Simon and Kaylee - Meant to last or meant to not? by TamSibling

I can see those two just as easily working out as falling apart.

Pro: they force each other to grow.

Kaylee has to accept in Simon a man who cannot be HER hero. He's River's. Unlike every other man on the ship, he's not trying to protect her. She has to learn endurance and grow a bit of a spine during the course of their pre-romance. She starts standing up to the men in her life, let's go of her tendency to wait for a "perfect moment".
The Message is a very important eppy, there. The confrontation with Mal in the movie is also an excellent example.

Simon, on the other hand, finds in her someone who forces him to adapt to a new world but also has the patience to show him how. Simon operates strictly on familiar patterns, so this is indeed an important thing. Plus, she allows him to step outside of his tunnel-vision regarding River. Be just himself for a moment, remember the bright side to life.

Con: They really do not have so much in common. In fact, nothing at all, beyond sex and the above mentioned temporary effects.

Kaylee is pretty entrenched in her role as Serenity's mechanic. It's almost ideal, in her mind. She has all these fantasies about "fancy" things and at the same time she mocks the things that Simon still holds dear about that kind of life, like propriety.
I imagine she still has some illusions about what married life might be like, such as happy-sunshiny romance forever that would be shattered with the continued reality of Simon's caring for River. Not like River's brain will ever be un-cut on. It'd never be just them.
Add the burden of children and this could easily become a bad strain.

Simon lacks the sense of adventure that is inherent to Kaylee, but at the same time I think he would be bored with just a family life somewhere. He was a trauma surgeon, after all. I bet he misses that controlled adrenaline kick, the sense of being useful without being in danger.

The life he left behind was pretty much ideal for him, and in Kaylee he doesn't have someone who could even remotely substitute the thrill of academic challenges. She's brilliant but not in the spheres that he is.

They are both gifted, but in entirely different fields.

Much as I adore them, I can't find a single thing that they would both have in common, long-term. Something beyond sex or helping each other grow up to a point.

My guess would be a hot and mutually beneficial short-term relationship with a drawn-out break-up period but eventual friendship.

I'd gladly be convinced otherwise, though, if someone sees it differently. :)

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 4:14 AM

Come on, you all know exactly what would happen. Of course Simon and Kaylee are great and perfect for each other. But remember that this is a Joss Whedon show, which means that Simon would end up shooting Kaylee, or something else totally unexpected, like Simon getting shot with a Reaver harpoon.

Thier happiness wouldn't last in the Whedonverse because conflict is ultimately more interesting than contentment.

Like the rest of you, I'm excited to see what Joss does with this WHEN we get our SERIES back from the black abyss of ignorance.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:17 AM

Simon and Kaylee work only on the carefully constructed world of Serenity. Off the ship, they belong in one another's worlds no more than Inara and Mal do in each other's.

As long as their fugitives on the run, and stuck aboard the same ship, they've got a good chance to stay together, but as soon as some of that tension is off, the difference in their worlds will tear them apart. In "Shindig" and "Safe", respectively, we get to see what happens when Kaylee enters Simon's "world" and when Simon enter's Kaylee's. Ain't neither thing too pretty.

Heap onto that Simon's responsibilities toward River, which will be ever-changing and never really go away, and you've got a recipe for folks who're are going to drift apart despite their best intentions.

They're a cute couple, and they're a fun "underdog couple" to root for, but there's no doubt in my mind that, when the show continues, they won't get more than a season or two of together time. Of, if things continue as movies, I think we'll see one of them as the next casualty.

This is Whedon, after all, and Whedon hates love.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:24 AM

Quote:
This is Whedon, after all, and Whedon hates love.

Too true! You know it's not going to last, because the loves that last are few and far between. There's too much shifting and complexity in life to simply fall for the first red-headed mechanic that comes along. The pressures that threw them together will eventually pull them apart. In the FF/S world, only Zoe and Wash's love was forvever I think. Mal and Inara are too proud to actually love each other. And since Wash, well, you know, I don't think Zoe loves again. Then again, we are talking about Mr. Whedon, the man who gave us the pregnant vampire and other foolishness. Probably, WHEN the series starts up again, Zoe will end up with Simon, Kaylee will join the Alliance, Mal will fall in love with her since he loves to love what he can't have, River will become a companion, Inara will be captain of the ship, and Jayne will run for Parliment.

By the way, what an appropriate topic for Valentine's Day.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:32 AM

I think a lot of it (and who winds up with who) really depends on the direction of the show. For example, if everyone stays on the ship, various couples DO have a bit of a chance, but if they don't, I would ultimately seen Simon and Inara together on a Core World somewhere, while Mal and Kaylee end up married and raising a gaggle of kids on Serenity. Of course, that's at the end of Season Seven, after the second war, and there's be lots of twists and turns to get there... And might be a little too obvious!

As someone posted in another thread, recently, who would POSSIBLY had predicted the romantic twists on Buffy/Angel? Willow dating a lesbian Slayerette? Buffy and Spike? Angel falling for Cordy? Xander engaged to a demon? (Well, okay, that one, sure).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:36 AM

That's true. I know Buffy and Angel constantly took me by surprise. My wife was always rooting for Wes and Fred to get together, because you just knew they would. Then, when they do, she's eated up inside by a giganto demon. Never saw it coming.

By the way, I like the arc of season seven, sounds like a good HALFWAY mark for the series. Just think, after fourteen years of Firefly back on TV they can make a final movie about all the old characters called SENILIYT.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
while Mal and Kaylee end up married and raising a gaggle of kids on Serenity.

*cringe*

He calls her mei-mei!! He treats her like a daughter, almost.

What would young and blooming Kaylee want with someone like Mal, who's old beyond his years and paternally pets her head like she's a German Shepherd? She needs someone to start out life with, not retire.

What would layered cynic Mal want with an open book of a child-woman who follows his every command without question? He needs an emotional resting place, not a playback of every youthful illusion he's already rejected.

*shudder*

Much as it pains me, but Mal ending up in an undeveloping, mirror-image, two-rebellous-people-with-nowhere-to-go relationship with River seems more like to me than destroying that beautiful rewarding friendship between him and Kaylee.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:49 AM

I think Whedon's sort of stated that his intention was for "Firefly" to go seven seasons (giving some indication of the number of stories he had to tell). Of course, there's no reason those characters might not continue for another in a spin-off! Seven years in the black, seven years in the Core Worlds, say? Has a certain symmetry, no?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 5:54 AM

Everyone's got their own opinions and viewpoints, and, really, I'm not saying that I'm a Mal-Kaylee fan or anything, just that I could see it happening. As for the details--See the above statement about how Whedon continually surprised us during Buffy and Angel with pairing that initially seemed very unlikely.

Also, look at it from this point of view: Kaylee is already maternal toward Serenity, so it's going to take a lot of her to leave the ship. The ship, to Mal, represents independence, so he's never going to leave it. Of the crew we know now, they're gonna be the last two onboard. Together, the captain/pilot and first-mate/mechanic are all you'd need to keep flyin'...

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:02 AM

True, and insightful. The common bond of the love for Serenity could be the avenue needed to match them up and keep them together.

As for AGENTROUKA's comments about the paternal nature of Mal towards Kaylee, haven't you ever noticed someone under your nose for the first time? I remember the first time I noticed a friend's bratty sister I had grown up with was actually an attractive girl. Talk about conflict. Anyhoo, I think it's a mistake to interpret Kaylee's optimism and enthusiasim for simplemindedness. Many people I know, like my wife for example, are enthusiastic and trusting purposfully, not unknowingly or because of a lack of experience. In fact, it's usually in an effort to offest pessimism and cynicism that surrounds them. We have a mistaken assumption that cynics are somehow more enlightened, which is a mistake. But that's off-topic. To sum up: Mal and Kaylee could make perfect sense, which means that they will never get together. The only sense in Whedon's world is non-sense. Whatever you think is coming you're wrong. As the Book said about the Operative, they'll come at you from the side. Just like Joss. And isn't that why he's the shiniest of them all?

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
True, and insightful. The common bond of the love for Serenity could be the avenue needed to match them up and keep them together.

But isn't that a little... little to keep two people together? What about them as individuals? What connects them? Seems more like sex out of convenience if it's because these two stay aboard the ship the longest.

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Anyhoo, I think it's a mistake to interpret Kaylee's optimism and enthusiasim for simplemindedness. Many people I know, like my wife for example, are enthusiastic and trusting purposfully, not unknowingly or because of a lack of experience. In fact, it's usually in an effort to offest pessimism and cynicism that surrounds them. We have a mistaken assumption that cynics are somehow more enlightened, which is a mistake. But that's off-topic.

You misunderstood me. I never said that Kaylee is in any way simple-minded. I said she is an open book and an optimist to the point of illusion. That's very different.

She's smart and a character with depth, but she is not the sort of challenging personality that would keep Mal's attention, I think. He knows Kaylee because at her best she lets everything show and he's very good at reading people. He can easily manipulate her, just like a father can easily manipulate his children for their own good. (See "Out Of Gas".)

Where's the sense of continued discovery that keeps a relationship interesting? The sense of equality?

She reacts to him like a girl to an adult, not like a woman to a man. When she speaks up to him it's either indirect and avoidant ("Shindig") or in a somewhat whiny complaint style (the movie). They inhabit an unequal social status on the ship, be it with regards to age, education, experience or downright position of authority.

For Kaylee to grow into a woman who could begin to match Mal in personal strength, she'd have to lose a lot of what makes her Kaylee right now, she'd have to become someone else.

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Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:09 AM

I suppose I took your comment of optimisim to the point of illusion to mean naieve. Kaylee is certainly optimistic, but my argument is that I believe it is a matter of choice, not necessarily DNA.

As for the love of Serenity not being enough to keep them together, you are certainly correct, but it is enough to bring them together don't you think? And I have to wonder that if the idea of Kaylee not being a challenging personality isn't the point of interest for Mal. After all his shenanigans with Inara, it could conceiveable drive him to someone more straight-forward.

In terms of what keeps the relationship interesting, you bring up some good points. However, I think their staus of inequality would be a prime area to mine. How else could Mal learn to curb his acidic tongue but by damaging Kaylee. That's a scenario I've seen played out dozens of times in my own life. Hard-nosed types brought softer by the threat of hurting someone they care about. I could see it changing Mal, not Kaylee.

All in all, I must compliment you on your well thought-out approach AgentRouka.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by milford:
I suppose I took your comment of optimisim to the point of illusion to mean naieve. Kaylee is certainly optimistic, but my argument is that I believe it is a matter of choice, not necessarily DNA.

You'll get no argument on that from me. I completely agree. :)

Quote:

As for the love of Serenity not being enough to keep them together, you are certainly correct, but it is enough to bring them together don't you think? And I have to wonder that if the idea of Kaylee not being a challenging personality isn't the point of interest for Mal. After all his shenanigans with Inara, it could conceiveable drive him to someone more straight-forward.

The way I see it, it's exactly that child-like, innocent and open quality to her that has Mal treating her like a daughter. I just don't see his response to that changing, no matter how things do or don't work out with anyone else.

He could easily be looking for someone more straight-forward, I just don't think that it'd be someone as vulnerable as Kaylee, but again someone with a core of independent strength, who chooses to see the world with more realism.

That's, for me, a quality that's been inherent in all the women Mal has been attracted to on the show.
Inara - self-sufficient, self-confident, she'll confront his anger head-on, even in a very tense situation.
Saffron - showing her determined side is what eventually trips him up and in "Trash" you can tell he can't suppress a slice of respect for her incredible resourcefulness.
Nandi - she's a leader in exactly the same way Mal is.

For Mal to be sexually and romantically attracted to a person he has to protect from the cruelty of the 'verse just doesn't jive for me. It immediately gets him Papa Bear mode.

In fact, all these women have in common is the ability to let Mal take a break from protecting, like a vacation from the reality of being "Captain".

Quote:

In terms of what keeps the relationship interesting, you bring up some good points. However, I think their staus of inequality would be a prime area to mine. How else could Mal learn to curb his acidic tongue but by damaging Kaylee. That's a scenario I've seen played out dozens of times in my own life. Hard-nosed types brought softer by the threat of hurting someone they care about. I could see it changing Mal, not Kaylee.

But this she is already doing. Kaylee's presence gentles Mal's harsh side. That's the state of things right now.

He's not changing because of it, though. He's still the "mean old man", he just curbs his tongue around her.

It's directly tied to his paternal attitude of protecting her from the harsher aspects of life, of the people, of himself, which in my eyes, actually prevents any feelings of attraction, as it has a patronizing flavor.

It'd be different if they met on an equal plane in at least one significant aspect of their lives. But they don't. Mal is always in the superior position.

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 10:40 AM

Quote:
The way I see it, it's exactly that child-like, innocent and open quality to her that has Mal treating her like a daughter. I just don't see his response to that changing, no matter how things do or don't work out with anyone else.

Things always change, that's why it's so hard to shop for pants. Mal's fatherly/big bortherly feelings toward Kaylee give them the perfect jumping off point for a relationship.

Quote:
He could easily be looking for someone more straight-forward, I just don't think that it'd be someone as vulnerable as Kaylee, but again someone with a core of independent strength, who chooses to see the world with more realism.

That may be true, however, how are those relationships working out? Mal and Inara have exacly nada except potential and Saffron tried to kill him. What if that's because they're both too similar? Kaylee's approach to life might bring Mal a relief from conflict, which is a strong foundation for a relationship.

Quote:
For Mal to be sexually and romantically attracted to a person he has to protect from the cruelty of the 'verse just doesn't jive for me. It immediately gets him Papa Bear mode.

Not necessarily. I think it's a mistaken assumption that Kaylee needs protection. Open does not necessarily equal vulnerable and helpless. She doesn't hesitate at all when it comes to her ship, and I think there's more of that in her.

Quote:
But this she is already doing. Kaylee's presence gentles Mal's harsh side. That's the state of things right now.

He's not changing because of it, though. He's still the "mean old man", he just curbs his tongue around her.

I didn't say he was, only that this thread had potential. Kaylee and Mal isn't as far fetched as one would think.

Remember, that but for one trifling exception, the entire universe is made up of others.- Oliver Wendall Holmes

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Wednesday, February 15, 2006 11:19 AM