Serenity opens at #5 in Germany—All now depends on DVD by StakeTheLurk

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Serenity opens at #5 in Germany—All now depends on DVD

POSTED BY: STAKETHELURK
UPDATED: Thursday, December 1, 2005 13:25
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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 5:47 AM

The BDM has finally opened in what’s probably the last big overseas market (Japan has cancelled distribution), and it hasn’t been doing so great (see: http://whedonesque.com/comments/8868). Here’s what Gossi, a poster at Whedonesque with contacts at Universal and UIP, had to say:

Quote:
Originally posted by gossi on Whedonesque:
Reuters report places it 5th with $406759 USD.

Which is better than 9th, but still quite bad. Apparently parts of Germany had very bad weather this weekend which will have effected the outcome (snow storms).

By the way, if anybody is in Japan, I believe the distributor is planning to do a one off cinema screening for fans in December as a thank you.

I've spoken to people from both Universal and UIP over the last few days, the general feeling they give is that they need to DVD to go internationally #1 now to secure a sequel, so if anybody has any idea how to achieve that, I'm all ears.

In good news, also, it appears Blockbuster US is planning to carry Serenity now.

…

Total is $36m'ish at mo. I think it'll finish around $38m in terms of box office, which is about on target with estimates from a while ago.

Looks like it's down to the DVD, like we’ve suspected for a while. But Serenity hasn’t even hit #1 in the US yet, much less internationally. Like Gossi said, if anyone’s got an idea how to do this, please speak up now.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:02 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Some one formulate an idea how many each Browncoat will have to purchase to do this, and then give us our marching orders and we'll pick up and carry for folks that can't buy that many and we'll keep trying to convert as many new Browncoats as we possibly can. That is all I know to do and I'm willing. I'm purchasing at least 4 of the BDM DVD's now, but I can up that.... by at least 4 more. I know there are folks out there who are gonna be lucky to get 1 for Christmas, so let us know and we'll all try to pick up slack as we can. I know there are other Browncoats who will be purchasing several and maybe quite a few. We'll just have to all work together. And there will be new converts along.... this fanbase is growing... all you have to do is notice the newbies joining our ranks.

I've made up my mind that I'm going to buy "Firefly" for my local video store ( little store, known the owner all my life- everyone in my town goes there) and have them rent it. Also going to get one for my local library and donate it. That will bring in converts.
Then I'll do the same with the movie.

I read somewhere on a thread that "Wonder Woman" should do quite well for Universal ( I agree with that by the way) and I think that will have some influence with the powers that be, too.

This isn't over yet... I believe.

"You want to meet the real me now?" Mal

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:16 AM

STAKETHELURK

By my own calculations, every browncoat needs to buy at least three copies of the BDM--but not everyone will actually purchase that much so by all means buy as many as you feel appropriate!

While a successful Wonder Woman might give Joss some extra clout, the effect on Universal will be diminished by the fact that Wonder Woman is not a Universal pic, but rather is funded by Warner Brothers.

I've been hammering this for months ( http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14173), but I'll say it again: The DVD will not be successful if we sit idly by hoping it does well--we have to make it successful by buying multiple copies, spreading guerrilla marketing (and the R. Tam Sessions), and by continuing to convert as many as possible. We have to sell an enormous amount of DVDs--and we haven't even beat the record set by Firefly yet (which made it to #1 at Amazon on preorders alone).

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 8:32 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Keep hammering it StakeTheLurk, I'm listening and so will others.

I just went to Amazon and changed my order to 8... and I called my Mom and she is ordering some ( I hope 3) for Christmas gifts now. I convinced her that some of the folks on her list will like this much better than what she had down. She's a new fan too, by the way.

All the folks that worked so hard to get us the BDM started this, we'll ALL just have to keep moving forward.

I'm writing some more letters tonight too. I've written one each to Universal and SciFi, but I'm going to keep it up. It can't hurt for them to hear how much we love this 'verse, or how appreciative we are to them for taking this chance for us, or how much more we want another movie.

I'm going to call my daughter, she's young, a new fan, very motivated and she'll rally some support among her friends to order the DVD.
If she hasn't already done it.

I don't think it's a good spot, sir.
She still has the advantage over us. ZOE

Everyone always does.
That's what makes us special. MAL

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:41 PM

CUB

Please God don't let there be a sequel!

This franchise belongs on TV or nowhere at all. Period. Hopefully the right people will get that message from the mediocre reception for the movie.

I'll buy one copy of the movie on DVD, but I bought 12 copies of the Firefly set. And I'll probably buy more.

Die, Serenity! Die!!

---

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak."

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:54 PM

20THCENTFOXHATER

Quote:
Please God don't let there be a sequel!

This franchise belongs on TV or nowhere at all. Period. Hopefully the right people will get that message from the mediocre reception for the movie.

If a movie sequel is all we get, then we should be grateful. A TV series would obviously be better, but I wouldn't complain if there's only movies from now on.

"I aim to misbehave."

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 3:57 PM

NELLIE

That's wonderful that Gossi has contacts at Universal, and I hope he will ask them two things:
1) Of course Japan has cancelled distribution, and the screening will be a disaster, because Japan has been in huge diplomatic conflicts with China recently over the atrocities Japan committed there in WWII, and Japan hates anything Chinese right now (I know because I live in China). Why didn't Universal distribute it in China and Hong Kong, because of the Chinese language used in it? Which one is the bigger market, do they think: China or the island of Japan?
2) Why don't they investigate the way the film Serenity was promoted, for example, in Spain, where after the film opened to excellent critical reviews there, the promoters showed it at only ONE cinema in Barcelona, and a few tiny towns, while maybe not at all in Madrid? It didn't do well because it wasn't shown at the cinemas.
3) Why is the DVD opening in Germany before the USA, or am I mistaken about that? I don't understand!

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 5:41 PM

VOLANGENERAL

This is a crazy idea but how about holding the telvision companies at gun point. Theres enough of us they can't arrest us all

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:04 PM

NELLIE

Sorry! I should have read the Whedonesque comments first! I thought the film had completely closed everywhere now, and the DVD was coming soon. Yes, I know: Woman a complete prat...

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:16 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Hopefully the right people will get that message from the mediocre reception for the movie.

Unlikely. If the movie does poorly, the ‘verse is dead on any screen. Dead. Why? Because “Firefly” was and still largely is considered a failure by the industry. The movie was the second chance to prove everyone wrong, to prove that the ‘verse had a market. If it had done well, suddenly there would have been a whole flurry of interest in the film. Everyone would want a peace of the pie. But the movie hasn’t done well. Studios don’t throw good money after bad. Or at least they don’t back a proven loser. Sci-fi won’t start up a series; it’s too expensive and besides the first show and its movie failed. Fox will just sit and let the money keep trickling in from the “Firefly” DVD. I think the ‘verse belongs on TV, too, but it ain’t gonna happen unless the Big Damn Movie does Big Damn Well on DVD. So, glad you’re gonna buy a copy of the film. You support Serenity and the chances of a return to TV improve.

Quote:
I hope he will ask them two things

Nellie, I really don’t see what the cancellation of the film distribution in Japan has to do with the simmering feud between Japan and China (and the rest of East Asia). Odds are UIP Japan simply decided it would be more profitable to go direct to DVD. As for why there is no opening in the China or Hong Kong, that is due to the massive pirating that occurs there. It’s just not profitable to pay for film reels and theater space and advertising, when anyone who wants to see the film has already seen it or can buy a copy on the street for little money. That’s why Japan is seen as the bigger market, because there’s less piracy there. As for whether the Chinese dialogue would have turned viewers away, I doubt it. There’s, like, five lines of Chinese in the whole film--and plenty of written Japanese. I don’t think that’s enough to get most people to blow off a whole movie, especially when most of them won’t even know about it going in. Oh, and I’ve no idea when Germany is getting the DVD, certainly not before the US.

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:29 PM

CUB

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
If the movie does poorly, the ‘verse is dead on any screen. Dead. Why? Because “Firefly” was and still largely is considered a failure by the industry.

So you're saying that it means nothing when the Firefly series DVD set - years after its release - is still topping the Amazon charts?

It means nothing when Firefly is still one of the best-selling DVDs of any kind right now, far outpacing the brand-new (and much less expensive) Serenity movie DVD in sales?

You can't tell me no one in Hollywood notices that. It's obvious that the TV series has a kind of appeal that the movie did not, and people are saying so with their wallets.

Don't get me wrong - the movie was worthwhile. It led a lot of people to discover the TV series.

---

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak."

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Wednesday, November 30, 2005 10:27 PM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

I plan on buying 4 copies (Christmas presents) and one to donate to my library. Great Idea!

Can anybody think of other places we could donate copies to? I worked at a nursing home for a short time and I know they won't let the residents watch anything that not "HAPPY". So thats out,....does anybody know if hospitals could use a copy? Think people

! where else can we give copies to????

...it's worst than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:02 AM

NELLIE

Quote:
due to the massive pirating that occurs there

Well, you're certainly right about the pirating, but the govt. is really trying hard to crack down on it now, even in our little town deep in the interior. I'm in two minds about it, though, because the price of a "real" DVD is a student's eating money for a month here, which means only the wealthiest people will be able to watch movies if the crackdown succeeds.
Thanks for explaining things---I really appreciate the chance to share opinions with others about this. I don't know why I should care so much about the success of this film which I've never seen---Joss & his Firefly crew seem to inspire astonishing loyalty in us ordinary folk.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:20 AM

QUIETUDE

Firstly all you Guerrilla marketers out there, I think you have done a fine job. However, I have never seen a more badly advertised movie here in England than Serenity. Viral marketing may have worked for the Blair Witch Project but it is way out of date now. I just bought the German version of Firefly for a mate in Krefeld Germany and he is really enjoying it. However the Firefly DVD set was only released a month ago in Germany, so no one is going to really know the series there, so I don't expect spectacular ticket sales for the movie.

The adverts that were done for the movie only showed on the sci-fi channel, which would have been seen only by people who already new the show. They missed a golden opportunity to go on 'Friday Night with Jonathan Ross' who I am sure would have been happy to see them as Mr. Ross loved the movie.

Instead they had some of the cast go on boring old GMTV, which airs when everyone has already gone to work or school. Who ever did the marketing here in the U.K, really didn't know what they were doing, and the movie somehow reached number one, but if done properly it would have been there for much longer as there was nothing good on at the cinema besides it.

What I would like to see happen now is to really advertise the DVD of the movie in newspapers, on websites (if that’s possible), in Sci-Fi magazines, and cost permitting on the TV on BBC (equivalent type channels in other countries) not on a digitally scrambled TV station that only the enlightened watch. As the movie has already been in the Theatres they could show more of it to truly entice new viewers to see it, and look past the ridiculously busy DVD cover they have created. However due to the poor advertising (not the browncoats) and mediocre ticket sales there is likely going to be only a small budget for marketing the DVD.

Such a shame, Jewel may have got closure with being able to make this movie after the cancelled TV series, but I will miss it a hell of a lot, there were so many stories that weren’t told. Don’t get me wrong when and if they make another movie I am sure Jewel will step up and reprise her roll, I am not knocking her, it’s just something she said at the recent Starfury event.

You know I always wonder whether Joss tells the cast what statements to make in regards to the movie, the idea of him pulling the strings in the background to rally us troops really agrees with me.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 2:27 AM

GWIZ

Hello all,

I don't recall seeing any advertising for the Serenity movie in Boise, Idaho USA, and had never watched the Firefly series. I went to see Serenity after reading the description on Edward Cinemas on-line showtime listing. It sounded interesting and after watching it I was of course hooked.

A few days later I went to see it again with several friends and they were also impressed. I've talked with a lot of people and most have said they've seen the movie so word of mouth seems to have performed better than any paid advertising.

It was bittersweet to learn the movie Serenity originated from the TV series Firefly since the series was prematurely canceled. I'm in the process of catching up on all of the episodes at the moment. I found it it amazing the series was as good as the movie and vis versa.

Which brings me to wonder why it was ever canceled in the first place? The concept was origional, had a great cast with loads of opportunity for side stories, excellent believeable spacial special effects and the potential to rival other long term space faring series.

But without dwelling on the why, I'd like to know if there is any news of revitalizing the series or hope a sequel to Serenity (which was thankfully left wide open).

What can one more person do to help?

Gwiz

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 4:49 AM

QUIETUDE

Hi Gwiz,

Mainly fans of Firefly Universe will lend out there DVD sets to friends and colleagues to get them interested in the series. I have lost count on how many times I have lent my copy out. This will also be true for the Serenity DVD, which you can already pre-order in the States with its release date of 20th of December via Amazon.com. Of course a sequel now seems to hang on the knife edge of the DVD sales for the movie, so you could purchase several copies and give as Xmas presents to help make it hit No.1 in the charts. Hopefully the people you give it to will also get this movie and go back for the TV box set like you did.

In regards to why the show was cancelled, there were several reasons:

1. It was put in a time slot that was late in the evening, more than likely against established programs with lots of viewers.
2. They never aired the original pilot also called 'Serenity', but started with Train Job.
3. Due to this people viewing the program had a lot to sort out plot wise that the 2 hour pilot explained perfectly.
4. They showed the episodes out of sequence again baffling the viewer.
5. Finally they canceled it due to viewing figures although they were constantly growing but at a slow rate.
6. In the end they did show the original pilot but the show was already cancelled by that stage.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 5:21 AM

CONTINUUM

I think stright to DVD movies has a future, especially with all the hype around selling shows on the Internet. If Universal is smart, they'll be the first to offer an Internet-only hit series.

The Trio cable channle is going off cable and becoming the first Internet-only network, perhaps they'll pick it up.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 5:29 AM

TOMANTA

DVD sales will go like this. There will be a huge rush on the release date. It might hit Number 1 for that week; there's nothing big out. But it's also right before Christmas, so a lot of the big big big DVD releases for the last year will also see a boost in sales.

After that, sales will drop but will probably remain steady like the Firefly DVD has. (Side note... I was in Best Buy a few days before Thanksgiving and they had about 8 copies of the Firefly DVD on the shelf. That's the first time I've ever seen more than 2... and it's more copies than they usually have of any TV show that's not a new release. Either someone at the store is a huge fan or there are people that notice how well it is selling).

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 7:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Quietude:
Hi Gwiz,

In regards to why the show was cancelled, there were several reasons:

1. It was put in a time slot that was late in the evening, more than likely against established programs with lots of viewers.
2. They never aired the original pilot also called 'Serenity', but started with Train Job.
3. Due to this people viewing the program had a lot to sort out plot wise that the 2 hour pilot explained perfectly.
4. They showed the episodes out of sequence again baffling the viewer.
5. Finally they canceled it due to viewing figures although they were constantly growing but at a slow rate.
6. In the end they did show the original pilot but the show was already cancelled by that stage.

----------------

You also forgot to mention they pre-empted the show a number of times during its short run for sports events. That also made the viewers lose track of when it was on and what was going on.

I just introduced 2 new people last weekend to Firefly and they couldn't get enough!! So now they will get their own copies of the movie and the series for the holidays!

---------
"See, this is another sign of your tragic space dementia, all paranoid and crotchety. Breaks the heart."

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 8:14 AM

RONSWHARLEY

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
The BDM has finally opened in what’s probably the last big overseas market (Japan has cancelled distribution), and it hasn’t been doing so great (see: http://whedonesque.com/comments/8868). Here’s what Gossi, a poster at Whedonesque with contacts at Universal and UIP, had to say:

Quote:
Originally posted by gossi on Whedonesque:
Reuters report places it 5th with $406759 USD.

Which is better than 9th, but still quite bad. Apparently parts of Germany had very bad weather this weekend which will have effected the outcome (snow storms).

By the way, if anybody is in Japan, I believe the distributor is planning to do a one off cinema screening for fans in December as a thank you.

I've spoken to people from both Universal and UIP over the last few days, the general feeling they give is that they need to DVD to go internationally #1 now to secure a sequel, so if anybody has any idea how to achieve that, I'm all ears.

In good news, also, it appears Blockbuster US is planning to carry Serenity now.

…

Total is $36m'ish at mo. I think it'll finish around $38m in terms of box office, which is about on target with estimates from a while ago.
Looks like it's down to the DVD, like we’ve suspected for a while. But Serenity hasn’t even hit #1 in the US yet, much less internationally. Like Gossi said, if anyone’s got an idea how to do this, please speak up now.

Serenity sure would make a nice chrismas present for alot of friends.Every little bet helps

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 8:22 AM

KAI

Quote:
Originally posted by Cub:
So you're saying that it means nothing when the Firefly series DVD set - years after its release - is still topping the Amazon charts?

It means nothing when Firefly is still one of the best-selling DVDs of any kind right now, far outpacing the brand-new (and much less expensive) Serenity movie DVD in sales?

If it meant more than nothing, I imagine we'd have seen a ressurection of the television property by now. As you say, it's been years. Fox let Joss ship it around to all the different networks, they all passed. I don't think they're gonna change their minds at this point.

Quote:
You can't tell me no one in Hollywood notices that.

They surely did, and that's what led to Serenity getting made. Which, as you pointed out, didn't do as hot as a lot of people, including the Hollywood folks who helped get the movie made, had hoped it would. People in Hollywood notice things like that, too. The moral they're going to take away from this story is that Firefly, in any form, isn't the sort of thing they want to throw money behind. Firefly the series cost about two million dollars per episode, which means for a 20-some-odd episode season you're looking at $40+ million, even more than the movie.

I, too, would greatly love the show to return to the air, for Joss to finish the first season up the way he wanted to, move into a second season like nothing happened, and delicious candy to rain from the sky. But I really, truly believe that Firefly is not coming back in televised episodic form no matter how well the DVDs sell at this point.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 8:43 AM

GUN4HIRE

As much as I would love to see a new season of Firefly, I tend to agree with most of the people. Other than us browncoats, the world just isn't that interested in it. Maybe its because I'm in a bad mood, but I don't see a shiny ending to all this. However I plan to buy at least 4 Serenity DVDs for Christmas. I'm trying to keep the faith. My only consolation is that I've converted two people to Firefly.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 10:14 AM

LSUTIGER83

Hello to all...

Just a week ago I had a friend of mine allow me to borrow her copy of the Firefly DVD set. I had never heard of the series at all until this point, and was rather skeptical of it. Needless to say once I watched the pilot, I was hooked and got into a rush to watch the rest of the short series, and even going to see the movie Serenity just last night in Sacramento... This is probably a story you`ve all heard at least a dozen times a piece, but now im a huge fan of this series, and I had never really had an interest in sci-fi stories much at all before.

As I read your posts from earlier, I can see the devotion you all have to the survival of the story, and I have to admit that I want to see it come through just as much. I felt a kind of sadness when I watched the last episode of the set and realized that maybe not even another movie could be made...

I realize that ive only been a fan of this series for about a week now, so I dont think I consider myself as loyal as the rest of you, but id like to help you all with keeping the hope alive. As it is, I showed a few episodes of the borrowed set to my best friend, and he as well became interested, even going to see the movie too yesterday and bringing his girlfriend. Im going to close this now with the hope that the DVD sales and all the other efforts put forth by everyone will be enough to keep even the small flame of Firefly alive, so that we can all continue the story...

---

Screw Fox for cancelling this and Family Guy... I really hope Firefly comes back to bite them in the ass the same way that Family Guy did...

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 10:33 AM

MATTIE

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

(and the R. Tam Sessions)

Woah, woah, woah. Pray tell, what is this?

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 10:52 AM

PHILYBURKHILL

My thinking was that universal didn't want to spend to much on the advertising budget. They were relying on fans and DVD sales to recoup their money, they know the rabid fan base would recommend the film to everyone and anyone.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 10:53 AM

ACESANDEIGHTS

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattie:
Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

(and the R. Tam Sessions)

Woah, woah, woah. Pray tell, what is this?

http://www.session416.com/confirmed

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 11:44 AM

JUSTANOTHERMUDDER

Quote:
Originally posted by lsutiger83:
Hello to all...

Just a week ago I had a friend of mine allow me to borrow her copy of the Firefly DVD set. I had never heard of the series at all until this point, and was rather skeptical of it. Needless to say once I watched the pilot, I was hooked and got into a rush to watch the rest of the short series, and even going to see the movie Serenity just last night in Sacramento...

---

Screw Fox for cancelling this and Family Guy... I really hope Firefly comes back to bite them in the ass the same way that Family Guy did...

Posts like this are my favorite kind!

Just saying.

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon

JustAnotherMudder=NYPinTA Goodness.

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:15 PM

GIRLASKEW

Most of the DVD places, Best Buy above all, seriously beef up their DVD sections around Chirstmas. I know at my local BB they were out last time I looked. Perhaps I do need to buy another one to lend to people, I don't want mine leaving the house. I need my daily fix! :0)

Some people juggle geese!

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Quote:
Originally posted by philyburkhill:
My thinking was that universal didn't want to spend to much on the advertising budget. They were relying on fans and DVD sales to recoup their money, they know the rabid fan base would recommend the film to everyone and anyone.

I think it was foolish and just plain downright greedy of them to expect the fans to carry so much of the promo load on a movie they put so much money into.

They didn't promote it hardly at all, and then whine cause it didn't do well ?

I am still quite annoyed with that, and rate it right up there with the f*x decision to air the eps out of order.

If you're gonna half-sabotage it right out of the gate, you CAN'T expect something to do well, that's ridiculous.

Let's be 100% honest here, Universal fumbled the ball here, not us.

-Frem

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:38 PM

BIX

Quote:
Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Quote:
Originally posted by philyburkhill:
My thinking was that universal didn't want to spend to much on the advertising budget. They were relying on fans and DVD sales to recoup their money, they know the rabid fan base would recommend the film to everyone and anyone.

I think it was foolish and just plain downright greedy of them to expect the fans to carry so much of the promo load on a movie they put so much money into.

They didn't promote it hardly at all, and then whine cause it didn't do well ?

I am still quite annoyed with that, and rate it right up there with the f*x decision to air the eps out of order.

If you're gonna half-sabotage it right out of the gate, you CAN'T expect something to do well, that's ridiculous.

Let's be 100% honest here, Universal fumbled the ball here, not us.

-Frem

You are so very right!

Word of mouth can only do so much. I went to see the movie on a whim and was hooked and went straight out and bought the box set of the series. But up until then I knew nothing of the franchise.

As the saying goes ... 'It pays to advertise.'

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Thursday, December 1, 2005 1:25 PM

LSUTIGER83

Quote:
Originally posted by JustAnotherMudder:
Quote:
Originally posted by lsutiger83:
Hello to all...

Just a week ago I had a friend of mine allow me to borrow her copy of the Firefly DVD set. I had never heard of the series at all until this point, and was rather skeptical of it. Needless to say once I watched the pilot, I was hooked and got into a rush to watch the rest of the short series, and even going to see the movie Serenity just last night in Sacramento...

---

Screw Fox for cancelling this and Family Guy... I really hope Firefly comes back to bite them in the ass the same way that Family Guy did...

Posts like this are my favorite kind! Just saying.

"Always be yourself. Unless you suck." Joss Whedon

JustAnotherMudder=NYPinTA Goodness.

Well thanks for saying.

I just ordered two box sets from amazon... Im going to give one to my Dad for christmas...

Im also going to go and get 2 copies of Serenity on the 20th... Every little bit helps...

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