Dirty brown coats by neverfearsteveishere

Actually, as far as I know, the Alliance seems to be the agressor in the War to Unite the Planets. The Independent Faction fought to retain their right to exist as seperate entities of the Alliance. Also the way that Earth is refered to as "the-Earth-that-was" suggests that Earth itself is destroyed.

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:31 PM

it is just that i wonder - who payed for the colony worlds to be terraformed and supported. a bit ungrateful it would seem for citizens to get roudy.

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:34 PM

The Alliance didn't necesarily help form government on Independent worlds. I mean look at all the places Serenity visited. The Alliance is present but do they seem to help or care about the citzens?

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 3:50 PM

They were probably colonized the same way America was colonized in the 17th century--by private companies. England didn't mind, because if England's companies succeeded, then England succeeded.

In Firefly's world, after the planets were teraformed, the Anglo-Sino Alliance probably said, "Thanks, suckers. We'll take it from here," and the colonies probably responded, "The hell you will!" (Not that that happened during the American Revolution, or anything. My comparison of the two wars ended right after the first paragraph.) But that, in my estimation, is what happened.

ALSO...When Firefly showed in the U.S. there was a Nathan Fillion voice-over that said that the Alliance waged war to bring everyone under one rule, right before the show started. That leads me to believe that there was a political power struggle, as wells as a possible economic power struggle.

ALSO...My Coat is Brown. I'm a rebel. The Independence will rise again!

Viva Firefly!

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 4:18 PM

haha. well I see it like this:

a lawless backwater were the strong exploit the weak. And it is was probably such groups which wanted the war in the first place. People like nishka.

smuggling and crime is bad, lawlessness lets people like nishka florish. consequently the alliance gold standard of law and ordered ought to be given to all.

I see the alliance now doing its best for the people.

deap down the brown coats know they were wrong and misguided - even the captain in his thoughts at begining of show says some idiots tried to fight them - himself included.

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:21 PM

WULFHAWK

The Sino-American Alliance is an imperialist cabalism, deserving of whatever sorry fate befalls it. Too bad the poor folks involved gonna get ground up.

Take my love
Take my land

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 5:31 PM

Yeah!

Viva Firefly!

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Thursday, July 10, 2003 10:50 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Poor poor Steve, so misguided, so misinformed.
The earth wasn't destroyed, it was used up, so everyone who could, which included many billions of people found a new solar system and terraformed new worlds. Each group of people on each world had the major responsiblity to create it's own society, and to do the work changing that world into what it could be.

Later, things changed in regards to that. An "Alliance" formed of the central planets, and they decided that every other planet had to be subject to their rule. That's where the war came in. It was obviously foolish to fight them, because of their superior technology, numbers and strategy.

But regardless, it was noble and brave to fight the good fight. To stand up for your own freedom. After the war, things changed, the Alliance under the "rule" they had established, chose to exploit everyone under it. The worlds which were supposed to be flourishing in the Alliance, were left destitute and impoverished. The people were treated like animals. Would you like that Steve?

That is why the fight continues. That is why Mal still flies. That is why I am a browncoat.

----------------------------------
Who's winning?
I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
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Friday, July 11, 2003 4:13 AM

Maniac, you sum up my point completely!smile

And as for those who support a tyrannical government such as the Alliance, well read your history books! They often end up dead.

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Friday, July 11, 2003 4:44 AM

History books end up dead?!

(Sorry, couldn't resist being a smartass.)

REGARDLESS! My browncoated bretheren are quite right. America wasn't founded by apathy and complacency. It was founded by a pack of malcontents and troublemakers. Hurrah for the Independence!

Viva Firefly!

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Friday, July 11, 2003 8:21 AM

KOFFEE

Quote:
Originally posted by JOHNNYREB:
America wasn't founded by apathy and complacency. It was founded by a pack of malcontents and troublemakers. Hurrah for the Independence!

My turn to be a smart ass....

[start smartassness] Wouldn't the Native Americans we waged war against for control of this county in the first place see "us" as the "Alliance" in our own way. After all, they were doing just fine without us coming in and taking "control" over their self-governments. Therefore making the "redskins" the true "Browncoats" of this nation?[/end smartassness]

Lets see what that stirs up.....

----------------------------------------------
“It's a real burn, being right so often.”

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Friday, July 11, 2003 8:48 AM

KAYTHRYN

You know, I never saw the Alliance as being particularly bad. They were just a big ass government. The Alliance people think that they are doing the right thing-- helping people, colonizing the worlds, keeping law and order, etc. For a lot of people the Alliance is probably great, but that's not what we've gotten to see much of in FF.

Mostly because of the war the Independents see the Alliance as evil and untrustworthy and the Alliance sees the Independent the same way. Despite all of the good each group does or believes in only the bad really ever gets noticed.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Friday, July 11, 2003 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Koffee:
Quote:
Originally posted by JOHNNYREB:
America wasn't founded by apathy and complacency. It was founded by a pack of malcontents and troublemakers. Hurrah for the Independence!

My turn to be a smart ass....

[start smartassness] Wouldn't the Native Americans we waged war against for control of this county in the first place see "us" as the "Alliance" in our own way. After all, they were doing just fine without us coming in and taking "control" over their self-governments. Therefore making the "redskins" the true "Browncoats" of this nation?[/end smartassness]

Touche! There is no refuting your logic, Koffee; However, the word to pay attention to in my statement is America. I seriously doubt that the American Indians would have invented "America" as we know it, if left to their own devices. Therefore, the English colonists were the Browncoats of America. The Indians can be the Browncoats of the North American land mass. Either way, it's all good. (Assuming that winning or losing isn't a factor in browncoatedness.)

Viva Firefly!

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Friday, July 11, 2003 1:28 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

People like Niska seem to be able to operate quite well under strong central governments. In the Earth-that-was they had lots of words for them: Commissar, Godfather, Senator ...

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Friday, July 11, 2003 1:32 PM

ahhh. bigger the government the better.

Like a parent watchful over their children. A government, likewise shows that it cares when it is watchful over its billions of charges.

It needs to be big to show its institutional love to its citizens.

The browncoats just needed chastisement.

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Friday, July 11, 2003 1:37 PM

ARCHER

I have this sense that Steve is being a bit tongue in cheek here, but what the hey...

First, consider the typical examples of Alliance folks we've been given. Now, the two of the three Alliance senior military officials we've seen were portrayed as somewhat stuffy but essentially honorable individuals. (Serenity and Bushwhacked... "Let's go help those people.")

Then we have the Blue Hands on the other end, along with Dobson and our good officer of the law from The Message.

One very telling element I caught in Trash was (Spoiler yadda yadda)

Select to view spoiler:

Yo-Saff-Bridg's depiction of her 'ex' as a biowarfare guy who slaughtered whole cities with his nasty bugs so he could go artifact hunting. Mal didn't blink an eye at the story, which indicates that quite likely bioweapons were used by the Alliance. Now that puts the Alliance in a much darker light indeed.

Ah well, not feeling terribly philosophical at the moment, nevertheless.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

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Friday, July 11, 2003 10:36 PM

'Like a parent watchful over their children. A government, likewise shows that it cares when it is watchful over its billions of charges."

And this is why big governments are a bad idea, don't work and eventually crack. The more decisions you kick upstairs the less information is available to decide correctly. The larger the government, and the bigger the population, the more information is required to make a correct decision.

At the extreme, you got one guy deciding every little nuanced piddly thing for billions of people, based on nothing more than what he personally sees, hears and is told. And he is going to get a lot of it wrong.

In the case of governments, wrong can mean death, starvation, or worse for a lot of people.

It takes time to garner information, and communicate decisions, as well as the results and consequences of those decisions. Time that may not be in sufficient supply even if the information is available and communicated to the deciding authority. Information overload crushes big governments.

See Hayek

"My kind of stupid"

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 12:35 AM

some decisions can be made imediately. The alliance is considerate and operates the colonies on a loose leesh.

like the train job, when the soldiers just moved on and the alliance was dissinterested.

The sort of decisions that can be made for all quickly are benevolent rules of human rights, crime and punishment, stuff like that.

no doubt some of these festering colonies had divolved somewhat. One of them even tried to burn river as a witch!! Thats not right. And that not right law is no doubt part of alliance law. she nearly got burned alive, showing in that case more not less government is needed!

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 1:16 AM

"some decisions can be made imediately." By whom? And at what level? What happens while the information is being transmitted up the chain, waiting for the decision to get made, then return down the chain to be implemented?

In the Train Job, the local commander of the troops was not allowed to investigate the near catastrophic loss of medical supplies. He did not have the authority. It is not clear that the commander on the ship did either. Suppose either of them thought this was important enough to investigate, would they be allowed to? And if they would be, how long before they could get started?

That is the problem with any sort of centralized decision making organization. It takes time and resources, plus not all the information required may be available. Sometimes the situation changes so fast that by the time the decision gets back to the local offical, its out of date.

Yes, River almost did get burned. But it was not the Alliance that saved her, but a bunch of folks who did not wait for any higher authority's permission to act as they saw fit. (And possibly violated several Alliance laws and rules in the process)

In Train Job, that is not consideration, or loose leash, that was dooming the colony to death, for failing to act either to prevent the theft, nor recover the goods. That is negligance of the highest and most dangerous order. Negligance that is going to be the norm any time you have the decision making body isolated from the local conditions.

Decisions that can be made "for all quickly" are not limited to the list you have. But also some pretty horrible things, like massacres, mass executions, concentration camps.

"my kind of stupid"

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 3:02 AM

i would say that a train heist should be left to local authorities - they kept their noses out there.

the world were river nearly got burnt though, proves that the embrace of the alliance is not as long and as tight as it needs to be!

Face it, the brown coats stand for pettyness and decay of the human race in space. The alliance on the other hand stands for progress, unity and positive things.

the alliance just needs to spread faster.

The core worlds as the founders of humanity command the moral highground.

so far, what ive watched, my picture of the alliance is that it is a fairly new thing bringing order to chaos and is not yet fully established. And sadly does not yet have the might to dominate space as it should - to get rid of all the nishkas and other criminal groups - and to get all paying the taxes that they should for the defence and security provided.

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 3:53 AM

Read some of Jerry Pournelle's CoDominium short stories. These stories show exactly why government has to be operated at different levels: local, state, regional, and federal. If you have a bureaucrat 20 light years away making decisions for people he hasn't even met, how can he make a proper decision! Furthmore, we never have seen the colonies having any representation within the Alliance, only "civilized" core planets, which, in fact are morally decadent, i.e. the Companions' Guild, dueling, and of course, the Hand of Blue agents.

There! I'm done with my ranting and raving!

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 4:10 AM

"Face it, the brown coats stand for pettyness and decay of the human race in space. The alliance on the other hand stands for progress, unity and positive things."

LOL.

I think you are not understanding me here. It does not matter one whit whether the Alliance has the best intentions, or "moral high ground" or any of the "positive things" to stand for. You do know what good intentions are called in Hell; Asphalt.

No centralized government can act effectively at meeting the needs of its population, especially if that population is spread across several solar systems (See Act 4 of "The Message") It is a fundamental human and physical limitation. The amount of information needed to make good decisions is simply not available to the powers that be soon enough and in sufficient detail, to make those decisions correctly.

And so you end up with very uneven and arbitrary law enforcement. Such that even though an entire platoon was available, and onboard the train, the local officals could not use it in order to find the culprits of the heist.

You end up with large patches of territory where there is no law, and a young girl can be burned at the stake without so much as a trial.

I see the Alliance more of as a united federation of planets, with no guarentees for the rights of anyone, except to pay taxes to the central government. They demand the power to do a job, that even if the people gave it to them, they cannot do. And in most respects, simply don't.

And since they don't, the law becomes arbitrary, and the verse fills up with an assortment of monsters like Niska. The locals have no power to govern themselves, yet the locals are the ones who have the information, that a government needs. The constant back and forth, the lack of local autonomy, ends up making a mess of their goals.

What is worse, that as a result of the law degenerating into an arbitrary mess, people lose respect for the law, and disobey it more or less freely. People like Niska thrive, while the Alliance hunts down bobble head gesha doll smugglers.

One size does not fit all. And no ogliarchy is going to be able to effectively rule a large population. It does not matter whether the Alliance intends to be good, or anything. The effect is bad. Bad for the people who have to live under it.

"my kind of stupid"

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 4:14 AM

Or read Hayek. Here was a guy who saw the rise of both Nazism and communism, and at one time was a communist himself. But he later figured out that no matter what they said or intended to do, no matter what kind of utopia they thought they would bring to Earth, it can't happen. The information problem is impossible to crack, and what is worse, you are wasting the very resource you need to crack it, namely more human minds.

But then if you let each mind in on part of the decision process, you don't have a central autocracy, you have a democracy. If you let folks fend for themselves, and limit the powers of government only to those areas where it is required, have it come in as an impartial referee, things work a heck of a lot better.

"my kind of stupid"

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:45 AM

WULFHAWK

Let me say for all my Native American brethren and sistren:

We are still flyin!

Eventually, North America will be liberated from the European Squatters. The Alliance of Ingrate Immigrants will keep supplying us with money by gambling at our casinos, allowing us to regain title of lands actually belonging to us for thousands of years.

Remember Wounded Knee!

Take my love
Take my land

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 11:56 AM

GINOBIFFARONI

prime minister, and president too perhaps

" If wishes were Horses, then we'd all be eatting Steak "

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 12:49 PM

ARCHER

Quote:
Originally posted by Wulfhawk:
Let me say for all my Native American brethren and sistren:

We are still flyin!

Eventually, North America will be liberated from the European Squatters. The Alliance of Ingrate Immigrants will keep supplying us with money by gambling at our casinos, allowing us to regain title of lands actually belonging to us for thousands of years.

Remember Wounded Knee!

Take my love
Take my land

Uh, up with the Injuns and all, Wulf... that's cool. 'Ceptin' that's the other half of my family you're kicking out there. I'm actually fond of one or two of 'em.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 1:05 PM

WULFHAWK

O hell no, I'm not about kickin em out, you see...it's more like rent 8)

Take my love
Take my land

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 5:12 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Excuse me for straying off topic. Is Persephone a Core Planet? Based on conversations in Ariel where Zoe doesn't want to "set foot on a core planet" and Shindig where she says that Persephone is begining to feel like home, I get the impression that it isn't.

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Saturday, July 12, 2003 9:45 PM