Evil Firefly Haters by Succatash

I found the article a highly entertaining parody of an insecure idiot. It was very realistic in that regard. I especially liked the part where he thinks Fox is making the movie...or the way he thinks a television show, or even a movie has some dangerous potential to sway his pet political concerns. Kudos to the author. Write more!

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 9:57 AM

Disturbing quotes:

"Tell them you think a Firefly film is bad idea if our country is to evolve, culturally and spiritually, away from the more negative aspects of our history."

"So what I propose is this: Write to Fox and offer to buy $5.00 worth of Simpsons merchandise as an act of good faith, and promise that when Fox publicly announces that there will be no Firefly film (or return of the series, or sale of it to another network) you will purchase an additional $5.00 worth of Simpsons merchandise. To Fox this will be the same financially as if you went to see the Firefly movie, plus they won't actually have to make one. A fair deal all around, wouldn't you say?

Your sample email to Fox:

To: feedbackus@fox.com
From: (you)
Subject: Firefly - Just Say No
As a concerned citizen with an interest in historical accuracy, I strongly urge you not to produce, finance, or in any way support the creation of a film version of the cancelled series Firefly.
To support your efforts to provide me with quality entertainment, I promise to spend $5.00 on Simpsons merchandise now, and $5.00 more when you publicly announce that there will be no further development of the Firefly franchise.
Thanks for your time and attention.

Sincerely,
(your name here)"

It's almost funny, but... not really.

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 9:57 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Well, someone really smart, whose name I am too lazy to look up, once said: "If you can't annoy someone with what you write, there's little point in writing it." It's one of the things that I love so much about Joss Whedon: His shows are remarkably good at pissing off people that really deserve to be pissed off.

Riiiiight. Joss Whedon's a racist. Which is why he has an interracial couple and two black actors on the show. In comparison to other other races, blacks are, if anything, over represented on Firefly.

That and he seems to miss the fact that Firefly is inspired by a paticular period in American History, but it's not a direct allegory.

Moron.

________________

XANDER: “Dis-a-ssem-bled.” That means when he's broken down into all his little buggy parts.
CORDELIA: I know what it means, dork head.
XANDER: Dork head? You slash me with your words!

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:02 AM

One of the Civil War experts from FFF could maybe contact the guy, or maybe it's best to ignore him.

www.ratsalad.com - It's right on the home page, and has been since July:
Help prevent Firefly: The Motion Picture

Dear God in Heaven!

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:24 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
One of the Civil War experts from FFF could maybe contact the guy, or maybe it's best to ignore him.

www.ratsalad.com - It's right on the home page, and has been since July:
Help prevent Firefly: The Motion Picture

Dear God in Heaven!

I second Tash and add that maybe, while he or she is at it, call him a chowderhead.

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:24 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

I vote for ignoring this prat. It doesn't look like that's a very well trafficed site.

Writing letters to Miramax in support of the FF movie might not be a bad idea, though

________________

DAV: Does this sweater make me look fat?
SUNDAY: No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat. The sweater makes you look purple.

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:31 AM

I think we should invite him to #firefly.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:48 AM

STEVEP99999

Gorramit that guys warped and he's stalking Adam.

5. And this email from hunky Firefly costar Adam Baldwin.

That email link goes here.

http://forums.prospero.com/foxfirefly/messages?msg=4235.194190

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 12:04 PM

We need to form an angry mob, with torches and picthforks and everything. I always wanted to be in an angry mob.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:20 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Livingimpared is right, just ignnore the guy (If he doesn't go away we can form an angry mob later).

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 1:48 PM

Sarge seems to think this guy is joking, or at least using Firefly in order to make a living as a satirist.

Sarge, do you think the author is being serious? Do you believe he is truly against Firefly?

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I think we should invite him to #firefly.

The author would last 5 seconds in IRC #firefly (etherstorm.net).

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 2:34 PM

KAYTHRYN

Yep, that picture looks about right. There's a lot of sexy black leather, high boots... a couple whips.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 3:20 PM

TRAGICSTORY

One word for that site: DDS.

-----------
"Societies are supported by human activity, therefore they are constantly threatened by the human facts of self-intrest and stupidity." --Peter Berger

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 6:08 PM

OUTLANDER

I find it hilariously funny that this guy is telling people to e-mail FOX, when Universal now owns the rights and is the studio that's producing the movie (An obvious sign of intelligence). It's amazing just how badly some people (with no sense of hummer) react to Joss Whedon shows

Don't they realise that there is more character development and story arcs in Buffy than there is in all five Star Trek series’ combined.

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:39 PM

FLYFIREFLY

I think if you just look at who this Zaza person is :stupid - well, this whole tread dies as irelevant.

http://www.ratsalad.com/about.htm

That's it, Firefly rules !

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 10:58 PM

PEG

I find it interesting that he has such a distorted view of history. Not to mention the scene he refered to doesn't actually involve a rape; as opposed to shows like NYPD Blue, Law and Order, which are a lot more graphic about rape and assults. Some people need to find something to rant about. Personally I think he should be ignored, he's not worth getting worked up about.

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Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:24 PM

KLEPTO

I don't post here much, but this got me pissedified! Have to say that guy can rot in my bung.

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 12:16 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by peg:

Not to mention the scene he refered to doesn't actually involve a rape; as opposed to shows like NYPD Blue, Law and Order, which are a lot more graphic about rape and assults.

Good point, peg. Having a cold-blooded, evil man talking about rape in a scary way is not like showing it. It wasn't prurient, and it certainly wasn't "violent pornography."

He's also misleading when he says

Quote:
Jubal Early doesn’t just say "I'm going to rape you to death," he actually has two rather long speeches in which he describes how he's going to do it and making it very clear that Kaylee "will die weeping."

I assume that's a reference to these two lines by Early:

Quote:
EARLY [to Kaylee]:
You throw a monkey wrench into my dealings in any way, your body is forfeit. Ain't nothing but a body to me. And I can find all unseemly manner of use for it. Do you understand?

Quote:
EARLY [to Simon]:
Or, you refuse to help me, I shoot your brain out, then I go upstairs and spend some time violatin' the little mechanic I got trussed-up in the engine room. I take no pleasure in the thought, but she will die weeping if you cross me.

That's a rather vague description if you ask me, and certainly not pornographic.

He's also upset that this is on during the Family Hour (8-9 p.m. ET), which he incorrectly equates with Prime Time (8-11 p.m. ET).

Yes, Firefly didn't belong in the Family Hour, but that's Fox's fault not Firefly's. Plus Fox, not being a full network, doesn't even have a 10-11 p.m. ET slot (where NYPD Blue and its ilk air). However, I don't see any problem with Firefly in the 9-10 p.m. ET slot of Prime Time (except perhaps for a bit of War Stories torture).

Finally, back to history.

Quote:
[from campaign] As a concerned citizen with an interest in historical accuracy, I strongly urge you not to produce, finance, or in any way support the creation of a film version of the cancelled series Firefly.

A fictional show set 500 years in the future is supposed to be historically accurate?

I'll skip his, for lack of a better term, black and white view of Civil War history because it's not even relevant to the show. The future Independents are not the past Confederates. He's seen Objects in Space but apparently skipped over Shindig, where Mal is clearly against slavery.

Ying/
Firefly Funsite
NEW URL - http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 3:23 PM

I would like Willie Zaza to post here and provide us with some more information. I'd like to hear what he has to say.

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 4:47 PM

Once again Tash, I have to disagree.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 5:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I found the article...highly entertaining...Kudos to the author. Write more!

I think we should invite him to #firefly.

SergeantX

What are you disagreeing about, Sarge?

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 5:58 PM

Yes, but that's not exactly the same as wanting to hear what he has to say, eh?

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 6:10 PM

BLACKSTAR

Not to mention, Succatash, he already wrote a page and a half on what he has to say, and I think we can all agree that it was enough.
Dissention? No? Good. Case closed.

Oh, my God! Who's flying this thing? Oh, right, that would be me...

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:25 PM

DUNDEE

this dumbass is prolly the same kinda person who is bussy watching some reality tv show right now. "101 people who have swollowed hammers" perhaps? this guy isnt worth our time.

in the words of Jayne: "how bout you all just say a prayer as we slide on by"

Dear diary, Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy,
Today we where kidnapped my hill folk never to be seen again, it was the best day ever.

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 8:59 PM

SCOTTI

I have to admit something here, and I'm sure it will bring many flamers to swing their guns around on me: this guy is an excellent writer.

That being said, his take on Firefly is, of course, definitely skewed. He makes many assumptions and claims that are, in simple terms, wrong. Not to mention, amazingly obtuse.

On the positive side, I also have to point out that once again, Firefly has brought out strong emotions in yet another person. They may not be emotions we understand or agree with, but this guy does feel passionate about the subject, doesn't he?

Overall, I would echo the sentiment of "ignore the troll". His writing talents aside, he appears to have a LOT more time in his pathetic existence to hate Firefly, than we have to love it, and argue with him about it.

To each his own; let him continue to wallow in self-importance.

==============================================
Mal: You are very much lacking in imagination.
Zoe: I imagine that's so, sir.

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Sunday, September 28, 2003 10:11 PM

Scotti,

No flame here, you're a browncoat and I'll happily respect your opinions, but I'm curious - Exactly how is his writing 'excellent'? I tried to read some of the other stuff on his page but it was just kind of painful. Not in that his witty barbs offended me, but that his aimless meandering rants just didn't really add up to much besides unfocused resentment. Maybe I just didn't get it.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Monday, September 29, 2003 1:55 AM

LIVINGIMPAIRED

Quote:
Originally posted by Scotti:
I have to admit something here, and I'm sure it will bring many flamers to swing their guns around on me: this guy is an excellent writer.

Not a flame here, but:

The ability to make a provocative claim does not make a good writer. I could call people that... uh, believe in God "illogical prats," which would offend many people, but saying that doesn't make me a good writer. A good writer can take a claim that is disputed and make a logical, valid argument that is resistant to criticism. This troll's entire thesis rests on distorted or false facts, and his paper is rambling and unorganized.

A better example: after September 11, Jerry Farwell was quoted as saying that the terrorist attacks were because of the feminists, homosexuals, and I honestly forget what the third groups was, but the point is the whole thing was inflammatory. Now most any rational person would have to take issue with that statement--regardless of their position on feminism or homosexuality--simply because there is the same amount of evidence connecting gays and feminists to terrorism as there is evidence connecting leprechauns to sunspots. Jerry Farwell is provocative, but he's still a bigoted prat.

________________

SPIKE: Oh listen to Mary Poppins! Got his crust all stiff and upper with that nancy-boy accent. You Englishmen are always so -- Bloody hell… Sodding blimy shagging knickers bullocks -- oh no. I'm English.
GILES: Welcome to the nancy tribe.

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Monday, September 29, 2003 4:19 AM

OK, let me start by saying, I am a born-again, more or less, conservative Christian. (If I'm breaking a rule or a taboo here, sorry) The only reason I say this is because "we" often get lumped in with folk like the "person" who posted that letter.

Now the reason this post drops right after the Fallwell comment is not intentional, but left me say, Fallwell was wrong.

I love Firefly. I love the action, I love the characters. I dig the lingo and the "Chinese swearing." One of my fav episodes is Our Mrs. Renyolds. My wife and I love that episode & all the others. No it's not a "family" show. Who ever said it was supposed to be. But it is a great show. In my opinion the best that was ever on TV. Sure, there are aspects that go beyond "family oriented", but it's not a "family show". If I have kids in my house we watch Veggie Tales, not Firefly.

I love the spiritual aspects of Firefly. They are some of the best spiritual truths presented on TV. I especially like the character Book. I appreciated the fact that he swore in "War Stories" I would have too. My Pastor says, "The most anointed men of God have feet of clay" My heart especially goes out to Mal. He is a man who has lost his faith. He is incomplete without it. A good portion of Firefly is about his redemption.

He says, "You're allowed on my boat, God ain't" Not because he doesn't believe in God, but because he feels God has let him down. A man who truly doesn't believe in God, can't feel hurt or let down by Him. You can't see this more than when you watch the 2 part pilot "Serenty" The whole split second of Mal kissing his cross, just floored me. His faith in God was strong, he wasn't kissin no good luck charm. He had faith.

There we're many Confederates that had a strong faith in God, and history reveals most of them we're of stronger spiritual character than a goodly portion of the Union. I would assume after they lost the war many of them too lost their faith in God.

And if we want to get into the idea of "idolizing criminals" By their revolt against an opressive England most of our "Founding Fathers" we're considered criminals.

What am I trying to say?

Firefly, should be kept flying because it is a "good" show. It teaches good principles, about "family, faith, honor, justice, real love, devotion, commitment & redemption" the list here could go on and on

as for our "friend the writer". get past the medium and recognize the message, or take Joss' advice and realize "It's just a TV show, morons" The choice is yours.

Keep flying!

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Monday, September 29, 2003 5:17 AM

JBIRD

If that wasn't so pathetic,it would have been amusing.

I love Firefly,I can't wait for the movie and whats-his-names sad ramblings aren't going to change that.

Jbird

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Monday, September 29, 2003 6:40 AM

SPACEANGLER

I thought the article was pretty funny, up until the point where he said there shouldn't be a Firefly movie. That thing with the family around the TV was hilarious.

Oh, and the third group Falwell blamed was Pagans.

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Monday, September 29, 2003 6:50 AM

I think the author's use of footnotes is funny. It gives the article the appearance of a serious essay, but he just uses the footnotes to toss in a few more insults.

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Monday, September 29, 2003 9:19 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

I was going to add quotes from the article, then thought why give this guy the extra attention?

Apparently Zaza (Zaza?) doesn't live south of the Mason Dixon, or know anyone who has family there. I live in Minnesota and even I know that the minute the South lost the "War Between the States" they made it immortal. Let's consider all the tourist income received from the old battlefield tours, shall we?

Who's going to tell Universal that Fox is making the movie instead of them?

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Monday, September 29, 2003 9:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Who's going to tell Universal that Fox is making the movie instead of them?

.....must......quit.....laughing

Mal: “See how I'm not punching him? I think I've grown!”

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Monday, September 29, 2003 9:44 AM

SARAHETC

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:

Apparently Zaza (Zaza?) doesn't live south of the Mason Dixon, or know anyone who has family there. I live in Minnesota and even I know that the minute the South lost the "War Between the States" they made it immortal. Let's consider all the tourist income received from the old battlefield tours, shall we?

The phrase you're looking for is "War of Northern Aggression." I think he'd be helped too, if he channeled some Bugs Bunny American history. "The Yankees! They're in... Chattanooga!" (ack!)

And, like Tash, I was really amused by his footnotes-- particularly that number five comes before number four.

I'm a dying breed who still believes, haunted by American dreams. ---Neko Case

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Monday, September 29, 2003 9:48 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Sarahetc:
The phrase you're looking for is "War of Northern Aggression." I think he'd be helped too, if he channeled some Bugs Bunny American history. "The Yankees! They're in... Chattanooga!" (ack!)

I stand corrected. But then I'm a Yankee (genetically if not geographically) no forgivin' that, is there?

And as to our friend who seems to enjoy revisionist history, I would like to quote Bugs Bunny in honor of the fair Sara -

"Whadda Maroon!"

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Monday, September 29, 2003 1:48 PM

RATSALAD

Hi, this is John, editor of ratsalad.com. Obviously the recent Firefly article on the site has stirred up some controversy here. (I can also tell that from my inbox which has contained some rather upset messages!)

I am not the author of the piece - and I must admit I have never seen an episode of Firefly. I would be glad to add errata to the original article and to include some discussion here on our letters page. Please feel free to mail me offline about those issues.

Several people mention that the correct movie studio should be Universal and not 20th Century Fox. That certainly undercuts the Simpsons argument in the sample letter

and should be corrected.

Here are replies to a few of the individual posts on this thread:

***
From Tragicstory:
I guess Zaza has a problem with fact that slavery WAS NOT the main reason for the Civil War, no more than the Holocaust was for WWII.
***
Ratsalad:
Hmm, we'll have to agree to disagree about this (causus belli of the Civil War). FWIW, I found BATTLE CRY OF FREEDOM by James McPherson to be a very readable and convincing one volume history of that war.
***
From Tragicstory:
For some reason McVeigh the NORTHERNER is tied in with the "evil south)
***
Ratsalad:
I believe the point he was trying to make is comparable to Gray Davis's recent discussion of what's happening in California. I.E., the obligation of citizens to respect the results of legitimate results of the democratic process rather than attempt to change or bypass them via another method.
***
From Livingimpaired:
Riiiiight. Joss Whedon's a racist. ... That and he seems to miss the fact that Firefly is inspired by a paticular period in American History, but it's not a direct allegory.
***
Ratsalad:
I don't think either of those claims specifically are made in the article. The first one would be grounds for libel anyway.
***
From Peg:
... the scene he refered to doesn't actually involve a rape;
From Ffying2:
Having a cold-blooded, evil man talking about rape in a scary way is not like showing it. It wasn't prurient, and it certainly wasn't "violent pornography."
***
Ratsalad:
True. There was definitely some hyperbole on the part of the writer.
***
From Ffying2:
A fictional show set 500 years in the future is supposed to be historically accurate?
***
Ratsalad:
The article doesn't make that claim, exactly ... the argument is that, if Firefly was inspired by US history, then some of the parallels which can be drawn are from a strongly (and arguably covertly?) pro-Confederate perspective.
***
From Channain:
Apparently Zaza (Zaza?) doesn't live south of the Mason Dixon, or know anyone who has family there.
***
Ratsalad:
False. Virginia, actually.
***
From Sarahetc.:
I was really amused by his footnotes-- particularly that number five comes before number four.
***
Ratsalad:
Whups! Editorial screwup - all mine! Fixed now, thanks.

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Monday, September 29, 2003 1:57 PM

MANIACNUMBERONE

If any bad stuff happens to Firefly at Universal as a result of ratsalad, I say we all blame Tash.

-------------------------------------------
Inara: Who's winning?
Simon: I can't really tell, they don't seem to be playing by any civilized rules that I know.
-------------------------------------------

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Monday, September 29, 2003 2:02 PM

I did invite RatSalad to post here, and I would like to thank Editor John for his professional, well-mannered post.

He's invited our input, let's do more than just name bash. Firefly is on trial! Who will speak for us?

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Monday, September 29, 2003 2:07 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

Thanks for braving the storm and addressing some of these, RS. I think it was very courageous to jump into a potentially hostile environment and address these things point by point. Very thoughtful.

Hey, reasonable people sometimes disagree. Hotheads draw swords at dawn.

History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Monday, September 29, 2003 3:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ratsalad:
Hi, this is John, editor of ratsalad.com. Obviously the recent Firefly article on the site has stirred up some controversy here. (I can also tell that from my inbox which has contained some rather upset messages!)

I am not the author of the piece - and I must admit I have never seen an episode of Firefly. I would be glad to add errata to the original article and to include some discussion here on our letters page. Please feel free to mail me offline about those issues.

That, has gained my respect. Gotta say, we do take our show very seriously.

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Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:18 AM

MYSTIC511

My friend sent me this link, and I had to respond (i've been lurking and reading topics, everyone has very intelligent things to say, never really had a need to throw in my two cents).

First thing I want to throw out:
Obviously there are many sci-fi shows out there. The definition of sci-fi pretty much means that things are going to be in space. Just because there are 10+ shows out there with spaceships and adventuring does not mean the idea has been done. There's only so much you can do under the sci-fi genre. The originality argument is therefore thrown out as a point in Zaza's article.

Space-westerns have been done in Anime for years. Cowboy Bebop and Trigun are just two examples of the flavor. To me, firefly was just a live action version of these creative shows. This also goes under the originality issue, but I've already thrown that out.

I'd like to entertain the confederacy argument, even though I don't think it holds any water. When I first watched firefly, I never once thought of the heroes being like confederates. It must take a really troubled spirit, or a very anal retentive one to go through all the trouble to dig up examples of why Joss Whedon is a confederate sympathizer.

Actually, I more so believed that they were rebels fighting off an imperialistic government that was on a mission to turn everyday people into mind slaves. If anything, it's more of an argument to say that they are rebels fighting off a government like present day America's where corporations gain more and more power everyday and normal people have less and less of a say in what direction the country goes.

So were the Star Wars Rebels just confederates when they fought against the Empire? Just dig into some other 'original' sci-fi series where they fight against a supreme dominating power and ask if they symbolized confederacy.

Wow, look at that, i just knocked out 60% of his argument with three short paragraphs.

What's left?

Concerning the two hour season premiere filled with rape. Obviously, being raped to death is not a motif in the series, as anyone who watched all the episodes would gladly agree with.

I will give Mister Zaza the nod that it may have been a little disconcerting to have such a statement made in the season premiere, more conservative families may have been scared away by it.

And the argument about the actors not acting real or speaking the dialect/slang properly: That's an opinion so it can't realy be argued against. I'm mandarin chinese myself, and I thought it was absolutely brilliant that they cursed in mandarin. It was no where near the proper speech or inflections, but hey, A for effort on trying something new.

I will agree with one thing that Zaza said. Write to Fox and Universal. Let them know that there is support for a firefly movie and even a revival of the series. Like Zaza said, if they believe there can be money made off of it, they'll do it.

Obviously Zaza'z article holds no real sway over the country's entertainment audience, but it does serve as an example of what could happen if we sit back and do nothing to support what we like.

Thank you very much for reading. Hope to see you opening night in the theatres, watching Firefly with all the other confederates and rapists.

One day I will become Virtually Infamous.
http://www.virtuallyinfamous.com

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Tuesday, September 30, 2003 11:21 AM

AERUNDEL

That article made my head hurt. After about the fourth paragraph of Civil War rant, without a single "Firefly" tagged in, I just had to go "What the H3LL is this guy talking about?" I'm not even going to begin to pretend what the Civil War was really about, I'm just trying to figure out how this guy pulled all that out of his

when men wearing blue gloves are melting people's brains with a glowstick

Talk about reading in too deep (or just being ridiculous)

http://www.virtuallyinfamous.com (Contributor)

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Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:56 PM

JARHEAD

Hey, reasonable people sometimes disagree. Hotheads draw swords at dawn.

Okay, I have to ask... why wait?

Oh, and the third group Falwell blamed was Pagans.

Which is of course, a motorcycle group...

Why fight fair when you can win.

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Wednesday, October 1, 2003 4:26 AM

SPACEANGLER

Quote:
Oh, and the third group Falwell blamed was Pagans.

Which is of course, a motorcycle group...

You stole that joke from Lewis Black. But that's okay.

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Wednesday, October 1, 2003 5:12 AM

JARHEAD

YESS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most times people don't get my refferences. Love Lewis, he kicks ass.

On the subject of Falwell, I'm going to to something unprecedented on this thread. I'm going to attempt a defense of the loudmouth.

1. If you believe in the God of the Bible, and a) believe that both testaments are still valid
b) have read up on the subject he was reffering to after 911... Then it's quite possible that he was right. There were an awful lot of times that God lifted his hand of protection over the Jews after they had let their society fall in the decadence of the civilizations around them.

2. I'm not entirely sure why, maybe I heard it somewhere or something, but on my heart has been the prase His thoughts are not our thoughts. And while I'm not sure if Falwell was right, I do now that salvation is unconditional if simply asked for, but God's blessings such as protection are very conditional.

3. Heaven will be full of surprises. Nuff said.

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Wednesday, October 1, 2003 5:39 AM

"Nothing worse than a monster that thinks he's right with god"

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Wednesday, October 1, 2003 6:52 AM