Some questions regarding the movie. SPOILERS INSIDE. by Doffe

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Some questions regarding the movie. SPOILERS INSIDE.

POSTED BY: DOFFE
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:17
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3113
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, March 7, 2006 11:32 PM

Hi,

I still have not figured it out why they needed to kill Wash and Book. To reduce the crew for the second movie?

Wash was nice balance and funny by his pure existence. And Shepred is really a mystery in certain ways.

Keep Flying.
Doffe.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:32 AM

FRUAN

"They" (Joss) didn't 'need' to kill them. Hell, they didn't 'need' to offer the crew any conflict at all - The crew could have sat around enjoying tea and cake for 2 hours.

But that would be dull.

The heart of drama is conflict. Hence the need for antagonists. And even better than conflict is conflict that you believe that the protagonists won't overcome.

Now there's an unfortunate bit of shorthand used in action movies - The death of the close friend. Just when things get tough, someone the Hero knows will die. And he'll get sad about it and then grit his teeth and go on to win. We've all seen this a million times - It's become part of the language of film.

Joss does something very interesting and cool in 'Serenity'; He uses our over exposure to this shorthand against us. Book's death forfils the expected patern - Someone close to the heros dies. And he gets a drawn out death scene with last words and everything. And after that we expect them to win.

But then Joss throws a second death at us. And this time he doesn't hew closely to the expected tropes; Wash dies suddenly, messilly, and without time to gasp out a message and urge everyone on to victory. Book's death is staged according to action movie guidelines, which lulls us, but Wash's death is presented as *real*.

Which is scary. Because if Joss has just changed the rules so that characters can die *real* deaths (as opposed to action movie deaths), then anyone can die. Mal could die. River could die. Anyone. Maybe everyone. Suddenly the climax of the movie *matters*; It isn't just artificial conflict, it is characters we love fighting for their very lives.

And that is why Book and Wash 'needed' to die.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:39 AM

DOFFE

Thanks for the answer. I got the point And see the reason. Next question in that case is if the deaths forfeits the second movie (if there is going to be one?) in our eyes?

Keep flying.
Doffe.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:52 AM

AGENTROUKA

In addition to what Fruan said, they were also both the most expendable (Wash) and most effective in terms of what their death would mean to Mal (Book).

Simon's the doctor that River needs. (Stripped amygdala, etc.)

River's the center of the show's/movie's mythology. If you kill her, you kill half or more of the entire point.

Inara's tied closely too Mal's emotional development, which isn't even half-progressed.

Kaylee's the child of the crew. Killing her would devastate them all in a way that would take away all semblance of victory.

Zoe is the one that keeps things running smoothly. Killing her would devastate Mal too much and mess with too many of his war/life issues that the movie didn't have time to touch on.

Jayne'd death would be too predictable. Plus, he still has too far to go to just kill him off now.

And Mal, well, he's the center of the series and the movie. Can't kill him without shattering the entire premise.

Book's death, however, was a great way to spurn Mal on without taking away any of his future development.

Wash's death killed someone innocent but not too innocent, beloved but not too needed, and it added a fascinating new development for Zoe.

I really can't imagine them choosing to kill someone else, really.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 2:49 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Zoe is the one that keeps things running smoothly. Killing her would devastate Mal too much and mess with too many of his war/life issues that the movie didn't have time to touch on.

Also, if they'd killed Zoe, it would be nigh on impossible to convincingly maintain Wash as comic relief.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:05 AM

ACRAZYIVAN

Not to mention, Wash was (from strictly a crew standpoint-not a friend standpoint) replaceable. Wash is an amazing pilot, but I can't help but figure that having a psychic as a pilot might make their reaction time just a smidge better than Wash's. Plus someone as brilliant as River can figure out the controls so quickly that having to go through flight school and teaching someone how to fly a Firefly aren't needed either.

Keep on flyin'

"We've gotta go to the crappy town where I'm a hero."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:14 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Doffe:
Hi,

I still have not figured it out why they needed to kill Wash and Book. To reduce the crew for the second movie?

Wash was nice balance and funny by his pure existence. And Shepred is really a mystery in certain ways.

No, I do not think the deaths of Book & Wash were simply to reduce the crew size. There were no issues with crew size in the series save the few detractors who claimed nine characters were too many to keep up with in a show. I personally disagree as the entire crew were not "main" characters yet they all came together to make a far more enthralling and enjoyable whole.

Books death drove Mal to do the right thing, the believe in something other than just flying & staying off the Alliance radar. Book's death does not end the mystery of his past, just makes it all that more dark & mysterious.

Wash's death was Joss' way of showing the audience just how serious the battle scene w/ the Reavers was at the end of the film. As Joss said in a recent interview, if no one had died we would have all been sitting there in the theatre saying "Wow, they are shooting". With the death of Wash we had it driven home just how much danger the crew were in & that no one was safe. We sat on the edge of our seats for the last part of the movie hoping no one else died, cringing & wringing our hands every time another crew member was wounded. Remember how you felt when Zoe went down from the sword strike to the back by the Reaver? Remember how it kicked you in the stomach when Inara got tackled by the reaver, when Jayne was shot & fell, when Kaylee was hit by those strange glowing darts, or when Simon was shot in the gut? Those emotions, that anxiety, that fear of another character dying all stemmed from Joss making the tough call in sacrificing Wash. Had he not died & everyone lived through the Reaver encounter it would have made the battle scene & the end of the movie too cliche.

I know we don't like saying goodbye to Wash & Book, but such is life. People come & go, some before their time, but part of living is to accept death and move past it. We have to say goodbye and keep flying.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:16 AM

CBY

Quote:
Originally posted by Doffe:
Next question in that case is if the deaths forfeits the second movie (if there is going to be one?) in our eyes?

Yes. And I am afraid Universal know that as well

°°°°°°°°°°°°
http://www.byond-trax.com - my selfmade ambient/lounge/chillout music
www.botttos.de/mphillips/Packs.htm - mphillips 100 in 1 Packs

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 3:22 AM

DOFFE

Quote:
Originally posted by CBY:
Quote:
Originally posted by Doffe:
Next question in that case is if the deaths forfeit the second movie (if there is going to be one?) in our eyes?

Yes. And I am afraid Universal know that as well

But on the other hand in the series they are pretty well off. So let's do the series. :)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 4:02 AM

MICJWELCH

I suggest listening to the director's commentary for Serenity. I don't usually like people talking over the movie (I think there's a special place reserved even for the directors who do it), but in this case I make an exception. Joss gets to explain a lot of what happened in the movie. Give him a chance to defend himself. And he even points out every single little screw up in the movie. :-)

"We may experience some slight turbulence, and then... explode."

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 4:07 AM

DOFFE

Quote:
Originally posted by micjwelch:
I suggest listening to the director's commentary for Serenity. [...] Joss gets to explain a lot of what happened in the movie. Give him a chance to defend himself.

I will as soon as my gorram DVD arrives. It takes ages for amazon.co.uk to deliver to Sweden.

Keep flying.
Doffe.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:35 AM

AGENTROUKA

Quote:
Originally posted by Doffe:
Next question in that case is if the deaths forfeits the second movie (if there is going to be one?) in our eyes?

Hardly. :)

We still have seven very cool characters left, and the deaths of Book and Wash do nothing to affect the majority of the relationships among most of them.

Lots of room for fascinating character explorations.

Plus, the plot of the movie left a lot of options for a sequel. It's a vast 'verse, after all.

I don't understand, how should the loss of Wash and Book prevent a sequel?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:45 AM

STEAMER

Well, my view is, Wash was one of the most (if not THE most) lovable characters on the show and to kill him off was to kill off part of the series itself. Ever since I first saw the movie I haven't been able to shake the feeling that the character deaths played some part in the movie's woeful box-office performance. That's not to say it was a bad film, it had damn well better get four stars from TV Guide. But even though Uncle Joss can hardly be criticised for telling the story the way he wants, there may well have been at least a few fans who were dismayed enough to be dissuaded from seeing it again.

~

"We'll pass through it soon enough."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 11:56 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Steamer:
But even though Uncle Joss can hardly be criticised for telling the story the way he wants, there may well have been at least a few fans who were dismayed enough to be dissuaded from seeing it again.

Well, possibly... but it wasn't *this* fan.

I saw the BDM in the theater more than any other movie, ever. By quite a wide margin. Second place probably goes to 2001: A Space Odyssey, but Serenity has it beat by at least 2x, even though 2001 was released some 35 years earlier.

And then I went to Flanvention, my first fan convention of any flavor. So the BDM did nothing but fan my browncoat flames.

(Hmmm, that's not really the best imagery, is it? *DonCoat runs down the street with his jacket afire, yelling for someone to turn a garden hose on him*)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't disagree on any particular point.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 8, 2006 12:17 PM

SAB39

I can tell you why *I* didn't see the BDM in theaters.

Because gorram SciFi channel didn't finish showing all the ruttin' episodes until after Serenity was done playin' in theaters!

I ain't like to see a movie if I ain't yet seen all that leads up to it...

(yes, *now* I own the DVDs, but at the time I didn't... and knowing what I know now about the importance of the box office performance, I have regrets on that score my own self...)

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE