Inara - a Wiccan perspective by incongresswiththebeast

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Inara - a Wiccan perspective

POSTED BY: INCONGRESSWITHTHEBEAST
UPDATED: Friday, May 12, 2006 05:14
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VIEWED: 17148
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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
"All very fine historically, but I fail to see how any of this means their any less meaningful, spiritual, or enlightened than the Bible?"

What the fuck is it with you and making up things that I never said? Listen, cause this is the last time I'm gonna say it before boredom truly sets in: this religion is funny and silly on its own terms, by its own logic. It will never need goth chicks and quartz crystals to make it stupid 'cause it was already there.

"Uh look, I don't agree with their point of view any more than you do, but denying the sheer amount of energy the Church put into exploring the philosophy of theology is absurd. In fact, the Christian drive for metaphysics are what created the modern university system of explored knowledge- the direct precursor to the scientific method and the englightenment came directly from their toiling. The nonsense those flatheads adhere to is several orders of magnitude more sophisticated than yours."

So yes, you did say Christains are more enlightened, hell you said they spawned the Enlightenment. And yes, you did point to a lack of Wiccan texts as an example.
It has been brought to your attention that there are, in fact, Wiccan texts. You differ them from the Bible is several ways. Therefore, the only possible conclusion you could have meant is that their texts don't compare.

I most certainly did not misintrepret you. Perhaps you need to follow your own thread of though closer.

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
You see, the stupidity here is what scientists call "multi-causal", a fancy way of saying there's a whole slew of reasons not to respect it! Why, it's dumb because of it's metaphysical assumptions, the people who worship it, AND the fact that it, you know, technically isn't actually Wicca.

Or, let's put it in terms you understand: maybe you should have an open mind about the many reasons to laugh at it.

That was actually funny. First you make a grandiose statement, saying we shouldn't respect religion because there's a lot of reasons we shouldn't respect it. Then you say I can't understand those terms (perhaps because it's circular logic), and then you paraphrase something else entirely. Clever.

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:

"We're actually getting into an intellectual discussion. I'm almost enjoying it."

You know, sometimes I get glimpses of you as a real grim fella. It interests me to think: I wonder how many people here would ACTUALLY get along with the rough and tumble types of the Firefly crew. I don't think everyone would: you, for instance, I could see getting killed by any number of the main male leads you quote.

You have no idea what I think on any of the issues I have brought forth other than my own prejudices I have explicitly stated, so saying I wouldn't fit is yet another bad assumption of my character. And it is another satirizing comment which I can only assume is meant to gall browncoats into thinking that I'm not a real browncoat, so my opinions don't matter.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:38 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

I think the only way to solve this is to dress all the Christians up in white tabbards with red crosses, full plate mail and long swords. Then, dress all the Wiccans up in ropes and wooden stakes with some dirty rags for decency. If their magic is real, they'll find a way.

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:45 AM

RCAT

incongresswiththebeast,
Howdy, and welcome. Sorry your original post got hijacked into this debate (tho' it has been mildly entertaining). Interesting thoughts on the wiccan spin to the companions. My take on the companions and the guild was more along the lines of the geisha (not chinese but still eastern). I figured a lot of the 'sacredness' of the rituals was to make it acceptal to polite society and, over time, it became truth (and believed by most involved). Early on, considering all the dirt the guild (a consolidated group of 'working' women and men) had on wealthy clients, they would easily have enough leverage to elivate their status initially. After a while the rituals were real, the social status and power of the guild was too.

-Some people juggle geese!

CHRISMOORHEAD, rofl! Isn't that the point the BDH's show up in the nick of time? "Yea, but they're our witches".

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:58 AM

CHRISMOORHEAD

Mmm, yes, indeed, with rifles to match our swords. Damn those big... damn heroes...

Have you ever:
Used your teeth as wire strippers?
Given yourself stitches?
Made improvised munitions with no base supplies?
Pissed in a canteen?
Gone a month without bathing?

If so, you MIGHT just be a !HOOAH MOTHERF*CKER!

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 1:17 AM

BITTERBIERCE

The rest of it was boring, but the end, oh the end. I've never seen ANY inferences so tenuously made in my life, this is almost brilliantly inane. I'm going to quote both side-by side in case anyone else is watching. They need to see how crazy you are:

What I said:

"You know, sometimes I get glimpses of you as a real grim fella. It interests me to think: I wonder how many people here would ACTUALLY get along with the rough and tumble types of the Firefly crew. I don't think everyone would: you, for instance, I could see getting killed by any number of the main male leads you quote."

What you managed to glean from it:

"You have no idea what I think on any of the issues I have brought forth other than my own prejudices I have explicitly stated, so saying I wouldn't fit is yet another bad assumption of my character. And it is another satirizing comment which I can only assume is meant to gall browncoats into thinking that I'm not a real browncoat, so my opinions don't matter"

The hell? It's like you were responding to the guy talking in your head. I said you seem grim to me, and somehow this turns into me knowing about your beliefs or prejudices or anything else I wasn't talking about. Holy CRAP you're random.

The second part was the most bizzare, though: by me idly wondering whether you'd get along with the crew, somehow I'm angling to get you to look bad in front of others? You're not grim, you're stone cold nuts. Or intensely stupid, one or the other or a combo pack. I couldn't care less about what they think of you. And just so we're clear, what you said was broadcast on W-KRZY. This is clinical dysfunction-level insane on your part.

"So yes, you did say Christains are more enlightened, hell you said they spawned the Enlightenment."

How can they be more enlightened if their central idea is wrong? The definition of enlightenment assumes correct notions that Christians don't have. Oh, and for today's history lesson: the Enlightenment was a REACTION TO the Age of Faith. It happened DESPITE the Church, not because it was the Church. The spawning of the Enlightenment was merely an unintended result of their metaphysical flights of fancy. The Enlightnment was enlightened because it defined the world away from Church authority. So no, I didn't say Christians are more enlightened and if you could read you'd know that.
I said I respected people who think systematically and hard, which they did. Those two things, enlightenment and systematic thinking? Not related.

You seem entirely immune to exact concepts.

"I most certainly did not misintrepret you"

Fuck, I'm beginning to think you didn't even READ me. I'm not sure you can understand this sentence.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 1:25 AM

BITTERBIERCE

All we need to understand this posting is to quote one sentence from it and compare it with what you'd said in the previous one:

What you say now:

"...instead of actually refuting something, you just mention how it bores you to death"

What you said previously:

"We're actually getting into an intellectual discussion"

And that about covers the consistancy of your mental processes.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 6:54 AM

CEDRIC

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:

And that about covers the consistancy of your mental processes.

I hope that someday, you are able to laugh at yourself as much as I'm laughing at you now. I'd explain why, but you just wouldn't get the joke.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 8:08 AM

CEDRIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by ThePistonEngine:

You refer to the lack of Pagan texts.

There is actually a number of base texts that Pagans can work from. I know of Llewellyn's Sourcebook Series, there is probably others. One of which is sitting on my bookshelf, "Three Books Of Occult Philosophy" by Henry Cornelius Agrippa of Nettesheim. It was written in the late 15th/early 16th century.

At any rate, just thought I'd point out that there are a number of base texts for Pagans.

I'd like to chime in on this.

It's true, Wicca is not based on texts the way that the Abrahamic religions are. Those who believe that God can be found in a book see this as a weakness. Many who follow Wicca realize that direct experience of the Divine is more important than experience filtered through books.

Having said that, I'll add that many Wiccans supplement, enhance, or even bring about direct revelation by studying texts from many different sources; most Wiccans engage in a lot of comparative religious study. Some prefer secondary sources, though I like to read primary sources (in translation, unfortunately) whenever I can. I've found insight in various mythologies as well as the teachings of the major religions, even the teachings of Jesus.

In fact, it was Christ who advised spiritual seekers not to cast their pearls before swine, which is part of why I'm not going to bother trying to impress BitterBierce.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 8:25 AM

THEPISTONENGINE

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
All we need to understand this posting is to quote one sentence from it and compare it with what you'd said in the previous one:

What you say now:

"...instead of actually refuting something, you just mention how it bores you to death"

What you said previously:

"We're actually getting into an intellectual discussion"

And that about covers the consistancy of your mental processes.

Yes, obviously my opinions changed somewhat. between now and then. Probably because you again decided to get of the track of discussing your opinions and just started, well, randomness. It's amazing how you twist yourself into thinking you didn't say what you plainly did.

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:
The rest of it was boring, but the end, oh the end. I've never seen ANY inferences so tenuously made in my life, this is almost brilliantly inane. I'm going to quote both side-by side in case anyone else is watching. They need to see how crazy you are:

What I said:

"You know, sometimes I get glimpses of you as a real grim fella. It interests me to think: I wonder how many people here would ACTUALLY get along with the rough and tumble types of the Firefly crew. I don't think everyone would: you, for instance, I could see getting killed by any number of the main male leads you quote."

What you managed to glean from it:

"You have no idea what I think on any of the issues I have brought forth other than my own prejudices I have explicitly stated, so saying I wouldn't fit is yet another bad assumption of my character. And it is another satirizing comment which I can only assume is meant to gall browncoats into thinking that I'm not a real browncoat, so my opinions don't matter"

The hell? It's like you were responding to the guy talking in your head. I said you seem grim to me, and somehow this turns into me knowing about your beliefs or prejudices or anything else I wasn't talking about. Holy CRAP you're random.

There is nothin fallacious about my reasoning. You assume I'm grim, which has nothing to do with the ideas I set forth. Therefore its comment on my personality. Then I go on to mention You have no idea what I actually believe. Its true, you don't. I've explicitly stated a few opinions and prejudices I have, but you don't. So you've no business how well I'd get along on Firefly and who'd shoot me. Now, as I was searching for any motive behind that statement, the only thing I could think of was wahat I said before. I did mention it's an assumption. But YOU said it. I merely broke it down.

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:

The second part was the most bizzare, though: by me idly wondering whether you'd get along with the crew, somehow I'm angling to get you to look bad in front of others? You're not grim, you're stone cold nuts. Or intensely stupid, one or the other or a combo pack. I couldn't care less about what they think of you. And just so we're clear, what you said was broadcast on W-KRZY. This is clinical dysfunction-level insane on your part.

Good cold analysis. Keep it up.

Quote:
Originally posted by BitterBierce:

"So yes, you did say Christains are more enlightened, hell you said they spawned the Enlightenment."

How can they be more enlightened if their central idea is wrong? The definition of enlightenment assumes correct notions that Christians don't have. Oh, and for today's history lesson: the Enlightenment was a REACTION TO the Age of Faith. It happened DESPITE the Church, not because it was the Church. The spawning of the Enlightenment was merely an unintended result of their metaphysical flights of fancy. The Enlightnment was enlightened because it defined the world away from Church authority. So no, I didn't say Christians are more enlightened and if you could read you'd know that.
I said I respected people who think systematically and hard, which they did. Those two things, enlightenment and systematic thinking? Not related.

You seem entirely immune to exact concepts.

"I most certainly did not misintrepret you"

Fuck, I'm beginning to think you didn't even READ me. I'm not sure you can understand this sentence.

Again, look at your own blasted quote! I mean, how can you miss your own quote!

"Uh look, I don't agree with their point of view any more than you do, but denying the sheer amount of energy the Church put into exploring the philosophy of theology is absurd. In fact, the Christian drive for metaphysics are what created the modern university system of explored knowledge- the direct precursor to the scientific method and the englightenment came directly from their toiling. The nonsense those flatheads adhere to is several orders of magnitude more sophisticated than yours."

I said that you said they were MORE enlightened than Pagans. If that isn't evident from those words, our discussion is at an end because you are seriously dodging your own words.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 10:24 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:

Many who follow Wicca realize that direct experience of the Divine is more important than experience filtered through books.

I never thought of it like this, but looking back this makes perfect sense. Every book that I've looked at on Wicca isn't anything like a bible, but more like a recipe book. They state the basic philosophy and then a large number of spells. Basically stating, here's what we're about, now do do it, experience it. How can you write that down?

Kind of like Buddhists refusing to write down what nirvana is.

Thanks for this. I got some pondering to do

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 10:57 AM

SAMEERTIA

Forgive me if this has been said, but I got bogged down by the nasty arguement going on and couldn't possibly dig through all the viciousness.

I see Inara's view of sacred sex as far older and more Eastern/Buddhist than Wiccan.

The practice of Tantra- Living in the full senses of the body- encompasses harnessing and using physical desire to strengthen the soul and spirit. This goes back far deeper in Eastern civilization than the Celtic Wiccan practices.

Today's Wicca encompasses portions of Tantra as part of it's collection of beliefs, and I think that is where the comparison takes place.

Everything that we see and know of Inara points to the practice of the Sacred Tantric- She lives in her body. The slow sensuality of the sponge-bath- a ritual cleansing. The way she holds her cup of tea close to her, smelling it's fragrance before sipping- living with all of her senses.

Frankly, Bitter, you are attacking the religious views of another member. Which, if I'm not mistaken, is called Prejudice and Intolerance. I'm sure you think that it's perfectly all right for you attack others on the basis of their religion. You mentioned Nazis before. Notice any resemblence?

I'm not saying that it's the case with you, but I have to mention here that all the 'trained philosphers' who I know have all the spirituality of a dung-heap in summer.

Of course, some Buddhists would argue that a dung-heap in summer has it's own fragrance, it's own life-source in the worms and insects that break it down, it's own beauty as part of the process of nature, imbueing it with it's own spirituality.

I'm a Priestess of the Goddess, not a Buddhist monk, so I'm afraid I stand by my original interpretation of such.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 11:02 AM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

I really think this is an interesting discussion topic (Inara, Wicca, Sacred prostitition, the church, eastern versus western sexual values) but I think that many will not bother to read the thread due to the serious hijack.

Should we start a new thread? Any why doesn't this forum have an IGNORE MEMBER option??

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 11:06 AM

THEPISTONENGINE

Good call.

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
I really think this is an interesting discussion topic (Inara, Wicca, Sacred prostitition, the church, eastern versus western sexual values) but I think that many will not bother to read the thread due to the serious hijack.

Should we start a new thread? Any why doesn't this forum have an IGNORE MEMBER option??

~~~~~
"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 11:28 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:

I really think this is an interesting discussion topic (Inara, Wicca, Sacred prostitition, the church, eastern versus western sexual values) but I think that many will not bother to read the thread due to the serious hijack.

I agree entirely.

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:

Should we start a new thread?

Not sure that would help. Those that we don't want to come with us would just come anyway.

It would make the thread shorter though

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:

Any why doesn't this forum have an IGNORE MEMBER option??

Up until very recently, it hasn't been even close to necessary. Everyone just respected eachother (for the most part). Perhaps it's time that something like this be implemented.

*sigh* 'Tis a sad day when we start talking about something like this.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 11:39 AM

THEPISTONENGINE

The sad thing it is it's mostly my fault, if I just ignored BitterBierce we'd have no problem... Or would we just have an ignored and vieled problem? Blah, don't really care. I felt Bierce needed to be taken down a coupla notches, I did my best to do it (I think I suceeded, he thinks I'm a moron[feeling is genuinely mutual], everyone has their own opinion), and I'm done talking to him, probably forever.

But I do think a new thread would be better suited to continuing the discussion. I promise not to flame unless someone starts to be condescending/disrespectful without cause in their opinions.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:02 PM

HIXIE129

This was very interesting on both sides.

I had always thought that Wicca was a type of furniture. :)

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:20 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
*sigh* 'Tis a sad day when we start talking about something like this.

I think everyone's over reacting here. There are much more offensive and hateful types on internet messageboards than old BB here.

Nobody's suffered sever psychological trauma from this thread have they? No? Good

, then lets carry on as we were before.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:40 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Quote:
*sigh* 'Tis a sad day when we start talking about something like this.

I think everyone's over reacting here. There are much more offensive and hateful types on internet messageboards than old BB here.

Nobody's suffered sever psychological trauma from this thread have they? No? Good , then lets carry on as we were before.

The problem isn't just this thread, it's the general tone right now on these forums.

Perhaps I am overreacting, perhaps not. Time will tell.

One thing's for certain though, I hope I'm wrong about this.

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 12:51 PM

THEPISTONENGINE

I know what's wrong.
It's bitterness. We're all so bitter because our firefly fixes are simply repeated episodes, watching the deleted scenes, and searching the net for paraphenelia. When we get Firefly back, we'll all be less snappy.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 1:38 PM

CUNNINGORANGETOQUE

I am a 17 year old male, brought up in a Christian household, going to a United Church, but in the past year or so i have been practicing Wicca, because my old girlfriend is wicca, and it really interested me, because it made a lot of sense to what was and is going on in my life. It is kindof annoying to get past the stereotypes, as my parents don't really take it seriously, and my friends critisize. THERE CAN BE MALE WICCANS!!There just aren't as many as female. Aside from that i have been practicing it and getting away from the "Fluffbunny" stage, and getting into it more in-depth.

I'll try and bring this back on topic:

Very interesting topic, i must say INCONGRESSWITHTHEBEAST! It brings up many interesting points, such as Inara's views towards sex and sexuality. this may be a a neat topic to explore, but perhaps not in this area. Perhaps we could get a group together and make a site to discuss or somesuch, because it would be pretty cool.

-Noel

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Creator of "THE OTHER SHINY CAPTION GAME"!
www.livejournal.com/users/the_zeppo01
Time for some thrilling heroics!
poor_noel2@hotmail.com

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 1:44 PM

SMOOF

Quote:
Originally posted by incongresswiththebeast:

Atherton Wang from "Shindig" being the clearest example.

Freudian slip?

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 3:58 PM

ZOID

UnregisteredCompanion wrote, in part:

Quote:
...(from The Golden Bough by Sir James Frazer)

'Thus at Babylon every woman, whether rich or poor, had once in her life to submit to the embraces of a stranger at the temple of Mylitta, that is, of Ishtar or Astarte, and to dedicate to the goddess the wages earned by this sanctified harlotry. The sacred precinct was crowded with women waiting to observe the custom. Some of them had to wait there for years...

I would quote your entire post, since it all applies, but I fear the space on this thread is primarily reserved for pissing.

This is exactly what I was driving at in my 2-year-old post linked above. I believe the Companion's Guild is religiously related to Babylonian/Assyrian/Sumerian 'whore priestesses' (of which Cleopatra was reportedly the last). So, thanks for the quotes.

Additionally, I believe there may be some Herbertine "Bene Gesserit"-style manipulation of many religious elements into a combinatory form, which allows for the greatest control of practitioners (read: Companions). See also, The Orange Catholic Bible at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible and Missionaria Protectiva at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit#Missionaria_Protectiva.

In this way ancient Middle Eastern religions might be mixed with Far and Near Oriental religions in a way that serves the Guild best.

Be that as it may, Inara -- even if she is supposed to be totally secure in her sexuality -- is clearly having a crisis of conscience, which is caused by her own open sexuality. Otherwise, why does she cry when Mal has sex with Nandi? Or did she just stub her toe nastily and we didn't see it? And remember the last scene of Serenity in which she plainly tells Mal that she is unsure whether she wants to resume her previous life; if that ain't a crisis of faith, of losing one's religion, I don't know what is. In much the same way that some people are not cut out for celibacy, perhaps Inara is not cut out for anything but monogamy. That's something I can relate to (even tho' I'm male

), and in which I'm a 'true believer'.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
BitterBierce and ThePistonEngine: You guys ever consider taking the act on tour? No lecture halls, either. I'm thinking an open field at sunrise, ten paces and matched uzis... Now, who wouldn't buy a ticket for that?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Monday, March 6, 2006 6:05 AM

INCONGRESSWITHTHEBEAST

Um... wow. Over 70 replies to my first post. And it appears I've started a board war too. Start how you mean to go on.

There are FAR too many replies here for me to address, but I'll do my best to answer a few of the points raised.

Yes, Inara cries just after she's told Mal that Companions aren't puritanical about sex. For me, that scene doesn't contradict the way I think she views sex. If anything it underscores it. Inara has sex for a living, and she sleeps with a lot of people, but she never loses her awareness of it's importance, and the connection it creates between people (no doubt the reason why companions are allowed to choose their clients and not the other way around.) Nandi has shared something very special with Mal, connected with him in a way Inara has never been able to. She isn't squemish about it, but it's natural that she'd be upset. If she saw sex as an unimportant but pleasant diversion then she would have no reason to cry.

Yes, Companions are respected on the core planets. That's established from the very beginning - Mal mentions in the pilot episode that most planets won't allow a vessel to dock without a decent companion on board. But while Inara commands a great deal of respect throughout the series - as when she "claims" Mal and Zoe in "The Train Job", the day to day attitude she faces is very different. Very few people, Mal included, are able to get past the thought of what she does for a living. On a side note, It's hugely interesting to me that, after Kaylee, Book is the first person seen to accept who Inara is and what she does without fuss.

Does Inara always act as though sex is a hugely sacred thing? Nope. Do Wiccans? Nope. We respect it deeply, it's true, but we also accept it as natural and, well, fun. It can put you in touch with the creative force of the universe, but only when both those taking part are in the correct frame of mind and focusing on that intent. Do we do that every time we have sex? Nope. What we ~always~ do is treat ourselves, and the person we're having sex with, with respect. Like Inara, it means that Wiccans in general don't tend to be puritanical about sex. But I still would have been upset if the man I loved slept with someone who wasn't me!

I chose my board name because I thought it was funny. The scene it's taken from my all time favourite scene on the show, and I liked the reference.

I've never been in congress, with or without a beast.

Yes, Wicca does take it's inspiration from many different cultures and religions, so a lot of people describe it as a mish-mosh of elements from everywhere. There is an underlying theology that we stick to, but other than that we find what works for us and go with that, adapting it where we need to. It's a lot like philosophy that way. It's also why I posted this as a Wiccan perspective on Inara, not the Wiccan perspective.

My post is pretty much my view on Inara, as it relates to my own personal beliefs. Obviously, those beliefs colour my view of the character, and Inara is definately not Wiccan herself - she's Buddhist. Still, because of her role in the 'verse, she's become a character that deals with the issues a lot of Wiccans face. That's the perspective I wanted to share with the board, to see what other people thought.

I'm not 18. I'm not middle aged. I don't wear gothy clothes, and I'm fairly certain my interpersonal skills are at an okay level. I don't listen to New Age music, but I do listen to Guns and Roses which I've been told is much, much worse. I have a few crystals, but no cats. I do love Buffy though. Who doesn't love Buffy??? It's a great show!!!

Um, that's it. Excuse me while I run away and think very hard about what the heck I'm going to post next!

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Monday, March 6, 2006 7:00 AM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Be that as it may, Inara -- even if she is supposed to be totally secure in her sexuality -- is clearly having a crisis of conscience, which is caused by her own open sexuality. Otherwise, why does she cry when Mal has sex with Nandi? Or did she just stub her toe nastily and we didn't see it? And remember the last scene of Serenity in which she plainly tells Mal that she is unsure whether she wants to resume her previous life; if that ain't a crisis of faith, of losing one's religion, I don't know what is.

It might even run deeper than that... Right in the pilot episode, you had Inara needing to feel 'cleansed' after her last client. It wasn't even anything too bad: he asked her to stay there, she declined, and he made a little slight with the comment about her clock being rigged.

Oh, and then there's the line in Objects in Space which River heard: "I'm a big girl", etc.

And then, after Mal's insulted her profession so many times (I'm thinking Shindig here, where during the dance, too, he pointed out that her life was dishonest), she's still in love with him.

I think Inara's always been a little ambivalent and unsure of her chosen profession. Maybe, like Book, her leaving the Guild and settin' sail with Serenity was a journey to find herself once again. And Mal's certainly helped her find herself, even though it ain't pretty at first glance. KF

~KF

Lord, I'm walking your way. Let me in, for my feet are sore, my clothes are ragged.
Look in my eyes, Lord, and my sins will play out on them as on a screen. Read them all.
Forgive what you can and send me on my path. I will walk on until you bid me rest.
~Haven Prayer

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Monday, March 6, 2006 7:01 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by incongresswiththebeast:
Um, that's it. Excuse me while I run away and think very hard about what the heck I'm going to post next!

There are times that I wish more people did that...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:06 PM

BITTERBIERCE

I can agree with that. Hell, I promise to buy you ten beers and a good meal the day FF comes back.

Forgive my lack of response, I haven't even had time to see what you've written yet- the girlfriend came back on Sunday and I've been involved in getting nooky and going out with those couples friends. It's been very nice not being a hermit. I'll get to the rest of these later on in the week.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:52 PM

ERIC

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:

Additionally, I believe there may be some Herbertine "Bene Gesserit"-style manipulation of many religious elements into a combinatory form, which allows for the greatest control of practitioners (read: Companions). See also, The Orange Catholic Bible at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Catholic_Bible and Missionaria Protectiva at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit#Missionaria_Protectiva.

Yay! I knew there was some way to bring Dune into this...just wasn't sure how. Anyway, if a total newb may speak freely...

I think Mal's attitude toward Inara and her profession contains a pretty heavy socioeconomic element. Although he constantly degrades what she, a "Registered Companion" (in gold calligraphy, etc.), does, he never once bats an eye about helping out Nandi's girls without payment, as soon as he knows they're common whores. He treats Nandi and the others with a respect he never shows Inara. Although whores, they're still working stiffs like him, trying to survive. I think then that his hostility toward Inara has to do with resentment at the (real or perceived) "easiness" of her life. Not only does she have sex for money, she gets to choose from among many rich people to have sex with, for LOTS of money. In his eyes, it might look like just getting paid to live out your (his) fantasy. And for someone who's lost everything, and has to scrounge just to get by, that might strike him as just really unfair.

Also, the closest he gets to enunciating his objections to her career is in "Shindig," when he decries "the lie of it." Simple prostitution is at least straightforward, but a companion is expected to act like it's all real, at least for official engagements. His hostility could then also be not just his rejection of the whole "sex is sacred" idea, but contempt in others' (possibly perceived) pretension in accepting it. So I don't think it's just his attitude toward sex, but towards a society where rich people get to delude themselves into believing they're more enlightened than they are, and where pretty girls get paid to have a good time. Not saying this is how it is, but maybe a bit how Mal might see things. My guess is he'd have the same view of, e.g., Hollywood celebrities from Earth-that-was.

Course, this might all be painfully obvious, and i just wasted many minutes making myself look dumb. Web anonymity is a good thing.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 5:58 PM

THEPISTONENGINE

No, as a noob you have to earn your right to speak freely by a carefully laid plan of hazing. ChrisMooreHead was in the Army, so he probably knows better than anyone here how to haze. We'll delegate the responsibility to him.

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 10:04 PM

ZOID

Eric wrote:

Quote:
...Anyway, if a total newb may speak freely...

A "total newb" is encouraged to speak, when the n00b in question speaks as well as you do. And knowing your Herbert is a great calling card...

As to your commentary, I don't believe I've ever seen it put that way specifically, and I believe your analysis is sound.

I've always seen Mal as chivalrous: helping the weak, championing truth, et cetera. His rendering aid to the HoG girls (how wrong does that sound?) makes sense from my perspective because they are in distress from an oppressive force (Burgess) of overpowering strength. And Mal is the patron saint of lost causes.
(NB: Okay, technically, that's Saint Jude; but, go with me here.)

Inara is not poor, defenseless or weak, in any sense of those words. Mal is enamored of her, but he just doesn't know how to approach her. Inara is used to polite men who dance around her sense of propriety like bees around honeysuckle, not men who cut to the chase and 'tell it like it is'. Every time she makes a polite overture toward Mal, he speaks openly, she gets frustrated by his lack of tact, and an argument ensues (sounds a lot like my marriage, btw).

But your argument works as well or better than mine, in many respects. Unfortunately, I'm an old school romantic. I need Mal to be ultimately noble; not petty, or even subconsciously ignoble.

I'm with Book: I think Mal's got 'a way' about him that's inherently good. Even when he doesn't know why, he rescues young girls and their naive brothers because they are weak and need protection. He is instinctively good...

A pox upon you for making me doubt that, with your impeccable logic!

Antiquatedly,

zoid

P.S.
Seriously, excellent post, dude. Write more.
_________________________________________________

"...I knew you let her kiss you." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Firefly, "Our Mrs. Reynolds"

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 12:18 AM

DOFFE

FINN MAC CUMHAL wrote:

Quote:
certainly not with the Christian and Buddhists religions, who both hold celibacy, not sexuality, as sacred.

Buddist religion (if You call it that) has different paths. Some of them use celibacy as the tool, some use sexuality. Look at Tibetan traditions, You find some interesting stuff about sex there.

What all of them have in common is that sexual misconduct is a pretty unskilled way of being, ultimately agreeing that "misconduct" means causing harm to yourself or others.

In other words it is not WHAT you are doing but HOW and with WHAT ATTITUDE and WHAT OUTCOME you get. And here we have Inara, warm hearted, compassionate, forgiving being that helps others ot overcome their problems, when possible.

Sound quite buddhist to me :) And hey, Wiccan perspective is just another angle on the truth, too :) At least I'm being non-Wiccan can see some common sense in it and like it.

Keep flying.
Doffe.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 12:28 PM

KIZYR

Quote:
Originally posted by Doffe:
Buddist religion (if You call it that) has different paths. Some of them use celibacy as the tool, some use sexuality. Look at Tibetan traditions, You find some interesting stuff about sex there.

What all of them have in common is that sexual misconduct is a pretty unskilled way of being, ultimately agreeing that "misconduct" means causing harm to yourself or others.

I think it's implied in the series (and stated explicity in the Serenity RPG book) that the dominant Buddhist tradition is Mayahana Buddhism.

Regardless, Siddhartha Gautama himself spoke about the importance of accepting responsibility for the consequences and outcomes of one's given actions; i.e., that it's not enough to just examine your intentions and motives when doing something, but you have to figure best you can on the outcome of your actions.

The same belief carries through to the idea of both reincarnation and karma. Both of them are more direct manifestations of consequences--or benefits, as the case may be. So, while individual Buddhist sects and traditions might not disagree on the importance of considering consequences, sex is a subject more specific that opens room up for debate. KF

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:24 PM

BROWNCOAT2006

Wow... lots and LOTS of posts here to read.... I personally am semi-athiest... and I will explain this... I do not belive that one religion has all the right answers... and I am still looking for one that can cover how I feel about God... or Buddha, or whatever it is someone worships... I have no problems with anyones religons, unlike a LOT of biggits I know here in Prior Lake, Minnesota... most of the most biggoted people I know are christans, but w/e not meaning to insult christianity or anything... just seems that hardly any religion actually practices what they preach... I have noticed a lot of the parrallels that you are all discussing about Firefly and because I know a (very very) small amout about most religions (as I am trying to find my way in this crasy messed up 'verse of ours) I came to a lot of the same conclusions the rest of you did about Inara's wicca bits.... hmmm, Im not very eloquent tonight, can't seem to say what Im trying to say... and it's makeing me mad :( anyways, just throwing some of my own personal feelings in here and hopeing the general jyst of what I was trying to say got through.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 7:33 PM

FREDGIBLET

This is a blast from the past, this thread is two months old. Wow.

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
just seems that hardly any religion actually practices what they preach...

Which is why I abstain

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 9:22 PM

EMMAZULE

Quote:
That's how it works. That's how Wiccans gain respect. It won't come with a Title IX clause and bland American puritanical PC clucking.

...you do realize that Title IX is about gender, not religion? It's the clause folks use to get equal numbers of boys' and girls's athletic teams, it has nothing to do with religion (of course, it has almost nothing to do with reality, either, but that's a moot point).

Just thought I'd point that out... also, Wiccans as a whole aren't HALF as ridiculous as Scientologists (*coughTomCruisecough*), you're only thinking of the New Age Biddy and Goth Teen "Wiccan" subcultures. Having briefly belonged to the latter during freshman year of high school myself (well, minus the "goth" aspect. I was too lazy to go Goth.), I can confirm that most kids getting into it don't know what the actual religion really entails - once they do, they tend to get bored and abandon it, so you really can't call them genuine "Wiccans". Well, you COULD, but I'd have to respectfully disagree on the grounds that a "genuine Wiccan" would actually actively follow and want to follow all of the core bits and pieces of the religion, not, as Willow on BtVS once put it, "[Get] a pentagram and a spice rack and call [oneself] Wiccan." ;)

Quote:
Quote:
Negative viewpoints are valid, provided you give a viewpoint rather than just negativity.

Why? I mean, I did have another reason -fun- but I want to know why I can't merely be negative.

They didn't say you "couldn't be negative". They said pure negativity isn't "valid", and "valid" here would obviously be "valid in the minds of others", since other than your own personal opinion of what is or isn't "valid", that's the only type of "validity" you can have.

So, they're (he's? She's?) right. I don't see very many people agreeing with you here, I mostly see people expressing an opinion that you're being annoying and/or mean for no real reason other than to be mean (which is not a "valid" reason to be mean, in their eyes).

I think in large part your view's potential "validity" in this thread isn't helped by the fact that most people were actually clicking on the link to expect an actual, reasonable, intellectual discussion of an aspect of the Firefly 'verse... not a guy acting like an asshole because he feels like it (and if that's not the only reason you're acting like this, do enligthen me, although it would have to be ONE reason, since I'm sure you "felt like it"; it would seem silly to assume that you're being held at gunpoint and forced to act like this on a random internet site). And, of course, it isn't helped, either, by the fact that you dismissed the OP's thread idea as essentially a load of New Age hooey... without, apparently, having read anything more than the title of the thread (or at least, that's how it read to me, and I'm sure it's how it read to at least some of the others).

Quote:
I "lashed"? Silly me, I thought I just poked a bit o' fun. Here it turns out I was causing welts and bruises! She should put that plant stuff on the wounds, it really helps the burning.

That was a pathetic attempt at satire, you do realize that, don't you? In order for that to work, "lashed out" would have to NOT be an extremely common idiom meaning exactly what it was being used to mean in that context. Jeez, at least have some pride in your asshole-ery, willya? At least it would be remotely funny to read, then.

Ahem.

Now, in response to the OP: Wow, you really should read that essay in "Finding Serenity". It actually references that kind of thing, albeit in a historical context, not a modern one, mostly referring to I believe ancient Greece and other civilizations at or before that time (though I believe it completely ignored the Aztec version, in which the temple preistesses were also holy prostitutes... and before you beat me to it, yes, that DOES sound like a deleted line from the old Batman TV series, heh).

Also interesting is the fact that Inara is portrayed as being primarily Buddhist...ish. Except she, obviously, isn't celibate - and celibacy is actually one of the tenets of Buddhism (mind you, it's an optional one for day-to-day followers, but if you wanna achieve "enlightenment", the way to go is the Abstinent one). Plus, she can get pretty catty with Mal, and that doesn't particularly fall too well under Buddhism, either, since in Buddhism you're supposed to try and avoid... I believe it's called "improper speech" or something like that, basically, cursing, being nasty to people, etc.

I'd say that Inara, having been raised on the (apparently) predominently Chinese planet of Sihnon, has been raised in the Buddhist-influenced CULTURE, but has adopted slightly different personal values - or else, Buddhism's values have changed over the centuries somehow (I sorta doubt it, since they've lasted this long, but it could have been one sect that became more diluted or secular than the others, who knows).

Interesting, really.

~Emma

Shiny.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 9:29 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by incongresswiththebeast (posted 06 March):
Um, that's it. Excuse me while I run away and think very hard about what the heck I'm going to post next!

I don't think she ever posted anything after that.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 9:33 PM

EMMAZULE

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2006:
Wow... lots and LOTS of posts here to read.... I personally am semi-athiest... and I will explain this... I do not belive that one religion has all the right answers... and I am still looking for one that can cover how I feel about God... or Buddha, or whatever it is someone worships... I have no problems with anyones religons, unlike a LOT of biggits I know here in Prior Lake, Minnesota... most of the most biggoted people I know are christans, but w/e not meaning to insult christianity or anything... just seems that hardly any religion actually practices what they preach... I have noticed a lot of the parrallels that you are all discussing about Firefly and because I know a (very very) small amout about most religions (as I am trying to find my way in this crasy messed up 'verse of ours) I came to a lot of the same conclusions the rest of you did about Inara's wicca bits.... hmmm, Im not very eloquent tonight, can't seem to say what Im trying to say... and it's makeing me mad :( anyways, just throwing some of my own personal feelings in here and hopeing the general jyst of what I was trying to say got through.

That's not "semi-atheist". Atheist is anti-religion, period. The word you're searching for is "Agnostic".

As the saying goes, "Atheists don't believe in anything, and Agnostics don't know what to believe."

I'm pretty much an Agnostic myself. I had one freaky experience that led me to beleive that maybe there's something "out there", and I beleive in some forms of ESP (you know, like that thing that happens when you dream about something and then it actually happens in real life? Happens all the time to me, I even have some of them, every so often, where when it happens, I'm reminded of the dream and can recall how distorted the "picture" or audio were in the original dream. Also, to some extent, I'm willing to believe in "telepathy" between people who are very close to each other, having felt it between my mother and I. But most of that seems to be ending up thinking of the same exact word or phrase, so that could very well be me having been raised by her and having half her genes

)... but other than that, I'm a bit of a skeptic, especially on the afterlife stuff. After said freaky experience, I tried getting into Wicca, but then I just couldn't really believe the whole reincarnation or Summerland things, so I just went back to being an Agnostic, albeit a more Agnostic-y Agnostic than I was before. :P

~Emma

Shiny.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 9:38 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by EmmaZule:
That's not "semi-atheist". Atheist is anti-religion, period. The word you're searching for is "Agnostic".

Yes, he was looking for "agnostic", but I want to point out that atheism isn't about being anti-religious. It's about not believing in God and not belonging to a religion, but that doesn't mean one is opposed to the concept of religion.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 10:49 PM

EMMAZULE

Quote:
Originally posted by Khyron:
Quote:
Originally posted by EmmaZule:
That's not "semi-atheist". Atheist is anti-religion, period. The word you're searching for is "Agnostic".

Yes, he was looking for "agnostic", but I want to point out that atheism isn't about being anti-religious. It's about not believing in God and not belonging to a religion, but that doesn't mean one is opposed to the concept of religion.

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

Oh, I apologize for the misconstru...eption. I meant exactly what you said, actually: the person themselves is the opposite of "religious", in their own views. Didn't mean to imply that atheists were against other people having one.

I know some very nice atheists that have no problem with it at all.

~Emma

Shiny.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:22 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by incongresswiththebeast:
Inara is a person who considers sex sacred in a world that doesn't, something that a lot of Wiccans can sympathise with.

I certainly sympathize, yes. Wow, it's nice to know there are other Pagan Browncoats somewhere!
Has nyone read the essay in Finding Serenity that addresses this topic? I thought it was very well thought out and it's probably my favorite essay in there. It has a great deconstruction of Heart of Gold telling the story of the lost/sacrificed Goddess. It made me love the episode even more than before.
River is still my favorite character, but I do love the symbolism Inara embodies.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 10:31 AM

SAHARA

Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:
BitterBierce,

As a former agnostic turned Wiccan, I just have to say that I enjoy hearing your vitriol nearly as much as you do yourself.
Cedric

Hee hee. Good one Cedric.

I guess I'm an insomniac, dyslexic agnostic. I stay up nights wondering if there's a Dog!

I'm also new to this board. Thanks for a very interesting introduction everyone!

Blackbird fly into the light of the dark, black night.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 11:21 AM

CEDRIC

Quote:
Originally posted by sahara:
Quote:
Originally posted by Cedric:
BitterBierce,

As a former agnostic turned Wiccan, I just have to say that I enjoy hearing your vitriol nearly as much as you do yourself.
Cedric

Hee hee. Good one Cedric.

I'm also new to this board. Thanks for a very interesting introduction everyone!

Glad you liked it, Sahara. While I certainly have a sense of humor about religion, I get tired of people who denigrate my faith as though it's some sort of joke--or perhaps it's a joke they don't get.

Welcome to the board, Sahara!

Cedric

"Some things stay with you, 'til the day you die."
On the Drift: Music Inspired by Firefly and Serenity, now on sale at
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bedlambards/from/celtic

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Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:34 PM

BITTERBIERCE

I lost the point of this thread a while back, but you seemed a little confused in your first sentence:

"...you do realize that Title IX is about gender, not religion? "

It was an allegory about unearned respect. I was likening it to other absurd aspects of politics, see?

"I can confirm that most kids getting into it don't know what the actual religion really entails - once they do, they tend to get bored and abandon it, so you really can't call them genuine 'Wiccans'."

Its of interest to me how often an ersatz class snobbery crops up in religious groups. You sound precisely like a Pentacostal friend I had once. If there's one commonality across all religions, it's the "I'm more authentic" posture, which is directly related to the "those guys aren't authentic, the REAL [Mormons/Scients/Wiccans] are deep and wholly unlike those other silly folks" meme.

"They didn't say you "couldn't be negative".etc. etc. etc. etc."

Yeah, here's where I kinda lost interest earlier, too. Just kinda lose the will to keep reading.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 4:29 AM

DEEPGIRL187

All I have to say is wow. This thread has gone to the very edge of Troll Country without managing to fall into its depths. Hopefully it will be able to stay that way. *hint, hint to certain unnamed parties*

Keeping with the original post, I really like your perspective. While I'm not religious myself, I have studied about Wicca, and I think Wiccan beliefs about sex really apply to Inara's character. Inara does consider sex to be a sacred, healing act. In fact, I think she believes that healing and providing comfort is a Companion's primary duty, not just sexing clients. However, I also believe that Inara is conflicted in her views toward her job (her job, not sex) because of her relationship with Mal. She felt that she could retain emotional distance regarding everything in her life, but her time aboard Serenity has proven otherwise.

One of the great things about Firefly is how each character is really a metaphor for some aspect of life (check out Flame's thread on the BDH's as psychological symbols for more on this topic). Inara is a metaphor not only for lust, but for spirituality. While she is not overtly religious, faith means a great deal to her. All of these facets of Inara's character are the things that make her interesting to watch.

*whew* Sorry about the rant, but this thread gave me a lot to talk about.

At last.
We can retire and give up
this life of crime.

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Friday, May 12, 2006 5:14 AM

NIANI

Not to participate in any argument, but isn't it just a common human courtesy not to trash people's beliefs, if they're not harming anyone?

References to Nazis being comparable to Wicca were made, and in their case I'm all against their beliefs on account of the massive amount of damage done to other people, but it's not very relevant to Wicca.

Wicca and Paganism are just different ways of thinking. Just because they haven't had mass amounts of scholars dissecting and debating them doesn't mean they're worth any less. And even if you think so, it's just polite not to turn your opinions into insults at whatever it is you don't agree with.

On the original topic: I wouldn't say that all Wiccans hold sex to be as important as it seems. Yes, it's considered to be a very sacred act and can create lots of energy, but as I understand it you can go without it within the religion.

Inara seems to be more a sensual creature than a sexual one anyways. Rather than being all lustful and aggressive with it, she's spiritual and passionate with it. The sex seems to be incidental to what she does, contradictory as that sounds. I got the impression that every part of what she does is important, like the tea ceremony being just as holy as the act itself.

Interesting discussion.

-----------------------------
Serenity became my haven-place far too quickly to be healthy

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