What Joss ruined for me.... by gypsylife

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What Joss ruined for me....

POSTED BY: GYPSYLIFE
UPDATED: Saturday, November 26, 2005 18:54
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VIEWED: 7036
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Thursday, November 24, 2005 2:49 PM

Don't you guys go thinkin' I'm being negative. All hail Joss and anyone directly or indirectly related to anything that has made it's way out of his brain (and those that have yet to). No what Joss ruined for me is regular tv.

When I started acting in High school I found that the more I learned the more critical I was and the less I 'put up with'. I found myself sighing with um..bored irritation? I just couldn't appreciate something not quality.

Well, Joss & Gang (I say gang meaning aforementioned) have ruined the lesser quality for me. I don't know about you guys, but I find that I can't really watch Star Trek anymore. I just feel like everyone's got too much money or they're all actin' too proper...I just have too many critisims. But I guess since Joss got it right, I can't really watch it wrong now, can I? Just my thoughts.

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 3:48 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Gypsylife,

I feel exactly the same way! I used to be such a fan of Star Trek and BSG and Stargate, and although I would still rather watch all of the above rather than network tv ( the exception being "Lost") I find I don't want to. I hunt the dial for Joss stuff, or I turn it OFF. I never used to do that, but I just can't seem to tolerate things that are too starchy. I love the 'verse and I'm ruined for watching much else.

I also never would have considered watching "Buffy" or "Angel" before.... now I wake up early to catch them both... 6:00 a.m. early!
Or I copy them and that's all I watch besides "Firefly".

Yep, I'm addicted.

"When a man engages in clandestine dealings, he has this preference for things going smoothly."
Mal

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 4:12 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

Trek is still great, especially DS9. Although what was most special about Trek, except Voyager and Enterprise, was that it was ahead of its time. When you watch Trek you have to look at it in context, the original Trek may seem very sexist and prejudiced today but it was made during a time of extreme prejudice and segregation.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:49 PM

THUNDAR

Joe Straczynski ruined lesser Sci-Fi for me. Joss just reinforced that feeling. Unfortunately it seems the general public prefers the low quality crappola that has been produced within the Star Trek franchise and Star Wars.

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 5:52 PM

KAYLEE4SIMON

well just think of Star Trek as the alliance and you'll be fine.

Keep shiny!

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 6:36 PM

PSYCHOTICBRIDE

Well fortunately for me, I didn't even like sci-fi, or most TV, to begin with, so there was nothing to ruin. :D

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Thursday, November 24, 2005 8:26 PM

CALHOUN

Firefly is of course the best sci fi (or any other type of TV for that matter) ever but Star Trek in particular Next Gen will always have a special place in my heart, since for me it was the originator, the catalyst that started the fire of love for sci fi.

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Friday, November 25, 2005 6:15 AM

RUSHLOCK

I hope Farscape isn't a bad word around here :)

It's what got me to watch sci-fi, and to give Firefly/Serenity a chance.

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Friday, November 25, 2005 6:46 AM

RAE

I kind of look at the StarTrek shows as the "alliance" side of the 'verse, and Firefly as "everyone else." Different sides of the same coin, as it were....

Rae

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Friday, November 25, 2005 11:47 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD

The Dominion from DS9 is probably more like the Alliance.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Friday, November 25, 2005 12:01 PM

REGINAROADIE

I dunno. I'm still a bit of a tv junkie, so I'm not going to turn it off just because there isn't a show with Whedon's name attached to it. Actually, I wouldn't have been able to watch BUFFY or ANGEL when it was initally on because I don't have cable. Just farmer-vision.

I still find wothwile stuff to watch. ARRESTED DEVELOPMENT, MALCOLM IN THE MIDDLE, MY NAME IS EARL and THE OFFICE I find are the only comedies I can stand. I still enjoy THE AMAZING RACE and SURVIVOR. And of course, there's 24, the tv equivalent of smack cocaine.

And despite the lags in between seasons, I still get excited over THE SOPRANOS.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"YES!!!I'm a man posessed by many demons....Polite demons that would open the door for a lady carrying too many parcels...BUT DEMONS NONETHELESS!!!! Yes. I have walked along the path of evil many times, it's a twisting, curving path that..actually leads to a charming plot garden, BUT BEYOND THAT EVIL!!!"

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Friday, November 25, 2005 12:05 PM

DAISYCUTTER

I used to watch star trek, but I don't anymore. I think its a preference more than anything, I just think those shows ran out of juice.

I still watch SG1, I have started watching the new series (Fighting a mystical equivalent of the Borg), but I'm from the UK so I've only watched the 4th episode

-------------------------------------
Q: Why don't we just raise the defensive shields?
A: A superb suggestion with just two major drawbacks. One, we don't have any defensive shields. And two, we don't have any defensive shields. Technically speaking thats only one flaw, but it was such a big one I thought I mention it twice.

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Friday, November 25, 2005 2:19 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

The quality of SG-1 has been deteriorating ever since it went from Showtime to the Sci-Fi channel. The Ori had the potential to be the best villain in Stargate but unfortunately that potential was not fulfilled.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Friday, November 25, 2005 2:23 PM

LASHER99

Quote:
Originally posted by Rushlock:
I hope Farscape isn't a bad word around here :)

It's what got me to watch sci-fi, and to give Firefly/Serenity a chance.

I'm the other way around. I got into Farscape long after I watched Firefly. It's another wonderful show. Some dud episodes but overall really good. But a tip to anyone starting: (1)Watch them in order, and (2)give the muppets a chance. I started buying the new Starburst DVDs which are an affordable way to collect the episodes.

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Friday, November 25, 2005 2:34 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Thundar:
Joe Straczynski ruined lesser Sci-Fi for me. Joss just reinforced that feeling.

Amen. Babylon 5 soured my take on the later Treks -- although at the time it was a real pleasure watching the competition from B5 force the Deep Space Nine writers to exceed themselves with some truly powerful story arcs. Picture that; B5 was so good it forced the Trek franchise to follow its lead. Unprecedented. Even Joss hasn't achieved that, Enterprise having failed fully on its own, more's the pity.

A'course, JMS was blessed in having five full seasons to tell his story with. Had to fight like a ferret for each one, too, but at least PTEN/Warner was willing to committ to a full season at a time, and didn't mess overmuch with the episode order.

"I can only assume that I'm paying off karma at a vastly accelerated rate." -- Susan Ivonova

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Friday, November 25, 2005 9:16 PM

THRAWN86

yeah I can hardly watch the star wars prequels anymore.

As far as scifi goes now though, we're not doing too bad. sg1, sg:a, and especially BSG are all certainly worth watching, and well above the caliber of typical network sci fi.

I'm going to the special hell...

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 3:30 AM

TIENSHAODUH

Quote:
Originally posted by thrawn86:
yeah I can hardly watch the star wars prequels anymore.

As far as scifi goes now though, we're not doing too bad. sg1, sg:a, and especially BSG are all certainly worth watching, and well above the caliber of typical network sci fi.

I'm going to the special hell...

I totally agree, Star Trek was going downhill, what they needed was innovation which was evidently lacking. Joss has something i haven't seen for a very long time if at all. Trek was too formulaic and repetitive, thank god it is dead and buried.
As far as SG-1 goes i was never really a huge fan but i have been watching some recent episodes and they are very good, they featured a lot humour (not as good as firefly though). And as far as BSG goes, the true successor to FF, and i just can't wait for Season 2.

"God has a plan for you, Gaius."

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 6:46 AM

RUSHLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by lasher99:
Quote:
Originally posted by Rushlock:
I hope Farscape isn't a bad word around here :)

It's what got me to watch sci-fi, and to give Firefly/Serenity a chance.

I'm the other way around. I got into Farscape long after I watched Firefly. It's another wonderful show. Some dud episodes but overall really good. But a tip to anyone starting: (1)Watch them in order, and (2)give the muppets a chance. I started buying the new Starburst DVDs which are an affordable way to collect the episodes.

Duds?

Just kidding, but I would like some examples. Not going to defend them, but I agree there were some better than others

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:48 AM

XEROGRAVITY

Hmm nothing Joss did in scifi ruined anything for me. I never got into his whole supernatural thing (which was his great claim to fame). Watched Buffy thru to the end of Season 3 recently (and after the fact), but once I hit that whole Incan Mummy Girl ep, it was just all downhill (in spite of the whole "Spike" thing).

Guess you just had to be there at the time to appreciate it.

But, he came out with FF and irrevocably won me over (even if he's not as committed to his enterprise as I am, regrettably).

Giantvilhead.. I'm shocked to hear you label any part of Trek as sexist or prejudiced. I know you're a creative guy, but you're definately a little brainshy in the history department. If any one show is the opposite of those labels, Trek is it.

But then I look at the posts following yours and I am reminded that groundbreaking geniuses are frequently smashed underfoot by the copycats who ride their coattails (at least in reputation). Straczynski versus Roddenberry?

Rushlock... John Crichton is the first modernday Buck Rogers to ever get sucked thru a wormhole. And Aeryn Sun in black leather is Maid Marion in Frederick's of Hollywood lingerie. Farscape is eternally cool and any contradiction is the height of nerd blasphemy.

Sadly, the show got the axe and the 2 main stars (Ben Browder and Claudia Black, best scifi lovestory duo ever!) got themselves merged into SG1 ~ into an SG1 that jumped the shark at the end of season 8. That was the idea behind the orchestrated hatchet-job on Farscape to begin with. Merge the 2 fanbases, and kill off the renegade Brian Henson company. He might pull a Jim Henson on us and produce a "Dark Crystal". We can kill off Farscape and try to revive a show that died with the end of season 8.

Season 10 here we come. I'd have LOVED to see Browder and Black (and Michael Shanks and Christopher Judge) be the new lead team in SG-Atlantis. That would have been the coolest damn stroke of genius the greedy moneyhungry SciFi chan could ever have pulled off. But alas, we have a show overdue for retirement, and a spinoff that smells like failure floating together in the same universe.

Stupid is as stupid does.

XG

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:57 AM

RIVER6213

My exhusband liked Stargate SG1 and that stupid SG1-Atlantis, therefore, I hate it and never watched it. I say let 'em burn.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:02 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD

Quote:
Originally posted by XeroGravity:
Giantvilhead.. I'm shocked to hear you label any part of Trek as sexist or prejudiced. I know you're a creative guy, but you're definately a little brainshy in the history department. If any one show is the opposite of those labels, Trek is it.

I meant that the original series is sexist by today's standards.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:14 PM

SERENYTY

I know what you mean.

I can't watch anything, without thinking "That's no Firefly/Serenity." or, "That guy's cute, but he's no Nathan Fillon or Sean Maher"

~A message from Serenyty~

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:47 PM

GEDEON

Quote:
Rae- I kind of look at the StarTrek shows as the "alliance" side of the 'verse, and Firefly as "everyone else." Different sides of the same coin, as it were...

Yeah, I mostly agree with that. I can imagine Captain Picard in Bushwacked not leaving the stolen carco at the end of that episode.

On the other hand, if Voyager met Serenity, I can imagine Janeway becoming one of Inara's clients.

Series are sometimes long-winded and become boring after a while. Firefly could not have been interesting for more than 15 seasons anyway...

When all is said and done, we go for the best tv that's available and then we move on. As proof, I watched Battlestar Gallactica (the first one) when I was a kid...

Gedeon

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:03 PM

XEROGRAVITY

But imagine what Janeway would have done if she met Zhaan (Virginia Hey) and a living ship named Moya. If Farscape had a well-deserved 5th and 6th season.... if only...

A plant with consciousness and a conscience, a beautiful soul loved by the sun. An inevitable resurrection of the plant that gave the show a soul, and a soul to a plant... if only...

Legends can be now and forever.

Sorry if I ramble. Since I've touched on the subject of Farscape castmembers, there is song that should have been dedicated to Zhaan a long time ago, it just never seemed to find it's way home. The absolutely supreme bands 'Yes' and 'Tangerine Dream' ~ 'Legend'ary, (aptly applied to the only piece of decent cinema involving Tom Cruise, "Legend") gave us a musical masterpiece that goes unrecognized even still.

...teaching us to love for goodness' sake.

This song was SOOOOOOO wasted on that movie. It should have been the Zhaan theme-song.

It'll find it's way back home. The beginning is half the start.

XG

No such thing as gravity. The "Earth-that-was" just sucks.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:07 PM

GYPSYLIFE

I loooove that song. I've loved that song ever since I was 7. ...now and forever...mmmm. Gonna be singing it all night now.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:56 PM

XEROGRAVITY

If Zhaan ever decided to come back she'd get a semi-cheesy dedication from me (REO Speedwagon)...

Ya she'd get the 'Keep on Loving You' song...

I betray my Mal-dedication, but it's a lost cause anyhow. Life ain't a whirlwind, and I haven't forgotten what I've started fighting for... give me back Firefly when yer done with them movies Whedon.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:29 PM

DREAMTROVE

Quote:

The quality of SG-1 has been deteriorating ever since it went from Showtime to the Sci-Fi channel.

Thank God. I thought either I was the only one who noticed this or I was deluding myself that I used to be watching a decent show here. SG-1 is still watchable, but weak, and SG-Atlantis isn't watchable at all.

Anyway, yeah, regular TV Star Trek etc is pretty much ruined. The people in it don't act like people. Everything is predictable and they often reveal hidden truths about human nature which are not really true.

Joss never leaves me feeling "Nah, that's not how it would go down."

Farscape is still quite good. There are things they don't do well, but it's okay, because there are other things they do great, and the whole spectacle is beautiful to watch.

Lexx was watchable after Buffy/Firefly, but Sliders wasn't. What seemed to be four characters experiencing different worlds upon reflection, post joss and seeing again, turned out to be four annoying narrators telling pretty simple stories in different worlds. Blake's 7 was completely unwatchable afterwords.

So, sure Joss has raised the bar. Unfortunately television will now roll over and die. But maybe with the joss bar as a base some new media can be born.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:53 PM

DREAMTROVE

Okay, here are my random comments on the rest of this thread:

xeroG,

1. Buffy is worth it. The show changes each season, for me seasons 3 and 6 are best. seasons 5 and 7 are probably weakest. But still, it's amazingly good. It's probably better than firefly, but only because the characters have had time to develop. Firefly's only problem is finding its spacelegs. There are many things in it that might not work, I thought zoe/wash wasn't working, and book wasn't working, I still feel mal/inara isn't working. Simon/Kaylee may work, it's still nowhere near as interesting as Xander/Anya, or Willow/Tara.

2. Star Trek's biases are the sort that only someone who is sure they aren't biased can make. They start out by showing all races of human to be equal, but suddenly klingons are stupid and evil. They come to terms with klingons and suddenly cardasians are evil.

To an objective outside observer, it might look like this:

Klingons are Zulus, or the like, warrior race.
Ferengi are semites, arab or possible jewish. Probably Morrocan.
Cardasians are Nazis, possibly asian Nazis.

Which is just as a straight parallel, but this doesn't need to be a parallel to see that Trek is still thinking always in terms of race. It would have been interesting if threats had evolved as evil corporations of political parties or something. Evil race or stereotype race isn't a very interesting concept.

Again, I don't think this was intentional, I think they were so sure they weren't racist that they didn't realize they were doing it.

I agree the sexist charge won't stick. Trek femmes don't strike me as amazingly realistic the way joss femmes do, but that's because trek has more of a male dominance in writing.

Gedeon,

Given that buffy re-invented itself in new and interesting ways every season, I'm sure firefly would have continued to be interesting.

All,

Zhaan left Farscape after she got skin poisoning from the blue stuff. She argued with the producers but they wouldn't agree to de-blue zhaan, so she quit. She still feels a little bitter about it. I wouldn't mind seeing her come in to one of the other shows as something totally different, I thought she was pretty good.

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 6:53 PM

XEROGRAVITY

I had no idea about the whole blue-makeup thing involving Zhaan. Wow! Feels like a knife in the heart. I always thought her departure from the show was a prelude to her return. When PK wars aired and she failed to show, I should have known. I had no idea.

I love Farscape but this puts it in a whole other light. And PK wars was never nowhere what it should have been without her. Sorry, Crichton's cellmate, the halffaced dude, never owned up to Zhaan's role (can't even remember his name but I know all the villains). No amount of scriptwriting could write him in to replace her.

XG

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Saturday, November 26, 2005 6:54 PM

XEROGRAVITY

Stark. Remember it now. Just an afterthought.

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