Simon Knew in Safe by Dewrastler

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Simon Knew in Safe

POSTED BY: DEWRASTLER
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 1, 2006 14:00
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VIEWED: 4630
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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:01 AM

I've seen a lot of posts on the board about how Simon seemed to know more about River's illness in the BDM than in the series. I hope this hasn't been posted yet, but the most recent time I watched Safe I noticed something. When the village's teacher first accuses River of being a witch, Simon gets all nervous and bumbly. He tries to fain it off that she is just intuitive, but you can tell that he knows more than he does because he starts stuttering. This just goes to show that he always knew more about River than he ever wanted to let anyone know, even the rest of the crew.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:45 AM

GRIZWALD

Well, sure, he knew her from babyhood, probably helped change a diaper or two.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:50 AM

DEWRASTLER

My point is that he knew she was a psychic and he was trying to hide it from everyone else. This is most evident in the BDM, but it is there in the series as well.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:03 AM

RAGUA

There are a lot of clues in the series that Simon knew, if you go back and look at it with that eye. In "Objects in Space," the scene where they're discussing River in the kitchen, it seems that he's either trying to misdirect them or that he's in denial about River's capabilities.

I don't know if it was the intention all along, but Sean Maher played the character as so close-lipped and expressionless that you can interpret his responses as hiding the fact that he always knew a lot more than he let on.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:04 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:
My point is that he knew she was a psychic and he was trying to hide it from everyone else. This is most evident in the BDM, but it is there in the series as well.

You are correct, sir.

I think what more people object to is Simon's apparent personality difference -- from babe-in-the-woods in the series to almost James Bondish heroism in the opening of the BDM. But it seems to me that Simon was always willing to do almost anything to protect River. Furthermore in a high-tech medical facility like River's "academy" he was much more at home than he was aboard Serenity, especially at first.

So between all those factors, I don't have any problems with Simon's behavior in the BDM, and I don't see any major continuity issues either.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:28 AM

BROWNCOATBILLY

Simon spent years of his life and his entire fortune trying to get River out of the academy. As you went deeper and talked to pepole who could get him close it's extreamly likely he began to learn exactly what the academy did and who the others were. It's not hard to find out that kind of information when you pay a janator a couple of thousand dollars.

This is confirmed in the BDM by showing us exactly what Simon knew and how he got her out. Remember that first scene in Serenity is a flashback. He would have come on board with River with that information.

As to why he didn't share it, it was probably to keep River's secret safe. There were some people on board he didn't trust (and shouldn't have *cough Jayne cough*). But even those he did, he couldn't tell, because it's likely he knew that the academy was full of psycics and other experimental people the academy was trying to harness. It's not unlikely they would have mobilized a few psycics and such to track down their star pupil River Tam.

He couldn't tell them all he knew even if he wanted to. If Kaylee had just passed a psycic on the street, it's possible something would have tiped them off about River. The less they know the better.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 6:56 AM

MYCROFTXXX

If I were Simon and just boarded a vessel full of people he didn't know or trust, his first reaction would be to clam up and try to suss things out. During the entire first episode, it was Simon asking all of the probing questions like "what medicine?", "what business is that?", etc. Once he understood the situation he would be even more tight-lipped about the whole assasin part. Afterall, what would Mal, Jayne, or even Zoe do if Simon was to casually say "Oh, by the way, my sister is an unstable psychic assassin capable of taking everyone out on this ship inside of three minutes". Hmmm, tough call...NOT! Can you say "out the airlock, NOW!"

This contrasts very well with Mal's reaction when River was triggered in the BDM. I think he finally realized just how much a victim of the Alliance River really was and his natural instinct was to protect her regardless of the consequences.

To me, one of the best scenes in the movie was Mal picking River's limp body up after the bar scene. You just knew what his next action was going to be (bring her back to the safety of Serenity).

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 7:07 AM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Well the biggest example is Trash and Objects in Space.

Simon believed River immediately when she told him Jayne betrayed them on Ariel without any hesitation even though the sources was her saying she knew he was afraid that they'd find out.

It's obviously a psychic thing and he didn't hesitate. Even if he hadn't known before he knew by that point.

Yet in Objects in Space he denied her being psychic in more or less the same way he had in Safe. Simon was never meant to be an honest person, and it was clear that he was intentionally hiding the truth about River from the crew.

-

As has already been said him knowing isn't what bugs people.

Personally I've never really understood exactly what does bug people. In the opening to Serenity (the movie) he proved that he was a wimp who didn't even want to hurt anyone (a stun thing) and he showed no skill at all. All he did was duck and hit a thing into the ground, easier than firing a gun, and if you've never done it firing a gun is quite easy.

In the episode Serenity Simon was a badass who jumped off a catwalk to tackle an armed man and save his sister.

Obviously there is a personality change there, but it's hardly significant.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:44 PM

MATTCOZ

What bugs me is that Simon didn't rescue River, unless he was lying the whole time.

From the script:

Quote:
ZOE
How did you do it?

SIMON
Money. And luck -- for two years I couldn't get near her, but I was contacted by some men, some underground movement. They said she was in danger, that the government was playing with her brain. If I funded them they could sneak her out in cryo. Get her to Boros and from there, I could take her... wherever.

MAL
How did you know it wasn't a scam?

SIMON
I didn't. Until you opened that box.

I saw the movie before ever seeing the series, so I was rather confused by that scene and expected her to be captured again so he could make the rescue.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:06 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

The script also says that Mal had Wash buy the very compression coil that he never told Wash to buy.

You can't base things on the script you have to base them on what is actually in the show. If you based it on the script the episode Out of Gas could never have happened.

If you decide that Out of Gas does not contradict then by that logic the movie also doesn't contradict.

While the movie broke from the original plan by having Simon personally rescue River it did not contradict the series and if you listen to what Simon says (in the episode) he does not even lie to the crew.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:10 PM

RABIT

Quote:
Originally posted by mattcoz:
What bugs me is that Simon didn't rescue River, unless he was lying the whole time.

Personally, I thought he was lying. As has already been stated, why would he trust these people? He didn't know them and - at the time - didn't really want to. Why tell them what he did?

He could have - off camera - told them the truth, later, or just not thought about it and not told them. Either way, it doesn't really change anything...

But that's just my opinion!

Rabit

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:16 PM

EARLYSUMMER

Quote:
mattcoz wrote:

What bugs me is that Simon didn't rescue River, unless he was lying the whole time.

From the script:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ZOE
How did you do it?

SIMON
Money. And luck -- for two years I couldn't get near her, but I was contacted by some men, some underground movement. They said she was in danger, that the government was playing with her brain. If I funded them they could sneak her out in cryo. Get her to Boros and from there, I could take her... wherever.

MAL
How did you know it wasn't a scam?

SIMON
I didn't. Until you opened that box.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just watched that scene over again and I can't find those last 2 lines anywhere. After Simon's Money and luck speach, it's Inara who says something next:

Inara: "Will she be alright?"
Simon: "I don't know if she'll be alright"

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:21 PM

EARLYSUMMER

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mattcoz:
What bugs me is that Simon didn't rescue River, unless he was lying the whole time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When did he say he didn't rescue River. He said the Mercs snuck her in Cryo to Persephone, but I always thought that was to smuggle her "out of the country" so to speak. He never specifically says how (in detail) he got her out of the lab facility.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:21 PM

MATTCOZ

Well he did say the part about paying the men to sneak her out in cryo and deliver her to.. well actually it was Persephone but that's not really the point. I guess he could be lying, but I don't like that explanation. Paying men to get her out isn't any better than getting her out himself. Why would she even be in cryo if he rescued her like he did in the movie? I just try to ignore that scene and enjoy the rest, which isn't too hard. :)

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:41 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Dewrastler:

My point is that he knew she was a psychic and he was trying to hide it from everyone else. This is most evident in the BDM, but it is there in the series as well.

I'm thinking that he was aware just as Mal and Book made mention of it in Objects in Space. But still, at that point, this was probably just a hunch.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 3:48 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

There's been a whole thread on that question, but ask yourself this:

If he didn't rescue her why would she be in cryo?

I can think of no reason for her to be in cryo that would apply if he didn't get her out and not if he did.

He said that they'd sneak her out in cryo and deliver her to Persphone, and that is what they did. Hardly needs explanation, but if you'd like a probable one try this on: River was a marked fugitive, the box was not.

River was taken off of a core world, its got sensors and where there ain't censors there's Feds. Parading River around would be the same as giving her back.

Only after she was out of the core could she afford to be on her feet. All of this we know from the series, what we saw in the movie hardly changes it.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 4:38 PM

EARLYSUMMER

Quote:

christhecynic wrote:

There's been a whole thread on that question, but ask yourself this:

If he didn't rescue her why would she be in cryo?

I can think of no reason for her to be in cryo that would apply if he didn't get her out and not if he did.

She said that they'd sneak her out in cryo and deliver her to Persphone, and that is what they did. Hardly needs explanation, but if you'd like a probable one try this on: River was a marked fugitive, the box was not.

River was taken off of a core world, its got sensors and where there ain't censors there's Feds. Parading River around would be the same as giving her back.

Only after she was out of the core could she afford to be on her feet. All of this we know from the series, what we saw in the movie hardly changes it.

That's exactly how I see it and kindof the point I was trying to make, you just write it better than I do.

"I am very smart"

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:06 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:

Well the biggest example is Trash and Objects in Space.

Simon believed River immediately when she told him Jayne betrayed them on Ariel without any hesitation even though the sources was her saying she knew he was afraid that they'd find out.

It's obviously a psychic thing and he didn't hesitate. Even if he hadn't known before he knew by that point.

Yet in Objects in Space he denied her being psychic in more or less the same way he had in Safe. Simon was never meant to be an honest person, and it was clear that he was intentionally hiding the truth about River from the crew.

I don't disagree on any particular point.

Except the part where Simon was not meant to be honest. I think we do well to consider that the story line simply more or less demands that the secrets about River, and her full potential, are revealed one at a time; or at least not all at the same time. :) I do not think we can really fault Simon for that. Joss, perhaps. :) But not him either, as I said, because building on a successful story arc really requires us to be in mystery about what River can do in full.

There are only actually two things we know for certain she can do. She can kill with her brain, and break men's hearts. :) In a good way, of course.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 12:41 AM

MATTCOZ

You can try to rationalize it all you want, but it was clearly implied in the series(and especially the original script) that he paid men to get her out and that he didn't do it himself. I'm sure Joss had his reasons for making the change, and it probably made a lot more sense to explain it that way for movie audiences. I really don't have a problem with it, so I'm not going to fool myself into thinking it was that way the whole time.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:03 AM

AUSSAY

Hiya, just new to Firefly and this site so excuse any "n00bness"

I felt in the series that although Simon would have had thoughts about River's psychic talents, I don't think he ever admitted it to himself. HIs intentions seem not only to protect River but try and return her to her normal state and admitting that she now had psyhcic abilities would be not something he would want to deal with

I think he tries to convince himslef that it is just River's brillant mind and she is using intuition.

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Wednesday, March 1, 2006 2:00 PM

KAYNA

I love my captain

I think the original intention was that someone else broke her out but you can get over that hitch without a lot of work.
Simon said that the people who helped him agreed to get her out and into cryo. He never said that he didn't help them. Obviosly they did help to get her out (someone was flying that ship in the BDM) and provided the cryo but it would make sense to send him in. With what was done to her they couldn't know how she would react to someone she didn't know. Simon she not only knows but loves and trusts as well

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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