Firefly and the Heinlein Connection. by Ruthie

I must admit I've read WAY more Fantasy than hard core Sci Fi, but I've made up my mind. I'm gonna start reading me some Heinlein!

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 11:13 AM

MARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruthie:
I almost feel that Firefly would fit neatly into Heinlein's "Future History" - a bit of the history not told in it's specifics by Heinlein himself, perhaps, but a period during which Lazarus Long was fliting round the galaxy trying to keep one step ahead of the authorities - he wouldn't like the Alliance any more than the Serenity's crew does!

I'm a long-time Heinlein fan... I don't like everything he's done but some, like 'Moon is a Harsh Mistress', 'Space Cadet', 'Starship Troopers' and 'Number of the Beast' are amongst my favourite books.

As for the Alliance... RAH pretty much created the Alliance when he wrote 'Starship Troopers'... I mean, the Purple Bellies actually wear Fed uniforms from the MOVIE of ST!!

Slightly Nazi-istic... After all, the book was supposed to be a treatise on the subject of arming nations.

Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 11:22 AM

SERGEANTX

I saw a strong connection with Heinlein's point of view from the very first episode of Firefly. From the independent libertarian(librarian?) spirit, to the particular brand of feminism represented, even the way in which sex is handled, all are very much in line with the future stories of Heinlein. To Joss Whedon's credit, I think Firefly is more complete and the characters better developed in many ways, than many of Heinlein's... and Heinlein is without doubt my favorite science fiction author.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 11:32 AM

LERXST

Hmmm. I think Serenity needs a cat. They can borrow Sylvester, my attack cat. He don't walk thru walls tho.

_________________________________________________
Raspberry! Only one man would dare give me the raspberry...LONESTAR!!

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 11:41 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark:
As for the Alliance... RAH pretty much created the Alliance when he wrote 'Starship Troopers'... I mean, the Purple Bellies actually wear Fed uniforms from the MOVIE of ST!!

I have a friend how loves Heinlein more than myself and the only sure fire way to get her to raise her voice is mentioning Starship Troopers the movie. She is very adamant that people know that there is very little connection between that and the book.

When I read the book, after I had seen the movie, I found myself thinking that it would be nice if someone would make a movie out of it. Naturally the reason I thought this was because the movie didn’t qualify as an adaptation of it. I had the same felling about the Bourne Identity.

(I’m not saying either of these movies were bad.)

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 12:48 PM

No, Ruthie, it's very appropo! whether Joss admits or no, 'Firefly' is pure Heinlein. Mal's anti-gov leanings, stubborn survivalism, canny business sense, homespun homilies, and always-armed habits are the very pic of Lazerus Long.

As for the other works of Heinlein that have made it to the silver screen, none have done justice to the books they were so loosely based on. 'Puppetmasters' is still one of the creepiest books I've ever read, and 'Starship Troopers' one of the most thought provoking for me.

I would dearly love to see 'Door Into Summer' done well.

Oh, and I want to date Hazel.

tanstaafl

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 2:37 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

I feel the same way, except I was a huge fan of the book for a long time. Then I watched the movie and hated it.

The script no way resembles the book, and to be honest I really dislike the work of this particular director. Everything he does looks like Robocop....

As for the Bourne Identity, loved the book ( as well as most other Ludlum novels ) but also liked the movie. Two seperate works, but felt both were well crafted and enjoyable.

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:05 PM

RIVERSIDE

Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 4:40 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Riverside:
Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

I just looked up the word "misogynistic" because I was sure I misunderstood you. Unless you used the word wrong I didn't.

I haven’t read nearly as much Heinlien as most of you but I never saw anything to suggest his works showed anything other than totally equally treatment of women. In Starship Trooper the narrator repeatedly pointed out how in several areas women were better than men, if you think its wrong that he also show places where men are better than women I hate to break it to you but it’s true. The diffrence is chemical, not genetic like people thought in the past (a female child born of a mother injected with testosterone would be classified as male with respect to these differences.)

Still even if he had been completely sexist it would still be a stretch to call him misogynistic. That is very harsh nd I have seen no evidence of it at all.

He was a chauvinist, but not a male chauvinist, a human chauvinist. That includes women if you didn’t notice.

I am forced to wonder if you have really read his works.

His writings have been described as having feminism by more people than just the Sergeant. As I said my friend loves Heinlein, and she would never stand for sexism (for or against women.)

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I saw a strong connection with Heinlein's point of view from the very first episode of Firefly. From ... the particular brand of feminism represented

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

Feminism is defined as the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.

I find it ironic that the loudest of the Feminists do not believe in this.

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Saturday, June 28, 2003 6:34 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Considering that more of Heinlein's work was written 1955-1965, I would say he was a pioneer for the Feminist movement. He wrote of an equality from a perspective of his day. It may seem rather dated today but back then... it was new stuff completely.

Some of the best parts of Starship Trooper were the discussions of social order, the duties of a citizen, here Heinlein apllied no boundaries to sex or race.

In a Cat that walks through walls, the main character is saved repeatedly by women from the future acting in combat roles.

Love his work, or not so much I don't think you can rightly say misogynistic.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:44 AM

Riverside, did you have to look up misogynistic? Or maybe you should have? Or maybe you should actually READ some Heinlein before bashing?

I don't approve of public rudeness (something Heinlein's characters helped teach me), but I see no other way to address your post.

Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult. Second, your creepy belief that you know Joss Whedon's innermost self well enough to compare him to anyone is, well, creepy...and thouroughly unconvincing. Third, and to me most important, Robert Anson Heinlein was and is one my Great Heros and I will brook no insult or put-downs.

And Chris? Type your damn posts in a wordprocessor program first, run the damn spellchecker, then paste it here, OK? I hate to share opinions with posts that look like yours.

tanstaafl

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:17 AM

On a happier note, I want to read some Heinlein, where do I start? I am a virgin.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:20 AM

CAPTAINMAL

wulf, with respect, if Chris' post is too poorly spelled for your standards, I don't know how you exist on message boards. His writing might not be perfect but his thoughts are perfectly understandable and coherent.

If that post isn't up to your standards, you will spend a good deal of on-line time being disappointed.

Few people take the time and effort in what is designed to be casual conversation to run every post through a WP program to clean it up - I'm DARN certain I'm not going to.

And no doubt there are more errors in this post than in Chris'

Not saying you don't have a right to be bothered by it, just saying - don't get your hopes up that you're ever going to see others be cumpulsive enough to do what you suggest.

"Why we still discussin' this?"

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 10:44 AM

CAPTAINMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
On a happier note, I want to read some Heinlein, where do I start? I am a virgin.

The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -

Classic SF with plenty of Heinlein's unique style.

Glory Road -

The best marriage of classic Fantasy elements with hard SF I've ever seen.

Starship Troopers -

Good SF, heavy on philosiphizing

Stranger in a Strange Land -

Most notorious work, very libritarian sensibilities

The Unlplesent Proffesion of Jonathan Hoag (also released as "6 x H") -

A collection of short stories which includes several excellent stories, most noteably "All You Zombies" and "He Built a Crooked House"
[This one is, I understand, VERY hard to find]

Expanded Universe -

A collection of short stories, and also science fact articles, each with a personal introduction from RAH giving some background into the writing of the peice and what went on in his life between the works. For a true Heinlien fan it is an indespesible look "behind the scenes."
Worht noting is his forst story "Life Line", his first major Future History story "The Man Who Sold The Moon" and a couple of non-SF peices: "They Do It With Mirrors" and "No Bands Playing, No Flags Flying"

Number of The Beast -

Be warned: It's HUGE, and it is chock full of references to a variety of SF characters from his other works and the works of others. If you're not familiar with all these folks you miss 2/3 of the joy of the book.
Imagine the old saw about how "all the fictional characters ever writtien actually exist in some alternate universe" and then imagine these universes intersecting so that, for instance, Jim Kirk might find himself at common purpose with Malcolm Reynolds and Han Solo.
It's that sort of thing.

Also worth a mention:

Puppet Master
Sixth Column
Methuselah's Children
Farnham's Freehold

"Why we still discussin' this?"

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 11:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMal:
wulf, with respect, if Chris' post is too poorly spelled for your standards, I don't know how you exist on message boards. His writing might not be perfect but his thoughts are perfectly understandable and coherent.

I'm guessing it's really not about the spelling. It's the anti-ctcism that's contagious on this board. I've been trying to unravel the mystery for weeks.

When Chris the Cynic speaks, he gets attacked. Just look at his other previous posts.

???

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 11:14 AM

Thanks for the long post about Heinlein books. I copy/pasted to keep handy. I'm going to start with Heinlein as soon as I finish "In Conquest Born" by C.S. Friedman.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 11:33 AM

KAYTHRYN

Quote:
Posted by Wulf:
Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult…

And Chris? Type your damn posts in a wordprocessor program first, run the damn spellchecker, then paste it here, OK? I hate to share opinions with posts that look like yours.

Ditto. Wulfy, thanks for saying it.

Quote:
Posted by CaptainMal:
wulf, with respect, if Chris' post is too poorly spelled for your standards, I don't know how you exist on message boards….
Not saying you don't have a right to be bothered by it, just saying - don't get your hopes up that you're ever going to see others be cumpulsive enough to do what you suggest.

Everybody makes silly little mistakes, but it’s just common courtesy that if you are going to post a message you at least look over it and make sure it's readable. This isn’t like chat, you do have a moment to capitalize your sentences or add periods.

And Succatash, I recommend reading JOB. I didn’t even know I’d read any Heinlein until I started talking to someone about it and remembered this battered book I picked up during art one day. It was a great book and from what weirdness I know about you, I’d be right up your alley.

I loved it.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:

Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult. Second, your creepy belief that you know Joss Whedon's innermost self well enough to compare him to anyone is, well, creepy...and thouroughly unconvincing. Third, and to me most important, Robert Anson Heinlein was and is one my Great Heros and I will brook no insult or put-downs.

Okay, so if someone has a different interpretation of something than you do, you consider that an insult? Wow, you'd be a really fun person to have a literary discussion with. The thing about literature, as with all art, is that people have vastly different tastes and interpretations. Even scholars disagree on the meanings of novels; some brand Zora Neale Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God as degrading to women, while others praise it as an empowering feminist story.

Now, for the record, I agree with you. I've never detected anything resembling misogyny in Heinlein's work, quite the opposite in fact. However, that doesn't mean that I -- or anyone else, for that matter -- have the right to dismiss someone who disagrees with me as "uninformed" or accuse them of never having read Heinlein. Obviously, Riverside has a different opinion of Heinlein than you or I. That doesn't mean she's never read his work or that she's ignorant, and it certainly doesn't mean that she's insulting us. It just means that she sees different things in Heinlein's work than we do -- in this case, things that she doesn't like. Well, she's allowed to! The world would be boring if everyone had the same opinions on everything.

And tell me, where exactly did Riverside profess her "creepy belief" of knowing Joss Whedon's "innermost self"? She said nothing to this effect. She said:

Quote:
...I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

Not to mention that you seem to have some pretty strong feelings about Heinlein's character -- you are very quick to jump to the defense of your "Great Hero". Do you have some sort of special insight on Heinlein's "innermost self"?

I find it deliciously ironic that you bawl someone out for the "deadly insult" of daring to have an opinion different than yours. If anyone is being insulting, it is you. It seems that you haven't learned the difference between disagreement and disrespect, in which case I really do feel sorry for you, because people are not always going to agree with you -- believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there who don't like Heinlein -- and if you subject everyone who dares to voice a different opinion to this sort of ill-mannered tirade, you will not make a lot of friends.

My apologies to everyone else on the board for this post, which is hardly in a friendly spirit, but the one thing I cannot stand is a blatant and undeserved bashing of someone just because they expressed an opinion.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 12:56 PM

MARK

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMal:
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress -

Classic SF with plenty of Heinlein's unique style.

Absolutely! One of his best works if I may say so and, if you're ever planning a revolution, a must read for some of the advanced techniques!

Quote:

Starship Troopers -

Good SF, heavy on philosophising

There are two types of professional soldier in the world. The ones who love Starship Troopers and the ones who have yet to read it. John Ringo - Ex-Airborne and Mil-Sci-Fi writer swears that all soldiers love this book.

Quote:

A collection of short stories which includes several excellent stories, most noteably "All You Zombies" and "He Built a Crooked House"
[This one is, I understand, VERY hard to find]

I have a copy of 'And he built a crooked house' in a sci-fi anthology... I think it demonstrates RAH's greatest strength and also his greatest weakness... The guy was a genius. Unfortunately he used that genius to create stories that have this theoretical mathematical structure behind them that can be very difficult to grasp... He's always going on about Teseracts and non-euclidian geometry... It's great stuff but difficult to understand in places.

Quote:

Number of The Beast -

Be warned: It's HUGE, and it is chock full of references to a variety of SF characters from his other works and the works of others. If you're not familiar with all these folks you miss 2/3 of the joy of the book.
Imagine the old saw about how "all the fictional characters ever writtien actually exist in some alternate universe" and then imagine these universes intersecting so that, for instance, Jim Kirk might find himself at common purpose with Malcolm Reynolds and Han Solo.
It's that sort of thing.

Number of the Beast was the first Heinlein book I ever read. I loved it! Like most Heinlein books it's quite racy when you read it at 13, there's nudity all over the place and frank descriptions of sex and everything else. Not to mention that it was really educational... You had to learn a hell of a lot to puzzle stuff out. Not to mention that it introduced me to the Barsoom books. And the Lensman books for that matter.

However, like the film Mallrats, you have to read it first because if you read it after other Heinlein books then you realise how crap it is... Well, not crap, but flawed. Read it first, get hooked, then proceed to the really good stuff.

:biggrin It's actually quite funny... He thought he was being all cool and up-to-date by giving his computer 40 Megs of Hard Drive... Nowdays you can buy washing machines with more than that!

"You're a smart girl, Gay"
"Then why are you shacked up with the strawberry blonde with the fat knockers?"

I say start with Number, then move on to Starship Troopers, Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Space Cadet.

If all you're after is Sci-Fi porn then 'To Sail Beyond the Sunset' has it in spades

Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:13 PM

Dear Succatash,
The first Heinlein novel I ever read still strikes me as an excellent introduction to his work: Have Space Suit, Will Travel.
It's a young adult category novel, so don't expect too complicated a story line, but his philosophy of life shines through clear and bright: Take personal responsibility for your life and decisions and their consequences, Never Give Up-Never Surrender (pardon me, Questerians), Be loyal unto death to your friends and family (in this case, to your planet and species). I was eleven and I credit him with embedding those values in me. So I owe much of my character and the life I have to him. I will say, though, that as with all the rest of us humans and writers, he had his flaws. I must disagree here with Mr. theCynic (on the subject of RAH's flawlessness), though as a fellow hero-worshiper of Mr. Heinlein, I sympathise with his distress at the thought of the great man being maligned in any way. In fact, normally I wouldn't mention his human capacity towards flaw, but I do believe that, unwarned, the first time that RAH disappointed you in any way, you might overreact if built up to an unrealistic expectation previously.
I almost envy you your position, you have so many many wonderful hours of reading ahead of you.
Re Starship Trooper, I enjoyed the movie. It has almost zero to do with the book, but the only thing I regret about it is that some people may never read the book thinking that the movie has given them what the book had to offer. Every so often, when American presidents get me down, I give myself a giggle imagining the last couple trying to become eligible for citizenship in the world of Starship Trooper. Sorry to run on so. Reread Door Into Summer just yesterday and then saw these posts, eerie.

Lunatikat, Scourge of the Spaceways and registered dog nurse.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:14 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

Quote:
There are two types of professional soldier in the world. The ones who love Starship Troopers and the ones who have yet to read it. John Ringo - Ex-Airborne and Mil-Sci-Fi writer swears that all soldiers love this book.

It is really funny you said that, I read my first copy of Starship Troopers when I swapped books with my Sergeant sitting in trenches up in Wainwright Alberta during a field exercise.

Hooked me on Heinlein, though there have been many mentioned here I'm am going to be keeping an eye open for next time I am through the bookstore.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:43 PM

Whoops, kind of telescoped Mr. THECYNIC and Mr. Wulfie there, my apologies.

Lunatikat, in search of sanity without a map

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 1:47 PM

BOBOTHEBRAVE

Never been a huge fan of Heinlein myself (my favorite book of his is probably "Past Through Tomorrow", but I prefer Philip Dick, Ursula Le Guin, Samuel Delany, and William Gibson, to name a random few), but there are definitely strong connections between "Firefly" and Heinlein, particularly in the independent, capitalistic, anti-authoritian, libertarian Mal, who'd probably be right at home in a Heinlein novel -- of course, Mal had to suffer through a profound loss of faith in order to get where he is today.

Not sure how much of the connection is conscious, though -- Joss has been quoted as citing John Ford as a major influence, and Mal could also be seen as a slightly nicer version of the embittered ex-Confederate soldier Ethan Edwards in "The Searchers". And not that it really matters a huge deal, but I suspect that Joss's politics -- which include, in addition to feminism, a deep ambivalence towards war and capitalism -- tend to be fairly different from Heinlein's

And while there are enough strong women in Heinlein's work throughout his career to make any claim of misogyny pretty flimsy (Friday in particularly is a prototypical kick-ass female heroine), I wouldn't call him a pioneer, either. In his early works, at least, I think that Heinlein was pretty much on par with his Campbellian (John, not Joseph, natch) contemporaries like Asimov, Clarke, Alfred Bester, Ted Sturgeon, etc., whose work was generally devoid of any overtly sexist content (and who were generally more forward-thinking than their mainstream peers), but who also tended to propagate a fairly traditional picture of the world, wherein the future is owned and made by white males. Certainly, Heinlein didn't grapple with issues of gender as directly or as powerfully as Le Guin or Joanna Russ, or, for that matter, Joss. (Although again, to be fair, Heinlein came earlier)

And a quick note about feminism: while I, like ChrisTheCynic, am sometimes a bit uncomfortable with radical feminist rhetoric, I think it is important to realize that it's not just as simple or easy as waving your hands and saying, "Oh, men and women should be treated equal," since the fact is that in modern society they are not, and that there are still a lot of cultural and structural prejudices that need to be overcome.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 2:14 PM

KAYTHRYN

*Jumps to Wulfy‘s defense with sabre in hand*

Hehehe, okay, not really.

Rayann, good to hear a opinions by people who remain calm and do not resort to “whaa, because I said so” or “you’re stinky”-- but, I want to say that I think you’re wrong about Wulfy. I don’t know if you’ve hung around her for awhile and just signed up as a member today or not, but Wulfy is a great person to have a literary discussion with-- and I mean that without the sarcasm. Also, he never said that he had some sort of special insight on Heinlein's "innermost self", just that Heinlein was sort of a “Great Hero” of his.

And lastly,

Quote:
Posted by Rayann:
My apologies to everyone else on the board for this post, which is hardly in a friendly spirit, but the one thing I cannot stand is a blatant and undeserved bashing of someone just because they expressed an opinion.

I agree but this is what Wulf really said is--

Quote:
Posted by Wulf:
Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult.

He’s all for opinions too. Gotta say opinions are great, but people who argue, but don’t know a thing about the stuff they are arguing about, annoy me all to hell just the same.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 2:45 PM

Riverside, in her statement about Heinlein's anti-female leanings, assumed I was too ignorant to know better, that I was too foolish to doubt her mistake, and too stupid to respond. I don't ask your permission to be insulted by such assumptions, rayann, and your little lecture on art and literature was almost as bad.

As for comparing the works of Heinlein to the works of Whedon, with an eye to derive a comparison of misogynistic tendencies, just how is that possible? Riverside does claim to do so, rayann. Is she comparing Hazel Stone to Zoe, or Friday to Buffy? Or has she read the Misogynistic Interviews of both men? Again, she expresses seeming ignorance as informed opinion, and you, rayann, seem to be ok with this?

Riverside, and you, rayann, have the right, privilege, and duty to express your opinions. Of course, the delicious irony is, I also may express my opinion, and it may well be about your voiced opinion. Posting a statement that falsely accuses Heinlein of woman-bashing is sure to draw fire, especially if I read it, and may just involve some bashing back....after all, the guy is dead and can't defend himself.

I do applaud your honor and bravery, rayann, for blindly and misguidedly leaping to riverside's defense. My sarcasm and exaggeration might have been a tad overdone, my statement a little abrasive (very like your's, rayann), but hey, with your example, I see now that it was ok. Ironic, ain't it?

Tash, Chris's obvious intelligence is marred to the point of unreadability by bad grammer, spelling, punctuation, and a certain irritating pomposity...hmmm, that last seems familiar...

Chis, dude, come on man, just a little effort is all I'm askin.

Ya'll try and excuse my crankiness 8)

tanstaafl

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 3:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lunatikat:
Dear Succatash,
The first Heinlein novel I ever read still strikes me as an excellent introduction to his work: Have Space Suit, Will Travel.
It's a young adult category novel, so don't expect too complicated a story line...

I really appreciate your post.

However, one of my goals is to avoid Young Adult literature, I'm looking for a bad ass story that doesn't hold back. Any suggestions?

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:07 PM

Quote:
Of course, the delicious irony is, I also may express my opinion, and it may well be about your voiced opinion.

And I have no problem with that. However, I do believe that it is possible to comment on someone else's opinion without demeaning the person or their opinion.

Quote:
I do applaud your honor and bravery, rayann, for blindly and misguidedly leaping to riverside's defense. My sarcasm and exaggeration might have been a tad overdone, my statement a little abrasive (very like your's, rayann), but hey, with your example, I see now that it was ok. Ironic, ain't it?

I don't recall calling you ignorant, accusing you of being creepy, or giving you the "finger" emoticon. All I said was that you were being rude, which, by your own admission, you were. Perhaps I could have been less caustic. *shrug*

Quote:
Also, he never said that he had some sort of special insight on Heinlein's "innermost self", just that Heinlein was sort of a “Great Hero” of his.

Kaythryn, I didn't mean to imply that he had said anything of the sort, and I apologize if it came across that way. I just meant to demonstrate that Riverside was no more claiming to have special insight on Joss than Wulfhawk was claiming to have on Heinlein -- which is to say, none. And believe me, I read the part where he said he believed in the right to have opinions, but it did not seem to me that the rest of the post supported that claim.

Look, I know that my first post was a little harsh, and I did not mean to attack Wulfhawk as a person. I certainly didn't mean to bore him with my "little lecture on art and literature" (all those stupid AP English classes have this unfortunate tendancy to surface at really bad times). However, it bothers me when I see people being rude to each other, and I see it a lot on message boards (not this one specifically), which is why I generally lurk rather than post.

I have no problem with people expressing disagreement with someone else's opinion, but I do believe that a certain amount of courtesy is due -- even to people who are ignorant, because they don't know any better. (That's not to say ignorant people should not be enlightened, just that there are better ways to do it than calling them ignorant.) And I apologize for any lack of courtesy I may have had towards Wulfhawk -- two wrongs do not make a right. I just don't like seeing people get torn apart, that's all.

I really hope no one's too pissed off at me, and I do apologize if I came across as arrogant or self-righteous. (I'm not. Really.

)

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:10 PM

Double posted. Sorry.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:30 PM

MSCKAREN

Quote:
Originally posted by rayann:
I have no problem with people expressing disagreement with someone else's opinion, but I do believe that a certain amount of courtesy is due -- even to people who are ignorant, because they don't know any better. (That's not to say ignorant people should not be enlightened, just that there are better ways to do it than calling them ignorant.) And I apologize for any lack of courtesy I may have had towards Wulfhawk -- two wrongs do not make a right. I just don't like seeing people get torn apart, that's all.

I really hope no one's too pissed off at me, and I do apologize if I came across as arrogant or self-righteous. (I'm not. Really. )

You were right on target! I don't know why you're apologizing.

"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:34 PM

MSCKAREN

My favorites are "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" and "I Shall Fear No Evil".

"Appears they've canceled the show and we're still here. What does that make us?"
"Big damn junkies, Sir!"
"Ain't we just."

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 4:35 PM

Ok, so let's go through all the rules of being a Firefly Fan:

1. Always get permission when posting Firefly material, except don't worry about ME or Fox.

2. When posting someone's fan art, make sure you mention that you got permission (don't worry about ME or Fox).

3. If you are going to post on this board, be sure to run your text through a spell chcker.

4. If you are going to disagree with someone, make sure you have a Masters degree in that field, or your opinion is worthless and you've insulted everyone.

5. Chris the Cynic is evil. For some reason.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 5:08 PM

Quote:
You were right on target! I don't know why you're apologizing.

I'm not apologizing for the sentiments I expressed, just the manner in which I expressed them. Running in with guns a-blazing probably wasn't the best way to do things.

Oh, and in response to Succotash's request for Heinlein suggestions -- my dad, a major Heinlein fan, got me started with Starship Troopers and Glory Road. I'd say either book qualifies as a bad ass story that doesn't hold back. But the other suggestions are good, too, although I can't really comment on Number of the Beast, since it's one of the ones I still have to read.

Quote:
Every so often, when American presidents get me down, I give myself a giggle imagining the last couple trying to become eligible for citizenship in the world of Starship Trooper.

Lunatikat, that does produce some great mental images.

Wonder who would've lasted longer, Clinton or Dubya?

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 5:36 PM

SERGEANTX

Tash, read "Time Enough for Love". I'm surprised not many mention it here. It was my first Heinlein and still my favorite.

Now, as far all this feminism/misogyny stuff...

I'd be interested to hear why Riverside thinks Heinlein is misogynistic. It's been my impression that Heinlein adores women. But, it seems, many women don't want to be adored. They see this kind of adulation as a trap designed to keep them in traditional roles that they find demeaning. And Heinlein does seem to hold up as admirable female traits many qualities that some feminists might see as products of societal conditioning rather than inherent attributes of women. In particular several of Heinleins female characters seem quite comfortable using sex to their advantage.

I don't agree with this point of view. I think it gives in to stereotypes of conservative male bigots that, in fact, Heinlein seems to enjoy tweaking. It prejudges him and dismisses him in the same way many modern liberals dimiss the libertarian movement as 'ultra right wing' (and Heinlein was both libertarian and a libertine IMHO).

Anyway, my main motivation for posting was in hopes that Riverside would explain her point of view. If we haven't already scared her off that is.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 6:24 PM

Rayann, guns blazin is just fine, if you're prepared to be shot back at. I reckon you've done admireably. If you wanna declare a truce, I'm all for it, so long as I don't hafta apologize ... unless, of course, a lady would ask a gent to do so.

The reason I took offense to riverside's casual slander is that Heinlein had often been falsely accused of being against womens rights and mistreating women, based on his absolutely equal treatment. It was long ago, but still some student or even professor dredges up some old article to prove that the early science fiction authors were evil. Heinlein was just a dirty, chauvenist, hairy man, the kinda guy who left his wife of many years for a 19 year old student, only to come crawling back...just a guy who served our country, and had a certain genius for writing. Which, of course, means he was human.

tanstaafl

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 7:06 PM

RIVERSIDE

Public rudeness? Note the use of the words "I think" usually used to preface an opinion, not a screaming declaration of ultimate truth. To be honest, I have only read one of Heinlein's books...it has Lazarus Long in it but that's all I remember about it, and I percieved the constant references to woman's highest accomplishment as childbirth (even when she had no interest in raising her multitudes of children), and her place as recreation for men as misogynistic, despite the assurances that she was super intelligent, and accomplished at other things. If anything a super-intelligent woman who considers herself a plaything and a baby-making machine is even more offensive. However, as that was many, many years ago, perhaps I jumped to conclusions, and in fact Heinlein was making a point about how dysfunctional this particular fictional world was, or perhaps in this particular novel he was working out rage against his mother or ex-wife or something. I'm afraid that that being the first book I read by Heinlein, followed shortly by my Heinlein obsessed boyfriend reading excerpts from Grumbles from the Grave to me, I was not inclined to read more. Also if you will notice I didn't say anything about knowing Joss' innermost heart, I only said I hadn't seen anything that I would perceive as misogynistic in his work. I'm sorry if my very short post was unclear on that point. I don't think anything in my post is bashing in any way, rather it was just a different opinion than is being expressed here. I don't come to boards to bash people, and now that I am aware that this thread is the I Love Heinein thread, not a discussion of Firefly and Heinlein, I won't bother people in it anymore. Although, I will reiterate that my intention was not to bash anyone and certainly not to debate, just to express a different opinion. I am very sorry if I have upset or in any way emotionally damaged any of my fellow browncoats. Please accept my humble apologies.

Sincerely,
riverside

btw, Wulfhawk, I know what it is to have a favorite author be maligned and I myself have been known to get a bit worked up in their defense.

My Post:
Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work.

CHRISTHECYNIC Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 16:40

Quote: Originally posted by Riverside:Well, I'm sure from a sci-fi point of view there are probably some Heinlein leanings. However, I don't like to put Joss in the same catagory, because I think Heinlein was extremely misogynistic and I've never seen anything like that in Joss' work. I just looked up the word "misogynistic" because I was sure I misunderstood you. Unless you used the word wrong I didn't.I haven’t read nearly as much Heinlien as most of you but I never saw anything to suggest his works showed anything other than totally equally treatment of women. In Starship Trooper the narrator repeatedly pointed out how in several areas women were better than men, if you think its wrong that he also show places where men are better than women I hate to break it to you but it’s true. The diffrence is chemical, not genetic like people thought in the past (a female child born of a mother injected with testosterone would be classified as male with respect to these differences.)Still even if he had been completely sexist it would still be a stretch to call him misogynistic. That is very harsh nd I have seen no evidence of it at all.He was a chauvinist, but not a male chauvinist, a human chauvinist. That includes women if you didn’t notice.I am forced to wonder if you have really read his works.His writings have been described as having feminism by more people than just the Sergeant. As I said my friend loves Heinlein, and she would never stand for sexism (for or against women.)Quote: Originally posted by SergeantX:I saw a strong connection with Heinlein's point of view from the very first episode of Firefly. From ... the particular brand of feminism representedSergeantX"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith Feminism is defined as the belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.I find it ironic that the loudest of the Feminists do not believe in this.

WULFHAWK Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 09:44

Riverside, did you have to look up misogynistic? Or maybe you should have? Or maybe you should actually READ some Heinlein before bashing? I don't approve of public rudeness (something Heinlein's characters helped teach me), but I see no other way to address your post. Your ignorance is nearly unforgiveable. First, you have a right to an opinion, but to debate with others BASED ON YOUR UNINFORMED opinions clearly declares your belief in our stupidity and ignorance...a deadly insult. Second, your creepy belief that you know Joss Whedon's innermost self well enough to compare him to anyone is, well, creepy...and thouroughly unconvincing. Third, and to me most important, Robert Anson Heinlein was and is one my Great Heros and I will brook no insult or put-downs. And Chris? Type your damn posts in a wordprocessor program first, run the damn spellchecker, then paste it here, OK? I hate to share opinions with posts that look like yours. tanstaafl

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:25 PM

Riverside, I'm sorry for my little bashing. Sometimes I do indeed get carried away. I think you caught me the wrong way with the 'misogynistic' thing. Unless your dictionary is different from mine, that's pretty not nice.

And the other thing, where you compared Joss and Robert, what was that about? A grandmaster of speculative literature who was a social leader of his time, compared to a television writer/producer who's portrayal of women as underfed, underclothed sex objects doesn't seem PC to me. See what I mean? On the other hand, even Zoe wants to have a baby, how can that be bad?

Again, sorry for the crotchetyness. Maybe I'm misogynistic, too?

Did I mention that I dearly love to get into BB duels?

tanstaafl

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 8:58 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I don't think women want to be adored, they want to be loved.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:05 PM

Quote:
Rayann, guns blazin is just fine, if you're prepared to be shot back at. I reckon you've done admireably. If you wanna declare a truce, I'm all for it, so long as I don't hafta apologize ... unless, of course, a lady would ask a gent to do so.

A couple of years ago, I probably would have done the "guns blazin" thing simply to get someone to shoot back, but I like to think I've grown past that particular phase. (Mostly, anyway. I'm still dreadfully quarrelsome from time to time.) So yeah, I think I'm ready for a truce. I don't expect an apology or anything like that; I'd say we're all even here.

I understand why you reacted as you did to Riverside's comments. I've dealt with one too many of those self-labelled "feminists" who obviously don't know the meaning of the word -- women who whine that they don't get equal treatment, and then whine again when they do. Heinlein's writing has always been quite fair in dealing with men and women on equal ground, and I think that upsets many women who think that feminism means that they should have all the opportunities as men without having to work to obtain them -- not to mention that Heinlein doesn't gloss over the fact that there are some situations where women aren't men's equals, just as there are some situations where men aren't women's equals. So I can definitely identify with your frustration at Heinlein being falsely branded as being anti-female, when in truth he was just being honest (in my humble opinion).

(For the record, I am not suggesting that Riverside is the sort of person I have described. Also for the record, I consider myself to be a feminist, in the traditional sense of the word. So I have nothing against feminism, just against women who seem to think it means women are better than men.

)

lol, I've veered rather wildly from the original topic of this thread. In regards to the Heinlein connection to 'Firefly', I definitely see a lot of the same libertarian spirit reflected in Malcolm Reynolds and his crew, as well as the afore-mentioned feminism. I also see a common thread in the particular brand of humor that many of the 'Firefly' characters possess. I can't think of any specific comparisons to back this up, but it's just sort of a vibe I get, I guess. (Hopefully I'm making some sense to someone other than myself, lol.) I would not be at all surprised if Heinlein was one of Joss Whedon's early influences.

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Sunday, June 29, 2003 9:14 PM

Hell, whatever fool fella thinks he's superior to a woman deserves what he gets, ma'am. Women are smarter in some of the most important ways we measure smarts, are usually mentally tougher than the usual run of men, and, well, are prettier, too.

tanstaafl

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Monday, June 30, 2003 2:27 AM

KENWOOD

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
On a happier note, I want to read some Heinlein, where do I start? I am a virgin.

"Stranger in a Strange Land" Heinlein hated it and said he only wrote it for the money, but in my oppinion it is the only thing that qualifies him to be in the top 10 Sci-Fi authors. He wrote a number of other good works, and some drivel ( Farnem's Freehold {sp} ), but nothing else that would put him in the top 10. If you follow a Libertarian bent or are big on self reliance and individualism you'll probably like his work.

By the by, here is Heinlein's list of the 21 things every human should be able to do:

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog,
conn a ship,
design a building,
write a sonnet,
balance accounts,
build a wall,
set a bone,
comfort the dying,
take orders,
give orders,
cooperate,
act alone,
solve equations,
analyze a new problem,
pitch manure,
program a computer,
cook a tasty meal,
fight efficiently,
die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein

Don't look back, som'thin' might be gainin' on ya.
Who let the pigs play poker?
Evo Shander was right!

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Monday, June 30, 2003 2:57 AM

KENWOOD

Again, sorry for the crotchetyness. Maybe I'm misogynistic, too?

No your just an SOB.

Later,

ME.

Don't look back, som'thin' might be gainin' on ya.
Who let the pigs play poker?
Evo Shander was right!

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Monday, June 30, 2003 8:42 AM

MARK

Regarding Heinlein and women...

I think the Heinster is the best chap to answer the questions of what he was like with women. While in several books he did come across as making women weak and submissive to the big, strong men... Well. In Number of the Beast, both of the principle female characters could kick ass like nobody's business. They were both tougher than their male counterparts and one even ends up smacking down Lazarus Long. They just like people to remember that they have their feminine side.

To quote Heinlein:
"The mistake we made was not in putting shoes on them or teaching them to read, we should never have taught them to talk."

Funny guy.

Twelve spheres of unendurable brightness spalled the velvety blackness of space.
The silence on Lester Tourville's flag bridge was absolute
And then the spell was broken as Shannon Foraker looked up from her console from where she had just sent a seemingly innocent command to the main computers of State Security's finest Superdreadnoughts.
"Oops." She said.

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Monday, June 30, 2003 9:43 AM

Dear Wulfhawk,
Say wha-? Was that comment about leaving the wife and then crawling back a generic comment about what might qualify one as a dirty old man or was it an actual reference to Mr. Heinlein? I know he divorced the first Mrs. Heinlein and married Virginia Heinlein, but to the best of my knowledge they were united unto death. Did I miss something?

Lunatikat - the cat who smacked into walls.

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Monday, June 30, 2003 12:39 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I go away for a few days and I get talked about more than ever before, interesting.

So I have to ask, what is so wrong with my spelling? I actually do put my posts through a word processor (Microsoft Word) because my typing is atrocious. According to Word the word “misogynistic” does not exist, so if it isn’t spelled correctly I’m sorry. It was how Riverside typed it, and it seemed a natural progression from misogynist. In addition to that a miss spelling of the word difference and I some how let an “and” slip through without an “a.”
I also add to that that I said “Starship Trooper” not “Starship Troopers.”

So where is the really unintelligible spelling? I haven’t had enough sleep to be sure that when I looked over it there were no wrong words, which doesn’t get helped by spell check.

I didn’t think that I was arrogant or pompous, of course if I am arrogant and pompous then I wouldn’t know would I? I know my grammar is quite odd. That’s another way of saying bad. I make the distinction only because if you were talking to me in person and I spoke in the manner in which I type you would likely understand perfectly.

I asked Riverside to show me examples, and said that I didn’t think she had read his work if she thought that. It turned out I was right, she hadn’t read his work. Or rather she had but had only vague memories. Big deal, if it turned out I was wrong then I was wrong. I said what I guessed from her post, I don’t see the problem with it. Maybe that’s what makes me pompous.

SUCCATASH, if you’re still taking advice, I suggest that you make sure to read Starship Troopers and Stranger in a Strange Land. I actually read the second for a short story in a literature class, longest short story ever, but the novel was well worth the read, and I got the grade.

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
5. Chris the Cynic is evil. For some reason.

Oh, if anyone should find out why I’m evil, please tell me. I have no idea what caused this.

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Monday, June 30, 2003 1:37 PM

Succatash,
Unsure of what you mean by "doesn't hold back". RAH never really holds back, but does have different messages with different books. So. Hmmm. Well, before going further, please let me say that I hope when you have finished reading his non-young adult books, you'll check out the young adult category as well. In some ways, the more constrained RAH is by editors, the cleaner his story-telling gets.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, lovely education in how to hold a revolution. More later, have to get to work immediately. Sorry.

Lunatikat- Party-sized for your pleasure.

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Monday, June 30, 2003 2:01 PM

SERGEANTX

CTC,

I can't speak for everyone on the board, but I don't think you're evil. Some of your posts bring up interesting points and I don't want to see you leave the board. For that reason I hope you pay at least some attention to some of the criticism you're receiving.

One thing I have to say... I skip over about ninety percent of what you post. Personally I find your 'Debate 101' style of posting annoying in the extreme. If it looks like you might have said something interesting I start reading your posts, but as soon as you start the pedantic lecture, criticizing and contradicting everything someone else has said, I find another post... and here's where it gets tricky. You post on a LOT of threads, and for those of us who don't see any point in playing lawyer, it is a little bit like you're crashing the party.

Now obviously you're not the only one who engages in this kind of posting(it takes two to tango), and perhaps some people enjoy the adversarial style of posting, but for those of us who don't - give it a rest sometimes. Try to get feel for the tone of the thread before you turn it into a bickering session. For some threads that kind of stuff is appropriate. There have been numerous threads debating technical minutiae. I find them rather pointless and boring, but its clear what's being discussed and easy to avoid.

I'm sure not everyone on here shares the above point of view and that's fine. I've never seen any point in addressing this issue in the past, but it seems that lately you're becoming something of a scapegoat and the object of much scorn. I can't say whether you deserve it or not, but its kind of ugly. If you back off little bit and engage in more conversation and less debate, I'm guessing most everyone will get off your back.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Monday, June 30, 2003 2:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lunatikat:
Succatash,
Unsure of what you mean by "doesn't hold back".

Well, I suppose I could use Robert Jordan for example. His main characters are all horny, but all they do is blush and act childish.

George R. R. Martin, on the other hand, writes with big brass balls. When it's time for a sex scene or a violent scene, he does it right. He doesn't make me feel like I'm reading something censored.

I've just about run out of steam in the Fantasy genre. I've read everything, and I'm starting to weary of it. Stuff I loved as a young teen just isn't doing it for me anymore. I was extremely frustrated until I found George R.R. Martin, and now I'm frustrated again because he's taking a REALLY long time on Book 4.

I really liked Stephen Donaldson's "The Real Story" because, unlike Thomas Covenant, the Real Story is bad ass and doesn't hold back. Very violent and uncensored-feeling. Great Sci Fi in my opinion.

Thanks for your response.

- Succatash

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Monday, June 30, 2003 2:43 PM