Just Curious About Something I Noticed... by RiveR6213

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Just Curious About Something I Noticed...

POSTED BY: RIVER6213
UPDATED: Saturday, December 3, 2005 14:56
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VIEWED: 7020
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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:16 PM

Why is it in Firefly, that Book and Zoe, who are fine, upstanding, and heroic characters, but just happen to be light-skinned blacks, while Early the Bounty Hunter, from "Objects in Space" and The Operative from "Serenity", and that woman from "Safe" who freaked-out and thought River was a witch are all dark-skinned blacks and are doing evil things?

Is this all by chance, and a complete accident that the light-skinned blacks are good in Firefly and the dark-skinned blacks are evil and are up to no good?

I bring this up because I'm starting to see a lot of patterns with this particular theme creeping into plenty of sci-fi movies and tv shows, which is somewhat annoying because its easy to not put it all together.

Even shows as innocent as Star Wars has this bit of a theme in it. Lando Calression we all know destroyed the 2nd Death Star and that made him a big damned hero, but, before he got around to doing that, he was hitting on Han's girlfriend (princess leia) and sold Han Solo out to Darth Vader, making him totally untrustable and a complete back-stabber. I couldnt help but notice that Lando just happened to be a dark-skinned black....is all of this by accident?

The episode "Objects in Space" Early was trying to scare the crap out of Kaylee by talking about raping her and such...now, the only time in Firefly did the words "rape" come up was when people were talking about what the Reavers would do if they caught you. And who could forget the very same Early, brutally slapping the crap out of our fair heroine Inara...Hmmm, more violence by a dark-skinned black, and more reenforcements for the viewing audience. What does this all mean?

Are writers and directors (OMG Joss?!) playing on our unspoken fears, and/or subjecting us to renforcements regarding all the racial garbage that's going on in our The-Earth-That-Currently-Is?

Lastly. I know this has been brought up many times, but I want to also mention it again because I feel it needs to be mentioned one more time just to make the point. For a 'verse where everyone is running around speaking Chinese, wearing Chinese cloths, swearing in Chinese, and you seem to see the Chinese language all over the place.....where the hell ARE the Chinese in Firefly? Sure you see a few walking around in the background in the 2nd part of Serenity(Firefly) and a few standing around in JaynesTown, but besides that, no Chinese!

I love Summer Glau, I think she's a fine, up and coming actress, and from what I've heard about her from my friends who have met her, they say she's a gem, a real human, and a total sweetheart. I also believe that she played the role River perfectly, she made you believe she was made crazy because of those alliance scientists, and she made you believe that she was sensitive..she's my hero, BUT, I think that the role for River and Simon should have gone to a Chinese couple. It would have given the show the extra kick that it needed, and it would have made the Chinese/Anglo 'verse more believable.

I've been wanting to say this for a while, but I feared you guyz and galz would hate me for even bringing it up, but now i'm feeling kinda brave, so I wrote what I wrote....sue me.

The money was too good and I got stupid...

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:21 PM

STATIC

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
BUT, I think that the role for River and Simon should have gone to a Chinese couple. It would have given the show the extra kick that it needed, and it would have made the Chinese/Anglo 'verse more believable.

To that end, I think B.D. Wong from Law&Order: SVU would have been a good choice for Simon.

http://burstsofstatic.blogspot.com

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 6:24 PM

RIVER6213

I agree with that choice for Simon, and I think that Vicky (Zahao Wei) would have been a good choice for River.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:34 PM

KHYRON

Regarding the skin colour, I was wondering about that stuff myself.

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
BUT, I think that the role for River and Simon should have gone to a Chinese couple. It would have given the show the extra kick that it needed, and it would have made the Chinese/Anglo 'verse more believable.

Totally agree with that. Nothing against Simon and River the way they are now, but there definitely should be more Chinese people in the show.

BTW, why is it called the Anglo-Chinese Alliance (or maybe the other way around)? AMERICA and China formed the Alliance, so shouldn't it be the Sino-American Alliance, or something like that? As far as I know, Anglo refers to the Brits, as in Anglo-Boer War, etc.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:51 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Why is it in Firefly, that Book and Zoe, who are fine, upstanding, and heroic characters, but just happen to be light-skinned blacks, while Early the Bounty Hunter, from "Objects in Space" and The Operative from "Serenity", and that woman from "Safe" who freaked-out and thought River was a witch are all dark-skinned blacks and are doing evil things?

I don't think it's deliberate; just an accident of casting. The first reason is that Joss isn't a bigot, and I don't think he'd tolerate such on his staff. The second reason is more complex...

I've been the "salt" half of a salt & pepper marriage for going on twenty years now, so I've been exposed to this particular form of skin color prejudice more than most of my fellow melanin deficients.

In my experience, and with some minor exceptions, the sort of white folk who are prejudiced against blacks (ie, morons,) don't generally differentiate between light skinned and dark skinnned blacks; that peculiar bit of idiocy is mostly internal within the black community, in the same way that the mutual North Italy/South Italy rivalries don't really matter to someone who isn't of Italian ancestry.

But hell, what do I know? My wife had to explain the difference between a "mocha", a "brown sugar", and a "high yeller" to me, and between us we're still working on why "Colored Person" is insulting but "Person of Color" is politically correct...

"You know, it's a long time indeed I been wonderin' why your own folk ever gave up so gorgeous a name as The Colored--I don't understand it, be dipped if I do... I traveled the world in me youth, and I noticed yez, mocha, mahogany, chestnut and cocoa... ocher and umber and amber and gold... coffee with cream, coffee with milk, coffee with nothin' but Tullamore Dew... amber and anatase, russet and chocolate... both the siennas, the burnt and the raw, hazel and sepia, several more... an' never a black man or woman I saw." -- Spider Robinson

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:58 PM

RIVER6213

I LIKE Simon and River the way they are now in the show. I love River played by Summer Glau, which goes to show what a good actress she is, but I think that her and Simon's roles SHOULD have gone to an actual asian couple; it would have made the show better even though Summer Glau did a 101% great job.

Anglo/Chinese, American/Chinese, Europe/Chinese....who knows what really works? It isnt clear to me what the war on The-Earth-That-Was was all about and who actually won it, so myself and you can't determine really WHO are all those people running around in the 'verse are and WHERE they come from, but we do know that they speak Chinese, swear in Chinese, wear chinese clothes, follow some chinese customs, and all the dark-skinned blacks are bad, and the light-skinned blacks are good.

The "verse is a confusing place, and I suspect that the writers leave out just enough for us to attempt to fill in the blanks, which we will do badly.

Look to the dead to teach you survival...

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:50 PM

RIVER6213

By the way. The idea that Joss could be a bigot never entered my mind at all, so I hope you fine folks don't divine my posts heading into that undesirable direction. I just noticed a pattern, in Firefly as well as in other movies (sci-fi or whatever) and it is that pattern in which I am bringing attention.

Shows like Firefly are comfortable, and they are a reflection of our The-Earth-That-Currently-Is, of our humanity, and our current reality, and that reality is Chinese culture is felt in an all white society, but not seen.

We hear the music of the culture. We see the written language of the culture. We hear the swear words of the culture, and it sounds and looks cool & hip coming out of the mouths of our BDH, but in reality, its that Chinese people themselves, in general, are shadows, and an unspoken invisibility on The Earth That Currently Is, and the fictional Fire Fly 'Verse

Could it be a full moon?

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 10:42 AM

ROCKETJOCK

Ah, but if River and Simon had been Chinese, wouldn't that be perpetuating the "All Asians are smart/model minority" stereotype? A medical doctor, and a supergenius prodigy as the only Chinese people on the ship? Geez, what a cliche!

Should have cast them as something else; dark-skinnned blacks, probably, to ensure 100% political correctness.

I would have like to have seen more Asian faces in the 'Verse too, but I was pleased enough that the show had an interracial couple as part of its heroic leads--and without making a fuss about it-- to pick many nits.

Keep in mind also, Most of Firefly's guest stars were vilianous in nature--would it have pleased you if Niska, or Atherton Wing, or the superstitious schoolteacher in "Safe" had been Asian? Or if Inara had been a dark-skinned black, would you be glad to see such casting in a heroic role, or would you be upset that the dark-skinned black was made the ship's prostitute?

Oh, and as for Chinese people being invisible on modern Earth, I can only presume you don't live anywhere on the Pacific Rim.

"Oh, I'm a bad man." -- Captain Malcolm Reynolds

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 11:27 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL

I would argue 500 years from now that there will be few 'racially pure' individuals. I mean there is so much mixing of cultures and races right now, so why would it stop right?

I always thought that River looked sort of Asian, she has very almondy eyes and her coloring is very Asian. Even her face shape. I would argue that with a last name like 'Tam' that Simon and River obviously have some sort of Asian ancestry.

The dark blacks = evil and the light blacks = good, well I think that's a load of crap. Why? Cos 90% of the villians in the Firefly 'verse are WHITE. Niska (plus Niska's henchmen), Badger (plus Badger's henchmen), Fanty & Mingo, Patience, Rance Burgess, YoSaffBridge, the Blue gloved men, The guy who's after Tracy, outside of Jubal and the Operative all the villians were white.

Also, the whores at the Heart of gold pretty much represented anything you can come up with. Remember, there was an Asian one! Also the patrons of the maidenhead in Serenity pretty much covered anything you could imagine.

Whenever I see these arguements made I always think they are a load of bullshit. There are good and evil people of any race. If Joss hadn't made any black people evil someone would have an issue, if only hispanics were evil someone would have an issue. It's just crap. It's lookin' for something that isn't there.

Also about the Anglo-Sino Alliance. From Websters:

Anglo: In contemporary American usage, Anglo is used primarily in direct contrast to Hispanic or Latino. In this context it is not limited to persons of English or even British descent, but can be generally applied to any non-Hispanic white person.

Sino: Short for Sinology: The study of Chinese language, literature, or civilization.

I have a feeling the term Anglo-Sino Alliance has more to do with the merging of spoken languages (Chinese and English(non-hispanic language of choice in the USA)) than of the countries China and America. Think about it, it makes sense. Everything is a spoken mix of Chinese and English, so the name would make sense.

But that's just me, who prefers to see the wolrd in a color blind fashion, much like Joss, who doesn't care what you look like as long as you can get the job done.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
http://pluralofapocalypse.blogspot.com
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
Inara: "Do aliens live among us?"
Kaylee: "Yes. One of them's a doctor."

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 11:43 AM

ALLARTICULATE

I agree that's it's all about Joss casting the perfect actor for each part. (And I also had a passing thought that Summer looked somewhat Asian.)

Looking throught a race-tinted lens can make it seem that there are patterns that ain't necessarily so. This is a world many generations removed from earth-that-is race relations. Humans love nothing so much as to divide themselves off from an "other," but in this world, other is Alliance/Browncoat/Reaver.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 11:49 AM

CITIZEN

Anglo-
Originally from Anglo-Saxon (the major tribes of the British isles) but it's changed to mean English speaking nations. Churchil reffered to an Anglo-sphere in reference to America and the Commonwealth.

Personally I had never really thought of the Jubal/Operative thing that way. I can see where your coming from but I don't agree.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:07 PM

WEICHI

I had long thought about the two black villians, but was comforted by the two black heroes. Had not examined the skin tones that carefully.

The asian thing seems truly nonsensical. I offer two explanations - Maybe China colonized in one direction, predominantly, and we just aint there in the show? Or maybe Joss reckoned that Asians drawling like this would seem strange like? Personally I thought Cho Chang's Scottish brogue was totally cool, wish she had more to say.

I do take objection to the classification of the character in "Safe" as a villian. She was a very compassionate, caring person. In the context of her backward society, she was behaving appropriately.

See how I'm not punching him, I think I've grown!

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:10 PM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by weichi:
I do take objection to the classification of the character in "Safe" as a villian. She was a very compassionate, caring person. In the context of her backward society, she was behaving appropriately.

I agree, I was going to post that, but I forgot...

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:31 PM

STORYMARK

I agree that for a 'verse in which roughly half the population is supposed to be Chinese, there was a massive shortage of actual Asians in evidence. I consider it a big oversight, and have yet to see an rationalizations to change my mind. Sure, the Asian population may have predominantly settled elsewhere, but the majority of Chinese people on this world live on the opposite side of the planet from me, and yet I see Asians on a fairly regular basis.

I also agree that in 500 years, ethnicities will probably be much more mixed. I imagine a more realistic version of the future would contain a whole lot of people in variouse shades of brown. And I would have bought the reality of the 'verse a bit more if it was a little less white-washed.

But I don't attribute any of this to bigotry of any other nefariouse agenda. Like I said above, just a big ol' oversight - probably reached in the process of casting the best possible actor in the role.

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:48 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
Anglo: In contemporary American usage, Anglo is used primarily in direct contrast to Hispanic or Latino. In this context it is not limited to persons of English or even British descent, but can be generally applied to any non-Hispanic white person.

Thanks for that. I thought "anglo" had a narrower definition. But this way the name of the Alliance it makes sense to me. I also see the Alliance originating as a result of a predominantly cultural, as opposed to political, meshing, but American culture differs vastly from "British" culture, so in the narrow sense of "anglo" (the one I thought was right), the name of the Alliance still wouldn't have made sense even in the cultural sense. But thanks for clearing all that up.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
The dark blacks = evil and the light blacks = good, well I think that's a load of crap. Why? Cos 90% of the villians in the Firefly 'verse are WHITE. Niska (plus Niska's henchmen), Badger (plus Badger's henchmen), Fanty & Mingo, Patience, Rance Burgess, YoSaffBridge, the Blue gloved men, The guy who's after Tracy, outside of Jubal and the Operative all the villians were white.

Either you misunderstood the point that was raised or I did. I thought the poster was referring to the fact that those villians that are black happen to be dark-skinned blacks; he/she wasn't saying that all villians were black.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
Whenever I see these arguements made I always think they are a load of bullshit. There are good and evil people of any race. If Joss hadn't made any black people evil someone would have an issue, if only hispanics were evil someone would have an issue. It's just crap. It's lookin' for something that isn't there.

I'd also like to say that they're bullshit, but I think there's a bit of naivité in doing that.

I think it's important to keep in mind that the poster wasn't saying that he/she had an issue with black people being cast as bad guys. In fact he/she wasn't having an issue with anything in my opinion, just pointing something out, namely that it seems that there are more dark-skinned blacks cast as bad guys than light-skinned blacks, something that MAY be an issue to some people (people not me).

BTW, I haven't read all of the above posts, so if you're in fact referring to something that somebody else said, then I'm sorry for responding in terms of what the original poster said.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
I would argue 500 years from now that there will be few 'racially pure' individuals. I mean there is so much mixing of cultures and races right now, so why would it stop right?

I agree with that. Of course it's hard to have a cast consisting only of "mixed" actors, so one should compromise by instead having a "mixed" cast in order to represent the 'verse one is trying to portray in a more realistic fashion.

Quote:
Originally posted by BlackEyedGirl:
But that's just me, who prefers to see the wolrd in a color blind fashion, much like Joss, who doesn't care what you look like as long as you can get the job done.

There's nothing wrong with seeing colour and different races, as long as it's not from a racist point of view. In fact I believe that being truly colour blind can be a form of ignorance (in some cases). Of course, when two people of different races have a similar cultural background, then their skin colour won't make a difference, but not all of the world works that way and very often a different skin colour implies a different cultural background, and it would be stupid to just see past that and treat that person the same as you treat everybody else.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:03 PM

RIVER6213

No need to transform this into something that it isnt. I was just pointing out what I and everyone I know noticed, but it didnt in anyway wreck the show for us because Firefly and Serenity are very good shows, but it was noticable that's all, and getting all hot, or upset about it doesnt change that.

Regardless how you attempt to argue this, the fact is that in the show that seems to have a very large asian feel to it, asians are not present at all really, and the 3 dark-skinned blacks are engaging in a certain amount of unpleasentness, and our BDHs Zoe and Book, who just happen to be light-skinned blacks are engaging in acts of heroics and goodness; this is in the show, which you and I have watched...not something I made up, so you can't explain it, nor argue it away.

Mine and a few other's observations has nothing to do with being politically correct, we just noticed a few things within the show itself, and I of course, decided to mention it to all of you nice people just to see what you had to say about it, and a lot of your answers are somewhat in the defensive catagory, which is understandable because Firefly is such a good show and it is very comfortable if you know what I mean.

Like I mentioned before in earlier posts. The roles of Simon and River were done very well, and if you have read my past posts, you would know that I really like Summer Glau's performance as River and gave her a 101% rating of a job well done, BUT, placing an asian in the role of River along with simon would have added a bit of a twist to the show, and would have given the asian/caucasian 'verse a little bit more reality.

The trouble with some people is when they hear or read something about race, they seem to jump to all the wrong conclusions and get all defensive or offensive, when in this particular case, it was a simple matter of wanting to know if this sort of thing in Firefly and Serenity, or even a few other shows that this pattern seems to come up, was deliberate (gasp!) or just that's how the pieces fell when they wrote, directed, and produced the show.

We could reverse the situation. Lets say in China, they came out with a Show called "FireBug" or some name like that. The show deals with the happenings of earth people 500 years in the future where it appears that there had been some dreadful war on the planet so the Earth people had to go and find another place to live, and they found a whole bunch of moons and planets to live on.

In this show, the episodes center around this ship called FireBug, where the crew of this ship are all Chinese, but their clothes, their mannerism, their customs, and their swearing are all in European (German, French etc.), or American english. There is a lot of English wording written everywhere you go, but you almost never see any white people, though they are mentioned, and their art is everywhere, their music is everywher, but you never see them, so it starts to become somewhat clear, that for this particular show, white culture provides the background minus the actual culture themselves.

This is how Firefly presents itself, and personally, I think that this was done by accident and was not by design, so don't give me grief for noticing it.

Anyway, Firefly/Serenity is a wonderful show and I'm glad that I lived to see it even though it was short-lived, and got cancelled, it will be on the shelf along with all of my other favorite shows and movies.

With that, back to work I go

FOX proved that You CAN stop the Signal

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:15 PM

DC4BS

Hmm... I had noticed the lack of orientals too. Yes, they could have cast various rolls of the "Prime 9" as oriental actors but we wouldn't have the show we love today. What about changing Mal to a Chinese actor? The show would have had a very different "flavor". Maybe worse, maybe better. Nothing right or wrong about that, it just would have been different because there would have been a different talent and interpretation of the script involved in portraying the captain. The same goes for any other character in the show.

As to the light/dark skin of the actors in various rolls, I hadn't noticed that but now that you have pointed it out...

Aside from anything else, the concept of "other" tends to be a bit scary. There was an outcry about the bad guys in Matrix II being albinos. "Why are albinos always cast as bad guys?" Well, they look different and being twins just put the icing on the cake of their "otherness"!.

The unknown/unfamiliar is much more scary than the familiar. While there is a very broad scpectrum of skin tones in the world, the very lightest and the very darkest are the rarest as racial mixing takes place more and more and brown becomes the predominant skin tone the everyone is most familiar with. By simple statistics, those individuals at the far ends of the spectrum are the least familar to the most people who would view the show. Therefore the most ominous. Not saying it's right, just that it's generaly how it works.

For the most part, someone exactly like or very similar to yourself is not very interesting. Someone just noticeably different in one or two features is often atractive. Someone VERY different from yourself is scary. Goes all the way back to cavePerson ;) instincts. Genetics dictates that it's best to find someone outside the tribe to breed with, but not someone TOO FAR outside the tribe where cultural differences, looks, etc, might be so great that they may cause problems for your new mate and or descendants within the tribe.

dc4bs

Grrr, Argh!

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:23 PM

CITIZEN

Chill chill.
Just saying that I didn't see what you saw, re. The dark black villains etc. I don't think it's fair to call the nurse from Safe a villain, maybe the guys who carried Simon and River off, and defiantly the Village patron, but not the nurse.

Yeah, there could be a lot more Asians in FireFly. If you want to know why I think that is, then here goes:
There's no where near as many Asian actors, so far less likely to find actors that were right for the roles.
The actors that were cast were perfect for the roles if different people had been cast it would be a radically different dynamic, and a radically different show (this is backed up by stuff that is said by cast members.

Basically I'm saying it was probably simply down to picking who was best for the part, and none of them happened to be Oriental.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
Remember, the ice caps aren't melting, the water is being liberated.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:27 PM

DAISYCUTTER

Is it me or are the two men with blue gloves, white? The last time I checked, they were not black, and believe me, they could freak out the bounty hunter?

You are probably noticing something which is just pure luck

Anyone who mentions Shakespeare will get a .50 in their ass

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:34 PM

RIVER6213

Those two guys with the blue gloves were scary...especially that one guy with the strange eyes.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:48 PM

DAISYCUTTER

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Those two guys with the blue gloves were scary...especially that one guy with the strange eyes.

I noticed their cheek structure seemed to be kind of odd as well

Anyone who mentions Shakespeare will get a .50 in their ass

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:59 PM

JAYTEE

This reminds me of the book and movie The Lathe of Heaven written by Ursula LeGuin. The main character, George Orr, has the ability to alter reality in his dreams. While most people think he's crazy his psychiatrist discovers he truly can alter reality and they start using his "gift" to change reality for the "better". Using hypnosis the psychiatrist tells George Orr to dream of a world without racial bigotry where everyone sees everyone else as an equal. When he awakes everyone's skin color is grey. I always thought a good sequel to this would be to have the same psychiatrist or another one use hypnosis to make George dream of a world with no annoying people. When George awakes he finds himself in a new altered reality with no Christian fundamentalists, no Muslim extremists, no Hare Krishnas, no Scientoligists and no IRS. Also all the politicians are suddenly the opposite of what they used to be, i.e. honest and ethical and dedicated to actually serving the public instead of big business and their ass kissing lobbyists.

Jaytee

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 2:28 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by JayTee:
The main character, George Orr, has the ability to alter reality in his dreams.

Hey, I can also do that! Only in my case the effects on reality seem to wear off once I wake up, and nobody seems to notice that anything was different. I'm still working on the details.

But on a more serious note...

Quote:
Originally posted by JayTee:
Using hypnosis the psychiatrist tells George Orr to dream of a world without racial bigotry where everyone sees everyone else as an equal. When he awakes everyone's skin color is grey.

I disagree with a better world meaning everybody should look the same. I enjoy having blacks and browns and whites and Orientals and whatevers around me. The problem lies in the way some people react to different races, not the races themselves, so changing everybody in order to have harmony is basically the same as giving the bigots what they want.

I'd like to point out that colour-blindness and wishing everybody looked equal does not make somebody a better person. There's a difference between respecting diversity and pretending it's not there. Just another case of people thinking that some homogenised McWorld is better than what we've got. But here's the problem: that ain't so!

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 3:04 PM

DC4BS

Having a box of 64 Crayons is WONDERFULL!

Unless they are all the same color brown. Then it's prety boring.

May as well just use a #2 pencil...

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 3:30 PM

FURTHURCAT

luke skywalker's father was a really white guy(hayden christensen)and then when he turned evil he was a black guy(james earl jones),and then when he redeemed himself and died he was a white guy(some old guy) again. that's some racial sh** for sure!

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Friday, December 2, 2005 9:14 AM

JAYTEE

When I described the book/movie I should have been more specific. There was supposed to be a sense of irony to the changes that occurred. George Orr didn't want everyone to look alike and have the same skin color. He just wanted a world without bigotry. I too love the diversity of life. I love the fact that not all people are pasty white freckled redheads like myself. I have many friends I dearly love and some are white, some are black and two are asian. In the book I described it became apparent that everytime he tried to change things for the better it only seemed like it was but the solution was actually worse. Making everyone look the same is not the solution I'd want. Making everyone accept and embrace differnces in appearance, beliefs and customs is what I'd ideally like to see in the world buy I'm a cynic. I believe that at least 70% of the human race are unthinking dolts that react with their instincts instead of the rational intellect God gave each of us. But I can't change the rest of the world. As Gandhi said, "Be the change you wish to see in the world." When someone around me makes a racial slur or some tasteless mysogynist joke I don't just go along with it. I get right up in their face and start questioning their parentage etc. I make it clear that I'm someone they'd be lucky to have as a friend and someone they should fear making an enemy of so they'd better change their tune or stay the hell out of my gunsight.

Jaytee

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Friday, December 2, 2005 9:39 AM

HANS

This is not anything in relation to Firefly, but is relevant to the lighter/darker skin observation. One rare counter example to the "darker skin means bad guy" argument is the late, great, TV series Homicide. Both Yaphet Kotto and Andre Braugher are fairly dark skinned men with prominent "african" features, and both played lead characters that were definitely good guys, and their characters were probably the smartest and most moral ones on that show.

Ah, Homicide. In this wasteland of "CSI" crap I really miss you...

Hans

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Friday, December 2, 2005 9:46 AM

NELLIE

I agree completely---I also wondered why there were no Chinese people in the show, only their language. Since the show is international, it would also have been nice to see someone representing the third most widely spoken language in the world: 1st is Chinese, 2nd is English, and the 3rd is Spanish. Maybe in the sequel?

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Friday, December 2, 2005 10:36 AM

VERMIN

An interesting discussion on the subject of race in the show. Here's me sounding off:

In "Finding Serenity" there's actually an essay that talks about the lack of oriental folk in the show. I forget the essay title, or who wrote it, but they made a few plausible points.

Namely, we're operating under the principle that there was some larger scheme going on to explain it to us at a later date, but since the show got cancelled so early, it's hard to say what it was.

Thus, some hypothesis:

It's been a long time since the Anglo-Sino alliance was formed (possibly even almost five hundred years) so, like many other institutions, it's realistic to say that things have changed since the original deal. So, while China started out strong, and was strong enough to distinctly flavor overall culture, at some point, the culture fell from power. Thus, you have a Chinese flavor, but not a strong Chinese presence in the 'verse.

Or, between the two, Chinese have the power, prestige, and money. So, when you take a bunch of ruffians flying around the less-than-wholesome parts of space, it's not so likely that they'll encounter many of the elite Chinese folk, though elements of Chinese culture will be pretty prevalent throughout their world-especially cursewords

So, simple solution: geography.

Of the two, the second seems a bit more likely based on evidence in the show, and the fact that more prestigious characters-i.e. Inara show a stronger Chinese influence (like being Buddhist instead of Christian) than the characters who're lower class.

Either way, from what I've read/seen I have to go with the idea that Joss had a plan.

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Friday, December 2, 2005 10:42 AM

VERMIN

With regard to the black/white issue, I think the fact that two of the most impressive villians-Jubal and the Operative-are dark skinned is more of an anti-racial statement than if they'd been, say Irish.

Racist spin: black skin = evil, thus all villians are dark. With Niska, Badger, etc. we can see this isn't the case.

Politically correct spin: don't cast a black as a villian, that's stereotyping, and all black folk are really (insert fluffy p.c. stuff). Thus, I guess we have to look at "white" folk as ethnic inferiors.

Either way, you're lumping people into a larger group and making assumptions about them because of a superficial quality-skin color.

I think that's why you see neither in Firefly/Serenity. Joss has made a point of wanting the best person he can find to play a part, period. Yes, Jubal was a villian, and a little nuts, but his was a hard role to pull off. The fact that they chose a dark skinned actor to play the role is a testament to his acting skill, nothing else. Same goes for the Operative, that was a demanding role and the actor chosen did an excellent job with it.

So, why did they choose these actors to play these villians? Because they were the best actors the crew could find.

I mean, heck, if you want to really worry about ethnic representation in the show-where are the Mexicans?

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Friday, December 2, 2005 3:25 PM

JAYTEE

Yaphet Kotto is a great actor. He seems to be doing more TV and less movies lately. He was great in Live and Let Die, Alien and the Running Man. I haven't seen Andre Brauer in too many things but I liked him in City of Angels and his performance was really good. One of my favorite black actors is Keith David. He's in Armageddon, Platoon and a several other movies.

Jaytee

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Friday, December 2, 2005 4:23 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by vermin:
With regard to the black/white issue,

I don't think anybody disagrees with what you're saying, but the point of the discussion wasn't a black/white thing or that blacks got cast as bad guys.

The point was that dark-skinned blacks were generally (pretty much exclusively) "bad" and light-skinned blacks generally (pretty much exclusively) "good", and there wasn't an issue with it, it was just something that River6312 pointed out. But then some people made it into an issue by saying "You people are making an issue out of this! Can't you see past colour!?". Sometimes people like to feel self-righteous by labelling other people as narrow-minded without taking the time to see what the point of the discussion actually is, and that's where this thread kind of lost the plot. Somewhere along the line the whole black/white thing got mixed into this, which was off topic, but there you go. Guess I should have seen it coming.

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Friday, December 2, 2005 5:14 PM

GIXXER

Seems like utter nonsense to me.

The best actors got the roles, and who gives a stuff what race they are?

Making Simon and River Chinese for the sake of homogeneity is tokenism of the first water. Go down that road, and pretty soon you'll be replacing Jayne because the Inuit are seriously unrepresented.

River would inevitably have been a (yawn) martial arts expert. I prefer the laying waste to everything in sight approach myself. Far more visceral than the sterile Martial Law stuff.

Simon being nerdy and rubbish at pulling would just have just reduced him to another Harry Kim. Horrible thought.

I'd have to say everyone is pretty much perfect as they are.

For the sake of political correctness, would you honestly sacrifice the chance of seeing Sean, Summer and everyone else being just completely groovy on every possible level? I certainly wouldn't.

G

The temptation to do sig. over and over in 8 languages is strong, but happily for you, not irresistible.

(I could do it, but the only text handy is from the council, describing the bin collection schedule over Christmas.)

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Friday, December 2, 2005 5:36 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by Gixxer:
Making Simon and River Chinese for the sake of homogeneity is tokenism of the first water. Go down that road, and pretty soon you'll be replacing Jayne because the Inuit are seriously unrepresented.

Oh God, where was it ever said that Simon and River should be Chinese because of political correctness!? It was said that they should be Chinese because 'verse is supposed to have a lot of Chinese influence and also, presumably, more than a few Chinese people in it. It's the apparent lack of Chinese people in the 'verse, not the lack of Chinese people in the cast, that's bothering some people.

But you and some other people missed the point of the discussion and I don't think you care what the actual point is, so never mind.

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Friday, December 2, 2005 5:37 PM

RIVER6213

Spoken like the true, assured-filled just,arrogance of the common citizens of The Earth-That-Was.

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Saturday, December 3, 2005 11:07 AM

GIXXER

Oops. Seem to have struck a nerve. Sorry.

Let me rephrase.

It's fiction. It's a TV Show. It's not worth getting worked up about. (OK, it is, but you know what I mean...)

It was, in my opinion, pretty much perfect as it was, and I honestly can't think of any recasting or changes that wouldn't have detracted from it.

Honestly, that's it. Everything. All. Nothing more. My panties remain unbunched, even by grammar or malapropism.

G

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Saturday, December 3, 2005 11:32 AM

MER

I don't think it is. The people who were behind casting left it open. So anybody no matter what race or creed they were could have read for the Firefly cast we love and know.

Actually there are chinese people, just not in the main cast. Joss kind of wanted at least one in there, but he felt that the gang read better.

Plus there's Gunn from Angel who's dark skin and good. Despite his faults. I understand them, I dunno if anybody else does. Oh and there's the Principal from Buffy season 7.

Joss is a total sweet heart (judging from interviews and how he handles fans) so I don't think he's one to do a bigoted thing. But, it's a good point to bring up to him to see his views on it.

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Saturday, December 3, 2005 12:49 PM

RIVER6213

Gixxer said:
Oops. Seem to have struck a nerve. Sorry.

Let me rephrase.

It's fiction. It's a TV Show. It's not worth getting worked up about. (OK, it is, but you know what I mean...)

It was, in my opinion, pretty much perfect as it was, and I honestly can't think of any recasting or changes that wouldn't have detracted from it.

Honestly, that's it. Everything. All. Nothing more. My panties remain unbunched, even by grammar or malapropism.

G
-------------------------------------------------

Worked up about? lol! No nerves were struck in the slightest, and there is no reason to get upset about anything; Its just opinions and observations, nothing more than that, and in this here 'verse, there are no absolutes (except for death and taxes) and I suppose one's perspective is formed by which side of the Plaza one chooses to view life from.

Your opinion, which I do respect, just didnt go down too well with the saki I was sampling when I wrote that post.

Christmas is gonna be so expensive this year.

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Saturday, December 3, 2005 2:56 PM

GIXXER

That's just great. I don't do falling out with anyone. Or at least not deliberate like.

Christmas may be expensive, but at least it's going to be easier than usual. No more of that "What'll I get them?" stress. And you can leave it to the 24th as well before you venture out into shopping hell.

(Previous lazy man's surefire choices were "The Big Lebowski" or the Firth / Ehle "Pride and Prejudice.")

G

It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife. It is similarly acknowledged that should he wish to retain good title to said fortune he should never kiss 'em on the mouth.

Jayne Austen

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