What are your thoughts on god? Part 2 by christhecynic

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What are your thoughts on god? Part 2

POSTED BY: CHRISTHECYNIC
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 04:34
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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
The primary sin of mankind (and Satan before us) is pride

There are so many names, and legends that didn't make it in. For example Jesus made reference to the Book of Enoch, something you won't see in church today. But if by Satan you mean the Angel in the book of Job, he didn't sin before us, he sinned after. In Job Satan is the adversary of man, not of god. He works for god, and is welcome in god's presence.

Whenever the fall was, it was after Job, and Job was after the garden.

If anyone is pissed off at me because I said that, sorry, but theologians of Christian, Jewish, and Atheist viewpoints have agreed on this quite convincingly. (Convincing to me at least.)

This really is just an alternate view, though I stated it as fact, food for thought really.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:22 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Haze:
don’t feel the need to try and turn Religious types to my way of thinking. It’s a personal thing.

Would that more people were like you.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:27 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:
I firmly believe that God IS an essential part of the human experience.

The existance of a god, no matter how basic or odd, in all cultures we know of suggests that is true, whether god is real or not.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 12:38 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
Of course God is considered supernatural. He doesn't follow the rules of nature - wine from water, bringing people back from the dead, parting a sea, or any of the other hundreds of miracles mentioned in the bibles of the world.

You yourself said, "the very fact you can see it, measure it, or observe it's effects on the world in any way means it is natural, even if you can't explain it."

You telling me you don't believe that anymore? If a sea parts (sea near my house does it often enough) that would cause you to reject nature? If a substance could change in a previously unaccepted way that would mean you would throw out physics?

If time dead can be increased from hours to three days you'll fall to your knees and say, "I was wrong?"

I don't believe it. If it can be seen, measured, and its effects on the world can be observed it is natural, even if you can’t explain it.

-

I don't believe you would give up your beliefs so easily, I really don't. I mean when it was discovered that faith could heal people that didn't cause an outbreak of religion, just admitting the truth of the placebo effect.

When the theory was put forth that Sodom and Gomorra were the victims of what any insurance company would call and act of god and the residents were dumped into a salty sea (pillar of salt ring any bells?) it hardly made the people who were converted to the theory converted to religion.

When it was discovered that all of the plagues of Egypt (bloody Nile and death of firstborns included) were probably real did it make people give up on science? Hell no, it was science that made us understand them.

When people started being alive after they died (death by medical or legal terms, I leave it to you) did those resurrections make people give up on science? Not really, it just lead to the discovery a person electrocuted can, but usually won’t, come back without a defibrillator. If it is discovered that a person who died of crucifixion can come back without help will that make the doctors throw up their hands and get new jobs?

Beliefs are stronger than that.

Like lizards snakes and turkeys, now that we know animals with vertebrae (even warm blooded ones) can have virgin birth it doesn't make people praise god.

-

This is not solely directed at you, so don't take it personally, at all. It is not a personal attack, or any attack, it is just strong emphasis on the idea of miracles.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 1:02 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
The primary sin of mankind (and Satan before us) is pride
But if by Satan you mean the Angel in the book of Job, he didn't sin before us, he sinned after. In Job Satan is the adversary of man, not of god. He works for god, and is welcome in god's presence.

Whenever the fall was, it was after Job, and Job was after the garden.

I hate to disagree with the person who nice enough to start a second part to this thread for poor folks like me with dial-up, but...

I disagree. The book of Job was written after the Penteteuch (5 books of Moses). No one knows when the story took place, but it everyone I know (and have read) agrees that it took place after the fall -- including the Jewish rabbis who assembled the OT and believed Moses's writings as inerrant cannon. According to the OT, there was no mankind before Adam & Eve, so it would've been hard for Job to take place at that time.

And BTW, even Jesus (and the apostles) refer to Satan as "the accuser of the brethren (believers)", so he has apparently, always been able to come to and fro before the Lord to point the finger at us.

BTW, it may be time for a part 3. ???

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Monday, January 16, 2006 1:13 PM

NTLZYJSTDNTCARE

My view is that all notions of God are manmade, and if there is a higher power it has no relation to anything man has said on the matter.

At the same time I find it hard to believe that the creation of life is a coincidence. How did the first life come to exist for example?

There may well be a higher power imo, but we haven't seen any solid evidence of it yet, so I reserve my judgement.

not lazy just don't care (about anything but Firefly)

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Monday, January 16, 2006 1:31 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

cartoon,

I think you missed the point, the belief that Satan worked for God in the time of Job is used as an argument that Satan fell after that because Job was after Adam and Eve.

The idea is as follows:
The Fall follows Job, Job follows Eden, so the fall is after Eden.

It is, however, just a belief. And presented merely as something some people believe in.

Quote:
BTW, it may be time for a part 3. ???

If you mean, "it is time," rather than, "it may be," I shall make a part three, if you really me "it may be" we'll see what others think.

So, others, is it time for part 3?

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Monday, January 16, 2006 1:41 PM

QUEENOFTHENORTH

Okay, I have lots of thoughts on god, life, the universe, and everything.

So bear with me, cuz this is prolly gonna be a long post.

First off, I'll start by saying that I believe in a higher power. A being of divine wisdom that created us and everything, blah blah blah, etc. For convenience's sake, I will hereafter refer to this higher power as "God". It's shorter and easier to type than higher power. I believe that God is an embodiment of everything, an "all-in-one" kind of deal, male, female, father, child, hunter, hunted, and so forth.

Now, as to why I believe in God, it's simple. To look at the infinite vast complexity of the universe, the earth, all the species on it, not to mention just how complex people themselves are, and to attribute all that to some accidental "big bang" seems EXTREMELY farfetched to me, even moreso than the concept of God. I also think "big bang" is quite possibly the dumbest, most unoriginal name a person could think of for that occurence, but that's not the point.

Then there's also how people's lives turn out. Yes, I do believe we have free will and the ability to make our own choices and all that, but looking at the way things end up in people's lives even if that's not the way they thought or wanted things to happen, leads me to believe there must be something guiding or directing us.

Take, for example, the way my parents met. My dad left home at the age of 17 and traveled all over western Canada moving from job to job. One day he just happens to be in Red Deer, Alberta, and sees an ad on a bulletin board for a job in Ponoka, a little town that he'd never heard of before. So, he packs up his bags, heads to Ponoka, and gets the job. He then meets my mother at the bowling alley (they're both bowlers) and then they date, blah blah, and get married. But when you think about all the circumstances and other things that had to happen in order for my parents' paths to cross and for them to get married and have me and my brother, it gets very hard to believe that all this could happen by accident. I mean, if my dad had never seen that ad, there would be two people who wouldn't exist (me and my brother), and his life and my mom's life would be completely different, which in turn would affect probably hundreds of other lives. So it seems ridiculous to me to assume that something isn't guiding all of this.

So yeah, those are my compelling reasons to believe in God. That being said, I am not a religious church-goer. I do believe in God, and I try to live my life being a good person, not stealing, killing, and trying not to lie, etc. However, I don't follow any religion, because I believe that religions are man-made, fallible, entirely too flawed, and hypocritical. Not to mention, a lot of the religious people I've met have been some of the worst people that I've met.
Like my cousin's grandma, for example. (Not the one that we share, but their other grandma.) She was a very religious Christian, went to church twice a week, had lots of Jesus stuff, didn't even use the word "stupid" because she figured it was a swear-word. She was also the meanest bitch I've ever met. She treated my aunt like absolute crap because she didn't think my aunt was good enough for her precious son. Not to mention the way she treated me because she thought I was a bad influence on my cousins. She also treated all their friends absolutely horribly. Nobody, not even my cousins or her son, was really sad when she died. Which sounds horrible to say, but it's true. And she lived her life around a religion that is supposed to teach kindness and tolerance of others. Apparently she wasn't getting the message, even though she heard it all the time.

There's also the way that religions or religious intolerances have been responsible for some of mankind's most horrible atrocities: Crusades, Salem witch trials, Holocaust, 9/11, etc. People who believe they have the right to kill or judge in God's name because of religions just freak the hell out of me. This is not to say that I think all religious people are bad. I know some very good religious people. It's just it's too easy for fanaticism to lead people down the wrong path. This is why I will never participate in any religion. I will believe in God and do my best to be a good person, but I will never follow a man-made religion.

A little aside about supernatural stuff: I think anything is possible. Ghosts, aliens, what have you. To say that you know for sure something is impossible or doesn't exist is to say that you know everything, which is a statement I am not comfortable making. So I'll just believe that everything is possible, even if some things I never actually see for myself. Hell, I've never actually seen the South Pole - how do I know that exists?

Herein ends my lengthy post, if anybody actually read this far.

"I'm having one of those things - a headache with pictures."

"Sucker! Competitive violence, that's why you're here!"

Like books? Go to this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=14862
to find out how to buy mine!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 3:24 PM

CITIZEN

I don't believe in organised religions, they all seem so damn pious to me, they're right, everyone else is wrong. No idea that God might not actually care what you believe, long as you live your life right, and believe what you believe. I don't want to attack anyone’s beliefs, believe what you want; I just don't think any religion has got it right.

I do believe in what some would consider weird stuff, like psychic phenomena, not just because I've experienced it, precognition and presentiment mainly, but also because I've seen the amount of scientific evidence to support it, evidence largely suppressed by 'real' scientists.

I am going somewhere with this, one of the things suggested by Para-psychological research is the idea of group consciousness, the idea that everyone forms a part of a single ‘mind’, which if true could it not have some implications about the idea of God?

Or even thinking of it in a different way it always seems that religions want to separate us, god and the universe, this doesn't make sense to me. Surely if god was omnipotent God wouldn't be a separate entity to the universe and everything in it, God would be the universe and everything in it.

I think there’s a point buried in there somewhere.

Edit:
I suppose I could put it succinctly. I think the Universe could have formed naturally, that is without help from a God. Assuming a big bang followed by a big crunch and you’ve got a mechanism for the Universe to start again. At the point of singularity our universe didn’t exist, its physics even time itself didn’t exist, so why couldn’t the end of our universe be the catalyst for the beginning of our universe? Before the big bang and after the big crunch cause and effect no longer apply.

Is there a god, sure why not? Who are we to say the Universe isn’t constant, our current understanding of Physics say’s information can’t be gained about the future, but I’ve experienced it, our current understanding of physics is wrong.

Do I think that God is the same entity talked about in the Bible, Qur’an et al? No, not really, I don’t think they’re alike, I’m not even sure if God is entirely the right name for this entity, but it’s not entirely wrong either.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:11 PM

USMC

I appreciate religion alot. People need to feel that there will be consequences for their actions, and give them a meaning in life. Many people need religion to feel like a part of something and live a more fullfilled existence. I know there for a fact that god does not exist, but thats opinion. I am happy to know that when I die, I am no more. No soul or afterlife, when i am gone, the person i am no longer exist in any form (wormfood). I accept that totally and have no doubt about it.

This subject is awesome though, i love the opinions expressed (even the cooky talk). I am entertained to see how others think and perceive life. I hope more people express their opinions, seems the same people arguing over their own opinions the last day or so. I wanna see peoples opinions personally, not see others trying to say who is right or wrong.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:39 PM

RITAK7

Tom Delay brought me back to believing. How a man without talent, nor intelligence, nor charisma and certainly not good looks (face it good looks help) could reach such heights of power and influence sniff..sniff anyone else smell a Faustian bargain.

I do believe in Jesus Christ and that he sacrificed himself to save the human race and that we have proved very much unworthy of that sacrifice. But though my belief in Christ gives me comfort and hope I do not denigrate the faiths of others. Yaweh Allah and the Christian God are all one in the same. This is the God who revealed itself-gender is so banal i can't believe God is one or the other-to Abraham.

Prosleytizing fundamentalist and atheists are just out to ruin everyone's day. If God would exclude Ghandi from eternal salvation then this is not a god i worship and have no desire to honour. Since this is a SciFi site you should all be familar with 'Q'from Star Trek. If God really hates fags or those that write with their left hand I have no desire to please this petualant and capricious being, wheter it is omnipotent or not.
I believe the messages of Christ and Mohamed and all the Hebrew prophets have been corrupted by man. Man rationalizes his desires to suit his purposes and justifies selfserving vindictive exculsionary dogma while under the sway of evil.
It seems like these fire breathing so called Christians really must worship Zues rather than the God of Abraham. Remeber God told Abraham to sacrifice his son to God and then stop him pretty much saying Dude..this is not what it is all about i am not petty or cruel" the best message I can take from Christianity is the Golden Rule, which i am sure must be incarnated in other religions in equally handy sayings, DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE TO YOU
Oh FYI alot of these religious right wing fanatics that so avidly support Likud are supercessionists-that is they believe that the Covenant God made with the Jews will be superseded by their own-nice fellas huh?!

Anyone read the Screwtape Letters by C.S Lewis

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Monday, January 16, 2006 4:42 PM

STEPHANI

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Quote:
Originally posted by stephani:
Now I didn't read much of the other thread, but here's where I stand, I believe in a Goddess and a God. As everything in nature has both female and male counterparts, it makes sense to me that it's the same with the Divine. I believe both (the Goddess and the God) are present in everything, including everyone, and aren't "above" us or "superior" to us because they are us.
Interesting. Is this a Taoist belief, some form of Wicca or just a personal assessment?

Oh, he's so full of manure, that man! We could lay him in the dirt and grow another one just like him.
-- Ruby

Sorry it took so long to get back to you!

Its a form of Wiccan belief system :)

And I guess the best way to explain it is that the God is of the Goddess. She 'gave birth' to Him so to speak. Technically there is one, but there is also the aspect of the God as well. I'm not very good at explaining it though. Lemme know if this answers your questions, if not, I can try again :)

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:16 PM

RITAK7

Why do you spell G-d? please let me know i am fascinated.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 5:29 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
If you mean, "it is time," rather than, "it may be," I shall make a part three, if you really me "it may be" we'll see what others think.

So, others, is it time for part 3?

Seriously. Am I the only one in here with dial-up?!!?!?!?

Don't start another thread just on my account, but the more posts in a thread, the longer it takes to load for me. Normally, I won't click on any thread with more than 50 posts (like this one), as I can wait weeks for it to load (slight exaggeration allowed).

Even 30-message threads take seemingly forever, those 3-digit threads are killers. I avoid them like the plague.

Seriously? Just me?!?!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 6:02 PM

GIZMO

I'm a Catholic and believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins and rose from the dead.
I believe that God knows us better than we know ourselves and that His instruction is the right way.

History abhors a paradox.
-Kain

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Monday, January 16, 2006 6:12 PM

RITAK7

where do you live? I struggle to make ends meet as i make a meagre $24k and live in Boston. But since i am a full time student-more like a full time dosser all the hours i have spent on this site tonight-internet access is imperative. I had dial up I hear you oh my god oh my god I was doing penance as i waited for the damn thing, then i got a special thru Comcast Cable internet for $20/month for 6 months when that ended i switched to RCN cable internet for 6 months and now that that is coming to an end i am signing on for a kick ass deal with Verizon DSL for $14.95/month with a one year contract. You should check it out it can save your sanity and your money!

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Monday, January 16, 2006 8:42 PM

AERIN

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

My beliefs really don’t make any sense. I was raised Catholic, but I’m a scientist. A lot of the Christian doctrine doesn’t make sense to me – how could a loving god do things that are (in my opinion) worse than what I would ever do? I’m not perfect, but I wouldn’t condemn the unbaptised or disbelievers. Honestly, if hell existed, I don’t think I could send anyone there. Eternity is a long time to be tortured. So on one hand I say, “if there is a god, it’s a force of nature,” but then when I pass a car accident I pray that god will take care of them. My dad got a kidney transplant under conditions that seem pretty miraculous, so my first thought was to thank god. Of course, I would argue the existence of god can never be empirically proven.

I believe in god for purely emotional reasons. Around Valentine’s Day the kids at my parents’ church read a scripture that says “God is love”. That feels right to me. I believe in God because of love, beauty, and self-awareness. I don’t know what God is, but he/it doesn’t tell me what to do. I only believe in the devil insofar as evil is of our own making. Neither evil nor good exist in the animal kingdom, at least not by our perceptions. Hell is a place we make for ourselves when we treat others as we would NOT wish to be treated. Since I don’t really understand my own views, I can’t judge others, but I refuse to accept any religion that strays from the golden rule. And I won’t believe in god out of fear.

I agree that religion should be taught in school. Not what to believe, but what the world believes. I think it’s a crucial part of understanding history, understanding each other, and preventing a recurrence of past mistakes.

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Monday, January 16, 2006 9:23 PM

MATTIE

Of course it doesn't matter if I feel like a minority in this discussion. What I believe is important to me, and I want others to know that. Maybe I should have said that instead. Excuuuuuse me! (Only joking, I know it's in your nature to be cynical, Chris.) Any other questions? (Do I really mean that?)

Wacky fun!

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Tuesday, January 17, 2006 4:34 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Mattie:
Of course it doesn't matter if I feel like a minority in this discussion. What I believe is important to me, and I want others to know that. Maybe I should have said that instead. Excuuuuuse me! (Only joking, I know it's in your nature to be cynical, Chris.)

I knew that, I just wanted to hear you say it, and not have others get the wrong idea (plus make sure I wasn't the one with the wrong idea.)

It's just that the way you said it sounded, to me, like it could be interpreted that you wouldn't care as much under different circumstances.

-

This post is also notification, we will now have a Part 3, by request. I’ve never started something that got long enough for someone to request a part two before. Now there is a part three:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=16736

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