Assorted general Firefly/Serenity questions by Anna

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Assorted general Firefly/Serenity questions

POSTED BY: ANNA
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:45
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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:21 AM

Hello! New member, not super-new to the 'Verse, but new to this here forum. My apologies in advance for anything that has already been discussed to death, or if this is posted in the wrong place, all that jazz. Just a few (possibly stupid) musings and questions that I thought I'd throw together in one big ol' melting pot so as not to spam the boards.

Well, where to start?

In the Serenity movie, what happened to Mal "if I ever shoot you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" Reynolds during the scene with the Operative in the companion training house? Sure, I know the Operative should be taken out ASAP, but...I don't know, although, I guess he also left a man behind.

River...do you think she was psychic before the Alliance got their hands on her? Or was it only as a result of their meddling?
Why did they strip her amygdala? What good would it do? Give her fear and adrenaline to fight with??
This is probably very stupid, but were River and the others made to combat the Reavers? Or, just made anyway?

Speaking of Reavers, since they travel in packs, wouldn't they just start to kill and rape and torture each other? I doubt they have any sort of loyalty amongst themselves. If the Reavers were a result of Miranda, will there ever be more of them, or will they run out? How could they create more? I guess the unfortunate soul left to watch will turn Reaver, but is that enough to sustain the race (for lack of a better word)?

Dammit, I KNOW I had more. Oh well, final question...

...Who here has a craving for fruity oaty bars?

Oh, actually, that's another thing: why were they broadcasting that ad? Did they WANT to set her off?? I really can't think of any reason, but maybe I'm missing something.

Anyway, it's mighty nice to be here and to make acquaintance with you folks! I doubt I'll be posting much (of value, at least

) but even from the glimpse I've gotten, I love reading what you all have to say.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:33 AM

MATTCOZ

Mal shooting first was kindof a jab at George Lucas, but for the story it made sense because he understood how much of a threat the operative was. He shot three unarmed men in the movie, one out of mercy, one out of necessity, one out of justified anger.

I think River was very gifted and atleast showed the potential to have psychic abilities. Wasn't made clear if their meddling brought it out of her or not. The stripping of her amygdala wasn't given a specific purpose, but they very well could have done it just to see how she would react to it.

Reavers probably do attack eachother, but they prefer us regular humans. I guess we taste better and have prettier skin.

They broadcasted the ad to set her off so they could find her, and it worked.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:35 AM

NUCLEARDAY

Howdy, Anna, welcome to our little corner of the 'verse. Make yourself at home, and post as often as you like ;p

Let's see... my two cents on a few of those questions:

I think when Mal shot the Operative at the training house, it sort of hinted at just how dangerous he knew the Operative was. One thing I liked about Firefly was hwo you could feel that these characters really cared about staying alive, etc. Sure they stand up for certain things, and sometimes that means risking life and limb... But there's also some scenes where Mal obviously knows what the stakes are. (Like in the Serenity pilot, with Patience. He throws the money back at first... he knows a shootout could mean him or Zoe eating lead, and he'd rather live to get paid another day.) Also, he's not been having the best of times lately, so his normally shaky moral compass may have been a bit troubled...

And my take on the Fruity Oaty Bar commercial: Yeah, I think they were trying to draw River out. They knew what it would do, and knew that she'd create some manner of commotion. (Also, my own inference: They knew someone was hiding her, obviously. Perhaps they also hoped that whoever had taken her in might now have some second thoughts... It's one thing to shelter a harmless crazy girl, and another thing entirely to let a unpredictable killer onboard...)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:37 AM

ANNA

Yeah, I thought that might have been why they were broadcasting it, but then, surely they knew what she'd do, that she might kill someone? But, then I remember it's the Alliance.

I guess the Reavers leave poor acne-ridden teenagers alone then :P

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:39 AM

ANNA

And thank you for the welcome! :D

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:40 AM

SAB39

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:
Hello! New member, not super-new to the 'Verse, but new to this here forum.

I'm new here too so I have no idea whether these things have been discussed before either.

Quote:
River...do you think she was psychic before the Alliance got their hands on her? Or was it only as a result of their meddling?
Why did they strip her amygdala? What good would it do? Give her fear and adrenaline to fight with??

Maybe the bit of your brain that allows you to choose not to feel things is also the part that's stopping you from feeling other people's thoughts...

Quote:
Speaking of Reavers, since they travel in packs, wouldn't they just start to kill and rape and torture each other? I doubt they have any sort of loyalty amongst themselves.

I think they must have pack-loyalty of some sort and they're not entirely unintelligent either - it takes cooperation to operate a large ship and as we saw in the BDM there are quite a lot of Reavers per ship. It's almost as if they're beings who have irresistable urges, but are more than capable of applying intelligence to the question of "what would be the easiest way to satisfy those urges?". Almost like drug addicts I guess.

The big question I had about the Reavers from the movie was why, if 99.9% of the population of Miranda just lay down and let themselves die, the proto-Reavers that were forming at the same time didn't attack the comatose population. One Reaver per 1000 people isn't many, but one Reaver can do a hell of a lot of damage and none of the Mirandans seemed damaged in any way. Not interesting enough prey?

Quote:
If the Reavers were a result of Miranda, will there ever be more of them, or will they run out? How could they create more? I guess the unfortunate soul left to watch will turn Reaver, but is that enough to sustain the race (for lack of a better word)?

Good question. I assumed that this was their way of reproducing too. I wonder if the Reavers are instinctively capable of telling which people have the genetic makeup to turn Reaver and have Pex (is that the right name?) in their own atmosphere to trigger it. But you're right, they'd need to make a lot of attacks to get enough people to sustain the race that way.

Quote:
Oh, actually, that's another thing: why were they broadcasting that ad? Did they WANT to set her off?? I really can't think of any reason, but maybe I'm missing something.

Because they wanted to cause the exact effect that they did cause - River got triggered, caused a ruckus, which got noticed by enough people that news of it made it back to the Operative, thereby giving away River's location...

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 9:44 AM

STORYMARK

Seems the first and second question have been answered in the same way I would have, so I'll just address question 2.

In the River Tam sessions, it is implied that River already possesed some physchic, or at the least, empathic abilities. I believe Simon had a line in one of the episodes about River always knowing what he was thinking. That could be just the bond between siblings, or it could be further evidence of pre-meddling psychic ability.

Or, I could just be remembering wrong.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:24 AM

DAVEC5

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:
Just a few (possibly stupid) musings and questions that I thought I'd throw together in one big ol' melting pot

let me add to the welcoming.....

ok, not stupid questions at all....you have gotten some good answers for the questions already, but here is 2 more cents worth...

Mal and (Opie) the Operative - so, Opie was facing Mal, he was awake - two out three ain't bad.... i think the consensus is that Mal realized the danger he was in not to mention Inara...and he did what needed to be done.

i think River had some psychic ability or the Alliance would not have been so interested in her in the first place...

it's hard to imagine the Reavers not turning on one another, but they did have the ability to maintain and fly their ships, so perhaps there was some form of leadership there. As for more Reavers, they were actually a result of the PAX, not just Miranda, so if the Alliance wanted to create more uber bad guys, they would have means to do so.

finally, the hidden message was probably used to draw out River, which it did....

& welcome, glad you made it!

...and we all shine on...

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:48 AM

GIXXER

Mal would shoot Simon armed and face to face because he's on his crew, he has some regard for him, and like everyone else, he's certain Simon has never hit anyone he shot at.

The Operative, on the other hand is very bad news, and needs to be shot first. Only an idiot would bring chivalry to a gunfight, and against someone who kills for a living? I've got no problem with prudence.

Reivers. A lot of talk about reproduction. I don't think they've been around long enough to have lived a generation. I'll have to check the movie, but I'm not sure how long ago the pax experiment was.

Doorbell... Gotta go.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 10:48 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Quote:
In the Serenity movie, what happened to Mal "if I ever shoot you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" Reynolds during the scene with the Operative in the companion training house? Sure, I know the Operative should be taken out ASAP, but...I don't know, although, I guess he also left a man behind.

River...do you think she was psychic before the Alliance got their hands on her? Or was it only as a result of their meddling?
Why did they strip her amygdala? What good would it do? Give her fear and adrenaline to fight with??
This is probably very stupid, but were River and the others made to combat the Reavers? Or, just made anyway?

Speaking of Reavers, since they travel in packs, wouldn't they just start to kill and rape and torture each other? I doubt they have any sort of loyalty amongst themselves. If the Reavers were a result of Miranda, will there ever be more of them, or will they run out? How could they create more? I guess the unfortunate soul left to watch will turn Reaver, but is that enough to sustain the race (for lack of a better word)?

Dammit, I KNOW I had more. Oh well, final question...

...Who here has a craving for fruity oaty bars?

Oh, actually, that's another thing: why were they broadcasting that ad? Did they WANT to set her off?? I really can't think of any reason, but maybe I'm missing something.

My take on your questions:

1. Mal - I think he views people on his ship (passengers, cargo, or crew) a bit differently than he views "outsiders". For example, he views Simon as *possibly* someone he'll have to have a confrontation with, someday, but he's willing to give him the benifit of the doubt for now. And he's honorable enough to let Simon know that if there DOES come a time when he views him as an enemy, or at least enough of a potential enemy to warrant a confrontation, it will be an "honorable" confrontation, and he'll give Simon a fighting chance. For a "known enemy" or an outsider like The Operative or Jubal Early, he's under no such self-obligation; he can kill them without warning, because it's what they'd do to him if given the opportunity.

2. River - (a) I feel they saw some telepathic *potential* in her, at least, and wanted to further explore that. They also saw her almost-inhuman intelligence level and her grace and ability to discern patterns of movement (like dancing and fighting moves, for instance) at an accelerated rate. Such an ability would make her a formidable weapon, even without being a reader.

(b) I don't know why her amygdala was stripped, unless it was to enhance/unleash some characteristics, or simply as an experiment in eugenics, just to see what would happen. Such experiments aren't unheard of even in our own recent history...

(c) Interesting concept. River MIGHT just be the ideal weapon to turn loose upon the Reavers, but maybe not, and I'll get to the reasons why in a moment...

3. Reavers - I view them as pack animals, or as similar to certain human cannibalistic tribes. They'll eat their own if it's absolutely necessary, but outsiders are their *preferred* meal. I guess non-Reaver meat is just sweeter, juicier, and more tender... creepy as that sounds. As for why they don't turn on each other, I suppose for the same kinds of reasons that hyenas don't turn on each other very often; they recognize others of their kind, and don't view them as food or as rape-bait.

As for continuin their species, I just don't think they're too worried about that. Sure, they could conceivably keep a few "normal" humans around as a breeding colony, but probably only in the sense that we keep cattle: for food. I think the Reavers are interested in keeping themselves alive, but only really this one generation of Reavers. I don't know if they realize it yet, but I don't think they're going to be breeding more Reavers.

The Alliance seems to believe something similar, from where I'm sitting. They've taken Miranda off the maps and out of the history books, and they disavow any knowledge of the Reavers' existence, probably because they think within one generation the Reavers will die out and cease to be a threat. Hence, it doesn't really make sense to develop River and others as "uber-weapons" only to use them against the Reavers. My feeling is that River was being developed more to spy on other Alliance members (to look for disloyalty), or to be put into circulation as a "sleeper", and possibly be put in contact with die-hard Independent factions in an attempt to locate and destroy such factions before they could cause trouble.

4. Yes, I'm definitely craving Fruity-Oaty goodness. :)

5. The idea was to set River off. The Operative figured such a tussle would get noticed SOMEWHERE, and he (like Mr. Universe) has his ears and eyes everywhere. Set her off, don't worry about the collateral damage, and you'll see where she is, who she's with, and maybe where they're headed and what they're planning.

Again, these are just my takes on your questions. Oh, and welcome to your new home. You'll like it here. We're weird... but in a friendly way! :)

Mike

A baby seal walks into a club...

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:15 AM

ENGINEANGEL

hey anna! welcome welcome!!

if you have the chance come join us in the chat sometime.

now to answer questions:

in regards to the first question, mal said that quote in serenity: the pilot. A lot has changed since then, most for the worse (unfortunatley, that's like usual) and he's under tons of stress. Inara's left the ship, he has this huge problem with river now, and he's still trying to operate under his moral code. That's a lot of stuff to deal with, even under the best of circumstances (which he doesn't have) so eventually something would have to go. There's also the fact that Mal said that to Simon, who's definatley a lot different and definatley a lot better than the operative. I'm thinking he might have seen a difference.

question #2: yes, i myself think river was psychic before the academy. I actually thought that before the river tam vids came out, but they really do confirm it. I think that's one of the reasons they were so eager to have her at the academy - because she had that psychic ability added onto the geniusness. I think they stripped her amygdala because it made her one heck of a fighting machine, and that's really what the allience was trying to make - a fighting machine. and also take what simon said: "She feels everything, she can't not." what would feeling everything mean to a psychic? what would not being able to filter anything out mean to a psychic? It would mean that she would be unstoppable, would be able to hear everyone's moves without giving a second thought to it at all. That kind of ties into the whole "was river psychic before the academy?" question. I think she was a psychic, but less so. By stripping her amygdala, blue sun amplified it signifigantly.

(by the way, if you haven't seen the river tam vids, go here: http://www.session416.com/)

For question #3, there was a thread that was started that kinda encompasses it: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=13774#190129 it's entitled How do Reavers pilot ships, them being insane cannibals and such? It basically gives some ideas, and i think touches on the one you asked. I think they don't eat or kill each other it's the pack mentality. Because they are pack, they stick together and help each other bring a person down for the kill. Wolves don't eat their own kind even though they are carnivores....of course, wolves also wouldn't rape that other wolf to death and then wear it's skin....ah heck i don't know, i'm on a rant now. I think the reavers do fine with each other however, but if ya ask me why, i'll probably just go on another rant again

And i suppose revers could breed and create other reavers if the pax changed their genetic structure or something, just a theory though, i'm also thinking they might just die out.

question #4 - lol, i like this question. i don't have so much a craving for them as much as i have the song stuck in my gorram head. and when you have memorized the whole song.....well....then you have a problem.... lol

question #5 - i think they wanted to set her off so they could find her. If they couldn't find her, then they wouldn't be able to get her and kill her, and they didn't know she was on serenity at that time, had basically no info to go on, except that she was with simon tam (and they didn't know where he was either :P)

hope this helped, and none of the questions were stupid

stay shiny,
EngineAngel

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:50 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

Hello! New member, not super-new to the 'Verse, but new to this here forum.

Welcome

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

In the Serenity movie, what happened to Mal "if I ever shoot you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed" Reynolds during the scene with the Operative in the companion training house? Sure, I know the Operative should be taken out ASAP, but...I don't know, although, I guess he also left a man behind.

Joss changed the character. Originally (I believe) Joss wanted Mal "darker" but F*X told him to tone it down. I'm going to have to agree with F*X on that one. <- Well, that doesn't happen often now does it?

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

River...do you think she was psychic before the Alliance got their hands on her? Or was it only as a result of their meddling?

In the series, it was debatbly if she was psychic or not. In OiS, Mal said something like "or near enough."

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

Why did they strip her amygdala? What good would it do? Give her fear and adrenaline to fight with??
This is probably very stupid, but were River and the others made to combat the Reavers? Or, just made anyway?

Gonna have to ask the Alliance for answer to those questions

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

Speaking of Reavers, since they travel in packs, wouldn't they just start to kill and rape and torture each other? I doubt they have any sort of loyalty amongst themselves. If the Reavers were a result of Miranda, will there ever be more of them, or will they run out? How could they create more? I guess the unfortunate soul left to watch will turn Reaver, but is that enough to sustain the race (for lack of a better word)?

*shrugs* Anything would be speculation. The Reaver societal structure hasn't been explored one bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

...Who here has a craving for fruity oaty bars?

Strangly enough, I am too

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

Oh, actually, that's another thing: why were they broadcasting that ad? Did they WANT to set her off?? I really can't think of any reason, but maybe I'm missing something.

Yes. If they instructed her to cause a massive ruccus, then that would show up in the security feeds and they'd know where she is.

Quote:
Originally posted by Anna:

Anyway, it's mighty nice to be here and to make acquaintance with you folks! I doubt I'll be posting much (of value, at least ) but even from the glimpse I've gotten, I love reading what you all have to say.

Don't think that anything you have to say doesn't have any value. Every different perspective adds to the community.

So, post damn it!!!

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:50 AM

STORYMARK

Just a thought, directed at no-one in particular, regarding the reavers.

What if, the reason they do not eat each other has something to do with the Pax? Operating on such a purely feral level, could it be possible that they avoid each other's flesh because they can taste the Pax in the flesh? It would explain why we didn't see chewed-up bodies all over Miranda as well.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:13 PM

ENGINEANGEL

Quote:
Written by SigmaNunki:
Joss changed the character. Originally (I believe) Joss wanted Mal "darker" but F*X told him to tone it down. I'm going to have to agree with F*X on that one. <- Well, that doesn't happen often now does it?

what you are forgeting, SigmaNunki, is that mal said this in the original pilot (serenity). That is the one that Fox (damn you Fox!!) saw and told Joss to change. In Serenity: the pilot, Mal was how Joss wanted him to be. They filmed that original ep before hand, and it was in the train job that the change was made.

and storymark, wow, that's a cool theory...and it could be true, i like it.

keep flyin'
EngineAngel

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 12:53 PM

TH1RT3EN

Some good questions and answers...My take on the Reavers is this: They are a society unto themselves. Like a cannibalistic tribe with a pack mentality. They are extreemely violent and agressive, (the antithesis of the 'order' of the Alliance) but they still retain knowledge and skills. You could surmise they have some sort of group social order; They pilot and somewhat maintain ships, they coordinate raids and so on...I didn't see any reason that they may not procreate amongst themselves as well. Even the most agressive and violent of species have means to procreate. I'm not sure what Miranda's population was, but if it was 100 million, then you have a significant reaver population to deal with...which could sustain themselves and grow, (at the expense of others of course).

A little suffering is good for the soul...

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:26 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:

what you are forgeting, SigmaNunki,

Saying someones name this way creates a condescending tone. Just pointing that out so you can avoid it in the future

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:

is that mal said this in the original pilot (serenity)

I am aware of the name of the original pilot. And again, saying the name of the episode here again creates a condescending tone.

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:

That is the one that Fox (damn you Fox!!) saw and told Joss to change. In Serenity: the pilot, Mal was how Joss wanted him to be. They filmed that original ep before hand, and it was in the train job that the change was made.

This still doesn't explain the very different character seen in the movie vs the series. Also, I didn't see much of a change between Serenity and The Train Job. None actually.

What exactly did they change about Mal that can be seen in these episodes?

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:43 PM

GIXXER

Chill.

This is Anna's first thread. We don't want to give a bad impression.

I emphatically do not see any condescension. As there are generally a few people involved per thread, it's nice to know to whom the reply is being offered.

Similarly, there's absolutely nothing wrong with referring to Serenity the Pilot, Serenity the Movie or, I hazard, Serenity herself.

I get confused my own self.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 1:56 PM

ENGINEANGEL

sorry, didn't mean for there to be a condesending tone. is just how i write.

Quote:
This still doesn't explain the very different character seen in the movie vs the series. Also, I didn't see much of a change between Serenity and The Train Job. None actually.

What exactly did they change about Mal that can be seen in these episodes?

and it does explain the different character in the movie vs. series...maybe i didn't explain it well, it makes sense in my head, but i can't always get that onto paper. you see, the character in the movie is how joss wanted him to be originally, which is the same as in "serenity the pilot." (i do admit he was harsher in the BDM but that's to be expected when things have started going wrong for a person. as i said in my earlier post, mal has lost inara, has lots of troubles on his mind, is still trying to go through his moral code, and now has a whole heap of new troubles raining down on him. it's enough to make anyone insane, and cause them to become harder and darker) they changed mal in the train job from what he was like in serenity.

and you didn't see any change in mal from serenity to mal from the train job? huh...*shrugs* well, there is a change. i didn't really notice it too much until it was pointed out to me i don't think, but mal is a lot less hard and dark in the train job. he makes a lot more witty jokes, has a brighter outlook on life experience as a whole, he seems to have lost less of his faith as in the pilot. if you watch the pilot and then the train job with this in mind, i'm pretty sure you'll find a difference. (just pointing it out, not trying to sound condesending again

)

i think it also seemed like he was darker in the movie because we had seen him be at ease with his family, his crew, and had watched the series god knows how many times, and had gotten used to that.

well, keep flyin', hope i explained it better this time...
EngineAngel

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:08 PM

MATTCOZ

I decided to do a bit of research on the amygdala, there's actually been a number of studies on the effect of removal on primates, although they say the effect would not be the same in humans. If I find anything useful I'll post it here.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 2:19 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Gixxer:

it's nice to know to whom the reply is being offered.

IMO, that is what the Written by xxxx is for in the quote. Of course if that isn't there, then you are right. The name should be in there. But, there is also how it is put in there. Certain ways have different tones. That's all I was getting at.

Quote:
Originally posted by Gixxer:

Similarly, there's absolutely nothing wrong with referring to Serenity the Pilot, Serenity the Movie or, I hazard, Serenity herself.

This is similar to my previous comment. Saying "Serenity (ep not movie)" is explaining things. But, IMO, putting "the original pilot (Serenity)" to another fan, who would know the name, is condescending.

Especially when this is the first sentence in the post. It sets the tone for the rest.

All I'm saying, is that with such a variety of people here, we should watch how we word things. And if no-one points out some potentially really bad wordings, then nothing improves. Also, if used in an already tense situation, that could start a whole thing that very well could be avoided.

I've seen many flame wars start this way.

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:

sorry, didn't mean for there to be a condesending tone. is just how i write.

No worries

It's just, as I said above, I've seen a lot of flame wars start because of misunderstandings. Just trying to point that out so that people don't misunderstand you and bad things happen. Usually when one of the people involved is having a bad day.

And if all it takes is flipping some words around, little effort, great reward

Just trying to do my part to keep things shiny

Quote:
Originally posted by engineangel:

and you didn't see any change in mal from serenity to mal from the train job? huh...*shrugs* well, there is a change.

...

if you watch the pilot and then the train job with this in mind, i'm pretty sure you'll find a difference.

I'll keep that in mind the next time I watch the series

----
"We're in a giant car heading into a brick wall at 100 miles/hr and everybody's arguing about where they want to sit."
-David Suzuki

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 4:36 AM

ANNA

First and foremost: thank you all so much for such a lovely, warm welcome! I already feel like part of the crew, I really appreciate it :)

All the answers were so interesting to read and I think everything I asked has been answered wonderfully really. I definitely think now that that's why they were playing that ad, to catch River (although wouldn't someone else maybe try to capture her or kill her? But I guess they wouldn't know she was also just an ordinary girl and wouldn't take their chances with a killer, and the Operative probably thought he'd get to her before anyone else would, too).

I also noticed a big change in Mal from the pilot to The Train Job, I remember being baffled the first time I saw it. After watching the series on dvd for so long, I was really taken back when I saw Mal in the BDM again yesterday (heh, just figured out what that [BD_] meant yesterday

), for the first time since it was released (I know, I know, but it only just came out on dvd over here veeeery recently. AND they never played Firefly! Poop). I thought he seemed much harsher, especially to his crew who we know he'd lay down life and limb for - but EngineAngel, I guess you're right that he's just under tons of stress (still, I had to keep telling myself, "You know what he's like in the series, you know what he's like in the series", heh

)

As for stripping River's amygdala, the idea of it meaning that she, as a psychic, couldn't push other people's thoughts away, that she had to feel them, that she'd be like, uber-pyschic, I think that's a fantastic theory and it really makes sense to me. I also think she was always psychic for some reason, maybe that's why she was the star pupil, why she had that edge (or maybe not, I just think she was anyway). I think it's in Objects in Space where Mal calls her a reader? Something about that makes it seem that people are just born with that gift. Alas, I'm rambling.

How long ago was Miranda? (Did I hear somewhere it was around 10-12 years before the BDM's time? Maybe I'm imagining that part)
I'm really starting to think that's why River and the others were created. Think about it: the Alliance f's up, overdoes the PAX in the air on Miranda, turns a fraction of the population into, oh, you know, bloodthirsty tortuous cannibals. Now, if (and I guess I'm smellin' a lotta "if" comin' offa this theory) it was 10-12 years ago, I'm under the impression that it was soon after that they set up the Academy. River can obviously take more than her share of Reavers out - no doubt, the other students can too. River is obviously deeply connected somehow with Miranda...I think it's looking not entirely unplausable that these students were created to destroy the Reavers. (My apologies, I didn't explain it very convincingly, but the theory is there in essence).
Although, another theory for River's link to Miranda, is when our little psychic mei-mei was reviewed by the biggest, most influential and most important figures in the Alliance. She could have read the memory about Miranda from them: hence, perhaps, "It's not mine, this memory isn't mine and I shouldn't have to carry it" (although that could also work with the other idea, the Alliance could have planted it in her brain so she'd know what she was fighting and why, or something).

As for Reavers, StoryMark, that is a great idea about the PAX in the flesh!
Now, I think it's pretty obvious the Alliance won't want to be creating more of these li'l critters. If they really have a pack mentality, they might try to recreate...again, I think it's safe to say they won't be doing this with candlelight and rose-petals. I think sex is out of the question, and anyway, they can't see anything but rape, I'd say. Besides, if they DID have sex and conceive a child, that child would just be a normal human, no? (Then they would probably rape, torture and kill it, no doubt). Maybe slightly different or mutated like other children/fetuses that have been overexposed to a dangerous or harmful gas. Not to mention, the Reavers are so mutilated, I'd be surprised if they still had working reproductive organs.
So I guess that means they will die out.

I think they really should have made fruity oaty bars. It would have been a great marketing technique!

Anyway, thanks again for the wonderful input and the wonderful welcome

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 9:44 AM

DONCOAT

A few comments...

Anna, welcome!

At least a couple of (fan-created) recipes have been posted for Fruity Oaty Bars. So it's entirely possible to make a batch for your own self.

A thought about Reavers: maybe the reason they cut on their own faces is to mark themselves as "off the menu" to other Reavers. This could work in a couple ways. First, it could be like the bright colors on a poisonous frog or insect -- a sign saying "don't eat me!". In those cases it means "don't eat me or you'll get sick". In this case it could mean "don't eat me or I might eat you first".

Or, perhaps Reavers have some innate preference for undamaged prey, so damaging yourself makes you less appetizing to fellow Reavers. Or even yourself (do Reavers have an impulse to take bites of their own flesh?)

Reavers first appeared about 10 years before the BDM (according to Jayne). This fits reasonably well with the fact that Miranda was being colonized just before the war. So reproduction isn't really an issue one way or the other -- if there were 30,000 originally, there would still be plenty around 'now' as long as (1) few have been killed in raids and (2) they don't kill each other. Even if they don't mate or have another way of making more Reavers.

I speculated once that the Pax isn't just a chemical, but a prion (like Mad Cow disease), and that Reavers could make more Reavers by feeding normal people Reaver flesh. I still kinda like that idea.

On the other hand, if Reavers don't/can't reproduce and the Alliance knows that, it's another reason that they might leave them alone. The problem will just go away by itself when they all die off. Once that happens, the Alliance will be correct: Reavers aren't real.

On the gripping hand, the Alliance may *want* to leave the Reavers in play. Gives those pesky independence-minded rim worlds something to keep their minds off rebellion.

Hmmm, rather gruesome topic.

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I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 10:13 AM

ANNA

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
A few comments...

Anna, welcome!

Thank you kindly

Quote:

At least a couple of (fan-created) recipes have been posted for Fruity Oaty Bars. So it's entirely possible to make a batch for your own self.

:O
:O
:O

Fantastic! That's great news! I was just posting in another thread about guerilla marketing, and thinking of these babies. I know I'd be interested! Plus, I'd like to have some for myself. (Hey, they don't make me flip out and kill people

) I wonder if they're made by Blue Sun?

Quote:

On the gripping hand, the Alliance may *want* to leave the Reavers in play. Gives those pesky independence-minded rim worlds something to keep their minds off rebellion.

Ooh, interesting idea. I bet I could tie that in with my theory in that the independant rim-planets don't matter, and the Alliance ones...well, they've got an Academy of defence.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 10:43 AM

ENGINEANGEL

hey anna,
glad you feel welcome!

well, doncoat basically said everything i wanted to say, but i did want to say that i think your second idea is the main thing with river and that the first theory can tie into it.

Quote:
Although, another theory for River's link to Miranda, is when our little psychic mei-mei was reviewed by the biggest, most influential and most important figures in the Alliance. She could have read the memory about Miranda from them: hence, perhaps, "It's not mine, this memory isn't mine and I shouldn't have to carry it" (although that could also work with the other idea, the Alliance could have planted it in her brain so she'd know what she was fighting and why, or something).

she says a lot in that ramble, another part being: "old men covered in blood, i never touched them but i'm drowning in it." this is basically saying that she gleened some memories off of the head guys at blue sun that came to over see her when she was at the academy (and not the warm fluffy kind

) and it also implies that there could be more memmories haunting her brain still.

and i soooooooooooooo agree with you about the fruity oaty bars, hell i would have bought 'em

i like your ideas, and i look forward to seeing your posts more often.

stay shiny,
EngineAngel

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:34 AM

DONCOAT

By the way, Anna, I'd like to point out the incredible resources on this site, beyond the forums.

If you go to the main page and select "Blue Sun Room" from the blue bar near the top, you'll see sections for fanfic (stories set in the 'verse written by fans), filk (music and/or lyrics by fans), and some truly awesome fan art.

I especially recommend opening the fan art section and tracking down the works of one MPhillips, an amazingly talented artist who posts there constantly. And he's just one of many contributors...

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I don't disagree on any particular point.

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:08 PM

ANNA

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
By the way, Anna, I'd like to point out the incredible resources on this site, beyond the forums.

If you go to the main page and select "Blue Sun Room" from the blue bar near the top, you'll see sections for fanfic (stories set in the 'verse written by fans), filk (music and/or lyrics by fans), and some truly awesome fan art.

I especially recommend opening the fan art section and tracking down the works of one MPhillips, an amazingly talented artist who posts there constantly. And he's just one of many contributors...

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I don't disagree on any particular point.

I think I was looking at some of MPhillips' work actually, I was blown away. Really stunning! I'm an artist myself, but nothing even close to that realm of greatness, plus I haven't done anything at all even remotely artistic in god knows how long, haha.

I'll definitely look around this big here virtual ship and get acquainted though, thanks for the heads up

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:15 PM

RAVENHAIR

Wow, I need to bake more brownies with all the newbies showing up!

Welcome *offers a brownie from my quickly emptying plate*

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:32 PM

ANNA

Quote:
Originally posted by Ravenhair:
Wow, I need to bake more brownies with all the newbies showing up!

Welcome *offers a brownie from my quickly emptying plate*

How kind of you! Thank you very much, and it just so happens that brownies are my favourite dessert-y food! Shiny!

I'm really blown away by the kindness here

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Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:45 PM

DONCOAT

It's all a plot.

We act nice to new folks, encourage their budding obsession, and get them to infect all their friends and family with the Firefly virus; they all go out and buy the DVDs, and Universal wises up and gives us a Big Damn Sequel!

That, or there are some genuinely nice folks aboard this ol' rustbucket.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

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