A different perspective on a small trivial Firefly tidbit by ManiacNumberOne

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

A different perspective on a small trivial Firefly tidbit

POSTED BY: MANIACNUMBERONE
UPDATED: Thursday, August 7, 2003 01:21
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 4905
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:08 AM

I know I'm gonna take some crap for admitting this.

I was re-watching War Stories tonight (4 a.m.). I came to the part where Zoe and Wash are arguing about Zoe telling the Cap'n about Wash's idea, and Wash wanting her to treat him with more respect and blah blah... you know the rest.
When the scene ends and Wash says his last words as he is about to leave the scene, "...what this marriage needs is one less husband." He is making his stand, of course, but (in my blindness) I didn't ever see beyond the literal meaning before. I don't know what made me see it differently this time. I always thought he was refering to himself as the only "husband" who would be leaving the marriage, but in fact he was calling Mal a second huusband to Zoe, and he wanted Mal to be that "one less husband" due to Zoe stopping treating him like one - thus that scene takes on a whole different meaning.
Wash was telling Zoe that he was jealous. Essentially pouring out his heart to her and all the time I thought he was almost threatening to leave her!! Have you ever felt as stupid as I feel?

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:30 AM

WHOODAHN

Watch the show again with your new perspective. The dialog during the torture scene will make more sense.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:45 AM

JAVIDRHO

I think that's why it is important to watch Firefly multiple times (one episode every day if possible) - there are so many things you miss the first couple of times around. In fact, some of my least favorite episodes contain some of my most favorite moments. There are many things hinted at, but not said directly. That's a sign of great writing (and acting).

----------------
SIMON: What happens if they board us?
ZOE: If they take the ship, they'll rape us to death, eat our flesh, and sew our skins into their clothing
and if we're very very lucky, they'll do it in that order.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:52 AM

JOHNNYREB

Actually, I always thought that he was refering to Mal, when he said "...one less husband." It never occured to me that he may be refering to himself. I'll have to watch the show with that new perspective to see if it makes a difference. Just to see if there is a difference.

Viva Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 2:55 AM

CULTTVGIRL

Quote:
Originally posted by JOHNNYREB:
Actually, I always thought that he was refering to Mal, when he said "...one less husband." It never occured to me that he may be refering to himself.

I thought he meant Mal too.

Hey, imagine if you had two husbands and they were Mal and Wash. Now that would be excellent!

Even better if they were Mal and Jayne!

Book: “A duel?”
Wash: “With swords?”
Simon: “The Captain's a good fighter, he must know how to handle a sword?”
Zoe: “I think he knows which end to hold.”

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 3:05 AM

JOHNNYREB

That may be cool for you. What about us men? I would rather have two wives...Kaylee and Kaylee.

Don't get me wrong! Inara is super-hot too. But, I couldn't imagine being married to a companion.

Zoe isn't really my type, and River is too much like a little sister to view like that.

Viva Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 3:34 AM

SARAHETC

You're not stupid, Maniac.

I at first thought what you thought and then I actually started to think a third way-- that Wash wanted Zoe to be less like a husband. Like he was angry at her for being strong and single minded. That they couldn't both be the husband--somebody had to give in to the other. I didn't stick with that one for very long.

But yeah, I think like you in the end. Mal is the other husband. I think that this echoes again when they're in the shuttle. "Ignition sequence is all turned about. I can't..." "I can." "Well, get her started, would you, Wash?" And on and on. You'll notice that through almost that whole thing, except when he stops to make the "No sir" joke, he never takes his eyes off Zoe. And he's got his eyebrows raised like "dare me."

And yes to whoever suggested watching the torture scene again with that in mind. I suggest watching the torture scene a lot, but that's just me. War Stories is so my favorite episode.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 3:35 AM

DRAKON

And there is also speculation that ZOE was the other husband.

"my kind of stupid"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 3:53 AM

JOHNNYREB

Oops. Too slow.

Viva Firefly!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 8:10 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahetc:
I at first thought what you thought and then I actually started to think a third way-- that Wash wanted Zoe to be less like a husband. Like he was angry at her for being strong and single minded. That they couldn't both be the husband--somebody had to give in to the other. I didn't stick with that one for very long.

Now there's a perspective I didn't consider, but could be just as true. I figured Wash meant that Mal was the other husband based on how she defers to the Captain on things. In Serenity, when Wash asked her "We're going to talk this through, yeah?" her reaction was to go all stoney, physically saying, "It's the captain's word and that's all there is to it. Then there's all that history they go into in War Stories.

Not having been married myself, can I still make an observation? A man wants his wife to think of him as the only man in her life, right? The one she turns to for everything. For Wash, not only can his wife easily take care of herself, but she doesn't necessarily go to her husband first on some things. That could make a guy feel threatened, couldn't it?

“We three are the only ones in this place wearing brown. Means we’ve found something worth fighting for. Something worth being more than alive for.”
Sarahetc

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 8:32 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

Now there's a perspective I didn't consider, but could be just as true. I figured Wash meant that Mal was the other husband based on how she defers to the Captain on things. In Serenity, when Wash asked her "We're going to talk this through, yeah?" her reaction was to go all stoney, physically saying, "It's the captain's word and that's all there is to it. Then there's all that history they go into in War Stories.

Good call! That's a really telling scene. Consider his reaction to her when she does that. He completely withdraws from the conversation. He turns away from her, and even maybe all of them, sets his jaw, rolls his eyes and slouches. It's like he's taking his dinosaurs and going home but it's more than that too. His whole posture says "You don't need to communicate with me? Then I won't communicate with you."

Cut forward a few seconds to when Mal decks Simon for his Alliance remark. The eye is naturally drawn to Jayne because he's foremost on the screen and says "... seen that comin'." But, if you haven't noticed before, looked past back to Wash who is still sitting at the table. He's nodding emphatically, looking very resigned. I have thought about this one some and I'm not sure what we're supposed to see, but in this context, I think that that nod is "There he goes again."

I think we might have a better way to think abou these things if we knew the first thing about Wash's background. When he says, in OMR, "Sometimes I think I entered flight school just to see what the hell everybody was talking about." that tends to make me think that he didn't come to Serenity from a military background. But, you never know. Mal's ship "is not the rutting town hall" but Wash is a much more egalitarian character.

Quote:
Not having been married myself, can I still make an observation? A man wants his wife to think of him as the only man in her life, right? The one she turns to for everything. For Wash, not only can his wife easily take care of herself, but she doesn't necessarily go to her husband first on some things. That could make a guy feel threatened, couldn't it?

I haven't been married all that long. As for what men want, I would think it would be very individual. Some men would want a very dependent woman who left all the decisions up to him. Some would be the opposite and then all the degrees in between.

This is where, I think, we have to wish we knew more about Zoe. About why she would fall for and marry Wash. I--and this might get me trounced--think that we know less about Zoe than about any other character. Even Book. Or maybe we know equally little about them. Anyway, if we only knew more about her.

I was going to write something about Zoe's attraction being almost wholy physical, but I'm still going to think on it for a while.

This is fun! Thanks for a great topic, Maniac.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:39 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahetc:
Cut forward a few seconds to when Mal decks Simon for his Alliance remark. The eye is naturally drawn to Jayne because he's foremost on the screen and says "... seen that comin'." But, if you haven't noticed before, looked past back to Wash who is still sitting at the table. He's nodding emphatically, looking very resigned. I have thought about this one some and I'm not sure what we're supposed to see, but in this context, I think that that nod is "There he goes again."

Listening to the director's commentary while watching A Knight's Tale, I learned that Alan Tudyk is a master scene stealer. No matter what's going on or what the main scope of the scene is, he stays in character, doing something totally separate from the central action that completely applies to both the scene and his character. He and Mark Addy (Roland) played off each other a lot that way in the film. You could watch all the Firefly episodes through once, keep your eye on Wash and see something totally different from what you saw before.

“We three are the only ones in this place wearing brown. Means we’ve found something worth fighting for.
Something worth being more than alive for.”
Sarahetc

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:59 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

You could watch all the Firefly episodes through once, keep your eye on Wash and see something totally different from what you saw before.

Well, there goes my weekend!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 11:12 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I thought for sure y'all were gonna trounce me... for my lack of insight. I like your third option Sarah, very intriguing. It makes it possible for there to be a fourth option, wherein all three of them are acting like the husband. I never had thought of Zoe as the "husband", but she certainly is a strong "warrior woman", so it's very possible.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:09 PM

STILLSHINY

I just wanna drop in here. Wash rocks! I can't say he's my favorite, that's like saying which side of a diamond do you like best. Well get rid of one & you got nothin. And we all know how much nothin is worth. But he's very much a mystery man, even more so than Mal, the "star". I hate calling him that. Anyway, Wash just lets these little things out about himself and you say, How the heck does all this add up?" (Gee, it would be really nice to give Joss the satisfaction of further developing such an awsome cast of characters) Gorramm Fox

I'm ok, shiny. Nonethelsss, How much of what Wash says is true? It's fascinating to watch him. Is he sarcastic or sincere? I'm not really asking I'm just observing. The answer is left up to you to find out. The one thing you do know is his faithful love for Zoe and his ability to pilot that ship. Man, I hate the fact that Fox cancelled this show. O.K I'm done now.

smashing baby, totally "shiny" - a delic.

Mal: “See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown!”

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 4:28 PM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by stillshiny:
How much of what Wash says is true? It's fascinating to watch him. Is he sarcastic or sincere? I'm not really asking I'm just observing. The answer is left up to you to find out.

How much of what Wash says is true? Do you see him as a sneaky character, given to telling tales? Like Jayne or Book?

I think in each instance of sarcastic/sincere we're given plenty of contextual clues to point us in the correct direction. Certainly it's more difficult to read a "joker" type person like Wash than say, Zoe, who always says what she means, but that doesn't mean that everything he says is totally open to wild interpretation. I don't think.

That said and having thought about this for the better part of the day, let us consider Zoe's perspective a little more.

This afternoon, replying to Channain, I got to thinking about patterns in Zoe's behavior toward Wash. Given the thrust of Channain's question: Zoe doesn't need Wash to support her, etc., can we consider what Zoe does need Wash for. And I was thinking that there were only a few instances where Zoe related to Wash as her husband in a non-sexual way. There's when they fall into the shuttle after she buys him back from Niska. There's the discussion in Heart of Gold. There are a couple more, but I've drawn a blank, so let's start there.

In almost every other circumstances, she's relating to him either as a sex-object: "I need this man to tear all my clothes off"; "You certainly do [know all the steps]"; "Sorry sir, didn't mean to enjoy the moment"; or as a fellow professional: "I outrank you" etc.

There are a few exceptions, such as "You been drinkin' husband" and "That's my man." Those aren't as easily categorized.

So, from there, can we infer that the primary need Wash meets for Zoe is sex? That their primary conflict over the supremacy of Mal's will in her life isn't even an argument to her because she doesn't need Wash to act as a husband in many other ways outside the bedroom?

This is all lies and heresy, I'm sure, but the thoughts, they roll around. I, like many people, I hope, want Wash to be Zoe's salvation. I want him to be her ticket out of Serenity Valley. In that respect, Mal is her anchor. Will she ever truly be able to leave the Valley behind while she follows Mal and he insists on staying?

More to wonder about.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 4:51 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

I always thought that Wash was referring to Mal. And that Wash was talking out of jealousy. But once you mention it, I can see how you could interpret it that he was referring to Zoe. Especially when inlight of the line..."I am a semimuscular male; I can take it." I think what he meant (Mal as a husban) is clarified when he insists on going on the mission in Zoe's place.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:30 AM

DRAKON

Speaking only for myself, having been married 22 years, I think I know what I want for a wife. And there is part of the, "being the central man" if not only man in the relationship. If your wife is too independent, the question of why she needs you around gets brought up.

But ya don't want a piece of fluff that needs constant attention, or does not have the brains of a house plant. You want someone strong, a helpmate, and smart. Someone to talk to.

Oh, and fun in bed is important too

As for Zoe, there is a cut line in Heart of Gold where she mentions being raised on a ship. Hence there may be a very natural deference to the captain on most matters. Wash does not appear to have any military training or bearing whatsoever, this is brought out by his inability that the captian has to be the captain, the ship cannot be a rutting town hall, etc.

"my kind of stupid"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 23, 2003 2:59 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Speaking only for myself, having been married 22 years, I think I know what I want for a wife. And there is part of the, "being the central man" if not only man in the relationship. If your wife is too independent, the question of why she needs you around gets brought up.....

...As for Zoe, there is a cut line in Heart of Gold where she mentions being raised on a ship. Hence there may be a very natural deference to the captain on most matters. Wash does not appear to have any military training or bearing whatsoever, this is brought out by his inability that the captian has to be the captain, the ship cannot be a rutting town hall, etc.

"my kind of stupid"

I didn't catch the line about Zoe being raised on a ship. I felt her deference to Mal was because he was her NCO during the war. She has said that she won't follow orders that she thinks are foolish.

I doubt that Wash was in the military (he strikes me more as a bush pilot), but I disagree with your logic. There are a lot of former military men that don't take orders well. I know people who are Colonels and Majors when they're on duty but are never considered for promotion at their civilian jobs. I know a couple of guys who did everything they were told to do while they were in the army but as civilians will only do what they want. My point is that the Military vs. Civilian doesn't always translate well.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:24 PM

FLYINFREE

I think Wash was referring to Zoe when he said, "...what this marriage needs is one less husband." He was responding to Zoe hiding the truth from him and lying to him to spare his feelings.

Found a job, still flyin'...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:18 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
I think Wash was referring to Zoe when he said, "...what this marriage needs is one less husband." He was responding to Zoe hiding the truth from him and lying to him to spare his feelings.

Found a job, still flyin'...

I don't know exactly why I am thinking this, but are you perchance a female angry at a lying man? Ok, so I do know why I thought that... I guess I have an inkling of why anyway... it's what you wrote... Why do you associate hiding the truth and lying to spare feelings to be a male trait? Not trying to cause big waves here, just curious.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, July 23, 2003 11:20 PM

DRAKON

I didn't catch the line about Zoe being raised on a ship.

Its not in the aired show. Check the script for Heart of Gold, Act 2, scene 15, at the very end.

ZOE
I don't give a good gorram about
relevant, Wash. Or objective. And I'm
not so afraid of losing something
that I won't try havin' it. You and
I would make one beautiful baby. I
want to meet that child one day.
Period.

WASH
And this beautiful baby of ours, you
don't mind that it's going to grow up
on a spaceship?

ZOE
Worked fine for me.

As for your point about civilian versus military, well taken. I do understand the difference, having spent some time in the Canoe Club myself.

But having said that, what the military does is give you a different perspective on such issues like command of a vessel. Something that I see Zoe and Mal having, yet lacking in Wash to any degree. Its not just about taking orders, and any vet will tell you that a soldier that does not think, that blindly follows orders, is not a good soldier. Its about understanding how and why orders have to be given, why the command authority has to have the last word, and how to get the command to change its mind in a manner that does not undermine that authority.

The captain of a vessel, military or civilian, is responsible for that ship and all aboard. Any action he takes, can have a dire outcome for either. Any order he gives to some extent has to be accepted, because in many instances there is no time to explain or argue. Its not power tripping on the captain's part, its the fact that a delay between issuance of an order and its execution, can be deadly for all involved.

"my kind of stupid"

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:27 AM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
I don't know exactly why I am thinking this, but are you perchance a female angry at a lying man? Ok, so I do know why I thought that... I guess I have an inkling of why anyway... it's what you wrote... Why do you associate hiding the truth and lying to spare feelings to be a male trait? Not trying to cause big waves here, just curious.

Men, especially in film and media have always been associated with authority and decision making in a marriage, "the breadwinner", "the protector". Shielding the nurturing wife from the harsh realities of the world. Men are portrayed as macho and dominant and self-assured, rescuing damsels in distress, not be rescued by them. Wash felt emasculated by Zoe protecting him and making his decisions for him.

Still flyin'...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 4:35 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:

Men, especially in film and media have always been associated with authority and decision making in a marriage, "the breadwinner", "the protector". Shielding the nurturing wife from the harsh realities of the world. Men are portrayed as macho and dominant and self-assured, rescuing damsels in distress, not be rescued by them. Wash felt emasculated by Zoe protecting him and making his decisions for him.

Men, in reality, have always been associated with authority and decision making.

I don't know if I can agree that Wash felt emasculated. He's stated that he likes forward women and that in that respect, "not everybody gets me and Zoe at first glance."

I don't have much of a suggestion otherwise, but I think it more comes back to Wash wanting Zoe all to himself. He doesn't, perhaps, want what he thinks are crucial parts of her self bound up with Mal instead of with him.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:31 AM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
I don't know if I can agree that Wash felt emasculated. He's stated that he likes forward women and that in that respect, "not everybody gets me and Zoe at first glance."

I don't have much of a suggestion otherwise, but I think it more comes back to Wash wanting Zoe all to himself. He doesn't, perhaps, want what he thinks are crucial parts of her self bound up with Mal instead of with him.

That is true, as we saw in the torture scene, Wash doesn't like the relationship between Mal and Zoe. But the comment he made about one less husband was right after him complaining that she hide the truth from him to spare his feelings, "I am a large semi-muscular man, I can take it. Don't hide behind Mal because you know he'll shoot it down for you. Tell me!"

Although I'm sure Wash would love to see Mal out of their marriage. In this specific instance I think we need to take the comment in context with the rest of the conversation.

Still flyin'...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:39 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:
That is true, as we saw in the torture scene, Wash doesn't like the relationship between Mal and Zoe. But the comment he made about one less husband was right after him complaining that she hide the truth from him to spare his feelings, "I am a large semi-muscular man, I can take it. Don't hide behind Mal because you know he'll shoot it down for you. Tell me!"

Although I'm sure Wash would love to see Mal out of their marriage. In this specific instance I think we need to take the comment in context with the rest of the conversation.

I can dig you. But what if the context indicates not that Wash feels emasculated, but that he's assuming Zoe will think he is?

I see where you're coming from, but I'm still on a jealousy track. I wish there were some kind of guide to it, some big story we could read so as to see between the lines. Maybe that's what we'll get with the DVD commentary.

Interesting too, to compare "I can take it. Don't hide behind Mal... tell me!" to "He's crazy. I didn't know. You told the stories. Saved you in the war. I didn't know, Zoe. Niska's gonna kill him." Do you suppose that that indicates a fundamental shift in Wash's perspective toward Mal and Mal's relationship with Zoe?

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 6:53 AM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
I can dig you. But what if the context indicates not that Wash feels emasculated, but that he's assuming Zoe will think he is?

If a man thinks someone else sees him as emasculated, he feels emasculated. It's all about how he perceives himself through other people's eyes.

Quote:
I see where you're coming from, but I'm still on a jealousy track. I wish there were some kind of guide to it, some big story we could read so as to see between the lines. Maybe that's what we'll get with the DVD commentary.

Generally filmmakers, especially in television, like to compartmentalize scenes, in most cases the context can be found in the scene in which the line is presented. Although this is certainly not always the case, I think in this instance the comment was in dealing with the immediate conflict. Also, in life arguments generally degrade as they go on and people start to focus in on little things. Their argument started out on the larger issue of them and Mal but quickly focused in on the lie Zoe told him.

Quote:
Interesting too, to compare "I can take it. Don't hide behind Mal... tell me!" to "He's crazy. I didn't know. You told the stories. Saved you in the war. I didn't know, Zoe. Niska's gonna kill him." Do you suppose that that indicates a fundamental shift in Wash's perspective toward Mal and Mal's relationship with Zoe?

I think it does, up until that point they were just stories, Wash never really FELT what it was like. After Mal carried Wash through the torture and Wash saw "the real Mal" as Shan Yu would have put it. Wash starts to get an idea of why Zoe is so loyal to Mal.

Still flyin'...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:25 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by FlyinFree:

Generally filmmakers, especially in television, like to compartmentalize scenes, in most cases the context can be found in the scene in which the line is presented. Although this is certainly not always the case, I think in this instance the comment was in dealing with the immediate conflict. Also, in life arguments generally degrade as they go on and people start to focus in on little things. Their argument started out on the larger issue of them and Mal but quickly focused in on the lie Zoe told him.

I think that in Firefly it's definitely not the case. While they use some common editing tropes certainly, the argument on the bridge scene is not, in my opinion, wholly contextualized. It cuts quickly from an exchange of looks in the mess and we the viewer see the argument already in progress. With that in mind, I think it starts out about the lie that Zoe told him and grows into the Larger Issue Mal argument.

I wonder too, to what extent Wash was, at that point, spoiling for a fight. It seems to me that Zoe's remark "Is there any way I'm going to get out of this with honor and dignity?" is her attempt at appeasement, but he presses forward. With that press, I understand more about what you're saying about him feeling emasculated.

Sarah

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 7:41 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Lemme throw another spin on the topic.

Mal needs Zoe, badly - or at least Zoe sees it that way.

While she'll stand up for him 'in public', between them she never gives him ANY slack, cause to her mind most of his schemes are downright idiotic - but hey, he's the captain.
(and I really believe Zoe has a 'better him than me!" take on that particular aspect of things.)

I think one of the reasons for her devotion, or at least bound up in it, is her belief that without her as a check to his dumber actions, Mal is likely to do something stupid and get himself killed, and well, we just can't have THAT, now can we ?

So my take is that the way Zoe sees is is that Mal absolutely needs her, not so much that she needs him.

Just some thoughts,

-Frem
die fux die

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 8:05 AM

KAYTHRYN

Okay, this might be a bit off topic, but in War Stories, why doesn't Wash approach Mal with his idea? Why does he ask Zoë to ask him, and then get mad at her? I mean, Serenity isn't a small ship, it's not like he couldn't find Mal, and if Wash was getting more and more agitated by Zoë and Mal's relationship, why would he ask her to go to him. I'd think he'd try to keep her from him as much as humanly possible without sounding like a controlling freak like he did when he went on the shuttle run with Mal.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 9:40 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Maybe this is somewhere up in the thread, but there is this thing of TRUST that's supposed to exist between husband and wife. Commitment. The person who watches your back, kicks you in the *ss if you need it, stays with you till death do you part and all that. Wash just doesn't know where he is in the list of priorities, or why.

I agree with the post about Zoe being one of the less-explained characters. In some ways Book is explained more than Zoe because HE is a "man of mystery"- we expect something weird in his past- while Zoe is a blank in many respects. I sure would have liked to see more about her.
And everybody...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, July 24, 2003 3:45 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
The captain of a vessel, military or civilian, is responsible for that ship and all aboard. Any action he takes, can have a dire outcome for either. Any order he gives to some extent has to be accepted, because in many instances there is no time to explain or argue. Its not power tripping on the captain's part, its the fact that a delay between issuance of an order and its execution, can be deadly for all involved.

All this is very true. Maybe, as pilot, Wash is used to making more decisions. Even if he's not, the fact that he's angry about the situation is good overall character development, it shows he has ambitions.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, July 26, 2003 1:51 PM

FLYINFREE

OK, here's how I read the conversation:

Quote:
Wash: "You said you didn't get a chance to tell the captain my idea, what you actually meant was: you told him my idea, he rejected it out of hand, and you didn't argue the point or even give it another thought and then came the lying to me about it, which for me, is sorta the highlight of this little adventure."

You screwed up, but what hurts me most is you lied about it.

Quote:
Zoe: "Is there anyway I'm going to get out of this with honour and dignity?"

I'm know I screwed up, I'm sorry.

Quote:
Wash: "You're pretty much down to ritual suicide Lambytoes."

That's not good enough.

Quote:
Zoe: "I didn't want to upset you."

I was trying to protect you.

Quote:
Wash: "What did you think of it?"
Zoe: "Of What?"
Wash: "My idea. (explains his idea)"

Don't you think I'm worth listening to?

Quote:
Zoe: "Captain thinks it will get back to someone, it will just cause trouble."

Avoiding the question to spare his feelings. (still trying to protect him)

Quote:
Wash: "(curses) was I ever not asking what the captain thought."

Don't avoid the question.

Quote:
Zoe: "Well I tend to agree with him."

Indirectly admitting to not liking his idea. (still protecting him)

Quote:
Wash: "Tend to or have to? I love the fact that you two are old army buddies and have got wacky stories with ribcages in them, but could you have an opinion of your own please?"

Getting angry with her still trying to avoid the question.

Quote:
Zoe: "You're losing the high ground here Sweetcakes."

You're being immature.

Quote:
Wash: "I'm sure you and Mal will take that hill and fortify with the..."

Lashing out and mocking her.

Quote:
Zoe: "I thought your plan was too risky. I thought!"

Stops trying to avoid the issue and tells him what she really thinks.

Quote:
Wash: "Then tell me. I am a large semi-muscular man, I can take it. Don't hide behind Mal because you know he'll shoot it down for you. Tell me!"

Don't treat me like a weakling.

Quote:
Zoe: "Right, because what this marriage needs is one more shouting match."

You just would have been hurt.

Quote:
Wash: "No, what this marriage needs is one less husband, right now it's kinda crowded."

I am a man and don't need your protecting, stop acting like a husband and treating me like a wife.

So as I see it, the one less husband is Zoe.

Still flyin'...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, August 7, 2003 1:21 AM

RUTHIE

(Sorry to revive an old thread, but I've been on hols, just seen my recorded 'War Stories', and just HAD to join in the fun!)

I think that a relevant point that no-one has yet made here is the nature of the relationship between Zoe and Mal.
I see tham as having one of those very rare things - a male/female strong friendship with no sexual tension (resolved or unresolved).

They are friends because they have known each other for a long time, share the same ideas and ideals, and have been through testing circumstances that have allowed each to see the 'real' other (without torture!!)

However, their friendship is just that - they plain just don't fancy each other. They're not the right 'type' for each other.

Zoe's 'type' is Wash - humerous, clever, a negotiator rather than a fighter, sensitive. Very different from Mal.

Mal's 'type' is Inara - gentle, sensitive, elegant, caring about feelings - very different from Zoe.

I think that Mal and Zoe both understand very well the nature of their relationship, which is why they could joke at the end about having to go to bed together - the clumsiness of their embrace was exagerated for comic effect, but reflected their true feelings.

I think that, on a good day, Wash also understands that Mal is no threat to his relationship with Zoe. However, War Stories did not take place on a good day - it was a day when all sorts of little things had snowballed - having what he thought was a good idea turned down, an argument with Zoe, thinking about Zoe being in danger on missions, - who knows what else - maybe he also had a headache and indigestion!!

So Wash behaved differently to the way he may have handled the same external circumstances on another day, and ended up seeing Mal in more the way that Zoe does, which is why he could handle the joking embrace at the end with humour, rather than resentment.

As to the original thread topic, I saw two meanings immediatly in the 'one less husband' line - I saw Wash saying that he was seeing (at that moment) both himself and Mal as 'husbands', and one of them had to go - he felt he was presenting an ultimatum. - make a choice, him or me.
Then, when Niska thought he would play a clever little mind game and make Zoe choose to release eithe Mal or Wash, expecting it to be a hard choice on the basis of their discussion under torture, Zoe didn't even let him finish his sentence. No choice at all (for reasons both practical and emotional - Mal would be better able to continue in Niska's power).
How reassuring for Wash that must have been!!

Brilliant episode. Brilliantly written and acted.

Oh, how I wish there where more!!!

*******************
Ruthie
*******************
By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man - man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him. (R.A.Heinlein)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE