. Joss wanted it to change, to make it darked, less spoofy. Trust in Joss. Sometimes he'll screw up, like leaving season 7 of buffy to marti noxon.

2. Simon has nothing against Jayne. Simon is an extreme pragmatist. It's a philosophy that leaves no room for personal vendetta.

3. Book was probably removed for a similar reason as Wash, or maybe this was an issue with the actor. I know in an interview Ron Glass made no bones about not liking science fiction. Maybe he had something else he wanted to do. If anyone knows the answer, please post it. For me, I found Book's moral superiority hard to take, but I know Joss doesn't care whether I like a character, only is that character serves the story.

4. A movie is either action or contemplation. Since Joss has the whole show for contemplation, there's little to be gained by a movie more of it. This was intended as a dose of action. Thank you Joss, much appreciated.

5. I don't know why Joss doesn't kill villains, maybe he wants to reuse them or prove that heros are different. If someone has theories, post them.

6. Jayne states his opposition to a plan, but doesn't hold out. It's very different, he's not uncooperative, he's dissent. Good dissent makes its case, and when losing, joins the fight as best as possible.

7. I don't think it would weaken the alliance, but it will make it easier for Mal and Co to gain allies. There's still a lot of fight ahead.

8. I think the movie was primarily a change of direction for the crew. In the series, they were running away. Now they have decided to turn and fight. The movie was largely about this transition. So nothing was particularly gained, but the transferance within the characters occured, and this was the point. Future firefly will be different.

9. I don't know about Inara. I find her tremendously uninteresting. At worst, she's like a baywatch character: Eye candy that whines. I admit she's hot, but if I want to just look at hot girls there are many programs for that, and they won't whine and bitch. Inara's feeling of superiority is also a problem for me. This was something that bothered me about Book. I don't like self important folk who think they're better than everyone else. But that's just me. But in the show, Inara really didn't help that much, and got our guys into trouble. I think as a character she needs a lot more development for me to care whether she gets skewered by a docking clamp.

I agree the holo-graves made me uneasy. Cartoon tragedy always falls flat.

On a side argument here, I had something to say about Osama Bin Laden.

OBL was not "created" by the CIA. Sure, they assisted him, but he was already fighting a war. I'm not at all sure that OBL had anything to do with 9/11. He claimed credit for it 3 years later. That's very unlike a terrorist. Terrorists gain power by getting credit, and here was one where everyone was throwing credit his way, and he wasn't taking it. This is not a defense of Osama Bin Laden, who is a psycho. It's just intended to raise a little doubt.

I'm not sure that I buy either sides story. On the one hand, OBL single handed action, hijacks planes, that knocks down buildings. On the other side, US plots the whole thing from within.

I don't like the standard explanation because I think it defies physics. I'm fairly certain that two planes flying into the world trade centers would not cause them to collapse. This explanation would need bombs on planes, or bombs in buildings, placed there by al qaeda, for me to buy it.

I don't like the counter argument either, I think lots of Americans died, rescue workers, corporate folk, and airline passengers. I would like to think that even Dick Cheney, who I think is a real SOB, would do that to his own people. That's like a Milosevic or Mugabe thing to do.

I think it is relevant to a firefly serenity debate because the possibility that we made the towers come down is a very similar situation. What would it do to the US if this came out? (assuming it were true) I agree it would not cause the US to collapse. It would have subtle effects on our political situation though.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:35 AM

JYNK

Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:

Well argued indeed!

You said everything I wanted to say back.

Just a note about Jayne. I think Jayne made a decision to follow Mal after Ariel. That convinced him Mal was worthy of his loyalty. And by asking him not to tell the others he gave away his feeling of family for them all. Jayne was as roped in as the rest of them to the destiny they all shared on this mission.

FollowMal

They killed Book! Jayne's buddy died because of this mess. Mal aside, Book was who Jayne was closest to. Why wouldn't he go along with them? Also, crew = family. Read the novel version, they explain a lot of the motives for why every character did what they did.

Also, as far as the title on this thread goes, remember what Joss said about "quiet reflection" if you didn't like the movie? That means stfu till it's out of the theatres so that it has a chance to do well. Fans are a blessing and a curse.

-------------------
"Let's move this conversation in a not-Jayne's-fault direction." - Jayne

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 8:36 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Idrawart, where did you work in animation? I used to work at DreamWorks Animation, and the situation you describe sounds very much like the events I witnessed there. (I'm now at Klasky-Csupo.)

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:07 AM

IDRAWART

I was with Disney for 15 years, in EFX. Good for you still in the business, you do traditional or Maya?
I'm working in live action efx ( puppets) at the moment, but it's freelance, no bennies. it's a lot of fun and all the stuff hanging around the studio is cool.
what are you on.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:18 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

I was a production supervisor at DW (APM, in Disney terms!), and now produce commercials for Klasky. We do a little of everything - 2d, CG, live-action, stop-motion. I'm freelance as well, but it is pretty steady. What are you doing puppets for?

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:26 AM

IDRAWART

I work with feathers and fur, doing animal puppets that they use for commercials. I did a rabbit for a fast food chain, refurbished the wings used in constantine, got to work on set with a pair of giant white wings recently. And I do a famous bird puppet that you see quite often in commercials.

I live the sky when it's just after sunset, that deep velvet blue.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:38 AM

IDRAWART

what did you work on at dreamworks?

I live the sky when it's just after sunset, that deep velvet blue.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 9:50 AM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

Road to el Dorado, Spirit, and Sinbad. After Sinbad, I got fed up with working insane hours for low pay, so I left. Best decision I ever made!

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:04 AM

IDRAWART

you know Max Howard from Sprirt? I have friends that worked on Raod, I liked it, and I liked Sinbad. thought the voice choices were off tho. yea the hours were not fun. on fantasia 2000 they were 11 hour days. but in live action that is the way, 10-12 hour days. you have to be freelance there, so you can sleep inbetween jobs!

I live the sky when it's just after sunset, that deep velvet blue.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:14 AM

FLYINGTAMS

Quote:
Originally posted by ndrage85:
there are some things that had to be changed between characters to bring it to the big screen. if Joss hadn't, he would have been alienating the potential audience who aren't familiar with Firefly

I don't buy that - its just a lame excuse.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:40 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I don't like the standard explanation because I think it defies physics. I'm fairly certain that two planes flying into the world trade centers would not cause them to collapse. This explanation would need bombs on planes, or bombs in buildings, placed there by al qaeda, for me to buy it.

This is way off topic and I probably shouldn't propagate it further, but you're quite wrong about this.

The impact of the collisions didn't bring the buildings down. They weakened the structure and blew off the fire retardant that helped protect the beams. It was thousands of tons of burning jet fuel that completed the process, softening the steel and causing failure of the floor trusses that tied the columns to the core. That allowed the columns to buckle. After that, it was a classic case of "progressive failure", with the momentum of the falling upper stories collapsing each subsequent lower floor.

No bombs, no conspiracy, no mysteries. Most definitely, no new Physics. Just some twisted and soulless people redefining the concept of evil for the modern world.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't about you, Jayne. It's about what they need.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 10:58 AM

TORTIMER

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
I'm not at all sure that OBL had anything to do with 9/11. He claimed credit for it 3 years later.

I'm also sorry about even responding about this but I can't let this false statement go without a response. OBL claimed credit within a few months after 9/11 not 3 years. There is also a tape that had OBL and a couple other terrorist listening to a radio broadcast just after the first plane hit the first tower. The other terrorist were really happy but OBL told them to wait there will be more. Of coarse OBL was the mastermind and/or money behind 9/11.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:01 AM

CRUSADER

Could Wash's death have more to do with Alan Tuydk's growing film career and his likely unavailability to return to television in the event of a resurrection?

Dissappointed? An understatement. He was my favorite character. But he is a gifted comic/actor and brings a unique blend of his own comedy to all his work, and may have a future in film.

Perhaps this was merely business. Despite Tuydk's loyalty to and love of the show, he still needs to think about his future.

With Book, I'm not sure this was the case.

Your thoughts?

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:03 AM

CRUSADER

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:13 AM

JAIF

A lot of people replied with good points, I want to offer/stress two of them.

1) Wash's death heightened the seriousness of the situation for me. I was scared that they were going to kill off Kaylee and the Doc towards the end there, and I wasn't certain that River would live either. All bets were off in my mind.

I said all of that in the first person on-purpose; I don't need to go into the mind of Joss or any such nonsense. I watched the movie and that's the effect it had on me. My guess is that too many people over-analyze movies rather than just watch them.

2) Go re-watch the series and pay attention to Jayne every time Reavers are mentioned. He's terrified of them, along with being highly superstitious by nature. The impression I got is that he's quite comfortable with acting differently when faced with Reavers. Yes, that's inconsistant behavior, but every one of us is built that way.

-Jeff

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 1:37 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Grounded ... thank you soooo much for an extremely long answer to all of Jusl89's points (i'm not being sarcastic). I disagreed sooo much with Jusl89's points, and i felt the need to write that long response you wrote. Thank you for saving me the time. I do, however, have some things to add to your post:

1. Totally agree with you on this one, Grounded. There is nothing artificial about the increase in tension. But if the only reason for Wash's death was to increase tension, i would have been very dissappointed with Joss. There was another reason for Wash's death however - Wash died because sometimes people die for no reason. It amplified the reality of the situation and was probably setting things in motion for the next movie. That doesn't mean i like it. On the contrary, i was crushed when i saw Wash speared. And I'd still like to see Wash come back in the next movie - not anything corny, mind you, but something good. I'm in favor of Wash coming back as a ghost (he never got to say good bye to Zoe and can't leave Serenity). If you've ever seen the way Joss does ghosts, you'll agree it won't be a stupid stunt. Here's the twist though - only River can see him (she's phsycic and can sense feelings and stuff - why couldn't she sense ghosts? Especially because we saw on Miranda that River could sense all of the dead people in her head).

Quote:

Originally posted by Jusl89:
I can't imagine Firefly without Wash. He was a great part of the heart and soul of the series, and without him, there is no Firefly. There was no reason for him to die, and even the way he died was ridiculous. Wash's death prevented me from enjoying the ending of the movie.

I'd suggest watching the movie again, Jusl89. I was vastly shocked, disappointed, sad, and mad with the movie the first time I saw it, but the next time, I wasn't jolted out of it so much when Wash died and enjoyed the great ending of the movie.
If anyone would like more info and discussion on Wash's death, click on this link: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372

2. Totally agree with you there!!! Months have passed between the end of Firefly and the beginning of the film, and it would be pretty ridiculous to assume everyone went into stasis at the end of Firefly and all relationships are exactly as they were when the series ended.

3.

Quote:
Of course Book died for a reason - the crew needed to experience that horror to push them on towards Miranda. Having said that, I think the manner of his death could have been vastly improved. The 'deliver vital message with last breath' thing is a bit tired.

Exactly, and stop taking my words!!! The last thing Book said to Mal was to "do whatever River says to." Earlier on, he says that Mal has to believe. What he means by that is that the only way to beat the operative is to truly believe in what he is doing. Book's last words makes him do this. I don't think that the manner of his death was bad though.

4.

Quote:
Serenity is a sci-fi action movie. Joss would never have been able to sell Objects In Space 2, as cool as that might have been. Action movies need action, and, though I do partially agree with the point about River's fights, I think all the other action sequences were both well paced and well executed, given budget constraints. I don't think I've ever tire of that space battle. Mal knew to freeze up because he knew that the nerve cluster was there. How did he know? Because, as he said, he'd had it removed following some war wound or other.

Again, exactly what I was going to say!!! and i also agree with the point about river's fight at the end, but i was fine with her other fights (i mean, her brain was messed with so she could become a super assasin).

5.

Quote:

Firstly, letting the Operative see how deeply unfounded his belief is is a far crueler punishment than killing him. Secondly, if Mal kills the Operative, who's going to call the troops off?

Yup, exactly.

6

Quote:

Originally written by Grounded:
Quote:

Originally posted by Jusl89:
6. Jayne would not agree to go on a philanthropic "save the world" mission. This was way out of character. He didn't even ask what the payoff would be.
It's only out of character if you grossly simplify Jayne's character. Yes he cares about money. Yes he cares about himself. But has he ever been in this kind of situation before? When a character does something you might not expect but is still logical given what's happened to them that's called character development.

Exactly. Jayne does have levels you know. Remember when he got his fuzzy hat from his mom with the letter and stuff. And he sends some of his money to his mom. There are other examples that i don't have time to mention right now, but Jayne does have levels.

7.

Quote:
the secret at the end is not so much the creation of the Reavers that matters as it is the cover up of planetary genocide.

Exactly.

8. I personally loved the ending!!!

9.

Quote:

written by Browncoat1:
Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
I didn't get the bow and arrow either, and it was a shame she didn't get much attention. Having said that, I'm not sure how Joss could have worked her into the story since she doesn't really have a lot to do with it. I'd rather have had her in it than not at all.

I am assuming that the bow Inara used is a weapon that she is very proficient with, hence the reason she chose it over a firearm. Considering the fact that she is a Companion schooled in many arts to move in the social circles of the Core planets it stands to reason that archery might still be hobby of the wealthy or elite. A bow in my thinking is a more graceful weapon & one I could see someone of Inara's grace preferring to a handgun.

you took the words right out of my mouth, browncoat1!!! And Grounded, there were a lot more scenes with Inara that were cut out. Hopefully we'll get those on the DVD.

Overall, I loved this movie and i think that it was kind of immature for Jusl89 to say

Quote:
In my mind, Serenity never happened.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest In Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:12 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:

Crusader wrote:
Could Wash's death have more to do with Alan Tuydk's growing film career and his likely unavailability to return to television in the event of a resurrection?

Dissappointed? An understatement. He was my favorite character. But he is a gifted comic/actor and brings a unique blend of his own comedy to all his work, and may have a future in film.

Perhaps this was merely business. Despite Tuydk's loyalty to and love of the show, he still needs to think about his future.

With Book, I'm not sure this was the case.

Your thoughts?

Okay, I want to clear this up. A lot of people have been saying, "Alan Tuydk is not going to be back for the next two movies. He's going into a career in movies and will not have time to do anything having to do with Firefly." That's not true. Alan Tuydk has been in movies before ("I, Robot", "Dodgeball", "A Knight's Tale" and "28 Days") and he, like the other cast members, is signed on for all three movies.

Book's story will still be told. Joss promised that to Ron Glass when he started the movie.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

Wash, you were the best gorram pilot in the verse. Rest In Peace (and then come back again!!!)

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:40 PM

SUNSHINE

I don't know too many movies made from tv series where the characters are identical to their tv characters. I kinda wondered why in star trek tng movies, their uniforms aren't always the same as those in the series.
I too am heartbroken that Wash is dead but i saw the movie first before the episodes so i just look at it as though wash is still alive and never will die, movie or no movie.

*sigh*.... still trying to get over the reality that firefly is over.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:00 PM

FOLLOWMAL

I agree with you Jynk about "quiet reflection", I loved the movie and wouldn't/couldn't say anything against Joss.

I went back and watched the last three episodes and realized you were right about Book and Jayne, they got pretty close. So Jayne was certainly motivated by Book's death.

I've ordered the novel version and am awaiting it with bated breath! Can't wait to read it.

FollowMal

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:13 PM

SERGEANTX

Random thoughts:

Gawd I miss Firefly.

My friend summed it up perfectly. "Serenity was a pretty good movie, but a sorry follow up the best science fiction series ever."

HK has covered my point of view perfectly, as he usually does.

I had hopes that Serenity might be able to re-spark the Firefly magic, but instead it's just reinforced my perception of how much we've lost.

Gawd I miss Firefly.

I should have seen it coming. I saw it coming. But hope took over. I'd like to say I'm not surprised, but I really thought Joss could pull it off. Perhaps everything is destined to be swallowed up by mainstream mediocrity, but it sure hurts to see it happen sometimes.

Gawd I miss Firefly.

EVERYONE HERE WHO DIDN'T LIVE THROUGH THE CANCELLATION NEEDS TO READ THE FOLLOWING:
http://www.keithmpire.com/nonfiction/firefly/

I remember weeping the first time I read this, swearing to myself the pronouncement was premature. But Firefly wasn't the action-packed mediocrity that mainstream America craves. Its destiny was pre-ordained.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:24 PM

JARON95

Frankly, your opinion sucks, Serenity DID happen, and it did NOT suck.

How do you like them apples?

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 3:55 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

I should have seen it coming. I saw it coming. But hope took over. I'd like to say I'm not surprised, but I really thought Joss could pull it off. Perhaps everything is destined to be swallowed up by mainstream mediocrity, but it sure hurts to see it happen sometimes.

Here's the thing to everyone expressing views like this: this is your opinion. In my book, Serenity was an immensely awesome movie; my favorite, in fact, of all time (biased slightly, of course, by its affiliation to my favorite show). I went in to the theaters with high expectations; I left satisfied, though shocked by the two deaths. I had a much lower opinion of the movie at that point than I do now; I urge you all to see it again, if you haven't. The second time, I enjoyed it much more.

I loved this movie. So if you wanna say you didn't like it, that's fine; to say that it sucked, though, or even was mediocre, that's okay too, I guess - just remember that there's many millions of people who disagree with you.

-Steve

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:11 PM

SERGEANTX

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:
I loved this movie. So if you wanna say you didn't like it, that's fine; to say that it sucked, though, or even was mediocre, that's okay too, I guess - just remember that there's many millions of people who disagree with you.

-Steve

Fair enough. I can't say it 'sucked'. In fact it was better than most big-budget Hollywood action movies. But here's the deal -

Firefly was a very unique and special experience. It called out to those of us fed up with the usual mediocrity. Speaking personally, it helped reassure me that there are others out there who appreciate real art. Firefly told stories that respected the intelligence and maturity of its audience. It challenged convention and showed that there could be something to a science fiction series besides monster aliens and starship battles.

It hurts to see it swallowed up and regurgitated into just another action movie.

My hope is that Joss can look back at the series and realize that the very reasons it 'failed' financially were the ones that made it such a spectacular success artistically. My guess is, he already knows this. Perhaps he hoped he could make a big hollywood action movie that would be successful enough to save the franchise. Maybe the plan was to get buy-in and then revert to some decent storytelling. I'm certainly hoping that still happens.

But the problem is, you can't have it both ways. There's still enough of Firefly in Serenity to make it unpallateable to the Ahnold fans, but not enough moving art to save it for those who found the series such a unique jewel.

Most of the people I've befriended amongst the Browncoats watch very little TV. For us, its generally a waste of time. It doesn't entertain us and it doesn't represent us. Firefly did both. I can't help but feel that Serenity has left us behind in its attempt to reach the mainstream movie crowd. That sucks because those folks have their entertainment already.

In the past, Joss has taken care of the rest of us. I hope he'll get back to doing that soon.

EDIT: to add, I've seen the movie three times now, and while I did find a few more things to like about it, it still just doesn't hold my attention the way the series did.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:17 PM

LADYBLUE

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:

I went in to the theaters with high expectations; I left satisfied, though shocked by the two deaths. I had a much lower opinion of the movie at that point than I do now; I urge you all to see it again, if you haven't. The second time, I enjoyed it much more.
-Steve

Saw it twice Steve, did not get any better for me the second time around.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 4:52 PM

STAKETHELURK

Thought I’d address one of HK’s points. I never got around to responding to his nig post in one of the other threads, but he’s making some of the same arguments here so I’ll try and address them.

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
The huge problem with the "increase in tention" caused by Wash's death is that even the people who defend Joss's decision were taken out of the story by that event! Everyone is suddenly thrust into a meta-narrative of WWJD (what would Joss do?). We're not thinking about how our BDH's are going to deal with a specific problem in the story, we're thinking about how they're gonna deal with Joss Almighty. Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care. If he told a better story we'd all be thinking about what's happening to the characters in character terms, not hardcore fan terms. It's a huge error in judgement and a betrayal of the powerful sense of reality the show so effortlessly gave us week after week.

First off, you seem to be stating opinion as fact, which tends to get folks with differing opinions riled up. Might want to look to that; these discussions can get pretty ugly when tempers flare.

Now, the meta-narrative. I’m sorry you were taken out of the story by Wash’s death. I was not thrust into a “WWJD” mindset when I saw that, so you do not speak for me. I was not thinking “Will Joss actually kill them off?” after Wash’s death, I was thinking “Jesus! This is serious! They might not make it.” Joss was nowhere in my thought processes at that moment, just fear, adrenaline and a deep identification with the characters. In retrospect I am able to recognize the device that caused me to feel those emotions, but at the time I was not thinking “Wow, Whedon’s decision to kill of Wash has really heightened the tension in the final section of the movie.” If you were, I am sorry for you. But the goal of any film technique is to be invisible, to keep the audience from pausing to analyze it. Just because someone brings it up after the fact does not mean that they were pulled into some kind of meta-narrative state by the technique, it just means that they can recognize after the fact that such a technique was used and thus understand their response better.

I would also argue that such a technique actually brings us closer to the characters rather than jarring them out of a story. In television, you now that the cast is going to be back next week--it creates a sense of distance between you and the characters. Captain Picard may feel his life is in danger, but we all know he’ll be back on the Enterprise next week, so our emotions do not match those of the characters. Something similar happens in formula action movies; all the heroes usually survive while maybe a few sympathetic second tier characters get it. With Serenity, the Browncoats go in with the emotional distance of the TV show and the regular audiences go in with the emotional distance of formula action. Joss has always felt that distance between the characters and the audience is bad; when he puts people in danger, he wants you to feel they’re in danger (the characters certainly don’t know they’ll be back next week or in the next film), he wants you to feel what they’re going through. That is realism, emotional realism. And after Wash got it, I was right there with the characters: terrified, excited, saddened, totally unsure of what would happen next. For me, just like for them, the outcome was totally up in the air. I wasn’t worrying about Joss, Joss didn’t even exist for me any more. I was worried about Mal, and Jayne, and Zoe, and Simon, and Inara, and Kaylee, and River--just like they were. So, don’t tell me that Wash’s death distanced me from these characters, that it took me out of the story--because it sucked me in more. It removed the last bit of emotional distance between me and them and for that short while I was right there with them. Didn’t work for you? Sorry about that. But just because you couldn’t experience it (again, sorry) don’t immediately claim that it doesn’t work *period* or that nobody else experienced it.

Now, the next point: “Aesthetically, killing Wash is nothing but a power trip, and only those of us who are obsessed with Joss's power (the hardcore fans) care.”

Only the hardcore fans care? I think you’re seriously underestimating the appeal of Wash. I have been to seven different showing, all after the film hit theaters, all in which Browncoats were a minority in the audience, and every single time the *entire* audience has audibly gasped in shock and horror at Wash’s death. Everyone in those seven showings cared about Wash by that point in the film. Just like they cared about everyone else on that ship. Why? Because the actors, and the writing, is just that damned good (from where I’m standing--and it’s pretty nice over here). The mass audience had grouped Wash with the rest of the crew; relatively untouchable. He was one of the heroes, not some second tier character to them. And his death affected everybody in those seven showings. Did it affect Browncoats more? Well, duh. But were the Browncoats the only ones who cared? Hell no, from what I’ve seen. So please don’t talk about the fans being the only ones who are affected by the film; Whedon wrote it to be accessible to the public--and from what I’ve seen, it is. And being accessible to the public means getting people to care about the Big Damn Heroes in less than two hours, which is a feat Joss seems to have accomplished from the seven showings I saw. So this “Joss did stuff only the fans would care about and he screwed it up” claim doesn’t seem to make much sense from where I’m standing. I don’t mind that you didn’t care for the movie (really sorry about that, too), but some of your arguments just don’t make sense from what I’ve seen and experienced.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 5:12 PM

FRUNK

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Random thoughts:

Gawd I miss Firefly.

My friend summed it up perfectly. "Serenity was a pretty good movie, but a sorry follow up the best science fiction series ever."

HK has covered my point of view perfectly, as he usually does.

I had hopes that Serenity might be able to re-spark the Firefly magic, but instead it's just reinforced my perception of how much we've lost.

Gawd I miss Firefly.

I should have seen it coming. I saw it coming. But hope took over. I'd like to say I'm not surprised, but I really thought Joss could pull it off. Perhaps everything is destined to be swallowed up by mainstream mediocrity, but it sure hurts to see it happen sometimes.

Gawd I miss Firefly.

EVERYONE HERE WHO DIDN'T LIVE THROUGH THE CANCELLATION NEEDS TO READ THE FOLLOWING:
http://www.keithmpire.com/nonfiction/firefly/

I remember weeping the first time I read this, swearing to myself the pronouncement was premature. But Firefly wasn't the action-packed mediocrity that mainstream America craves. Its destiny was pre-ordained.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

I lived through the cancellation, I got a Tivo box specifically to record Firefly on Friday nights, I loved the show, I kept eps on my Tivo until the dvd came out, and I've arrived at a completely different conclusion.

I'm fairly certain no movie that had any reasonable chance of being made would have kept you happy. The medium is different, you can't tell the stories in a movie the same as with a tv series. A movie (particularly the first of hopefully many sequels) has to be self contained and explain itself. A tv show can let big question marks hang in an episode, knowing that they'll be back the following week (or year) to explain them. A tv show has the time to explore in depth each character in a 9 person cast.

That might mean the world of Firefly is dead to you unless it comes in the episodic format of tv. My enjoyment of the show and the movie is broader than that, I can recognize the differences and the similarities and glory in both.

If you think Serenity is just another action movie look again. It twists many of the conventions of an action movie just like Firefly twisted the conventions of tv. It has all the same emotional elements, love, humor, surprise, terror, anguish, action and others. The balance is different, but the quality isn't.

If Firefly is dead, long may its child live.

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:13 PM

LIMINALOSITY

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:
1. Totally agree with you on this one, Grounded. There is nothing artificial about the increase in tension. But if the only reason for Wash's death was to increase tension, i would have been very dissappointed with Joss. There was another reason for Wash's death however - Wash died because sometimes people die for no reason. It amplified the reality of the situation and was probably setting things in motion for the next movie. That doesn't mean i like it. On the contrary, i was crushed when i saw Wash speared. And I'd still like to see Wash come back in the next movie - not anything corny, mind you, but something good.

I'd suggest watching the movie again, Jusl89. I was vastly shocked, disappointed, sad, and mad with the movie the first time I saw it, but the next time, I wasn't jolted out of it so much when Wash died and enjoyed the great ending of the movie.
If anyone would like more info and discussion on Wash's death, click on this link: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372

Engine - thanks so much for your thoughts, and for the link to a really good Wash thread. I have been avoiding the 'hated it' threads since the first couple days when I got into a couple of poisonous threads and I just wasn't interested in any negative opinions at that point.
I just went to read the Wash thread, and realized you were all there, in a good way: Tinman, Biglion, Scarecrow, Dorothy, funnycoloredhorse, all you people whose opinions I really look forward to reading. Anyway. Thanks for the link, bigfloatingballonangel.

Also! Thanks for the line Book burbles at the (his) end "Do whatever River says" dang, I have been trying hard to hear that one. Thanks.

I also suggest as strongly as possible without actually
shouting
that anyone who didn't like it the first time go see it again, and bring people who aren't already fans. My appreciation has been greatly enhanced by viewings with non-coats (actually that should be newcoats, because they are all Brownies now!) Seeing the fire of passion ignite in a newbie's eyes is a uniquely wonderful thing.

Along that same line of thought (bringing newbies) It's easy for us to lose perspective on all of this when we love FF so much and most of us waited a long time for the BDresurrection. That gives a fan plenty of time to make stuff up in her/is own head about what they'd like to see happen. Serious danger zone, that.

Just when this thread was getting a little intense
Idrawart and Spike&jezebel hijak it for some animated comic relief.

Then Spike&Jez, Dream t, DonC, Tortimer and, have I missed anyone?
hijack it somemore for a little OBL/CIA/911 rant (and no one mentioned Carl Rove?), which isn't really a hijack, since there are some pretty strong parallels, echos and reflections between the two empires. By the way, I -totally- agree with DonC's "progressive failure" asessment of the towers' tumbles. That was one bloody hot 500 mph fireball.

Idrawart (on Mal trusting Jayne)- did you notice the line Jayne had in the millionth argument about the Tam's continued presence (in the crew lounge) where Jayne quietly says "No reward, huh?" Cracks me up every time.

SergeantX, thanks for the link to the original fan's lament and musings on cancellation. Beaut. He writes:
"It's a whole lot easier to keep your eyes steady on the horizon when you know there's somebody else seeing that same horizon with you."
Yes, indeed and so say all of us. Hopefully, the author's here somewhere, with horizons vasty and sunsets glorious.

Beauty beauty, great thread, guys!

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Wednesday, October 19, 2005 6:16 PM

RIVER6213

I loved the movie with all of my heart!

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