REHASHING OLD TOPICS:JAYNE: TRAITOR or REPENTOR? by TragicStory

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

REHASHING OLD TOPICS:JAYNE: TRAITOR or REPENTOR?

POSTED BY: TRAGICSTORY
UPDATED: Monday, August 11, 2003 09:38
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VIEWED: 4930
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Monday, July 28, 2003 5:23 AM

Since we have seen all the new Firefly we can until Dec. (Fuckin' Fox Executive Fux) I raise the debatable question once again: Was Jayne a traitor throughout Ariel or did he see the error of his way and try to help Simon and River? and if so before or after he was denied the bounty? Finally, do you think he would betray them again?

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, July 28, 2003 6:03 AM

FERAL

Jayne betrayed them all the way. Had he been repentant, he would have not said "I'm sorry mal, the money was just too good." A truly repentant man, by definition has to confess... to the persons he's wronged... the only reason he has not sold them up the river AGAIN is simple... HE IS SCARED OF MAL... And, honestly, if he could get away with it... he'd do it again in a heart beat.

Feral

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Monday, July 28, 2003 8:21 AM

TRAGICSTORY

First off, I am glad you signed up to answer my question.

Second, let me play the devil's advocate.

I see Jayne as betraying them in because of Simon's action in Serenity. I believe Jayne is a "Unit, Core, God, Country" character that did not believe Simon and River were part of his "unit" until his superior, Mal, told them they were.

I see him as repenting once he finds out what the Alliance did to River. Hence the leaving early bit. Not going to give all my arguements one way or the other cuz it will kill the thread and we have a long way to go till Dec.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, July 28, 2003 10:16 AM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
I believe Jayne is a "Unit, Core, God, Country" character that did not believe Simon and River were part of his "unit" until his superior, Mal, told them they were.

Jayne has never been in the military and has no code other than what's good for Jayne. In Out of Gas he was with a crew who he shot and betrayed because Mal offered him more money. In Jaynestown you find out he tossed a partner out the door of a ship to get away. Jayne only cares about money and only fears Mal, these two things form about as much of a conscience as he has.

Now having said all that, he does have some soft spots, Kaylee for one, his mother for another. Jayne has obviously lived a hard life with even harder people and has learned to look out for number one. But I think the "family" atmosphere in Serenity is slowly (VERY slowly) having an effect on him, I don't think he will ever be trustworthy but we may see moments of humanity in Jayne in the future (assuming Firefly has one).

Still flyin'...

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Monday, July 28, 2003 10:45 AM

TRAGICSTORY

To counter:

I have NEVER had military training BUT if Fox comes knocking ony door blaming me for copyright infrngment for ALL of Firefly.net. I would admit all guilt, tell them to FUCK OFF and go to jail.

Just because you have never been in the military does not mean one can not sacrifice one'self for the greater good.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Monday, July 28, 2003 2:15 PM

BLACKSTAR

I agree, in part, wtih Flyinfree. Jayne is a mercenary who's main concern is the money. That's not to say that he has no loyalties at all, he certainly has some, ie to Mal and the rest of Serenity's crew, but that loyalty only extends so far. In the pilot episode Serenity Jayne was, at least partly, considering Dobson's offer to turn in River and Simon, but decided against it because of the lack of certainty. In Buswhacked he was ready to leave Mal and Zoe to the Feds to keep from angering Nyska. In Ariel he just continues this trend. I belive that given the chance to profit from turning in River and Sam, Jayne would do it with little hesitation.

Oh, MY GOD! WHO'S FLYING THIS THING!!! Oh, yeah, that would be me...

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Monday, July 28, 2003 3:33 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

If you watch the sceen with the cool 3D brain scanner gizmo, he was totally disinterested until Simon started rambling about " them cutting Rivers Brain " at this point Jayne starts to ask a question or two, and seems to feel revulsion towards those who did this to her.

When Jayne joined the crew, and even more importantly when Mal made the offer, Mal looked at Jayne and seen something more than he was. With Mals experience from the war, leading a milita military unit ( not regulars, a pickup collection of volunteers ) he would be good at assessing and motivating a wide variety of personalities. I think he noticed a potential in Jayne, I think that is why Mal kept him around, and I think that is why he gave Jayne a second chance after Ariel. If Zoe had been in command, I don't believe this would have happened, mind you I think Zoe while being a hell of a soldier might be out of her element taking over in a long term capacity.

Yet another minor reoccuring plot line,

The redemption of Jayne Cobb...

" If wishes were Horses, then we'd all be eatting Steak "

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Monday, July 28, 2003 6:12 PM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
Mal looked at Jayne and seen something more than he was.

When Mal looked at Jayne it was because Jayne had tracked them down with such ease, what he saw was skill, not any kind of redemptive quality. Mal doesn't trust Jayne, never has and never will. He always warns the other crew members not to trust him. He always keeps an eye on him, and smacks him down to keep him in line.

Once you know you can't trust someone and you know the reasons for it, you can use them as long as you keep those reasons in mind. Jayne is useful so Mal deals with him. Mal is also a sap as Tracey points out in The Message, and reckless as shown in several episodes. Mal probably shouldn't have kept Jayne around, but doesn't like the idea of screwing Jayne over until he has to. Mal usually lets his enemies live after he defeats them (Patience, the crooked Alliance officer in The Message, the guy he duelled with), this invariably will cause him problems in the future. If there's anything movies and TV has taught us, kill the badguy cause he'll just keep coming back, you can't have a recurring villian if you don't let him recur.

Quote:
"He won't kill anyone unless he has to. Nice guys can only get so mad. But when you're hollowed out inside you can get pretty mad." - Nathan Fillion on Mal

Still flyin'...

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Monday, July 28, 2003 6:51 PM

GINOBIFFARONI

He doesn't have to kill Jayne, he always has had the option of putting him off the boat as he did with Bester.

If you watch the Mal / Jayne interaction, it is almost Father / Son in many ways. One scene in particular, the end of Jaynestown where Mal talks of heroes and men who have statues in their honor. Jayne doesn't get it, but Mal is trying to explain it to him and that is the real point.

Also from the Message, Book suggests the course of action to follow, but Mal hesitates until Jayne supports the good Shepards position. That indicates a bit of trust and respect in his opinion to me.

And after all, if we had a crew that just blindly followed orders without any personal motives, we'd be watching Star Trek.

" If wishes were Horses, then we'd all be eatting Steak "

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Monday, July 28, 2003 7:43 PM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
He doesn't have to kill Jayne, he always has had the option of putting him off the boat as he did with Bester.

No, he'd have to kill him. If he put him off the ship Jayne would just turn the lot of them in. As long as Simon and River are on board, Jayne has to be kept on a short lease, or killed.

Don't get me wrong, I love Jayne. I think he's the best character on the show.

Still flyin'...

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Monday, July 28, 2003 7:58 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

I am of the opinion that Jayne HAS changed his ways, but that he will be tempted in the future to prove it.

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Monday, July 28, 2003 10:27 PM

ARCHER

Ah yes, I've had this one out a few times with various people. My opinion is that Mal should have killed him at the end of Ariel, and I fully believe Mal was ready to, until Jayne hit him at his weak spot. Mal is on the outs with religion, but he still has all the old ethics in his heart, and a belief that anybody can be redeemed.

As for Jayne himself, I see him as a guy who at the core wants to be good, but he's never had the personal strength to pull it off. He's always been the muscle, hanging around with various scum, and being a fundamentally weak kind of guy, he behaves the way they expect him to.

Now he's on Serenity, and they still essentially treat him like a thug (with the exception of Kaylee and Book) and so he still acts the part. But I get the sense that certain things are starting to bleed over into his character. Where that was developing was in The Message, his scene with Book, and the letter from his mother.

There ain't nothin' I can't overcome or come to know. So lay your heavy load down on me, strip everything I have away. I am not your prisoner, I am not afraid.

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Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:05 AM

TRAGICSTORY

Don't forget the scene in Serenity where Jayne is crouching and peeking into the Med Bay to check in on Kaylee.

It is obvious that he is devoted to the crew and Simon threatened one of them.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Tuesday, July 29, 2003 9:55 AM

FLYINFREE

Quote:
Don't forget the scene in Serenity where Jayne is crouching and peeking into the Med Bay to check in on Kaylee.

It is obvious that he is devoted to the crew and Simon threatened one of them.

You are way too trusting.

There are other explainations for that:

1) Everybody has a soft spot for Kaylee.
2) Morbid curiousity.
3) Boredom, he just didn't have anything better to do and it was the only source of activity on the ship at the time.
4) He was waiting for the doc to finish so he could watch Mal kill him.

Still flyin'...

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Tuesday, July 29, 2003 10:24 AM

TRAGICSTORY

I love reason 4.

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"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Sunday, August 10, 2003 8:33 AM

TZEGHA

I think this will be *positive thinking* one of the big themes for Jayne, not just specific to Ariel:

Is he a traitor at heart, or is the purpose of his character redemption? Well, the latter is too common for some of the other characters (Mal, Book).

But to address the original question, I think Jayne just rolled with the punches, practical like. I think that River's attack on him, coupled with the opportunity and his belief that they are not part of the crew and a danger to them all, instigated his betrayal. Then he has several moments of doubt (sympathy for River when he learns of her torture, admiration for Simon when he saves the patient) but he sticks to his plan. Then the plan goes south (after he went ahead with it, despite his newfound doubts), and he tries to escape. The Tams coming along (or him dogging the Tams) is just another matter of course. They both needed to escape, plan is out the window, they just sorta stick together (mostly because of Simon's belief that they are together.

I discussed Jayne's role of redemption in older posts at the OB as well as in email (yes, I'm a freak, I talk about the show in analytical detail in private too) and I got to wondering:

Is Jayne the big soft, toothless cuddly lion that everyone is fearing he is becoming? Or is something dark and dangerous brewing beneath that momma's boy exterior. Jayne is dangerous even more so because that 'hidden teddy bear' that so many see gives a false sense of comfort. His seeming simplicity and 'stupidity' may belie a far more cunning intelligence (and there are all kinds of intelligence).

From the OB, post # 5799.124 ( http://forums.prospero.com/n/main.asp?webtag=foxfirefly&msg=5799.124&f
ind=Search), I hope I'm not out of place quoting Zencat (it starts out with a lot of Mal stuff, but hang in there):

"...Mal doesn't hope for anything good. He refers to himself, more than once, as a "bad man." (To Kaylee in "Serenity," "I'm a mean old man." Said with a weight of weariness, and I think he really believes it.) I think the thing about Mal is, he still does believe in his religion, but he believes his God betrayed him and in defiance he's tried to become - well, in a way, he's tried to become Jayne, a man who only cares for himself and what's his. Mal believes he won't be going to heaven, even if there is one, because he's turned his back on God. He's become a "bad man."

But he isn't, really. He's a good man, a hero, a compassionate protective generous man, and a leader. [snip] Instead of ditching Simon and River - which the ever-practical and ruthless man he's trying to be (*cough*Jayne) would have done, he makes them part of his crew. Part of himself."

I wrote in regards to this:
"Thinking about it, I see Jayne's development, if he doesn't go the rotten apple route, is him becoming less selfish, integrating himself as part of the group (I know, it's all obvious standard drivel, but I'm not real imaginative when it comes to Jayne-- and when it comes to Jayne, this stuff is rocket science ;P ), becoming less selfish, expanding his scope . . .
just as we are speculating Mal to do. Except with Jayne it's small baby steps, the scope is going from just One to Nine. With Mal it's going from Nine to the 'Verse (or some more manageable yet heroic number)."

Heidi wrote in response "It's a bit odd since the direction Mal is trying to shape Jayne is the exact opposite of the direction he himself wants to be like Jayne, but maybe that's another reason he both cuts Jayne so much slack and is so hard on him. He's conflicted about Jayne just like
he's conflicted about wanting to be like Jayne in some respects. [snip]It's like Mal tries to portray himself as a Jayne-type guy, wishes he could ditch his righteousness and finer sensibilities since they've served him so poorly. But at the same time he's influencing Jayne to have some of those sensibilities. Geez, no wonder Jayne gets confused or taken aback by Mal a lot - he's pretty gorram inconsistent! So Jayne is moving toward being more Mal-like while Mal is pretending to be (and half-assed trying to be?) Jayne-like.

On what continuums, do you think? Below you mentioned selfishness vs. selflessness, care for others, practical vs. heroic - that sort of thing. [snip] The only thing I wonder about is that she postulates that Mal is defiant against God by becoming Jayne-like and only caring for himself and what's his, where I've seen Mal as being defiant by daring to care about a small group of people, though I guess they to fall into the category of "himself and his." Maybe that's an area of struggle in Mal? Caring vs. not-caring as an issue not just because of the danger to his feelings but because of their relative effectiveness in his spat with god? Hmm, in this case maybe Jayne's a more important character than I had thought. And like you pointed out, their journies are both matters of scope of caring, just on vastly different scales."

Me, longwinded? Nah.

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Sunday, August 10, 2003 1:02 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

I think Jayne is loyal solely to himself and to his family, and I think that the crew of Serenity is his family.

Not that I think that you would hear Jayne put it that way.

I think he’s more loyal than he’d like to let on. In Serenity he was all set to hand over Simon and River, but he wouldn’t betray the captain. I don’t think it was because the money wasn’t good enough, or rather I think the money would never be good enough. He must have had many opportunities to turn in Simon and River, and I don’t doubt he was willing to the entire time, but he didn’t try until he could do it without directly betraying anyone he thought of as the crew.

I think that Jayne would risk his life for anyone who he considered crew without question, I also think the would complain about it the entire time. Just like when they went after the captain in War Stories I think he would say he wouldn’t, think of excuses to not do it, but in the end he would do it regardless of the risk to himself.

We don’t know how the crew earned family status with him, but they obviously have more than a working relationship, he kicked his partner out of a ship, and shot his previous crew when there was money on the line. All that it took was a better offer to betray his old crew and join Serenity, but in the episode Serenity he got a better offer and did not betray the crew. That shows there is more than what is on the surface.

(I don’t doubt that he would have gone back for Mal and Zoey in The Train Job, I just think he was going to take his time.)

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Monday, August 11, 2003 6:24 AM

RAW53X

Jayne is single minded. and when his mind is set, it takes a lot to change it. i think the reason he betraied simon and river is simple. he thinks simon is a liar and river is just crazy i dont think he really belives the experament story of simons untill the sceen in the scaner room. you can se him regret turning them in by the expreshion on his face.
also few have proven ther loyalty to him.
think about it he lives in a world were dubble dealing and backstabbing are a way of life. he has probley been betrayed by others he has trusted. he is a loaner but deep down most loaner really want to belong.
jayne is a charater who is ment to evolve and become more complex as the story continues. as apossed to the others whos complexiteis are unraveld as the show goes on.

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Monday, August 11, 2003 9:38 AM

HATEHATEHATEFOX

Quote:

I have NEVER had military training BUT if Fox comes knocking ony door blaming me for copyright infrngment for ALL of Firefly.net. I would admit all guilt, tell them to FUCK OFF and go to jail.

Just because you have never been in the military does not mean one can not sacrifice one'self for the greater good.

ROTFLMAO! I would post your bail! If I had any money that is!

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