GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Tim Minear reveals another unfilmed FF episode

POSTED BY: BLINKER
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 21:31
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Sunday, November 20, 2005 7:34 AM

SADLITTLEKING


Quote:
Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
I think that some of the people who dislike the episode idea are assuming that the situation is resolved at the end of the episode. That's the way it works in most tv shows, a character goes through an extremely traumatic experience in one episode, recovers completely in the next episode, and the traumatic experience is never mentioned again or maybe it's just sort of alluded to but doesn't affect the story. I do not believe that the Firefly writers would have done that. Inara’s recovery would have probably taken place over an entire season and even then she won’t recover completely.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam


I wonder if Inara would ever be able to be a Companion again after something so traumatic. She may not be puritanical about sex, but she's not open to anyone just violating her, especially in the way Reavers would. How long would that nightmare stay with her? The moment a man (other than Mal) touches her, would she instinctively pull away? And if she ever recovers to the point where that doesn't happen, how long would it take? Or would she stop trying to be beautiful -- wearing glamorous outfits and make-up and having perfect hair. Would she try to scar herself physically so that men wouldn't find her attractive? It really would bring up a lot of questions that, like you said, couldn't be resolved in a few episodes. It would take a long time. There are many possibilities to the direction Inara's character could go, whether up (making her stonger) or down (pushing her toward darkness).

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Sunday, November 20, 2005 8:51 AM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


AgentRouka said:

"And it's not like Joss has never failed. It's not a fan's duty to love everything. Personally, I think Atherton Wing and Rance Burgess were both pretty boring cardboard villains, and the hill folk of religious mania were also not exactly a revolutionary breakthrough in story telling.

They did serve to forward plot and say something about the other characters but by themselves they were pretty flat, one-dimensional. The reaver rape idea might have turned out no worse or better than that. Saying something profound about the core characters by less than brilliant means.

Doesn't mean someone who thinks the idea silly doesn't understand the nature of the series or posts "I hate Joss Whedon, you ruined the show!" in every board...
It's just a case of differing tastes. "


Actually, despite the things I said before, I agree with you, although I didn't say anything about people posting that they hate Joss Whedon on every board. I'm not blindly defending Joss, just to be clear; I'm defending him on a very particular point, which is his track record in regards to creating and executing Firefly. And I guess I'm sort of speaking up for anyone on the creative side of the fence - the people who actually put their creative efforts out there for people to like or dislike. It takes a lot of guts for anyone to do that. However...

No one is above failure or reproach. We, of course, should expect them to try and be at their best at all times, but we should know as well that they are never perfect and will never be able to hit a home run with all fans. Like I mentioned before, this goes for all creative types. And this is exactly why they should do things for themselves, not fans. You make what you want to see, that way you are true to your own vision; and that keeps a project "pure" in a way.

Firefly is by no means perfect, and the desire to analyse even this tiny plot snippet to death is a natural reaction. It can even be fun. I get it, I do, but I guess there's something inside of me that sees another side as well. I just hear people being so skeptical these days. On the one hand I get it, 'cause there's so much crap out there that deserves our scorn, but on the other hand why not just focus on the good? Why waste time with the bad? It seems like a waste of energy to me.

And if someone thinks they could do something better, then do it! Don't talk about it, do it. I'd be the first in line to watch/read it. Seriously. Not Firefly, of course, but something of your own. I'm willing and wanting to support quality entertainment. (And before any asks if I put my money where my mouth is, yes I do. It's what I do for a living. And amoung all the other things I'm working on, I'm slowly but surely producing my own graphic novel that I'm sure one day I'll ask Firefly fans to read - then I'll be the one out there under the scrutiny. Heck, maybe that's why I'm so sensative to all of this.)

So anyway, even though Firefly has it's less than perfect secondary characters or plots, it's those main characters and their charm that makes the show such a success. It's strengths far outweigh it's faults and that's pretty rare these days. So all I was saying before was that in the case of Firefly I think Joss has a damned near perfect track record and therefore deserves some benefit of doubt in this case.

Now how the hell did I get on my soapbox again. Sorry about that. I'm shutting up now.


"I don't wanna explode."

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Sunday, November 20, 2005 10:06 AM

XEROGRAVITY


Yuck.

It's amazing to me. People comparing this potential episode to the gratuitous rape ep from the new Battlestar Galactica (the most desperate attempt to revive a boring show ever). BSG's rape scene was all about trying to save a show that is boring the audience to death with ugly drama. The way it would have been done in FF would have made people think.

So much very thought provoking reflection on a twist in the plot line that will never be. Whedon and Minnear love to approach the unapproachable in their storylines which is what makes them great. It also makes their show cancelled before it ever gets out of the gate.

The minute they had Early (a black dude) threaten to rape Kaylee (the happy-go-lucky cutesy white dimwit mechanic chick), the show got a nuclear-bomb torpedo right across the hull. Hell... that ep never even made it onto the screen. It only lives on in the world of DVDs.

Nothing to do with the quality of the storytelling. It's the impact it would have had on people. All politics.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:18 PM

SADLITTLEKING


Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Yuck.

It's amazing to me. People comparing this potential episode to the gratuitous rape ep from the new Battlestar Galactica (the most desperate attempt to revive a boring show ever). BSG's rape scene was all about trying to save a show that is boring the audience to death with ugly drama. The way it would have been done in FF would have made people think.


I respect your opinion of BSG, but that plot point wasn't done out of some imaginary desperation. As I said before, it does play a role in how Humans and Cylons are perceived. Afterall, up to this point, Humans were portrayed as the victims while the Cylons as the enemy. Now we see an instance in which Humans show a side of themselves that makes you feel for the Cylons. And it brings up the question of whether the Cylons are right in exterminating Humans because they are capable of such horrendous acts. Also, what we've seen with one Battlestar preparing to fight another Battlestar is the divide inherent in human nature. How far is too far? At what point do Humans cease to be civilized and become monsters, maybe moreso than the enemy they're fighting? And at what point do Humans begin to turn on each other because of this?

I'm not knocking your opinion. If you don't like BSG, that's fine. But it is a very deep show, as much as Firefly/Serenity. And that's why I could draw the parallels that I drew. Because they're there.

All that said, I don't want to turn this into a BSG discussion so I'm just gonna leave it at that. Whatever you find boring is up to you. I know people who thought Firefly was boring. But it's not a big deal because I enjoy the show and that's all that matters to me.

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Sunday, November 20, 2005 5:36 PM

DALTONSPENCE


One thing that everyone seems to be ignoring is that this episode was never filmed. This says to me that Joss et al realized it would be a bad idea (for whatever reasons) before it was too late. I could see the basic plot being used if they downgraded Inara's trauma by making her assailants not Reavers, or only a few (not dozens). Reavers (like the Blue Hand guys) are meant to portray the ultimate evil of the kind people are willing to commit suicide to escape, and should only be used sparingly except for watershed events, such as Inara leaving the show for an extended period of healing and counselling at a Companion Guildhouse dedicated to such things. Serenity really only has room for one severely traumatized girl, and putting another "victim" on board would wreck the dramatic balance of the show.

BTW, did anyone else notice how young Inara looked in her last scene in the movie? Makes you wonder how just old she really is under all that Companion sophistication. Could she actually be the same age as River, and what Mal would think if he found out she was?

Dalton "What does the Alliance consider jailbait?" Spence

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Sunday, November 20, 2005 7:23 PM

XEROGRAVITY


No Dalton we're gonna visit this subject.

Hmm Sadlittleking wants to examine the morality of killing "cylons" who exterminate humans off their homeworld and try to chase down the survivors in space as they hurl towards the mythical world of Earth. Their last shot at salvation.

Let's explore the motivation of the enemy. They are cruel and ruthless exterminators of humans ~ half genetically programmed, half computer programmed monsters. Let's give machines souls. Lets take aways the souls of the humans fighting them. It's such great storytelling.

Thank the Greek gods Zeus, Athena, etc. that the 12 tribes can go find the mythical 13th tribe, Earth. But only if they can escape the bio-mechanoid monsters hunting them. Oh wait, they suddenly have emotions, and if they are female men can rape them.

Shame on you naughty men! Thank Zeus we have a female politician from a now-extinct male-dominated society becoming the prophesized messiah of wayward humanity (ah she was secretary of education ~ we can learn from her).

It's not storytelling. It's politics.

If it isn't anything I'm saying, it is at the very least boring storytelling.

Glen Larson, original writer of BSG hates it. Richard Hatch (Apollo from the original BSG) once hated it and was a longtime advocate for the return of the show. They bought his silence by giving him a role on the show (ah a paycheck at last for a hasbeen actor). Larson always hated him and felt he was a parasite (was writing BSG books against Larson's will). And on and on...


Too much to tell. The original BSG was great, but it was basically "Mormons in Space". It was a parable of Mormon theology (cuz Larson is a Mormon). They stripped the soul out of his story, and made it all political. I'm no Mormon. In fact, I'm a godless viking with a little bit of Buddha weirness mixed in. I'm a nothing. But, I know crappy boring TV film when I see it. Weather channel is more thrilling than the new BSG and I've watched it since the beginning.


It's just not even remotely in the same storytelling universe as FF. The rape thing in BSG was just a cheap attempt to get ratings. No depth, no thought-proving basis to it. Just ratings.

I can't even believe I'm having this debate.

XG

This isn't battlestar galactica. if Larson hates it, that should say something.


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Monday, November 21, 2005 5:22 AM

SADLITTLEKING


I get it. You don't like the show. I got that the first time. But as I said, I know people who don't like Firefly and look down on it the same way you look down on BSG. I'm not discussing this anymore. Move on.

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Monday, November 21, 2005 6:35 AM

DEWCREW919


That would have been an interesting episode.

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Monday, November 21, 2005 6:49 AM

ZEEK


Uh....for the record Objects in Space did air. The unaired episodes were Trash, The Message and Heart of Gold.


Now on to this story idea. I agree that it is a very rough idea. Inara even surviving a Reaver abduction is pretty amazing considering the Reaver description. Then having Mal go to save her rather than try to kill her out of mercy is kinda out of character. It might work only because it is Inara and he doesn't think clearly when it comes to her. If anyone else was taken I would think he'd do what he could to destroy the whole Reaver ship and put them out of their misery more than try to rescue them. Plus the Zoe standing guard thing does sound pretty weird. My best guess is they'd have Inara ask Zoe not to let Mal see her because she doesn't want Mal to see her broken. I think with some work it could be a decent episode. It would be traumatic though.

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Monday, November 21, 2005 11:31 AM

NICOLACLARKE


Quote:
Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
How long would that nightmare stay with her? The moment a man (other than Mal) touches her, would she instinctively pull away?


Why do you assume "other than Mal"? Rape destroys intimacy by eradicting trust and equating everything with the psychological legacy of the act(s) - and what is more intimate than a touch from the person you love? If anything, I'd guess that Mal would be the most difficult person for Inara to face - if she ever could.

I have to say I think this sounds like a pretty vile idea. Plus, unintentionally amusing and/or Cronenbergesque (c'mon, a vagina that kills...). The idea that a gang-rape could be a great thing for Mal & Inara's relationship seems a particularly flawed one to me. But then (as others have pointed out), it IS only an outline.

What *would* be good for Mal & Inara's relationship is Mal getting it through his head that he can't separate Inara from her work. She isn't just turning tricks to feed her crack habit (unless that syringe really did contain her drugs ). Being a Companion is her life; it's what she was raised and trained to do, and it's at the centre of her worldview just as much as aiming to misbehave is at the centre of Mal's. He *can't* respect her but not her job, because that's a false dichotomy and (to me) suggests that he loves an idealised figure rather than the real person. Sure she has bad days (like the "Your clock is probably rigged to speed up..." guy from the pilot, or that badly ADR-d guy in 'Shindig'), but they tend to stem from clients who misunderstand or downright abuse the system, not from the system/worldview itself.

Simon's a doctor, Zoe's a soldier, Jayne's a thug, Inara's a Companion. None of these things are hobbies - they shape the way the characters live their lives, the way they interact with others, conceive of their situations, react to their environments. None of these can be dropped because they're inconvenient, they have to be acknowledged and worked around. Witness Zoe and Wash. Wash may not like it that Zoe will almost always follow Mal, or that her role in life takes her into dangerous situations; but he has to accept it, by and large, because that's who he married. Zoe and Wash are capable of compromise (even if it's sometimes achieved through shouting), but at the same time neither of them ever feels they're giving up too much, which is why their relationship works. Perhaps Inara and Mal, for all their obvious need for each other, would never reach that stage because their lives and worldviews are too incompatible.

Likewise, of course, Inara might want to rethink her vocab next time she describes Mal's occupation...

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Monday, November 21, 2005 11:42 AM

SADLITTLEKING


Quote:
Originally posted by NicolaClarke:
Why do you assume "other than Mal"? Rape destroys intimacy by eradicting trust and equating everything with the psychological legacy of the act(s) - and what is more intimate than a touch from the person you love? If anything, I'd guess that Mal would be the most difficult person for Inara to face - if she ever could.


Good point.

I just assumed it cause she seems closer to Mal than any of the other men on the crew. They do share a bond that's based more on friendship and respect than anything else (since they won't let it become anything else). And the whole kissing the hand moment has to work on some level. It doesn't have to be an intimate kiss, just one of support.

But you make an excellent argument as to why it wouldn't work.


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Monday, November 21, 2005 4:28 PM

JUSTBROWSING


Quote:
SadLittleKing wrote:
I just assumed it cause she seems closer to Mal than any of the other men on the crew. They do share a bond that's based more on friendship and respect than anything else (since they won't let it become anything else). And the whole kissing the hand moment has to work on some level. It doesn't have to be an intimate kiss, just one of support.


The sexual and emotional tension between Mal and Inara is palpable, it is clear that they are in love, but have been unwilling to commit.

Consider this scene just after Mal brings Inara back to "Serenity" after the encounter with the Operative.
There has been a dispute with the rest of the crew.
Inara told Mal "This isn't war, Mal." Inara said that Mal had come to the training house looking for a fight. He responded "I came looking for you." Remember he was worried about Inara's safety, and he went to rescue her, despite knowing it was a trap.

INT. CARGO BAY - continuing

Inara tries to catch up to --

INARA
Mal.

MAL
(turning)

I got no answers for you, Inara. I got no rudder. Wind blows northerly, I go north. That's who I am. Maybe that ain't a man to lead but they have to follow so you wanna tear me down do it inside your own mind.

INARA
I'm not trying to tear you down -

MAL
But you fog things up. You always have -- you spin me about. I wish like hell you was elsewhere.

INARA
I was.

That is why Mal asked Inara "Did you really miss this place?
Inara: (rueful smile) Sometimes... Not so much right now.

A beat. he doesn't look at her when he asks:

MAL
Why did you leave?

She does look at him.

INARA
Why didn't you ask me not to?

Dissatisfied, Mal rises.

MAL
I, uh, I'd better go check on the crew. See how the inevitable mutiny is coming along.

They both want to say more. They don't. He goes."

It is the unspoken things between Mal and Inara which keep them apart.

What they both want more than anything is to resolve their relationship, but each of them is too proud to give in.

justbrowsing



"I aim to misbehave." Mal

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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:33 AM

HUITZIL


Is anyone else thinking 'Ninja Scroll' or is it just me?

I'm glad they didn't film it - it's too much. And its out of character for the Reavers.

___________
All guilt is relative. Loyalty counts. And never let your conscience be your guide.

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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 9:12 AM

XEROGRAVITY


Hey Zeek... pat yourself on the back, you get some technical points. Ok so that ep aired and those other 3 didn't. My point remains valid. That kind of storytelling was the stake thru the heart of FF. Whether it aired or didn't is inmaterial to the point I'm trying to make (the show still got torpedoed). And I've never pretended to have been a fan of FF right from the beginning. In these forums, I've always been upfront about the fact that I only just discovered it shortly before the movie came out. I had abandoned SciFi since the cancellations of Farscape, Enterprise, Lexx, etc. I can only stand so much.

Sadlittleking... I agree... a debate on BSG will only sidetrack things, and frankly you wouldn't survive that debate. I've been wishing for the show's return since the 1st season got cancelled, watched the miniseries with great enthusiasm and was horribly disappointed.

I've forced myself to endure the mindcrushing boredom of the series hoping it'll get better. It just never does. It's not battlestar. Hasn't been and never will be. It's been "reimagined"... a repackaged crappy copy that stole the BSG name.

Now, back on topic...

...the episode that will never be from the show that should have been...

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Tuesday, November 22, 2005 10:58 AM

PINGJING


Quote:
Originally posted by huitzil:
Is anyone else thinking 'Ninja Scroll' or is it just me?


Yes! That's the first thing that came to my mind. How did that movie end, anyway?

Unfortunately, the whole storyline seems to be in the same line of thought that Jacqui was talking about, vagina dentata, a sexy female is dangerous and ends up beaten and abused. It's very much like the misogynism in 19th century French novels. Forget about character development - whether it's sixty or six Reavers, it would practically kill a person to go through that. I can't tell you how squicked I am by the thought of it.

That said, I'm not entirely against pitting Inara against Reavers, because I would love to see how tough she is. She'd think of some way out.

Julia

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:58 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I have not read the whole thread, so this might have already been mentioned.

Someone called the idea of Inara having an anti-rape injection unrealistic. That seems like the most realistic element in the suggestion to me.

Think about what a companion is, and what she symbolizes, then think about the most likely violent crime to be inflicted upon one.

Being a companion is like hanging a sign on yourself saying, "Rape me." Obviously most are in protected places where there is little risk of such a thing, but eve so the idea that they would go out without some kind of defense is absurd.

A gun is nice, but it isn’t always good enough. If she just doesn’t want to be raped a cyanide pill would do the trick, but if she takes one she’s lost even though she might have gotten away unscathed if she had simply fought. An injection before the fight that does not kill her makes sense. Unlike a normal weapon it ensures that even if she loses the attacker will not win, and unlike cyanide or similar methods it won’t prevent her from winning.

Just as important would be knowledge, even rumored, of the injection.

There have been instances in the past, none of which I can call to mind (sorry), where a group of women believed to be the best in bed were also believed to be able to kill a man who forced sex upon her. These beliefs protected the women. A reality would protect them more.

-

As for getting only Inara, she does have the shuttle of hers. That is not always connected to the ship, by virtue of being a shuttle.

-

Someone said that it was bad that Mal treated her more nicely afterwards, but I really have trouble seeing that. The thing that is most clear (clear meaning, "painfully, blatantly and repeatedly obvious") about their relationship is that Mal is against the prestige surrounding Inara's work. He calls her a whore, yes, but that is about Inara's job (and position) and describing it without any of the illusions that have been built up around it. He’s always shown that he respects Inara herself.

We are given no details of the fight in the beginning, but just from the hand kissing thing it would seem to be about her job. In the end the job is not a factor, all else has been forcibly stripped away and she is simply Inara, so he is dealing with her person.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:12 AM

EMERALDEAD


Inara can't be that young. To have gone through a full training, be friends with Nandi, support Unification, and establish such a widespread client base means she's at least beyond early adulthood (our version of late 20s).

I personally find the plot-skeleton very implausible. Mal never insults or looks down on Inara as a person, only vents his frustration with her interactions and profession.

I find the idea that Reavers would get to her and still somehow be alive completely off the wall. She may have some combat training but she's no River...or even Jayne.

I find the idea that some drug would kill anyone who had sex with her extremely far-fetched and not at all a viable weapon for a Companion to be given in such a circumstance.

I find the idea that Zoe would stand up to Mal so blatantly and openly over this on the highly unlikely end of things. What reason would she have for that? Just because he insulted Inara?

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:26 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
An injection before the fight that does not kill her makes sense. Unlike a normal weapon it ensures that even if she loses the attacker will not win, and unlike cyanide or similar methods it won’t prevent her from winning.


But how realistic is it that someone who is suddenly attacked has the time and leisure to inject themselves?

The attacker could knock her unconscious before she ever gets to the little wooden box. Plus, the needle in her box is consists of two separate parts, suggesting that she'd have to do at least a minimal amount of fiddling before she could shoot it up into her body.

It's a completely inefficient weapon, unless in an unpreventable yet expected attack, such as the Reavers, which is decidedly not the norm, and certainly not for the average Companion who dwells on a core planet.

And obviously, she can't inject the stuff before a regular client meeting. Killing them is bad for business.


Quote:

He calls her a whore, yes, but that is about Inara's job (and position) and describing it without any of the illusions that have been built up around it. He’s always shown that he respects Inara herself.


I did concede that point later in that discussion, btw.

However, it stands to question how much his respect of her is worth when he keeps trying to shame her for her life choices.

Trust me, I ship Mal and Inara like the next fangirl, and personally I have no trouble believing that he does respect her, but the way it is sometimes put onto screen should hold up to that kind of questioning. :)

Mal may respect her, but he treats her disrespectcully regardless. That is takes this sort of attack for him to step off his judgmental high horse does not reflect very well on him, nor do I find it a particularly original idea that seeing her weak helps him develop a kinder attitude than, say, seeing her strong.


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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:40 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
I find the idea that Zoe would stand up to Mal so blatantly and openly over this on the highly unlikely end of things. What reason would she have for that? Just because he insulted Inara?


Well, Mal does tend to get emotional. And even when he wants to be kind, his words don't always come out well, and some kind of fumbled apology or whatever he MIGHT say could seriously upset a shaky, traumatized Inara.

In her state, just seeing the man who keeps calling her a whore might hurt her.

I think Zoe's motivation there would be to protect Inara from anything that might irrationally upset her. Mal could certainly do that without meaning to.

So Zoe would prefer for Mal to stay out. She has never had trouble telling him when he goes too far, mostly by glaring, or leaving him behind with Jayne in "Shindig". This would be no different. :)

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:56 AM

EMERALDEAD


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
So Zoe would prefer for Mal to stay out. She has never had trouble telling him when he goes too far, mostly by glaring, or leaving him behind with Jayne in "Shindig". This would be no different. :)

Actually Zoe works very hard NOT to tell him when he goes too far and is very cautious and apologetic when she does step towards that line (ie making the decision to come back in Out of Gas and in other places). She only makes suggestions and questions to Mal.

The act in Shindig was a very PASSIVE act, simply letting him know she was miffed.

I can't see her blatantly standing up and saying flat out no to her captain/sergeant over this. She's never felt a protector of Inara and I can't see why she would think Mal would harm her. He's the captain, if things need to be done, he needs to see them.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:20 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
Actually Zoe works very hard NOT to tell him when he goes too far and is very cautious and apologetic when she does step towards that line (ie making the decision to come back in Out of Gas and in other places). She only makes suggestions and questions to Mal.


Actually, I think the apology in "Out of Gas" was kindly sarcastic, judging by her smile and the tone of her voice.

It's true, Zoe doesn't often directly confront Mal, but when she chooses to, she doesn't have to be overt about it. She glares let's him know she disagrees and that's all it takes. It's an explicit warning.

We haven't yet seen a situation where she would outright disagree with Mal's chosen course. That doesn't mean she wouldn't put up a fight if she truly disagreed with him.

Besides, the scene is described as this:

"Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand."

This version is exactly in keeping with Zoe's M.O.

"Later, in Inara's shuttle, it's only Zoe there, guarding her silently. Mal tried to come in, and Zoe opens a can of whup ass and tells Mal no fucking way is anyone coming in."

This might just be hyperbole. Otherwise, it could also be the first time Zoe directly confronts him harshly. Not an unconceivable thing.

Besides, he does end up getting into the shuttle. That, too, would be in keeping with their characters.


Quote:

She's never felt a protector of Inara and I can't see why she would think Mal would harm her. He's the captain, if things need to be done, he needs to see them.


But there wouldn't exactly be anything he'd need to do in Inara's shuttle when she's "curled up and post-traumatic". I can't think of a Captain-y thing he could do there that would be for Inara's benefit.

This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman. Making sure she is not alone and also keeping out further stress.

Who beside Zoe would be up for it, really?

I doubt she'd think Mal would want to harm her. But he could easily upset her without wanting to. Zoe knows that. So she tell him he should stay out.

I don't understand what would be so out of character about that.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 10:34 AM

EMERALDEAD


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Besides, the scene is described as this:

"Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand."

This version is exactly in keeping with Zoe's M.O.

Ahh yes I agree. That version makes perfect sense.

Of ALL the plot ideas given, this is the only one I see likely or plausible.

I just don't see Joss putting Inara in that situation, whether it's Reavers or normal people. It would completely degrade the strength and character of Inara that has been built up (mostly in Shindig) about being able to do her business in her field as well as Mal does in his.

Quote:
This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman.

Ugh no!!!! Way too stereotypical and trite! I can see Simon doing this more than Zoe.

Anyway, who better but Zoe to know that Inara needs no protection from Mal?

Quote:
Who beside Zoe would be up for it, really?

Simon.
Quote:

I doubt she'd think Mal would want to harm her. But he could easily upset her without wanting to. Zoe knows that. So she tell him he should stay out.

I don't understand what would be so out of character about that.

I can see her suggesting that he needs to stay out, yes. I can't see her in the other version of being some hulking bodyguard to the point of violence with her captain.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 11:08 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by EmeraldEAD:
I just don't see Joss putting Inara in that situation, whether it's Reavers or normal people. It would completely degrade the strength and character of Inara that has been built up (mostly in Shindig) about being able to do her business in her field as well as Mal does in his.


I agree with that 100%. *g*


Quote:
Quote:
This wouldn't be an instant of personally protecting Inara, but rather of Zoe as a woman being there for another woman.

Ugh no!!!! Way too stereotypical and trite! I can see Simon doing this more than Zoe.


But how is it stereotypical and trite?

If Inara was attacked by (cannibalistic, vicious) men, then a woman's presence would be automatically less threatening. We're talking, I repeat, about "shaking and post-traumatic". Subtle clues count in that state of mind.

As a woman, Zoe would also be able to relate to Inara in a way that a man cannot. It's not a stereotype, it's just a biological fact. Plus, as a veteran, she has seen post-traumatic in a way that Simon most likely hasn't.

Simon is awkward as hell. He can just barely summon the words to calm down River, and he's her brother. Medically, he's great, but interpersonally... not so much.

Not to mention, he would have been the one to treat her medically, which is also something Inara would like to distance herself from when she's supposed to get some rest and slowly calm down.

Zoe's presence would be the calmest and most neutral.


Quote:
Anyway, who better but Zoe to know that Inara needs no protection from Mal?


That's physically speaking. I'm talking emotionally.

Mal's obvious relationship with Inara is an adversary one. Insults and power games. His more intimate moments with Inara have never been witnessed by the crew.

Zoe would hardly be able to guess that Mal is about to make a fairly significant gesture of respect toward Inara.

All she would see is that the Captain is a potentially upsetting visitor for someone who is not in a state to receive visitors, at all.

For what it's worth, I'm certain she would have sent Kaylee away, too. River, too. It's just Mal we know of here.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 3:42 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
It's a completely inefficient weapon, unless in an unpreventable yet expected attack

I think you managed to totally miss my point. Probably not your fault though. I'll try again.

Inara's job means that she will be a target for a rape, and the fact she travels by shuttle means that, provided her client isn't the one doing it (why would a client need to?), she should have ample warning.

HOWEVER in fiction and reality alike ample warning does not mean avoidably. As such in the time she has to prepare, be those preparations for fight or flight, she could easily giver herself an injection. The injection, one assumes it wears off in time, will cause no damage if she gets away or wins the fight, but will make all the difference in the world (to her attacker at least) if she loses.

She is unlikely to ever be in a situation in which she would be raped without sufficient warning, she is very likely to be in a situation where she may be raped, and though it may be only small conciliation to her it would certainly be nice to kill the ones who did it.

Quote:
However, it stands to question how much his respect of her is worth when he keeps trying to shame her for her life choices.

I never got the impression that he was trying to shame her. Inara uses whore as a totally non-derogatory term (Heart of Gold), and I don’t see why we should assume a double standard. If Inara sees it as non-derogatory and Mal sees it as MORE socially acceptable I don’t see how you can believe that he considers it shameful.

The first time we hear him use the term whore (in the episode Serenity) his voice shows nothing but amusement at Book’s misunderstanding of the situation. There is no indication of disrespect.

When he says he’ll keep out of her “whoring” he shows in the same sentence that he considers the profession at least as respectable as thieving (Trash). In Shindig he shows that he considers whore a term that is to be used in non derogatory conversation between equals.

Quote:
Mal may respect her, but he treats her disrespectcully regardless.

Once again I have to disagree.

Inara describes Mals attitude as a dislike of pretension (Serenity the episode, original cut) and I have never seen any evidence that it is anything else. Further it always seemed clear to me that Inara knew that too. He is not disrespecting her, he is not even disrespecting her profession (though he doesn’t seem to like it) he is merely using a more descriptive term. It’s like someone who says “shell shock” to a psychologist specializing in Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome.

Inara never shows anymore distaste than a psychologist presented with that terminology will.

Quote:
That is takes this sort of attack for him to step off his judgmental high horse does not reflect very well on him, nor do I find it a particularly original idea that seeing her weak helps him develop a kinder attitude than, say, seeing her strong.

I hope I’ve made it clear that I never saw him being on that horse to begin with, that said I also think you miss the point of that, decidedly unoriginal, move.

When people are traumatized, especially raped, they often lose their self respect. I don’t mean the kind of self respect people toss around in casual conversation, I mean the kind of self respect that is required to be a complete person. One of the ways to help someone regain self respect is to show them respect.

There is nothing remotely kind about what Mal was to do, it was utilitarian. It is no kinder than beating a child for “his own good” when he does something wrong. If Mal was going to be kind he would have apologized, he would have talked to her, he would have done the very things we are told he was specifically not going to do.

-
-

The unoriginal idea you’re talking about, which I don’t think is included in the story based on our limited information, I have always seen as a difference not between weak and strong but rather honesty and pretence. In movies, tv shows, books, and even songs where someone becomes kind after seeing someone weak I know of no case where it was the weakness that caused the change, it was the lack of pretence, and it is in no important way different than when someone becomes kind after seeing a person being strong without pretence.

It is not the strength that matters; it is the honesty of the situation. The fact that there is honesty in weakness more often than in strength is a result of the nature of life and culture in relatively equal parts.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 5:25 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Inara's job means that she will be a target for a rape, and the fact she travels by shuttle means that, provided her client isn't the one doing it (why would a client need to?), she should have ample warning.


I am honestly not trying to be obtuse here, but could you perhaps give me an example of a situation?

One that is likely enough to cause Companions to develop a weapon of this sort? One that occurs on Core planets just as much as border planets? (Because, as I remember, your argument was that this was a Guild-produced drug.)

I honestly cannot picture a situation that isn't completely random, where Inara would know she's going to be raped yet has no way to prevent it, while still having the time to inject herself.

Also: Why does Inara's job make her a target for rape, any more than a regular high-class woman? The greatest danger and difference I see here are indeed the clients, who, as you say, would have no interest in raping her.


Quote:

I never got the impression that he was trying to shame her. Inara uses whore as a totally non-derogatory term (Heart of Gold), and I don’t see why we should assume a double standard.


I was half-way through replying to the rest of your post until it occured to me that you might just be joking here.

Are you?

I always considered that Mal's calling her a whore was about as unquestionably disrespectful and aimed at shaming as it gets. A fact of the show.

I won't be able to sleep unless you tell me you're just kidding me. Or if you aren't.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 5:45 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I won't be able to sleep unless you tell me you're just kidding me. Or if you aren't.

Well then sleep well knowing that I am not. In the whole series we only met one friend of Inara’s, a woman of class and sophistication who she calls a whore. Long before then we saw that when Book says Mal should not have called Inara a whore her response is simple: Mal is opposed to pretence. Whenever Mal uses the word whore, or one of its many derivatives, there is no hint of disrespect in his tone.

The only time I do recall a hint of disrespect was when he asked if the distress was in someone’s pants. That’s a question that could be just as easily asked by a person who finds the career respectable (it is obviously odd for a companion to get a distress call, and humor isn’t always uncalled for), and Inara had to bait him to make him say it.

He is obviously aware of the fact that it irks her, but irking someone, even intentionally, is not the same as treating them without respect. She makes clear that she doesn’t consider the word whore derogatory, he makes clear that he does not consider it derogatory, so if neither of them thinks of it that way where is the disrespect?

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Wednesday, November 23, 2005 6:48 PM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

Well then sleep well knowing that I am not.


Oookay. I am going to argue this a little. No offense intended, just... bafflement. :)

Quote:
In the whole series we only met one friend of Inara’s, a woman of class and sophistication who she calls a whore.


True. Inara there is using it as a descriptive to separate Companions from regular prostitutes.

It is noteworthy here that Mal mentions that he thought she wasn't fond of the word. That he is susprised she would use it at all. That's not how he'd react with a neutral descriptor.

Quote:
Long before then we saw that when Book says Mal should not have called Inara a whore her response is simple: Mal is opposed to pretence.


Actually, her response is "Believe me, I've called him worse."

Implying that "whore" is at the very least bad.

When she came aboard, she specified that he cannot call her whore. Looking less than thrilled to have to do so.

Even IF he didn't consider the word derrogatory in reference to Inara, it is disrespectful of him to call her something she has clearly told him not to.

She always reacts negatively, and not just with mild annoyance. In "Serenity" she turns right around from walking down the stairs to back up, refusing to meet the rest of the passengers. Her mood goes from cheerful to chilly and she throws the word back at him, without smiling, in a way that shows she took offense.

In "Shindig" her friendly fencing lesson turns to icy anger, prompting the entire discussion about respect and disrespect to even come up.

Before, when they are dancing, he continuously takes jabs at her. "You have no right to try and make me feel ashamed of my work." Inara says. "What I do is legal. And how's that smuggling coming along?"

These are two people insulting each other.

In "Trash" she says "That didn't take long!" when he drops the word. An expected insult.

In "The Message", when Mal refuses her help to protect her career, she replies "The career you abhor and look down on?" He doesn't deny that in the least.

It is fairly clear that Inara feels offended, even hurt when he calls her a whore, precisely because of the words traditional connotations.

IF Mal didn't intend to offend her, it'd be callous to continue doing so. Both ways aren't exactly glowing with respect.

Quote:
Whenever Mal uses the word whore, or one of its many derivatives, there is no hint of disrespect in his tone.


Sarcasm? Context?

The first time he does, he's offended by her Alliance ties. "I imagine you're not the only whore that did [support unification]."

In "Serenity" he sets up her profession as a crass contrast to the Shepherd's misunderstanding. He doesn't allow Inara to explain herself, he cuts in with a word that carries some clearly derrogatory connotations, meaning he wanted the contrast to be crass.

Ambassador = good.
Contrast: whore = bad.

When he says "whoring" in Trash, he is clearly agitated and offended by her interference in his own work.
He does call YoSaffBridge a whore when she flies off in his shuttle. Obviously meant as an insult then, too.

Oh, and in the little blurb at the top of this thread, he clearly makes a distinction between "whore" and "lady". He doesn't take that distinction away, he just ends up demonstratingthat he considers her the former rather than the latter.

If whore was a neutral descriptor, there would be no need for the distinction.

In fact, that entire episode idea is built on the assumption that Mal's use of the words is meant as offensive.

Quote:

She makes clear that she doesn’t consider the word whore derogatory, he makes clear that he does not consider it derogatory, so if neither of them thinks of it that way where is the disrespect?


I simply do believe that he means to be derrogatory when using the word on her. And that Inara regards it as offensive when applied to her. Because she is not a whore, in her mind.

And that's not even touching on the many meaning attached to the word, that aren't merely descriptive. Loose, dirty, easy, disease-ridden, poor, uneducated, choice-less, motivated by money, immoral...

I don't believe that Mal sees whores in that way, but he uses those connotations to offend her, precisely because he DOES have the excuse of pointing at the descriptive factor.

At first, in order to annoy her and scratch at her respectability. Mal has no love for the rich, after all, and "exposing" her Companion image as equal to something more "common" is likely a fun sport.

Then later after they have bonded some, he could maybe relax and give it up, if it was really all the same to him, but he keeps using it, causing offense.

That is disrespectful.

He has personal reasons for that and inside he truly does respect her, BUT his behavior IS all manner of rude.

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 7:05 AM

BELACGOD


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:


Simon is awkward as hell. He can just barely summon the words to calm down River, and he's her brother. Medically, he's great, but interpersonally... not so much.


Simon's only awkward outside of his field. In the infirmary, or the hospital on Ariel, he's as confident as Mal. I suspect if Simon found himself guarding a Reaved woman's door he'd be perfectly at home resisting all attempts to do anything that would damage her condition.

That said, Zoe is more likely to do the guarding.

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 11:35 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC


I’m going to stop this, we obviously see it very differently intereptreting exactly the same things in different ways is not going to make progress. However I would like to say two things:

The first is that when I say something I mean it. I said that she mentioned pretence in the original cut, and I meant the original cut. He exact words were, “He dislikes pretension.” When I mentioned that exact same scene again it was still in the original cut, as you have pointed out there is not possible reason to believe that I had switched to the final cut because pretension is not mentioned in it.

If you wanted to argue that the original cut doesn’t apply that would have been fine.
It is certainly a valid argument. However when you completely ignored what I actually said that was rude.

-

The second is that words are not absolute, I once knew two friends who referred to one another as nigger and cracker. In that particular situation between those specific people those words, highly negative connotations and all, were non-derogatory.

What is in a dictionary or the public mind today may not apply later. I thought it was made clear that it didn't apply by Inara’s reference of Nandi as a whore and Mal’s placing whoring equal to thieving (the present connotation of whore is much more negative than thief.)

I may be completely wrong, but I still think you are in error assuming that a word will always have the exact meanings that you personally associate with it.

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 12:01 PM

AGENTROUKA


You are right, we see things very very differently.

I wasn't aware that an original cut of the scene existed, nor did you specify that you were referring to a version other than the one that aired. I don't see how I was rude in not knowing you were referring to something other than the aired version?

Quote:
I may be completely wrong, but I still think you are in error assuming that a word will always have the exact meanings that you personally associate with it.


It is not about me personally. I was referring to the many levels of meaning associated with the word "whore" and the fact that more than one level is at play in the show between Mal and Inara.



Let's agree to disagree.


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Friday, November 25, 2005 9:50 AM

OLDSOUL1987


Quote:
If this was truly a legitimate episode suggestion, then I imagine it was going to be polished up a LOT more.


There's some holes in that story that have me cringing.

Not so much the idea of rape, although the scenario does have some rather badfic connotations. (I agree with Jacqui there.)

Nor the Zoe thing, because of everyone aboard Serenity she is probably most equipped to deal with a traumatized, sane, adult female. Kaylee's too emotional, River too unstable. Not to mention, who knows what she has seen in the war?


But the rape-kit of death... uh... Not seriously, right?

What creeps me out is the whole handkiss idea.

A healthy happy Inara is a whore but a traumatized, abused Inara is suddenly worth more than that? I'd expect Inara waking up at that moment and slapping Mal square in the face for the implication.

I could imagine that being filmed more subtly than it is described here, making it more obvious that it's a throwaway line he doesn't mean, or something..

But that's still a really clumsy way to highlight the whole sex vs. power vs. morals vs. hypocrisy thing. At least when it comes to Mal's perspective.


I agree with you about most all of what you said, this would be a good episode cause most if not all we have see is the alliance its crulety and the core and how bad they are... not much badness is shown of the freedomes of the rim with the exception of some criminals and savagase they could out fly... now it truely show the potesial crulety of it. don't get me wrong i love Inara she is my favorite character... it hurt to read that, but she is strong and inside probibly the only thing that kept her alive was the fact that she knew she had killed her violators. she is a strong woman and a real fighter and protector much like mal only she fights the instict to become tied to this family so she leaves. and i agree Zo would be best equipt and she would help Inara trying to keep mal out seeinga as that might just be a moment inara would not want to see mal.
now for the whole rape kit of death thing as you put it i think it is ok, i would want to kill any one that touched me. i am sure i am not the only woman who feels that, and i think it would be a good idea and probibly a known fact amongst some folk in the core worlds that some compainions are traind in the arts of poison. it is a steriotyped thing you know poison and women. I am sure that is how the crew found out that she had something that could kill a rapest, also Inara even if she is a buddhist always seemed to want some sort of revenge. like with niska her words were something like "i am sory you did not kill that (insert manderin curse here)" yeah so goal drivin and strong would not die from rape only change even from reavers.

Ok next I think if you looked at it the way you looked at it i agree with you but i looked at it another way... i thought Mal told her she was a whore not a lady and basicly the hand kissing is a sign of a lady. She got taken and that was the last thing she heard from him that she was not a lady... they get her back but broken and he feels awful knowing he was wrong she is a lady he was just being a mean jerk! and so as a read in another journal about this he gets on his knees and kissis her hand to show that she is a lady, and that he is sorry perhaps. we all know he cares for her and she said she was going to leave if we assume that this did not take place that much time after the last episodes we cans y that perhaps Mal was even angry at her for leaving and was just being a royal butt. Any way i put me in his place, he loves her that is a givin since not many would go face reavers for just any one. and since he loves her he want to help her show her he loves her and stuff.

I know that the two character have problems with one another... but the main problem is not mal's rudeness, but rather Inaras hesitation and even fear of getting tied down. he was going to tell her before that he loves her but she told him she is leaving. So yes i think bad way to get together or to even share feelings about one another! his word were along the lines of "i ain't asking nothing of you 'nara.. just feeling kind of truthsome..." so yeah he works its ok Mal is a goo man


we are fragile cretures... it takes only one pound of pressure to break human skin..

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Friday, November 25, 2005 12:41 PM

DC4BS



Huh...

I kind of looked at the relationship between Mal and Inara as a bit childish in some ways.

Look at little kids in a school yard. A little boy, liking a particular little girl but not having learned yet how to show that appropriately may simply hit the girl or put gum in her hair etc... It's the only way he has of interacting with her. It's not that he wants to hurt her. It's simply that he feels the need to be around her and having her angry at him is better than having her ignore him and he has not yet learned enough to intereact with her at a more mature level yet.

After Serenity Valley, Mal became emotionaly closed off in many ways. Then Inara comes along and he feels things for her but, much like the little boy, has no way to express those emotions "properly" at the moment. But because they are so strong, those emotions will come out. One way or another which takes the form of their adversarial relationship.

It's in times of great danger that we see his defenses come down and his true feelings come to the surface as in the scene where he asks her to take the civilians and run in the shuttle towords the end of the pilot episode.

dc4bs

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:08 AM

OLDSOUL1987


Quote:
Originally posted by dc4bs:

Huh...

I kind of looked at the relationship between Mal and Inara as a bit childish in some ways.

Look at little kids in a school yard. A little boy, liking a particular little girl but not having learned yet how to show that appropriately may simply hit the girl or put gum in her hair etc... It's the only way he has of interacting with her. It's not that he wants to hurt her. It's simply that he feels the need to be around her and having her angry at him is better than having her ignore him and he has not yet learned enough to intereact with her at a more mature level yet.

After Serenity Valley, Mal became emotionaly closed off in many ways. Then Inara comes along and he feels things for her but, much like the little boy, has no way to express those emotions "properly" at the moment. But because they are so strong, those emotions will come out. One way or another which takes the form of their adversarial relationship.

It's in times of great danger that we see his defenses come down and his true feelings come to the surface as in the scene where he asks her to take the civilians and run in the shuttle towords the end of the pilot episode.

dc4bs


Ok i agree with you on this or rather i used to think that thier relatiionship was like that but it is only a little like that. Mal was raised by his mom and no dad just plenty of ranch hands as exampels of a male person. he probibly knows a thing or two about ladys, he was just some what hardend by the war and well Inara suported unification. that is one thing between them, they don't hate each other or even dislike each other a little bit he just likes to tease her, not because he is no good with woman folk but because Inara has sort of built this who its business not personal relationship thing to sort of protect her emotionaly. she was not looking for ties when she left she was looking for solitude and freedom even. she was trying to grow by her lonesome and some how this crew and ship became her family and home. two things she was not looking for, yet she found she had, and was trying so hard to pretend she did not have. The whole invasion of privacy and even haveing her partake in criminal activities with the crew, that was mal pushing her to test her and to break her lie. that was mals way of saying its personal admit it and inata saying no it business so quit it! Then in situations where she dissagred with mal she tried to use her vote as if she were part of the crew even if the whole time she denide it. for example when mal was going to throw of the Tams she said she would go too, and mal not wanting her to try and threatin him when she always played it like she was not part of the crew basicly said fine you don't want to be here any way and you don't belong here. (I am painting Inara like a real coward and a flake but in reality she had her good reasons to act this way.) Mal also has a sort of backgroud of being a tough love sort of guy, he yells and is hard on the people he cares about the most. he is just hard with each of them in his own way, with inara he really, really likes her... and the both know they like each other they just get caught in the silly game of you love me -no i dont- fine i dont love you either- yes you do-and you love me- no i dont now leave me alone-fine what ever but you still love me-and you love me but we are sooo not going to talk about it ok- what ever you love me like i said-you are anoying! and disrespectful-you sleep with other people even though you dont love them- so sex is not bad, stealing is!- at least its honest not a big lie- what do you care its none of your business!- i dont like you your a whore - i am not a whore and so much for being honest!- whore- petty- whore- OUT!- this is my shuttel- i am renting it so out!- Fine! we are landing in an hour(you know i did not mean it you just sort of get under my skin but i like you and respect you)-thank you now leave so i can get ready for my 'whoring' (you know i dont want to talk about it and all you do is hurt my feelings!... just let me go.).... sad sad sad i know but that is the was it seems to go. they act like kid yes but its all just lies...oh and plus they are kids a bit you know being in love makes some folks act all foolish and smile and giggle like teens. But all in al i bet mal is hurting and inara is hurting and they are just trying not to hurt one another be cause they love one another but they are prideful and confused and scared. they would work well together, they have much in common and they have enough depth to keep each other bussy for a few decades... and then there is the whole sex thing, i bet it rocks!

we are delicate creatures... it only takes one pound of presure to break human skin...

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 3:49 AM

EMMA


I'm a delicate soul, if they had filmed that I would've stopped watching the show. Break her heart, chop off an arm, even kill her, but for god's sake, rape?

Reavers are my least fave thing in the verse and this would have put me off for good!

I am sure it would have been fantastic story-telling though - if it was allowed on air and this isn't a wind-up.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:39 AM

XEROGRAVITY


Emma that theoretically smacks of cowardice. FF was never the "Leave it to Beaver" family flying thru space in a perfect universe. It was dark and very modernthinking scifi, where people are reduced down to their basic instincts instead of being the enlightened noble-hearted futuristic types from Star Trek. They say 1 in 5 women in the US are raped in their lifetime. You think that'll change dramatically even after we start flying into space?

If instead of Inara (theoretically), it had been a character from any show you casually watch in passing and whom you could care less about, would the storyline have been bareable?

I think if the ep had ever been made and aired, it would have been the singlemost thoughtprovoking treatment of the subject I'd ever theoretically seen. But alas, the show ceases to be.

No show on television these days that isn't a sitcom or a happy family 'qualude' avoids the subject. All your cop, doctor, and lawyer shows shamelessly exploit the subject every week or month or so. And those constitute damned near everything on TV it seems. Well, those percentages aren't counting reality shows. And even those now are getting into rape (MTV's real world?). It virtually never shows up in scifi. When it has (like in BSG), it's just tacky.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Sunday, November 27, 2005 1:04 AM

EMMA


Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Emma that theoretically smacks of cowardice. ....

If instead of Inara (theoretically), it had been a character from any show you casually watch in passing and whom you could care less about, would the storyline have been bareable?

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.



Cowardice it may be but I don't care. The one thing I draw the line at watching is sexual abuse. That's my problem not yours.

It wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference which character it was, or indeed, what show. I can't cope watching, reading or hearing about any form of sexual abuse. Personally, I think that makes me a healthy human being.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:02 AM

BELACGOD


For those of you calling us cowards for disliking this:

We like Firefly because of who the characters are, and because of the tone of the show. If Mal was all happy fun, or River was sane, or Kaylee was a total bitch or not even there, it wouldn't be the same show. Same for if Inara was a quivering wreck instead of the defensive, professional Companion she is.

Furthermore, after Objects in Space this episode would be very out of place. Even after the BDM, assuming that to be the end of season 2. Which means either this episode would have been really out of place and thus none too good, or the series would have had to take a dramatic turn for the darker over a longer period of time to fit this in.

Saying "If the show was very different, I wouldn't like it" is different from saying "Waah, bad stuff happened to Inara."

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Monday, November 28, 2005 7:26 AM

XEROGRAVITY


To me, shying away from this is cowardice. That isn't meant to some subversive promotion of rape. It's just hipocrisy. Laundry list time... what have we seen in the show? Shootings, stabbings, torture by electrocution, and Mal's ear cut off.

Is any of this less monstrous and barbaric then rape? It's funny how desensitized to that kind of savagery people become when they find it entertaining.

It's ok when it's one of the above but never rape. And the notion that women who've had that horror visited on them should expect it to never show up in good storytelling because of it's emotional significance doesn't fly with me. Murder, torture, etc... all of that is ok but no rape, never rape. Newp. Women are 50 percent plus of the marketing demographic.

Plenty of people have had friends and loved ones die senselessly (many having been tortured and murdered), and reenacting it is run-of-the-mill fare for everyday TV. It's ok... they can bare it.

I think IF this had ever made it into the screen, it would have been one of the most interesting things I'd ever seen on TV. Mal routinely calls Inara a whore... she is, afterall, a "high class" hooker, if there is such a thing. So very Geisha. He's obviously attracted to her, but disgusted by the way she sells her carnal treasure (oh virtue, where forth art thou?). He's living in a time where her profession is regarded as a thing that is prestigious. We'll probably see that become a reality of our day ~ probably before my young life is at an end, the way things seem to be going. 10 years ago "pimp" was a title on par with a child molester. Now it's hip to be "pimp".

Sorry... maybe I'm prematurely out of step with the generational gap but I will never "get it" when it comes to pimping being a cool thing.

That's part of the appeal to me where Mal is concerned. Even in an age where it's hip and the height of higher culture to be a "companion", he's a throwback to a time where you'd call a whore a whore. She's motivated by money to satisfy men's libidinous needs. And he does call her a whore all the time. That was a gutsy part of the show's plot in and of itself.

Only Whedon and Minear could have broached the subject on the next level (the whole Inara abduction and reaver gangrape thing). They were always "Take no prisoners" when it came to writing a truly good story (at least where Firefly is concerned). It would have been brilliant. That's why it got the deep-six.

Someone earlier in the thread asked how people would feel if it had been Jayne in place of Inara in this theoretical storyline. That is a line of thought worth pursuing. I have to admit, it was worthy of a chuckle (not the idea of it, rather the idea someone would suggest it). Manrape is infinitely more taboo (unless it's a prison shower scene with no soap-on-a-rope).

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Monday, November 28, 2005 8:10 AM

BELACGOD


It's not cowardice to object to a dramatic change in the tone of a show you like because of its tone. I'm not squeamish about rape, I just think that this scene is too dark for Firefly as is, and if Firefly were dark enough for this to fit in I wouldn't enjoy it.

As to those people on this thread who are squeamish, if indeed there are any, I agree with you there. But that's not what my issue is.

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Monday, November 28, 2005 9:03 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
That's part of the appeal to me where Mal is concerned. Even in an age where it's hip and the height of higher culture to be a "companion", he's a throwback to a time where you'd call a whore a whore. She's motivated by money to satisfy men's libidinous needs. And he does call her a whore all the time. That was a gutsy part of the show's plot in and of itself.


I agree with pretty much everything you said, but the above part caught my interest.

Why is it so gutsy for Mal to make no distinction between an ordinary street (or brothel) prostitute and a Companion as defined by the show?`

I don't consider either immoral or offensive professions, btw, but I do think there is a difference.

Companions are highly educated and trained and their education does play a large role in their work, along with their bodies, in a way that isn't the case with the prostitutes that, say, Jayne visits.

Is her job only defined by the fact that sex is sold? Is the rest of the experience completely irrelevant? Is it automatically demeaning because she chooses to sell sex along with her other services?

I always considered the two different job titles to be somewhat like the difference between a restaurant and a hotel. You can get food at both places, but the hotel also offers you a lot more, and you can't just call it a restaurent anymore.


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Monday, November 28, 2005 12:24 PM

ZEEK


I think the injection could be a valid weapon. There are two angles you guys haven't mentioned.

1.) The injection is not the weapon, but the antidote. Maybe each companion is given a rape drug and only when they take the antidote is it ok for them to sleep with someone for a period of time.

2.) Perhaps the drug is not a rape weapon at all, but an assasin weapon. We still don't know why Inara left the companion house. Perhaps she was told to use the weapon against someone and refused. Maybe she loved the person. Maybe the drug is constantly in the blood stream and would end her career. That would also explain the look on her face when she looked at the syringe. It would also make for quite a different storyline for Inara after the proposed episode.

Just some ideas. I'm sure Joss could come up with plenty of other twists and turns.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 1:30 AM

JETFLAIR


Wow! I'm completely of two minds on this one. On one hand:

This sounds like a completely absurd, forced, and unrealistic concept. If it were a fanfic description I wouldn't even bother clicking on the thing. With what we've been told of reavers, it's hard for me to imagine anyone surviving that. This would also be way too dark and gruesome for my taste; heck, even the movie was a bit dark for me.

On the other hand: If well written and acted, this could be an incredibly emotional and powerful episode. It is hard to imagine they would go that far, but some very shocking things have happened in Firefly/Serenity.

Take Mal's torture scene. He's our beloved Captain, the star of the show. They electrocuted him, cut off his ear, and did all manner of other horrible things to him....not to mention he died. Speaking here as a female, I'd have to say that what Mal went through had to be at least as bad as being raped, and maybe even on a par with being raped by reavers.

But what could have been strictly a gratuitous and sadistic torture scene (think 24, Alias) became the catalyst for one of the most moving and even funny episodes. Perhaps this could do the same.

Just think of the emotional impact of not only having Inara go through that, but to see the crew risk their worst fear in the verse to rescue her; then, Mal kneeling down and kissing her hand? The idea of him abandoning his refusal to show his feelings, and doing something so simple and sweet and respectful as that is amazing. I have a feeling we'd all be in tears.

In a way, it would be classic Firefly; a dark, cold story with a loving heart.

__________________________________________________________________________________________

"Love keeps her in the air when she oughta fall down, tells you when she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home." .......We love you, captain.

"This is the captain. We may experience some slight turbulence and then.....explode"

Zoe necklace replica and other jewelry at www.exoticcatz.com/fireflyshop , Firefly/Serenity images at www.exoticcatz.com/fireflyphotos>

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:33 AM

XEROGRAVITY


AGENTTROUKA:

To answer your questions one by one...

I never said it was gutsy for mal to distinguish Inara being any different from a common street whore. Quite the opposite. She spreads her legs for money. It's all equally disgraceful to me. Could care less if she's supermodel beautiful and cultured like a japanese geisha, or a streetcorner heroine junkie looking for the next fix. She has a pricetag.

I'm no angel but I have my moral limits. In fact, my life is probably one long orgy of heathenistic perversity. But, a whore is a whore is a whore.

To answer your other questions...

(1) "Is her job only defined by the fact that sex is sold?"

Umm... yes.

(2) "Is the rest of the experience irrelevant?"

Umm... yes. Unless you believe money can buy you love. It's a cheap memory. Although in reality, for most men to get a woman that looks like Morena Baccarin in bed would require substantial sums of cash. Or boatloads of beer and a very desperate and blind woman.

(3) "Is it automatically demeaning because she chooses to sell sex along with her other services?"

Umm... yes.

What other services? Massage, flattery, company paid for by the hour (oh wait I'm sorry, she's a "companion").


The real issues here isn't whether or not she's a whore. It's how Mal viewing her as such will think of her AFTER the whole reaver abduction and gangrape thing. It's about whether or not she'll keep selling her sexual favors for money after undergoing that ordeal. Etc. It's a social studies lesson on how many people are willing to justify the oldest profession in the world as moral.

Ahh the good old days, when men were men and women were property.

It would have been interesting if it had moved out of the realm of theory.

XG


No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:50 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
AGENTTROUKA:
It's a social studies lesson on how many people are willing to justify the oldest profession in the world as moral.

Ahh the good old days, when men were men and women were property.



I don't quite understand, though... Why is it immoral? Why does it need justifying?

It's her body. And she herself chooses to provide a service with it. How does that make her property any more than a nurse, a counselor or a babysitter?

Who is she harming? And if not, why is it immoral?

Why is the sex the one defining feature? What is so hackle-raising about sex that it stops all the presses and makes everything else fade into the background as completely irrelevant?

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 9:56 AM

XEROGRAVITY


I'm sorry dude. I've seen the errors of my ways. Your continual re-asking of question I've just got done answering has somehow undermined the entire basis of my reasoning.

I agree with you now. Women should sell sexual favors. It's a hallmark of their independance, and sign of their strength. We should deem it the new crest of feminism. Equality is measured in dollars at the end of the day.

Find me some strong women and line them up for auction. The more I have to pay for them, the more I'll come to respect them as selfwilled and independantly strong.

If you don't get it, you just don't get it.

Actually, you've probably been spending too much time in college classrooms. Escape the mold, and maybe one day you will get it.

XG

Socratic irony only works on me when it comes from Socrates. And he's getting kinda moldy these days.

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:06 AM

AGENTROUKA


Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Actually, you've probably been spending too much time in college classrooms. Escape the mold, and maybe one day you will get it.



My, aren't you a cheery person.

"You don't get it" is absolutely a respectable and mature response to a serious question, isn't it?

Nicely frees you from the responsibility of having to actually, you know, try and explain your reasoning.

Oh, and the personal insults heighten your appeal even more.

I'm charmed.


How about you come back when you are actually able to form a rational response. If you have a good reason, it should be possible to put it into words, right, without hiding it behind lots of evasive nothingness?

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:11 PM

DAISYCUTTER


(Then the Reavers attack and take Inara. While trying to get her back they learn that she had something that would make anyone who had sex with her die.)

Was that what the syringe was we see her with on the pilot epidoe? I thought that was a quick and painless death

[edit] okay, I didn't see that little paragraph underneath the main one, until I wrote what I thought

-------------------------------------
The politicians idea of "giving the finger", is pushing the big red button....

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:12 PM

SPACEHOPPER


Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Is her job only defined by the fact that sex is sold? Is the rest of the experience completely irrelevant? Is it automatically demeaning because she chooses to sell sex along with her other services?

I always considered the two different job titles to be somewhat like the difference between a restaurant and a hotel. You can get food at both places, but the hotel also offers you a lot more, and you can't just call it a restaurent anymore.



Correct me if I am wrong, but I can't remember one time that Inara met a client and didn't have sex with them (maybe not with the woman; I can't remember if she stayed the night or not). This is because her clients approach her for basically one reason - sex, just like a prostitute. The differences (her education and other services) do not make her job role different; they just make her more desirable to the prospective clientele than an ordinary prostitute.

It's not like comparing a hotel to a restaurant: it's like comparing a high class restaurant which offers 5 course meals, better food and nice atmosphere to a crummy diner with a rude waitress who doesn't really want to serve you; or a high class hotel with a jacuzzi, tennis courts, room service and really nice rooms to a crappy motel that only provides a dirty, uncomfortable room and nothing else: A rich man wouldn't go near the crummy diner or crappy motel if he could go to a high class restaurant or hotel, just like in Firefly they'd choose a companion over a common prostitute.

You go to a diner to get food, same as a restaurant; you go to a motel to get a room and bed for the night, just like a hotel; and you go to a prostitute for sex, just like a companion. The restaurant, hotel and companion just offer more services as well as their primary function and cost a whole lot more for the luxury, so rich people view them as more acceptable; but they all do the exact same basic job as their crappy counterparts. In the eyes of someone who didn't care about all the luxuries and quality of the product and just wanted the basic product being sold, a restaurant is the same as a diner, a hotel is the same a motel and a companion is the same as a prostitute - the quality and luxuries added in do not make the fundamental product different, just a whole lot more desirable.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 3:09 PM

AGENTROUKA



Well, I'd consider the way she counselled Fess Higgins in "Jaynestown" to be a pretty good example of hotel vs. restaurant.

Her real service to him wasn't the sex. It was showing him that a) sex had nothing to do with being an adult, and b) that he could be strong enough to stand up to his father if he dared.

That was a psychological service more than anything else. Try getting that with a regular prostitute.

The fact that she did also have sex with him doesn't detract from that in any way. So why is it only the sex that would count in that scenario?


Besides, I'm not arguing that a Companion is not a prostitute! She is!

I am arguing that a companion is a different kind of prostitute than what is commonly referred to as "whore", and that neither of those professions are deserving of the derrogatory connotations attached to them.

Basically, I am saying that Mal is wrong to call her a "whore" when she isn't. Just like a calling a restaurant a "diner" isn't applicable when it's a five-star eatery, to use your example.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:48 PM

XEROGRAVITY


Clearly you're educated. Medically educated. Don't answer a question direct. You just answer a question with a question. Your education tells you to do so. Freud and his copycats would be proud. Maybe you went down this road, went med school, then backtracked and went psychiatrist.

You're either a community college psychologist, or a med school psychiatrist.

Remain aloof and take a stand on nothing. Nothing is philosphically everything. It's the whole source of your paycheck. Existence is a question mark, but your authority is absolute. Letters behind your name say so.

You're are a protected species of human being. Never answer any questions and you will always remain as such.

Your term paper is always overdue.

Go malpractice somewhere else. Skull jockeys are all alike. Never an answer... just more and more questioning.

XG

(or you're just an exceptionally brilliant and clairvoyantly lucky genuine nutcake).

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks. Unless you find a questionable psycho-professional (psycho-anything).

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