The Alliance is a good thing by CTHawk

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Alliance is a good thing

POSTED BY: CTHAWK
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 1, 2006 13:38
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2878
PAGE 1 of 1

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 7:17 AM

I think one of the shortcomings of the series (possibly only because it was so short and didn't have time) was that the Alliance was portrayed so negatively.
I think one of the most interesting contradictions is that the Alliance probably was almost entirely benevolent and good for the majority of people. But in order to remain so, it did terrible things.
In the series and especially the movie we only see the Alliance as a negative and corrupt, but I think it would have added depth and reality to make it more gray. (I imagine we would have seen this with more time.)
Let me know what you think.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 7:27 AM

GRIZWALD

Perhaps you are right, or perhaps because these stories are told from the perspective of the Serenity crew, we would never have seen this. No matter how benevolent the Alliance is or could be, Mal sees it through blood-colored glasses.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 7:48 AM

STAKETHELURK

Joss certainly seems to view the Alliance as something of a gray institution; like the Operative says, “The Alliance is not some evil empire.” It’s just hard to get that across to someone like Mal, who is so deadest against it. Additionally, it somewhat easier to tell stories about the failings of a government (when put it in a very negative light) than on its successes. But I think Joss tries to weave in the more gray aspects of the Alliance into the background of the series and into some of the characters we see working for it. And you’re probably right that as the series went on we might’ve seen a much nicer side of it (and we might’ve found out that the Independents weren’t exactly paragons of virtue).

One thing in particular Joss has said about the Alliance always struck me. I’ve been trying to track down the specific quote, it was during one of those series of interviews, I think hyping the US DVD release. The interviewer was asking about the future of the ‘verse, and whether the Alliance would collapse due to Mal’s broadcast or a second civil war. Joss said that the Alliance collapsing would be “a disaster.” He really does seem to believe that the Alliance plays an important and often benevolent role in the ‘verse.

I don’t know if I would say the Alliance is good, but it isn’t evil. And that's what makes it so interesting.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 7:52 AM

ALGUS

I always saw the Alliance as sort of World of Darkness-esque, for those unfamiliar with White Wolf's role-playing game, the basic premise of the World of Darkness is that things are pretty much the same as real life, but all the violent and nasty things are relatively true. So, the Alliance is essentially good and benevolent (remember Inara, "I was in favor of unification") but all the dark little stories that tend to be whispered about secret Government experiments, fraud, corruption, those are all probably true. We know they're into their share of bad things, but they were trying to improve people after all. Well, maybe not improved in a manner we'd like, I've certainly got my sympathies with Mal and not the Operative in Serenity.

---
Where's the KABOOM?! There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom! *sigh* Delays...delays...

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 8:30 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

Why go so far as to compare it to fantasey? I think all corrupt government plots in any story ever written have been based off of the inner knowledge of all humans that any form of government is untrustworthy to varying degrees. Just as all of you said, that doesn't make it "bad" by deffinition, but it's not good either.

I think we all need to start facing some facts that the MAN would try to get you to believe otherwise.

1)Jesus was black
2)Ronald Regan was the devil
3)The government is lying to you about 9/11

Thank you and goodnight!

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 8:43 AM

NUCLEARDAY

Likely might have been nice to see the Alliance more often portrayed in a "good" light. Though on the other hand, it's also quite clear that we're not dealing with another "Evil Empire" either. I could go on and on (and often do... :)

I'll just say it likely would have been disastrous for the Alliance to fall apart. I think even Mal would agree with that. I don't think the Browncoats were anti-alliance so much as they were anti-unification (much like the Civil War.) It was more about the choice to be left alone than anything?

But I digress... at least there's the unfilmed script for the Dead or Alive episode, where you see ex-'coats portrayed as the evil terrorists.

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 9:02 AM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?

I think it was all summed up by the "Cry Baby" scene in the (original) Serenity.

Mal and Co. take advantage of the Alliance's benevolence. The commander says "Our gunships would never get back to us in time. Let's go help these people."

These people = the signal from the cry baby indicating that is was a "stranded transport full of people"

The Alliance helps when and where it can, kinda like the U.S., but it also has it's dirty secrets ("It was for the best, to make people safer.") like the U.S.

Additionally, I believe the whole reason for the Independent uprising was that the Alliance WAS NOT big enough to control all the planets and moons, and really didn't care what the border worlds were doing until the Border Worlds decided they wanted out. In an effort to keep planets closer to the core from getting the same idea, they tried to crush the rebellion before it began (a preemptive move) and that proved folly as the Independent movement used it as a "Look look! See the violence inherent in the system! Help help! We're bein' repressed!" and it only fueled the cause. I reckon Shadow is where it began, and where the Alliance tried to end it, hence why Mal is so hell-bent on getting over on the Alliance any way he can.

They're far better good, than they are bad, but like every government, there is both sides to them. No government will ever be successful for very long if they try to be totalitarian OR utopian. There has to be concessions to both.

All that being said, I say gut the Purplebellies! Browncoats will rise again! AHHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!

BWAH!
TCM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
*Avail yourself of my trade!
Original Firefly T-shirts, posters, mugs and more at:
http://www.cafepress.com/10thcrew
*Download my Firefly Games for FREE at
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=13&t=12622
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In or near Ohio? Join us!
http://p097.ezboard.com/bohiofireflyfans
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/firefly-ohio

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 9:20 AM

SINGATE

Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:
1)Jesus was black
2)Ronald Regan was the devil
3)The government is lying to you about 9/11

Good to see another Boondocks fan around here. Easily one of the best shows on TV.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 9:26 AM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
Additionally, I believe the whole reason for the Independent uprising was that the Alliance WAS NOT big enough to control all the planets and moons, and really didn't care what the border worlds were doing until the Border Worlds decided they wanted out.

Out of what? US Civil War parallels aside, the Unification War was just that--a war to unite the planets that were not yet under Alliance control. It wasn't a rebellion, it was a war of expansion on the part of the Alliance. Justified, perhaps, because the Alliance felt it could solve the "barbarism" of the Outer Planets. Your notion of a preemptive attack to avert a rebellion, while intriguing (and I definitely agree that Shadow was a key point in the war), doesn't jive with the information we've been given.

And I think another round of Purplebellies vs. Browncoats would be disastrous. At this point, however, I do think betrayed idealists within the Alliance (like the Op) could initiate and intra-Alliance war against the shadowy hardliners who've been betraying the Alliance's ideals. That would probably solve many of the problems that have been plaguing the Alliance's approach to things.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 10:03 AM

CITIZEN

"Mal's politics are very reactionary and 'Big government is bad' and 'Don't interfere with my life', and sometimes he's wrong–because sometimes the Alliance is America, this beautiful shining light of democracy. But sometimes the Alliance is America in Vietnam: we have a lot of petty politics, we are way out of our league and we have no right to control these people. And yet! Sometimes the Alliance is America in Nazi Germany. And Mal can't see that, because he was a Vietnamese."
Joss Whedon

Though I said something similar to this not too long ago and man was I flamed for it by the 'real' 'loyal' Browncoats. Made me laugh it did, oh how I did laugh.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 10:17 AM

TENTHCREWMEMBER

Could you please just make it stranger? Stranger. Odder. Could be weirder. More bizarre. How about uncanny?

Not totally. The expansion was what the Alliance wanted. But the idea of being "independent" they saw as a having the potential to infect other planets already under their control. Thus, they had to crush it, or risk losing what they already had. They tell everyone, your Alliance for your own good and give it the label "Unification" because they see the system as unified under one rule.

The Alliance said everyone was going to follow Alliance rule, and the border/rim worlds said "Uhh, no." At that point, the Alliance had already decided the whole system was theirs and thus it is a rebellion from their perspective. Just like the U.S. Colonials were seen as rebels, not revolutionaries by the British (it was part of the British Empire from the British view, which is why the Colonials were pissed because they had no representation in the Empire). The Browncoats may have seen themselves as seperate, but the Alliance said they weren't and reinforced this with military action. The Browncoats reciprocate, and thus a war:

A war for UNIFICATION, from the Alliance view.
A war for INDEPENDENCE, from the Independents view.

A war versus rebellious citizens who aren't enlightened.
A war by revolutionaries who want to stay free.

Of course, one could also argue that since it was the Alliance (or some earlier form of it) that terraformed (or maybe outsourced it to Blue Sun) the outer planets, that they technically were Alliance territory all along. Again, rebellion.

The last thing the Alliance needed to do after declaring they owned the 'verse was to let any one world say no to their rule. What happens if the people of Osirus suddenly decide, "Hey, if the people of Whitefall are enlightened enough to rule themselves, then we can too because we are even more enlightened then they are"? The Alliance falls apart, slowly at first then quickly like a ball of snow rolling downhill until WHAM! it is no more. Then you have over 70 worlds all competing and conflicting with eachother and it becomes alot like present day Earth.

I'm not saying the Alliance was wrong, just that it was a rebellion they had to stop to prove they were right (from their point of view).

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:20 PM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by TenthCrewMember:
Additionally, I believe the whole reason for the Independent uprising was that the Alliance WAS NOT big enough to control all the planets and moons, and really didn't care what the border worlds were doing until the Border Worlds decided they wanted out. In an effort to keep planets closer to the core from getting the same idea, they tried to crush the rebellion before it began (a preemptive move) and that proved folly as the Independent movement used it as a "Look look! See the violence inherent in the system! Help help! We're bein' repressed!" and it only fueled the cause.

Oh, so it was like a War of Norther--Central Aggression?

Though, that still doesn't jive with the fact that it was a unification / invasion war. That's the key difference between this and any civil war.

It does make sense within the context of your other point, however; it seems perfectly plausible that the Alliance Parliament believed any independent world would eventually be a threat to itself, and perhaps under the auspices of 'spreading civilization' wanted to nullify this threat. A closer parallel, then, might be the US seizure of Native American lands: under the guise of spreading civilization, the central government seized all territory not within its control that it could. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:37 PM

GRIZWALD

Quote:
"Look look! See the violence inherent in the system! Help help! We're bein' repressed!"

LOL!

Oh great, now I gotta go watch THAT show again...

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 1, 2006 1:38 PM

CITIZEN

I think there are a lot of parallels, like the European colonisations all over the world. "Sure we're killing Zulus on mass, but its okay because we're civilising them..."

Oldest excuse in the book.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
You should never give powers to a leader you like that you’d hate to have given to a leader you fear

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE