Technical explanation for Vera by oct0gen

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Technical explanation for Vera

POSTED BY: OCT0GEN
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 21:56
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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:53 AM

as an engineer and a firearm enthusiast, i was bothered with jayne’s comment that vera needed oxygen around her to fire. to me is seemed like a glaring technical inaccuracy since real firearms don’t need an oxygen rich atmosphere to function. in fact, other than dealing with recoil in 0g and re-zeroing the sight, firearms would work fine in a vacuum. i know... its sci-fi and i should get over it. but to me, the sci in sci-fi implies that there should be some reasonable explanation for the function of a futuristic device. anyway, it got me thinking: what type of projectile propulsion would require an atmosphere? first thought was something similar to the wwii german rocket rounds or gyrojet guns but with an air breathing engine like a ramjet. a few internet searches later and i was satisfied with the conclusion that vera must be a “solid fuel ramrocket accelerator”. ive pasted a few links that show background on a possible means of operation.

http://www.aa.washington.edu/aerp/ramac/ramstats.html

http://www.sover.net/~sbjohn/chemistry/chemx/ramjet.html

http://www.nas.nasa.gov/about/education/spacesettlement/nowicki/spbi10
4.htm

the ramrocket cartridge is accelerated normally with a fuel/oxidizer mix to m1 at the back of the barrel. @ m1 the non-oxidized fuel begins to combust with the atmo in the barrel and the round functions as a ramjet for the remaining portion on the barrel. to work well in space, it is assumed that all non-oxidized fuel would be consumed before the projectile leaves the barrel.

if you are an anal-retentive-technical-detail-oriented-geek like me and was uncomfortable with jayne's description, hopefully this made you feel better.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:59 AM

BAPTISMO

Is Firefly really a "scifi"?

I would class it as a "space opera" myself.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:09 PM

CARTOON

Let's not forget, oct0gen, that Jayne isn't particularly the shiniest bulb in the socket.

Maybe, he meant that he needed oxygen to operate Vera.

Okay, okay!! I admit it!! I'm just making excuses for Jayne!!

I'd still prefer to have Mr. Cobb next to me in a firefight -- assuming that fictious characters could really be there and fight -- and that I never turned my back on him -- and had nothing of value on my person -- and there were no particularly hot babes in the vicinity to distract him (or me, for that matter).

"The girl's a problem."

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:09 PM

BWARE42

Plus, Jayne was not blessed with an abundance of schoolin'...Maybe he just didn't know.

That's what I love about sci-fi - you can justify anything!

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:10 PM

GUNRUNNER

My theory has always been that there is some government reg requiring all large caliber bullets not to work in vacuum (or thin atmo) to make it difficult to forcibly board a ship. A large ship (like an Alliance or Corporate ship) could vent the atmo in sections overrun by boarders (assuming their security personnel don protective suits like real life OABs) either killing the boarders or disabling their guns (at least restricting them to smaller sidearms). Now most pirates could modify their weapons to fire in vacuum but its probably expensive and prevents people from getting in to the pirating business easily.

EV Nova Firefly mod Message Board:
http://s4.invisionfree.com/GunRunner/index.php?act=idx

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:14 PM

RIVER6213

How would YOU like to be SHOT by a gun named "VerA?"

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:16 PM

CARTOON

Don't frankly think I'd like to be shot by any gun -- whatever it's name was.

"You asked me what a man like me would kill for. And she's it."

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:29 PM

N0SKILLZ

I'm to lazy to read all the posts. But doesn't a bullet shoot because of a explosion of gun powder? so wouldn't a explosion need air to happen?

-------------------------------

RAF Lakenheath

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 12:43 PM

OCT0GEN

gunpowder is mix of nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and/or nitroguanadine. the oxygen comes from the no3 nitro group and reacts with the carbons and hydrogens in the cellulose or glycerin (although i think cellulose has some oxygen already in it) to form gasses and heat to propel the bullet. also a lot of energy comes from the triple bonding of the nitrogen to from n2. so, like a rocket engine, bullets need no atmospheric oxygen to function.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:38 PM

QUIXOTIC

Perhaps Vera is a matchlock, and we've just all missed it?

In all seriousness, I should have seen this technicallity, but Firefly's dramatic choices tend to blind my otherwise decent common sense. This is no small point, and means that the show was worthy of my attention. Case in point: during National Treasure's climactic scene I was more concerned that the set was built using out of date nails than I was for any of the heroes.

Perhaps this is just the definitive proof that Joss can wipe the floor with the likes of Jerry Bruckheimer.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 6:10 PM

AERIN

Wow, I don't know anything about guns, so I had to look that up. I didn't know gunpowder had its owner oxidizers. This is why I'm so addicted to this site!

My first reaction is that Jayne didn't know any better, but he knows his stuff when it comes to tracking and shooting. If he says Vera needs oxygen, then I believe him.

Jayne: I once hit a guy in the neck from 500 yards with a bent scope. Don't that count upstairs?
Book: Oh, it'll be taken into consideration.
Jayne: You made that sound kind of ominous.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:56 PM

REAVERINA1985RIVIERA

What I want is an explanation as to why Vera wan't in the BDM. If she's his Very Favorite Gun, why wasn't he hugging her for comfort when Serenity was coasting through Reaver space?

---------------------------------------------
The real-life box droppin', man-ape gone wrong thing, now without the pesky falling boxes

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:00 PM

N0SKILLZ

Quote:
Originally posted by oct0gen:
gunpowder is mix of nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and/or nitroguanadine. the oxygen comes from the no3 nitro group and reacts with the carbons and hydrogens in the cellulose or glycerin (although i think cellulose has some oxygen already in it) to form gasses and heat to propel the bullet. also a lot of energy comes from the triple bonding of the nitrogen to from n2. so, like a rocket engine, bullets need no atmospheric oxygen to function.

ahhh, that explains it then.

-------------------------------

RAF Lakenheath

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:17 PM

J6NGO1977

Fantastic! I honestly just presumed that Vera would need an atmosphere to function. So I never argued the 'Vera in a spacesuit' theory. This is just the best forum. I just don't get to talk about Firefly but I also get to learn about science as well. So when I go in to work next I can bore my friends with 'Did you know......' conversation. LOL

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:27 PM

SAINTJAYNIAC

More goodies on Vera :)

http://www.fireflywiki.org/Firefly/CallahanFullboreAutolock

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:37 PM

SHINYTALENT

Ok, so that's awesome that you found all of that but I actually have a teeny problem- I'm not a total gun-nut- I like guns but can't usually tell one gun from the other well I asked someone exactly what sort of gun Vera was and they said she was a "mish-mash of parts"
Being an engineer and a fire-arm enthusiast could you tell me exactly what parts? If you know??

Thanks

The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:48 PM

SAINTJAYNIAC

The link on my last post 'splains it a bit. It's a shotgun based on the Kalishnikov action, which is the same action that the AK-47 uses. It got gussied up with all sorts of purty bolt-ons to make it more Jayne'esque :)

TRAP!

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:51 PM

SHINYTALENT

Cool, thanks loads for that- it'll tie into a Jayne-based fanfic I'm writing! You're a life saver!

The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds given adequate vacuuming systems.

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Wednesday, January 18, 2006 9:56 PM

FLETCH2

I had two thoughts.

1) It needed air for cooling. In a vacuum there would be almost no heat transfer and if the propelent had enough kick that could cause problems with parts unevenly expanding and maybe causing a jam.

2) Leeching. If the rounds are caseless it could be that the propelent outgasses in vacuum and that could ruin the round or make the burn uneven enough to seriously effect accuracy.

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