I know everyone wants a new Firefly series, but... by Seba

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I know everyone wants a new Firefly series, but...

POSTED BY: SEBA
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 17:15
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 12147
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Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:40 AM

...honestly, how good can it be without Book or Wash? The entire character dynamic of the show is now ruined. The #1 reason the show was as fantastic as it was was because of the fascinating characters and the way they played off of one another. It was perfectly balanced, and now that balance is gone. Joss, from the Serenity commentary seems to act as if these decisions were of no consequence, but he has effectively killed the show himself this time, no network interference needed. It’s one thing to kill off a character after we’ve explored the character fully, from all angles after 8 or 9 seasons, but in this instance, we’ve really only just met Wash and Book – all of us – and to kill them at this stage is to suggest that their presence on the ship was meaningless, making the whole “family” theme ridiculous as well. After so many fans fought to have the show resurrected, to kill off two beloved main characters is nothing short of sadism from Mr. Whedon, and a complete slap in the face. He seems to think that the only reason people watch the show is to marvel in his creative brilliance, and anything he does will be applauded and rabidly consumed by his fan base, but in reality, it was the characters that drew people to his show, and actions such as this will surely put a dent in that fanbase. Myself, not being a fan of Mr. Whedon or his pre-Firefly work at all, was certainly not impressed by his decision.

Perhaps Firefly is better off dead and in the hands of caring fans than Mr. Whedon, who, judging by Serenity, has started to loose the original magic.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 10:54 AM

SEBA

Honestly, if he was going to kill someone, it should have been Inara. In the context of the film, it would have really sent Mal over the edge, and Book would have been much more valuable during the fighting and strategizing. Inara was barely in the film as it was, getting a few lines with absolutely no indication that she was even a prostitute to the general viewers, and having her in the final battle seemed more than rediculous to me -- she really did not need to be there. Just a thought.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:11 AM

MURKYMERC

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
Honestly, if he was going to kill someone, it should have been Inara.

Okay, go sit in the corner and repeat out loud, "We do not kill off incredibly hot women" until you are give permission to rejoin the class. But first, could someone please hand me the paddle.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:25 AM

SEBA

Sorry, guess I'm just too fixated on interesting characters instead of breasts.

I'll repeat that I enjoy all the ensemble cast as a whole, but if I had to choose...

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 11:39 AM

EMPXENU

You don't kill off one half of the best onscreen couple ever... without them even being a couple.

----
"I think, therefore I am... I think"

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:11 PM

SEBA

Well we can kill off one half of the other best on-screen couple after only 16 hours of content, I think this would be perfectly feesible.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:13 PM

STORYMARK

Well, some people like things to evolve. Some prefer that they stay stagnant. Can't please everybody....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:20 PM

NDRAGE85

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
and having her in the final battle seemed more than rediculous to me -- she really did not need to be there. Just a thought.

what was she supposed to do? hide on the ship while the Reavers came? Great idea. Of course she had to be there.

and while I have a few issues with the deaths myself, I accept them and I think they are for the better. Shows and stories need to evolve. that can't happen if nothing ever changes. Yes, there is more that could have been told about them, but Joss didn't know if he'd ever get that chance. If they had lived there would be no feeling of consequence, no feeling of change, and no feeling of different future development. And while it took away two beloved characters, Joss created them and made us love them. Whose to say that if the story continues, he won't introduce us to new characters to love that will add a whole new depth to the stories and characters. They can never be replaced, but a lot more can be introduced. It keeps things more 3-dimensional. IMO.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:22 PM

GAMMARAYGIRL

Seems like there is room for a few episodes to happen chronologically before the movie. Just a thought.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:24 PM

TIVO25

The point of the killings were not so much to affect the characters as the audience, which is ultimately the main point of any movie or television series - to affect the audience (and make money, of course).

I remember quite literally thinking after Book died that "okay, he's killed off a character, this should mean that everyone else is safe now." And once Wash was killed, it seemed like everyone was fair game. If he could kill Wash, there wasn't anyone he couldn't kill. First Zoe, then the others all started taking hits. And finally Simon gets hit and he actually gets a "hollywood I'm going to die so I'd better say my goodbyes" scene, which gives River the impetus needed to attack the Reavers.

And I hated it, I was very angry with Wash's death, but it truly made the movie that much better. And yes, I was bitter, but once I came to terms with it, I had to admire the balls needed to take such a risk. To risk completely alienating such a loyal fan base to tell the story HE wanted to tell, took some guts.

And there was no reason to kill Inara. The Operative certainly had none, surely he knew enough of Mal to know that killing her would not have helped him get River back, rather the opposite. It would have been the worst thing he could have done. And having Inara killed by Reavers would have accomplished little other than racking Mal with guilt at letting her get killed. A great avenue to explore, yes, but it does little for the story. At that point, Mal needs to believe with all his heart. Inara's death would've shaken that resolve, to the point where the audience wouldn't find credibility in his determination.

By leaving Inara alive, he kept that story-line open for future episodes/movies, and now we have an incredible story-line for Zoe, who, to be quite honest, seemed to me to have the least dynamic character growth in the series.

Of all the characters, hers seemed to have the least room for growth and change (aside from her desire to have a kid) and this death really gives the character a place to visit emotionally and mentally now. It wouldn't surprise me if killing Wash was what Joss originally intended to do from the very beginning (remember Doyle, Angel fans?).

There's also the possiblity of exploring River's survivor guilt. If they hadn't helped her, Wash and Book would both still be alive (probably).

So I'm not worrying too much. Yes, Wash was fantastic, I loved his character and he provided great humor for the show. But I really think his death opened up a wealth of potential storylines, and am willing to give Joss the benefit of the doubt that if he created this wonderful mix of characters once, he can do it again.

Edit:

Quote:
Originally posted by ndrage85:
Pretty much what I wanted to say, only better.

Curse you and your not-so-long-windedness for saying what I was trying to say in a much faster and more concise manner.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:27 PM

DINKY

He could return to the series and act like the movie was never told and Wash and Book never died...

Nothing really all that wrong with telling a story all that quirky. Or maybe he'll just move the timeline around. OOOORRR maybe he will return like that.

Just as long is River is alive... I'll keep waiting for the next movie/series. :P

But I think the recovery from Book and Wash's deaths would be... Better than we think it would be. Joss seems pretty good at telling a story about characters or.... Emmm... I'm missing a word. He's good at telling the stories WITH the characters instead of... With the characters... Do you know what I mean? Maybe I mean without the characters.

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:49 PM

HOEPERATIVE

I was deeply saddened by the deaths too. In particular, Book seemed to have far too much of a story still left untold. Perhaps we'll see that explored somehow anyway.

I don't think we could have had a movie without one of the main characters dying. That was the main problem with old Star Trek and the like- thousands of episodes of TV, and no-one (save bloody Tasha Yar and a few redshirts) ever died! Eventually you ran out of a sense of danger, of consequence for actions. They even resurrected Spock.

Also, bear in mind that we don't know the actors' intentions here. Maybe Glass and Tudyk WANTED to leave?

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:37 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
Honestly, if he was going to kill someone, it should have been Inara.

I was thinking about that at one stage. Maybe not kill her off during the movie, but she would be a great character death at the end of season 3 or 4, if we ever get there. Maybe Mal's starting to mellow out a bit, and then she gets killed, in front of Mal, by one of his enemies. That would really piss him off for the next season or two (hence great drama).

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:38 PM

SEBA

I'd like to repeat what I said earlier in that I'm not opposed to killing characters in general. The point I made is that he's rendered these character's meaningless to the series given that we've really only just been introduced to them in terms of content and now they're gone. It's the equivalent of him having killed them off 2 episodes after Objects In Space. It's just too soon. We've only just met and are already saying goodbye.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 1:47 PM

SEBA

Quote:
Originally posted by ndrage85:
what was she supposed to do? hide on the ship while the Reavers came? Great idea. Of course she had to be there.

Unless she'd been killed by the Operative beforehand.

Honestly, while I do like Inara's character on the show in general, to be objective, she served little function outside of providing the crew with a shred of legitimacy. Honestly, I think Mal loves his ship more than Inara, so that makes her useless as a love interest, and as the "conscience" of the crew, Book would have worked just as well, making her little more than eye candy.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:01 PM

SEBA

Oh well, I guess I should be thankful for small favors -- at least he hasn't killed kaylee yet.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 2:34 PM

DOG13000

I aint reading through this hole thing, so I'll take a guess nobodies mentioned this yet. (When I searched for "drama" nothing came up)

Joss killed off Book because he just aint needed any more.

He killed Wash for dramatic effect. Might not have been the BEST way to do it, but he did it. Joss wanted to put a scare in our hearts, and take out that sense of "Movie ending! Yay! The crew will kick their asses and live to see another mighty adventure!" He wanted it seem that big, big enough that anyone could die at any time. This was the most important thing in the 'verse, well, ever.

Joss writes real. He writes what would be the probable thing to happen in a situation, not the fake one that everyone wants to see. As he puts it, "Where else are you going to see someone shoot a horse?" If Joss feels it necessary to kill off another protagonist, so be it.

If you REALLY had to see them in the show, Well, for Wash, he could be in Zoe's dreams at night or something like that.

As far as Shepard Book goes, his story could still be un-covered as they travel amidst the 'verse with a sort of flashback sense to it.

I think this could be done with kind of a detective show feel to it (I am thinking of Monk in particular). So, Person A is talking about how they new Book in the past, and whilst doing so, you see the Shepard doing what Person A is saying. If this were the case, a different actor would probably be needed, because of Ron Glass' Age... (and because I think he’s retired now…not sure on that…)

~My THREE cents,
dog

-----
"Someone Ever Tries to Kill You, You Try and Kill Em' Right Back"
-----
Very Shiny: www.fireflystore.spreadshirt.net
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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:02 PM

MURKYMERC

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
Sorry, guess I'm just too fixated on interesting characters instead of breasts.
..

You classify the most perfect woman ever created as just breasts. In my private 'Verse that would be grounds for arrest.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 5:11 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Seba, I see it this way. When I watch Firefly/Serenity I have the feeling that it's real. I've heard other fans say the same thing. Most real feeling show I've ever watched. It has an authentic reality to it.

In real life when folks are in dangerous situations, there are tragedies. It is how life is. That IS reality.

I believe that Joss chose to carry forward with the real feeling we all love about Firefly. If there are consequences in real life, there are consequences in the 'verse.

I found it devastating and masterful. I'll never forget my experience seeing Serenity. It's marked on the line of my life like real life events have marked me.

I love Joss for that. I love our actors for giving me that experience. I'm grateful for it.

" You hold. Hold til I get back." Mal

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 8:36 PM

NOSADSEVEN

Joss created characters that are so real, their absence will have as much of an impact on the crew as their presence. Wash, especially, has left a big gaping hole in the crew - and I personally look foward to seeing how they cope, how their relationships change, and what the losses mean for them in the long run. When we get more I guarantee it is not going to be Firefly minus two. (Joss has said as much, anyway.) It is changed not just for us, but for them, and frankly, that only provides us more insight into the characters.

Also try to remember, Joss didn't cancel Firefly in order to make Serenity. When FOX pulled the plug, all of the characters were killed after we only just met them. At the time, there was no future. Joss killed himself to get more of this story - more of these characters - out. He has said that the deaths were not his original plan for the TV show, and weren't due to actors wanting out. They were demanded by the movie itself (Joss discusses some of this evolution in the Visual Companion), and his commitment to the integrity of the movie's story is exactly why his work is so powerful. Don't be mad at him for trying to bring the best movie to us he could, instead of holding back with the hopes that he might be able to carry on where Firefly so abruptly left off. That is a fantasy. He recognized it, and moved us and the crew foward.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

I too was upset that Book and Wash were killed in the movie. Unlike many, though, I feel that Book's death was the larger tragedy, at least in terms of where it might (or might not, in this case) take any future stories of our beloved crew. Of the two killed off, and maybe even among the entire crew, Book's character had by far the most intriguin backstory that needed to be told. And STILL needs to be told.

Wash was great, no doubt about it. His wit and general demeanor will be sorely missed. But I trust Joss to give us new characters that we'll care just as much about, given time (and a new series or more movie sequels).

Also, as has been noted, in life, we don't get to choose who dies, or when. It might seem cruel to have just met someone who seems to be in perfect harmony with you and your world, and then to just as suddenly lose them, but in real life, that does happen. Joss isn't exactly known for pulling his punches as regards character deaths. If you were a fan of his earlier shows (Buffy or Angel), you'd have known already that Joss has a knack for killing off key characters often, and almost as often bringing in new characters that you'll grow to love just as much.

Have a little faith. When (not if) the rest of our crew fly again, I have no doubt we'll find ourselves caring for them as much as we always did. Old friends who are gone may be missed, but there will be good times ahead for those of us still here. And as long as we remember them, they're never really gone.

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:11 PM

SHO

Book and Wash were ancillary characters. I liked them both, Wash especially. He gave voice to the moral counterpoint to Mal's suggested actions, even though we knew Mal wouldn't actually do some of them. And Book's history is an interesting plot that WILL be thoroughly explored, imo. As others have said here, I was shocked and dismayed with Wash's death, and still might have done something somewhat differently. But, Joss accomplised exactly what he said he needed to do at that point in the movie, scared us all. More of them could die, there were no holds barred after that.

As for a new series, I have to believe with all my heart that a new series is coming and coming soon. And, I believe that the losses of Wash and Book are going to be important and powerful parts of the continuing story that is Firefly.

"We've done the impossible. That makes us mighty"

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:03 AM

SEBA

Honestly, I'll forgive Joss for the deaths if he brings back Greg Edmonson. The music was the real 11th character on the show. It was sorely missing from Serenity.

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:18 AM

AUSSAY

Books death was sad, but although I think Joss wasn't counting on a new series to be made. Therefore the long telling of Book's past became something that would be impossible to do in movies.

So without that left to explore, Books chracter is simply a spiritual presence, and thats something that is not really required for movies as it is in a weekly series, and also Inara serves as a sort of spiritual person (in a way) so when looking to creat some drama by killing character (its Joss Whedon so you knew it had to happen) Book, in a movie sense no longer seemed as neccessary.

Now Wash was upsetting. A great funny character killed, but hey it certainly added drama, especially for the fans. It also opens up some doors for Zoe. She might start showing some more anger and emotion in future movies or series

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Sunday, February 26, 2006 2:23 PM

KAELE

Actually, knowing what a storyteller Joss is, I'm sure he'll find a more than plausible way to have the characters deal with the loss of Book and Wash.

We were already separated from Book, seeing as how he left the crew to be on Haven. There was a disconnect there that is embodied by his absence on the ship, he's no longer an 'active' part of the crew. So his death held a little less meaning to us than Wash. We all guess at his military backround, and implied with that is the risk of death that he knowingly took. The character knew it and we all knew it.

Wash, on the other hand, we all knew was vulnerable from War Stories. He couldn't take the punishment from Niska, was never really off the ship in dangerous situations, and had no interest in fighting. He was the light banter, the likable buddy and the goof. Unfortunately, the BEST character to die. To kill off someone so vulnerable makes us empathize with the crew, feeling that desperation.

Go through the rest of the crew:
Mal, Jayne and Zoe had histories of violence. River we all knew was some sort of killing machine, Simon and Kaylee are a possibility but they are the ONLY developed love story in the entire movie. Inara is Mal's love interest and unless Joss wanted to do the Capt. Kirk love interest on every planet, she wouldn't go. Wash was the logical choice as dictated by the path of the story.

The deaths of Book and Wash will also affect whatever comes next in a good way. We all love unpredictable Jayne, steadfast Mal, crazy River, cheery Kaylee, stiff Simon.

Zoe had very little depth to her character other than being Mal's first mate. She now has a trajedy we all witnessed: Zoe's Serenity Valley.

Mal now has a crisis of conscience in that he's finally found something to believe in despite Book not being there. Book will embody that alive or dead.

I'm not a big fan of Inara either. I don't see the point of her being there and could stand quite a bit more sexual tension than what's been shown. So far I consider her and Mal's relationship a bit too vanilla and wish it to be even more frustrating. There's depth there that hasn't been plumbed...

Just my few credits' worth.

Kaele
AIM - Dewlanna
YID - jedi_kaele

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Monday, February 27, 2006 5:15 AM

BINGKEWL

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
Honestly, if he was going to kill someone, it should have been Inara.

agreed... she had few showings and wasn't an important person. It would have been cool to learn about Shepheards pasted and all.

----------------
"Either he’s dead, or my watch has stopped"

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Monday, February 27, 2006 5:49 AM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by Murkymerc:
Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
Honestly, if he was going to kill someone, it should have been Inara.

Okay, go sit in the corner and repeat out loud, "We do not kill off incredibly hot women" until you are give permission to rejoin the class. But first, could someone please hand me the paddle.

What if that "incredibly hot woman" was completely evil? You mean to tell me that if a woman is "hot" then that is the deciding factor if she is allowed to live or die? What if Inara was a fat, greasy looking cow...would it be easier for you to write her off you pebble-brained vermin?

River

They could expand your brains 10 fold, and it would STILL rattle around inside the azz of a mosquito.

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Monday, February 27, 2006 6:01 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Seba:
Honestly, while I do like Inara's character on the show in general, to be objective, she served little function outside of providing the crew with a shred of legitimacy. Honestly, I think Mal loves his ship more than Inara, so that makes her useless as a love interest, and as the "conscience" of the crew, Book would have worked just as well, making her little more than eye candy.

If that logic was to be followed than Wash was a logical choice for a character death as he only flew the ship and was comedy relief when he was onscreen.

I hated to see Wash die too, trust me those that went with me can tell you how crushed I was to see him die. We have to remember that this is Joss' 'Verse & they are his characters. If one of them dies there are going to be some upset fans. None of us wanted to see any of them die, but Joss thought it best for the story as a whole to have Wash & Book die.

If ever the series returned to television it could be done without Wash & Book. It may not have the same "magic" as it did in the first season, but knowing Joss he would come up with something to make the show just as special as it was in the beginning.

You've got to have faith. Joss killed off characters in his other shows & they went on. Shock and outrage over the death of a great character is expected, but like in real life those that survive have to pick up the pieces and move on. Just like the crew we will move on.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Monday, February 27, 2006 8:23 AM

ENGINEANGEL

grrr!!! *hits her head up against the wall* :bump: lol, okay, i'm saying this yet again, wash is coming back, you got me? joss has said it in a roundabout way, at a recent con has hinted at it, and he also said it to a person registered on here as Tracy in person. I don't know about Book coming back, but i do know that Joss promised Ron that his secret would be told.

Quote:
Maybe Glass and Tudyk WANTED to leave

i don't think that this is true, i don't know about alan, (maybe he wanted to but i highly doubt it) but i do know for a fact that ron glass did not want to leave.

Quote:
Joss killed off Book because he just aint needed any more.

i don't think this was not the reason, or at least not the main one. Book was killed off because Joss needed to spur Mal into action. Book's last words were telling Mal to believe in something, anything. Mal wasn't going to go to Miranda before Book's death, wasn't going to believe in the cause, he didn't think that it was worth it, but that made him believe in it wholeheartedly. He has a total mind and mood change all because of Book's death.

Now, Wash can come back in a non-cheesy way. Hell, he could even not be dead! it is possible. if you look closely at the reaver spike that impaled him, it's not that big, and it goes through his stomach, not his chest. There are people who think that maybe the allience found him, saved him, and took him prisoner for info on serenity as they were still being chased. my fav thing is that wash will be a ghost that only river can see (if you've seen joss do things like this before you KNOW it wouldn't be cheesy) i definately would not want anything cheesy, as i'm sure no one else would either.

There are tons of responses coming from both sides and ideas on how to bring wash back if possible at this thread: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13372 check it out.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

But the dinosaurs are silent, the Hawaiian shirts are packed away, and Zoe sleeps alone. Requiescat in peace, old friend. You will be missed. Had my say, done my dance. The rest is dust and ashes.

Wash, you were the best Gorram pilot in the verse. Rest In Peace(and then come back!!!)

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Monday, February 27, 2006 9:59 AM

CERIL

i think the deaths are ok, you can go back to a tv show w/ those charecters. just when the series is fininshed set it up by having book leave and form his lil colony and have Inara leave again. There was never any timeline established from the series to the movie was there?? I look at the 2 as seperate storeis anyhow. Kind of like star trek had movies and was a show on tv.

That's why I never kiss 'em on the mouth

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Monday, February 27, 2006 10:32 AM

AZTECHROME

Neh.

The return of sci-fi characters for extremely shoddy reasons is a staple of the genre.

You can always clone/evil twin/higher being them back into existence, as long as someone's paying the bill.

I think Joss did it on purpose. It would seem that he believes that Serenity is the final sign out on the Firefly universe.

Only thing I don't understand is why he allowed Serenity to be rebuilt in the closing shots. You kind of have to go one way or the other. Mal should be moved into a new life or something. He's not just going to be a "low-profile" smuggler after the movie's events.

In my opinion,it's the rebuilding of Serenity that's a weak point, not the death of main characters.

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Monday, February 27, 2006 2:41 PM

MURKYMERC

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

What if that "incredibly hot woman" was completely evil? You mean to tell me that if a woman is "hot" then that is the deciding factor if she is allowed to live or die? What if Inara was a fat, greasy looking cow...would it be easier for you to write her off you pebble-brained vermin?

River

They could shrink your brains down 10 fold, and it would STILL rattle around inside the azz of a mosquito.

Okay, apparently you lack the intellectual capacity to see my playful light hearted comments for what they were and chose to get nasty. Please allow me to respond. Whether she should live or die really depends on the direction of the story in theory. However since television is business, it really comes down to whether the character is compelling or not and can hold the viewers attention. Yes..evil and hot is good for business, remember Saffron, idiot? Yes, hot women do bring men to shows. Do you think it is just a coincidence that every woman on that show is way above average in looks? It's not the world I created, but it is reality, so keep your illusions of men who only care about inner beauty while you endure another dateless night.

Joss sacrificed two great characters for the sake of the movie. I actually saw the movie before the series so it didn't really impact me until after I bought the DVD set. Now, I respect his direction, though I don't like it. Inara is a good character. Some of the best scenes are her playful dialogue with Mal. If she were a "fat greasy looking cow", those scenes would not work, whether you want to believe that or not. (I need to wrap this up, because this is probably now stretching the limits of your short term memory)

Your "fat greasy looking cow" comment must hit pretty close to home for you to get so defensive. Put down the donuts down, buy a treadmill, and lighten up.

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Monday, February 27, 2006 3:49 PM

BARNABY36

Well, I agree with that. Edmonson is mighty, and while Newman was good, he wasn't Edmonson-Good (TM).

But back to the point. What I think everyone is missing about Seba's point is that we didn't get enough time to explore and know the now deceased character's, and so their deaths are meaningless.

I disagree. The fact that you wish to pin the death on someone else proves that you care about these characters. As a person who saw Serenity before Firefly, I have to say that both deaths hit me hard, Wash's harder than Book's. It didn't take me episodes of story to make me love his character. Now that I have that background, I'm hit harder by his abrupt and cruel death (which was a death, by the way, hence the grave).

Inara has a hidden past, too, mind you. I find her's more interesting than Book's, which is saying plenty. The fact that her role in the movie is not as key as Wash's hardly makes her a good candidate for death; it would make her death less significant to the audience, which, if I read what you're saying properly, is hardly to be desired.

If we get a trilogy (or WHEN!), Book's past is next to explore, then Inara's. I can almost swear by it. The fact that the "balance" has been disrupted makes us as an audience angry, yes, but curious to see how it will right itself again, as all balances do.

In sad news, though, Simon or Kaylee are next to die. I can feel it.

Ben

EDIT: And will everyone please lay off the flaming? We're trying to have an intelligent discussion here, one that is very valid. Don't go insulting serious participants, even those who put in lighthearted or sarcastic comments.

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Monday, February 27, 2006 7:41 PM

ALGUS

Flint Fireforge died in the first book of the Dragonlance Chronicles, Sturm Brightblade in the second. Despite this, they are among the most popular characters in the Dragonlance book series. Now granted since then there have been dozens of books detailing their lives prior to the Dragonlance Chronicles, but at the time...

Anyway, the fact that you even CARE that they are dead proves that Whedon did his job and if you know anything of Whedon's other work you know he enjoys killing characters off. And it does make his work more real, but it also makes you treasure the time you get to have with those characters all the more. Think about Boromir from Lord of the Rings, think about what kind of impact he had on the series and how short a time relatively speaking he was in the novels. I've never had a problem with death. Sure, if the series is ever continued I'll miss Wash and Book, but I'm also reminded that they were important enough that I was touched when they died and that is great story telling.

---
Where's the KABOOM?! There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom! *sigh* Delays...delays...

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Monday, February 27, 2006 9:03 PM

KWICKO

Quote:
There are people who think that maybe the allience found him, saved him, and took him prisoner for info on serenity as they were still being chased.

Think we'd've heard a little somethin' from Zoe or Mal, had that been the case. The way I see it, Wash is dead. Gone. A *former* pilot. If he were alive, even a *little* alive, Mal and Zoe wouldn't have left him there. No way, no how. Not for the Reavers. If they couldn't save him or move him, Mal would have shot him just so the Reavers wouldn't get him. And if he's dead, the Reavers don't want him, have no use for him. No fun eatin' 'em if they ain't kickin', do ma?

And if Mal & Zoe had left Wash there as he was (impaled and creepifyin'), and he hadn't been there when they got back, you think they'd have mentioned a li'l something about it while they were talking about the ship's rebuilding and all. Maybe just a little mention, something along the lines of "Don't worry; we'll find him." Or "I'll kill every Reaver in the 'verse for what they did to him." Or "Your Mister seems kind of up-and-about for a dead guy. Any ideas where he toddled off to?"

So, to me, Wash is well and truly dead. He'll be missed, and the 'verse will seem emptier for his loss, but he's gone. Don't mean Joss won't find a way to have him in any future installments, but they'll be either flashbacks or visions (hauntings, if you will), near as I can conjure. And I'd rather have it that way than a clone, evil twin, identical cousin, Gilligan-doppelganger, or anything stupid like what's already been done to death in a thousand other shows.

I've lost friends - close friends, BEST friends - and so far, none of them have ever come back. (Well, that one guy, but he was kinda weird to begin with, and he only did it the once... ;) ) Anyway, that ain't how the 'verse works. In this 'verse, you die, you stay gone.

Mike

"I think we should call it YOUR GRAVE!!"

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Monday, February 27, 2006 9:21 PM

RIVER6213

Quote:
Originally posted by Murkymerc:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

What if that "incredibly hot woman" was completely evil? You mean to tell me that if a woman is "hot" then that is the deciding factor if she is allowed to live or die? What if Inara was a fat, greasy looking cow...would it be easier for you to write her off you pebble-brained vermin?

River

They could shrink your brains down 10 fold, and it would STILL rattle around inside the azz of a mosquito.

Okay, apparently you lack the intellectual capacity to see my playful light hearted comments for what they were and chose to get nasty. Please allow me to respond. Whether she should live or die really depends on the direction of the story in theory. However since television is business, it really comes down to whether the character is compelling or not and can hold the viewers attention. Yes..evil and hot is good for business, remember Saffron, idiot? Yes, hot women do bring men to shows. Do you think it is just a coincidence that every woman on that show is way above average in looks? It's not the world I created, but it is reality, so keep your illusions of men who only care about inner beauty while you endure another dateless night.

Joss sacrificed two great characters for the sake of the movie. I actually saw the movie before the series so it didn't really impact me until after I bought the DVD set. Now, I respect his direction, though I don't like it. Inara is a good character. Some of the best scenes are her playful dialogue with Mal. If she were a "fat greasy looking cow", those scenes would not work, whether you want to believe that or not. (I need to wrap this up, because this is probably now stretching the limits of your short term memory)

Your "fat greasy looking cow" comment must hit pretty close to home for you to get so defensive. Put down the donuts down, buy a treadmill, and lighten up.

Not really. A fat greasy cow is something I am not, but it seems that that comment regarding fat greasy cows got your limited attention. There are websites for that sort of thing if you are into it, and I suspect you are.
Your post just shows what a knuckle-dragging idiot you really are. Look, I'll give you a tip...its called fire and you can use it for a great many things. Next I show you what a wheel can do for you...it might change your life, or in your case it might not because you are to stupid to get it.

River

You are way to stupid to live

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Monday, February 27, 2006 9:31 PM

CANTONMUDDER

You tell 'em River!

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:15 AM

ZOID

Seba wrote:

Quote:
I'd like to repeat what I said earlier in that I'm not opposed to killing characters in general. The point I made is that he's rendered these character's meaningless to the series given that we've really only just been introduced to them in terms of content and now they're gone. It's the equivalent of him having killed them off 2 episodes after Objects In Space. It's just too soon. We've only just met and are already saying goodbye.

I agree!!!

It seems unconscionable that the author should be so out of touch with his audience as to kill off the witty one; the one who best represents the real-life, everyday values of his audience; the one cast member who represents the voice of reason in this work of drama.

To have thus killed off Mercutio, before we ever even really had a chance to know him...

Oops! Wrong website! I was looking for shakespeare_is_a_hack(dot)com...

Cluelessly,

zoid

P.S.
Killing off the 'wrong' characters was a stroke of genius. Killing the 'right' story-fodder characters is both mundane and commonplace. Killing his best characters makes one ask, "Why in the name of God did (insert character name) have to die?", in much the same way we ask why beautiful, intelligent and loving people die young in our real lives. It makes the story true-to-life, meaning 'unpredictable'. And aren't we always complaining how predictable Hollywood has become? Well, you can't have your cake and eat it, too...
-zed
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:14 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Seba wrote:
Quote:
I'd like to repeat what I said earlier in that I'm not opposed to killing characters in general. The point I made is that he's rendered these character's meaningless to the series given that we've really only just been introduced to them in terms of content and now they're gone. It's the equivalent of him having killed them off 2 episodes after Objects In Space. It's just too soon. We've only just met and are already saying goodbye.

I agree!!!

It seems unconscionable that the author should be so out of touch with his audience as to kill off the witty one; the one who best represents the real-life, everyday values of his audience; the one cast member who represents the voice of reason in this work of drama.

To have thus killed off Mercutio, before we ever even really had a chance to know him...

Oops! Wrong website! I was looking for shakespeare_is_a_hack(dot)com...

Cluelessly,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

That's a valid set of points you two. As someone who didn't mind the killing of those two key characters you have made me rethink the idea of why Joss did so.

I guess you don't need to hear another interpretation and in doing so, a defence of Joss and his decision, but I think from my personal point of view those final twenty minutes would not have had quite the same impact upon me if I weren't sitting there watching the screen in fear that Kaylee may go next or Zoe, or Inara or even Jayne!! The fact that Wash in particular was killed off kind of amplified the danger the characters where in and that thereby aided to the tension needed for the final 20 mins.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:26 AM

VERASNEWOWNER

Wash and Books deaths hit me, of course they did, i love these characters. Ive lost really close friends, two before christmas within 24 hours of each other and that was really crappy, not bad luck, just life being crappy.

Thats how it goes, life hits you in the face once in a while, and all you can do is swear and rub your cheek better and get on with it.

Now, i have read a few interviews in magazines with Whedon where he has said that Serenity and Firefly are not/maybe not one of the same, being that Serenity was either an abrieviated version of Fireflys intended series run or that Serenity is a stand alone movie project that has nothing in common with the series. In other words, what happened in the movie doesnt necarserilly translate onto the series. He had said that Wash and Book could return in a sequal or series.

Books death was a shock, mainly because i wanted to see more of his back story, his military/operative/agent type thing he couldve been doing before disapearing into obscurity and joing the crew of Serenity, or maybe, in a twist, he couldve been assigned to follow Simon and River and went deep under cover. I dont know, i can only speculate and hope and dream fan-boyish dreams.

Washs death was also a huge shock in that it was so sudden and unexpected, ifelt like standing up in the theatre and shouting, "What the f**k was that about...". But i agree with Tudyks view in the official movie magazine "I always thought it would be a good idea to kill Wash, maybe in the second or early third season. I pitched this to Joss and he was up for it, it was shock value. its not like "Go, ill hold the fort for you and fight them all off" its rather, 'I land the ship, i quip, and im dead.' It was his idea, and it certainly worked for me because i was gripping my girlfriends hand all through the movie, now thats FANTASTIC story telling, and thats what movies are about.

As the end drew closer i was certain this was Whedons bow out, Serenity was destroyed, Book and was were dead, mal was fighting a losing battle and, one by one, they all started getting hits. I was certain he was killing everyone off and saying goodbye to one of the best sci-fi creations of all time. But thankfully that didnt happen.

The two deaths are similar to that of the Star Trek movie series, in ST:II they killed Spock, it was Nimoys idea, then all the fans hit back, campaigned for god knows how long and got a WHOLE third movie devoted to finding Spock, and Nimoy directed, executively produced and helped script.

You never know what could happen.

Yeah, i dont like the fact that two great characters were killed off for no reason, but im living with it, its done. Afterall theyre characters, and if ive learnt anything in books etc, characters are alive, theyre never dead.

I like to think that Joss knows EXACTLY what hes doing with the Firefly/Serenity thing. By that i mean that he has this master plan for everything. Maybe im wrong i dont know.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 2:32 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Not really. A fat greasy cow is something I am not, but it seems that that comment regarding fat greasy cows got your limited attention. There are websites for that sort of thing if you are into it, and I suspect you are.
Your post just shows what a knuckle-dragging idiot you really are. Look, I'll give you a tip...its called fire and you can use it for a great many things. Next I show you what a wheel can do for you...it might change your life, or in your case it might not because you are to stupid to get it.

Ha! :)

I was anxiously awaiting how you would handle yourself here; obviously, quite, quite well. :) You rock!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 4:40 AM

HIXIE129

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Not really. A fat greasy cow is something I am not, but it seems that that comment regarding fat greasy cows got your limited attention. There are websites for that sort of thing if you are into it, and I suspect you are.
Your post just shows what a knuckle-dragging idiot you really are. Look, I'll give you a tip...its called fire and you can use it for a great many things. Next I show you what a wheel can do for you...it might change your life, or in your case it might not because you are to stupid to get it.

River is like fine gold, a rare jewel. She is precious. I just want to hold her in my arms.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:19 AM

OBSESSEDWITHFIREFLY

I am by no means happy about the fates of Book and Wash, but this does not mean that the story could not continue in a compelling and satisfying manner. It would be interesting to see how Zoe copes with her loss. Furthermore, adding a new character or two could provide many new twists and enable the other characters to be explored in different ways. I would have liked to learn more about the secrets of Book's past, but there still are ways of exploring those possibilities. (i.e. flashbacks, finding his "diary", meeting old friends of Book, etc.) Hey, sounds like a good episode! I would look forward to any new show.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:13 AM

ZORPRIME01

Quote:
Originally posted by ceril:
i think the deaths are ok, you can go back to a tv show w/ those charecters. just when the series is fininshed set it up by having book leave and form his lil colony and have Inara leave again. There was never any timeline established from the series to the movie was there?? I look at the 2 as seperate storeis anyhow.

I too was extremely upset by Wash's death, but as was said, both Wash and Book served a purpose in the movie. Book's death helped spur Mal into action, and Wash's death gave us the hightened tension that any/all of the crew could very well be killed.

As far as the timeline goes, I believe it is mentioned early in the movie that Simon and River were aboard the ship for approximately nine months.

Also, there was a three-issue comic book mini-series written by Joss Whedon that chronicled the period between the t.v. show and movie.

Personally, while they are separate and have a slightly different feel, I thought of 'Serenity' more as the end of the first season of the series, which we never got. It is clear that the movie was made not knowing whether there would be another.

I aim to misbehave.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:15 AM

SAZMAN

Remember that Joss has a history of killing characters in Buffy (Tara, Anya, Buffy's mom, Jenny Calendar), and Angel (all of the Wolfram and Hart villains, Doyle, eventually all of the mortals - Fred, Wesley, Gunn), and introducing new characters to the core group.

If Firefly were still on air, it's possible that Book or Wash would have died anyway by now, and a new crew member or two would have come on board.

It's just one of the ways he likes to let his stories unfold. He has already said that the plot of Serenity was basically season two of Firefly compacted into a two-hour movie, so he may well have decided to kill both of them in the series as well.

*********************************************

Start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90 pound girl. 'Cause I don't think that's ever getting old.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:35 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by sazman:
Remember that Joss has a history of killing characters in Buffy (Tara, Anya, Buffy's mom, Jenny Calendar), and Angel (all of the Wolfram and Hart villains, Doyle, eventually all of the mortals - Fred, Wesley, Gunn)...

Actually, much to my surprise, Gunn seems to have lived. There's a new Angel comic mini-series that started about a month ago, in which Gun (now missing an eye) seeks out Angel in (I think) Eastern Europe (where the previouse post-series Angel comic was set).

I imagine some people don't count the comics as cannon, but since I believe Joss has story approval on all the comics - and since we're not likely to get any more filmed Angel adventures for a long time (if ever), it would seem that Charles somehow survived the nasty dust-up we didn't get to see in the final episode.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:04 AM

SAZMAN

That is interesting, since shortly after the final episode, Joss announced at a convention that Gunn was dead, too, that the survivors of the big, unseen battle were Angel, Spike, and Illyria, all super-powered immortals.

He must have changed his mind, which is his perogative, of course.

*********************************************

Start with the part where Jayne gets knocked out by a 90 pound girl. 'Cause I don't think that's ever getting old.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:03 AM

WHISKEYJAKE

Quote:
Originally posted by obsessedwithfirefly:
I am by no means happy about the fates of Book and Wash, but this does not mean that the story could not continue in a compelling and satisfying manner. It would be interesting to see how Zoe copes with her loss. Furthermore, adding a new character or two could provide many new twists and enable the other characters to be explored in different ways. I would have liked to learn more about the secrets of Book's past, but there still are ways of exploring those possibilities. (i.e. flashbacks, finding his "diary", meeting old friends of Book, etc.) Hey, sounds like a good episode! I would look forward to any new show.

Ah, so someone else has the opinion I do. The loss of Book and Wash was shocking but it has so much potetial to bring out more in the surviving characters. I could maybe see the addition of one new character to the crew. It's one that could bring in a whole new perspective. Add Safron to the on going cast. I'm sure Joss could think of a way to make that work and just think of the fun that could bring in. The tension between her and Inarra could bring in a new depth to the Inarra character.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 12:51 PM

JOCKOCKEYOCK

I THINK YOU ARE considerably
OVER EXADURATING!!
THINK OVER IT A Minute...
To kill off Alin and to
Eliminate Ron's characters, was indeed impacting.
It was almost a necessity to the movie, the last strive of those remaining a push to complete the task ahead the basics of all hero stories.
But that he killed off Wash and Book means nothing but an interesting memory. Remember that Mal strives to live forward while remaining in the state of war unable to let go of his loss at Serenity.
I think that Joss can make this tragedy work if he were to some how, with divine intermissions from gods, continue, Firefly.
I also think due to the movie being about mainly River’s story that she could fill in the character gap of two people because of the new insight of her perspective… though it was really in my opinion Serenity’s perspective.
Or he could elaborate on adding new crew.
I too was not a fan of Joss before I watched Serenity and Firefly…
I grieve in the most utter bereaved state of mind for the loss of Firefly. So I would not really care about the differences as long as the story is finished or continued or is laid to rest in a more peaceful state of being. The movie it self intrigued many people so how could some one torture their fans so much as to not finish what had began.

River: Won't stop. Won't ever stop. They'll just keep coming until they get back what you took.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2006 1:13 PM

OBSESSEDWITHFIREFLY

Sounds good. Who's gonna tell Joss?

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