RE: by chrisisall

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

RE:

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Monday, January 23, 2006 19:05
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Sunday, January 22, 2006 5:15 PM

*SPOILERS FOR THOSE UNFORTUNATE SOULS THAT HAVEN'T SEEN THE BDM YET*

There seems to me to be a strong 'karma' statement in Serenity; Mal didn't kill the Operative, and in not doing so, saved all their lives by way of the Operative's paradigm shift.

Any Buddahist-leaning Browncoats out there that can throw in your comments?

Chrisisall with his plastic rocket

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 5:52 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Chrisisall, I'm only Buddhist by desire, don't actually know too much about it, but if I'm right you tell me....

I think it's karmic because Mal takes what is coming his way and makes his way thru it coming out the other side having done the best he can and on his own, believing in himself and his ability to do what he has to do and do it well. I think as well that he shifted both their paradigms by letting the Operative live. Mal comes out of what he goes thru changed, I hesitate to say reborn but maybe redeemed?

I'm hoping you will let me know if I'm way off base.

"Storms getting worse." River
"We'll pass through it soon enough." Mal

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 6:31 PM

JUBELLATE

I am not so enlightened, but I have the utmost respect for buddhists and their beautiful religion.

And I can see how Mal could be seen as being merciful to "The Operative", but I do not believe that was Mal's concern, regardless of the kharma involved. I believe Mal gave the Operative a fate worse than death, truth. He destroyed the belief of the Operative and left him with nothing.

Mal didn't forgive the Operative as he concluded "I just as soon kill you if I see you again", but Mal had come to believe in the power of truth and through that belief conquered the Operative and destroyed his belief. Maybe it changed Mal in some way, but he certainly hadn't ended his war with the Alliance. He just found a guiding philosophy for the time being.

The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. – H.L. Mencken

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Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:21 PM

PRINCESSROHANNEN

I hearby reveal my ignorance:

What's a paradigm shift?
Is that anything like a character arc?

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Monday, January 23, 2006 9:08 AM

GUTSC1

Not sure if you knew that in real life "Book" Ron Glass is in fact a Buddhist. I remember Tim talking about that during one of the episode commentaries.

Ron was bringing too much a Buddhist perspective to one of the takes and Tim was telling him that they needed to got with a more Protestant take on it. Actually I think it might be in the "Out of Gas" commentary.

Just some "gee wizz" stuff. Take care

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Monday, January 23, 2006 9:54 AM

RIGHTEOUS9

I know very little about Bhuddism, but everything I've ever discovered about it has fascinated me with how profetic its teachings seem to be. What I mean is as a religion, it seems so at one with science and our understanding of the universe today. The idea that everything is tied together and is somehow the same is amazingly apt.

In terms of its relationship to firefly...

I wrote a review on amazon saying that there is no place for karma in this universe, but thankfully there's Serentiy...or something sappy like that. I'll probably amend that slightely, here.

What I meant when I wrote it, is that goodness isn't about the reward. That Zoe spells out what heroism pretty well. 'someone who gets other people killed.' True to that idea, that's exactly what happens. Wash dies for everybodies efforts. So, yeah, I think that the hard lesson is that there are no rewards in this lifetime aside of your own peace of mind, or 'serenity'.

However, if everything is all connected...if we can look at ourself as part of a whole, then maybe there is karma...and maybe in a way the crew is getting repaid by their part in saving humanity in their small way. Some day in the future, that act of goodness might be the snowflake that turned into the avalanche...etc.

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Monday, January 23, 2006 10:03 AM

SPINLAND

I think you're on to something there, Chris. Look at the almost careless way he dispatched people--unarmed people--throughout the movie, and I submit each time the act could be linked to some sort of defeat for him. Then, when he's completely in control, he takes the moral high ground and spares a life--a life which was dedicated to taking his if at all possible and which it could be argued he was justified in taking. Rewards rain down, Mal wins. Very Zen, methinks.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

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Monday, January 23, 2006 10:26 AM

CHRISISALL

FollowMal, you, Jubellate, Rightous9, and Spinland are all very promising Buddhists as far as I can tell

Buddha bless you:)

Karmic-like Chrisisall

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Monday, January 23, 2006 10:27 AM

CHRISISALL

Spinland! Very precise take, IMHO.

Mal-adjusted Chrisisall

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Monday, January 23, 2006 10:30 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by PrincessRohannen:

What's a paradigm shift?

Basically, a fundamental change in beliefs due to a massive re-evaluation of conflicting data.
Turned around, so to speak.

Un-Webster-like Chrisisall

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Monday, January 23, 2006 11:25 AM

FOLLOWMAL

*bows politely*

Thank you. I am learning, I hope.

Any books or learned materials you can recommend I would be happy to know about.

" I start fighting a war, I guarantee you'll see something new. " Mal

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Monday, January 23, 2006 11:42 AM

MICO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
*SPOILERS FOR THOSE UNFORTUNATE SOULS THAT HAVEN'T SEEN THE BDM YET*

There seems to me to be a strong 'karma' statement in Serenity; Mal didn't kill the Operative, and in not doing so, saved all their lives by way of the Operative's paradigm shift.

Any Buddahist-leaning Browncoats out there that can throw in your comments?

Chrisisall with his plastic rocket

I think what Mal did was worse than killing the Operative. There's an old saying: Have a care what you wish for; you just might get it. The Operative was looking for "a world without sin." When Mal refuses to kill him, Mal tells the Operative that he's going to grant the Operative's greatest wish and show him his "world without sin." That happens on two levels -- the ironic level (here's your oh-so-perfect Alliance, you idiot), and on the literal level (the people on Miranda weren't doing much sinning, and as a result they weren't doing much living, either). By giving the Operative what he was looking for (and by showing him how awful what he believed in really was), Mal took away the Operative's reason for living. ISTM that's a fate worse than death.

Mal knew what impact that would have on the Operative from his own experience. He lost his reason for living in Serenity Valley and continued as a relatively hollow shell until Book helped him to see that belief in something bigger than himself was essential to go on. You could hear that the hopelessness was wearing Mal down at the beginning of the BDM when he says to River "It's what I do, darlin'. It's what I do."

I don't know if this is particularly Buddhist, but I see Serenity as an analogy for the body, and the 7 remaining crew members are the chakras. Jane = root or 1st chakra; Kaylee = 2nd; Zoe = 3; Inara = 4; Simon = 5; River = 6; and Mal = 7. Once Mal internalized the message of his conscience (Book) he no longer needed the distraction of his immature ego (Wash). Serenity is a whole being with all of its parts working together under the direction of the captain. It's what we're all trying to do, and to me, that's why the series and the movie strike such an emotional chord with so many people. We recognize at an unconscious level the deeper, archetypal symbology there.

Sorry to ramble on so long. This has fascinated me for a while.

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Monday, January 23, 2006 12:01 PM

DIETCOKE

I also think it has a bit of a Christian theme too. Show compassion. "You who has not sinned cast the first stone."

Christ had followers who were tax collectors, whores, and leppers. He didn't kill them, he showed compassion and they changed themselves.

NY/NJ/CT Browncoats: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly_nyc

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Monday, January 23, 2006 1:00 PM

CITIZEN

Well Inara seems to be a Buddhist, and Mal asks Buddha for a plastic rocket and a pony I believe.

Life is suffering
Well, that seems to fit Mal and the crew.
Suffering is due to attachment
Mal's attachment to the War/Serenity Valley for instance?
Attachment can be overcome
River overcame her attachment to Miranda, "I'm all right. I'm all right."
There is a path for accomplishing this.
The truth?

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
The statistics on sanity are that one out of every four persons is suffering from some sort of mental illness. Think of your three best friends -- if they're okay, then it's you.

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Monday, January 23, 2006 1:17 PM

SPINLAND

Very interesting insights, mico. Bringing Chakras into it is especially thought-provoking. Good stuff!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

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Monday, January 23, 2006 1:39 PM

SHINY

Metaphorically karmic yes, but in the literal teachings, I believe karma has more to do with how your actions affect how you are reincarnated in your next life rather than how your actions today affect your (current) life tomorrow...

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Monday, January 23, 2006 3:57 PM

SPINLAND

Granted, Shiny, but in the allegorical sense? Do you find anything in how the choices and changes that can be interpreted as an analogue to Buddhist schools of thought? Since the BDM isn't literally about the life of Buddha methinks we're clear on how it wouldn't follow literal teachings.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"That's what governments are for, [to] get in a man's way." -- Malcolm Reynolds

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Monday, January 23, 2006 6:00 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by FollowMal:

Any books or learned materials you can recommend I would be happy to know about.

Mal

A Path With Heart, by Jack Kornfeild
Start Where You Are, by Pema Chodron
Those are good starters.

Chrisisall, sending a pony, also

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Monday, January 23, 2006 6:02 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Life is suffering
Well, that seems to fit Mal and the crew.
Suffering is due to attachment
Mal's attachment to the War/Serenity Valley for instance?
Attachment can be overcome
River overcame her attachment to Miranda, "I'm all right. I'm all right."
There is a path for accomplishing this.
The truth?

Indeed you are insightful as the Buddha has forseen.

Excellent, C.

The always delighted Chrisisall

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Monday, January 23, 2006 7:02 PM

OOKAMIKAWAHARA

In response to everyone asking about references on Buddhism. Two are: "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha: Teachings of Zen Master Seung Sahn" Complied and edited by Mitchell, Stephen. Grove Press, New York. 1976.

"Buddhist Text Through the Ages" Trans and edited by Conze, Edward; Horner, I.B.; and Waley,Arthur. OneWoorld, Oxford. 1995.

Hope these help. These were texts that I used in my Buddhist philosophy class for College. I would highly recommend "Dropping Ashes on the Buddha" it talks about this particular Zen master's questions that he gives his students. I would have to reread it to see if it makes as much sense w/ out my professors explanation. But it is a very good read and the answers given are very interesting. Hope this helps everyone. I have been keeping an eye on this thread, but since I'm not Buddhist and can't remember much of my class work that would help haven't thrown anything in yet. Although I am Christian, I do believe more in the middle path persay and try to combine that in my outlook on life etc. One of the questions is used: is does a cat have Buddha-nature?
mata, Ookami yori

Does Cat have Buddha-nature?

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