Lucas Vs. Whedon by NEEDY

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Lucas Vs. Whedon

POSTED BY: NEEDY
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 08:34
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5664
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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:02 AM

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions

This may have been posted here before, but in case it hasn't (or you missed it), here's a strip featuring George Lucas talking about Serenity:

http://www.popcornpicnic.com/serenity.htm

You should check out the other comics too - they're all related to current movies, and some of them star Marlon Brando and E.T. (yes, its odd but still funny)

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Needy. Male Companion a.k.a. First Boy Whore of Destiny
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www.myspace.com/needsalt

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:12 AM

JOSSISAGOD

" I dunno, but I'm gonna need a baseball bat and a new T.V." ROFL!BWAHhahahaha! That strip was incredible! Since watching the Star Wars prequals, I have lost my respect for G.L. Thanks for posting this!

JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:14 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD

Interesting comic. I would have to say if the two got into a creative showdown Joss would win the day by a land slide, perhaps i'm a bit biased

. Mostly due to Lucas's inability to write dialogue (need I say more?). Joss is smart about his writing and will do things unpredictable which keeps in intensity. I don't think Star Wars has the same emotional response that FF?Serenity has. Serenity didn't have that fairy tale ending that ROTJ had. Plus no good guys died that we even cared about.
IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:32 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

ROFLMAO!

Great stuff.

__________________________________________

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Richmond, VA & surrounding area Firefly Fans:

http://tv.groups.yahoo.com/group/richmondbrowncoats/

http://www.richmondbrowncoats.org

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 7:37 AM

NEEDY

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
Interesting comic. I would have to say if the two got into a creative showdown Joss would win the day by a land slide, perhaps i'm a bit biased . Mostly due to Lucas's inability to write dialogue (need I say more?). Joss is smart about his writing and will do things unpredictable which keeps in intensity. I don't think Star Wars has the same emotional response that FF?Serenity has. Serenity didn't have that fairy tale ending that ROTJ had. Plus no good guys died that we even cared about.
IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

I grew up watching the Star Wars films and I love them to bits. I'm also one of the few that thinks Jedi is better than Empire
I don't have a problem with happy endings (though in the original ending, apparently Lando and his funny-faced co pilot didn't make it out of the death star before it blew), and in my heart Jedi is one of my all time favourite movies
Serenity is a different type of movie - yes you can compare them, but I don't think its fair as Serenity is a more grown up, darker movie, whereas Star Wars is intended for people of all ages. It's like comparing the original Batman tv series with Batman Begins - they're two very different creatures

Though the prequels have made it blatantly obvious that Lucas should not have handled the moves by himself - he cannot write realistic dialogue, nor give the needed direction. To add to this, his over-use of CGI led to some less-than-stellar performances.
both Empire and Jedi were written and directed by people other than Lucas. There you have it.

As for Star Wars not having the same emotional response as Serenity... well I'd have to disagree there.
I think there are a lot of emotions on display during Han being frozen in carbonite, and Luke being told the truth by Darth in Empire, and the brilliant moment near the end of Jedi when Luke really lets loose on Vader after the mention of his sister. This scene alone, along with the remarkable music by John Williams, always sends a chill up my spine.

On the other hand, as much as I love Serenity, I never felt the same way. I went through all the emotions - shocked, sad, at the edge of my seat at one point and laughing the next... but I never got that same chill, the same emotional resonanace that I did watching Luke duel with his father.

Thats not to say that Jedi or Serenity is better than the other, but that they are - IMO - two very different movies. One is a darkish character piece, and the others modern fairy tales

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Needy. Male Companion a.k.a. First Boy Whore of Destiny
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www.myspace.com/needsalt

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 8:36 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by NEEDY:
Thats not to say that Jedi or Serenity is better than the other, but that they are - IMO - two very different movies. One is a darkish character piece, and the others modern fairy tales

This is so true -- and it's also hard to subjectively compare movies which you initially saw thirty years apart.

While I know there is no movie I've ever watched 5 times in 3 days (as I did with the "Serenity" DVD -- of course, there weren't DVDs or even VCRs when "Star Wars" came out), "Star Wars" changed the face of not only sci-fi, but of nearly all films made after it came out.

I enjoy the characters (most of them) in "Serenity" more than any characters in fiction I've seen anywhere in recent years (perhaps decades), and the humor of "Serenity" certainly outshines "Star Wars" (which had its humorours moments, but which cannot compare to "Serenity"). "Serenity" is also more of a believably reastistic world, in my opinion -- lacking in aliens and super powers.

However, I can still recall what "Star Wars" did to me and nearly everyone of my generation. Firstly, it put sci-fi back on the map (after it had virtually died for more than a decade) -- making way for the resurgence of "Star Trek", and all other sci-fi (and even every superhero film) which came after it.

"Star Wars" was the first film I'd ever gone to see more than once in a theatre -- actually 7 times (and two viewings in a row on a single day) -- I saw the original three episodes for a total of more than 20 screenings when they initially came out.

"Star Wars" also changed the way movies were viewed in relation to merchandising. Toys would never be the same after "Star Wars" -- not to mention "non-toy" merchandising, as well.

"Star Wars" did to the field of special effects what the transistor did to a world which previously utilized tubes. No more guys an space craft suspended by wires, pretending to fly. No more (or at least very little) miniatures.

"Star Wars" also brought competent musical scores back to films, which had been lacking for quite some time. In addition, and perhaps most notably, "Star Wars" brought back the good, old adventure film, after a decade and a half of
sharp-edged realism (which in my opinon also sucked -- I don't pay to go and see realism in a theatre; if I wanted "realism", I'd look out my window). Suddenly, it was fun to go to the movies again.

People who were born (or grew up) after "Star Wars" don't realize how different movies were in the 60's and early 70's. It's not as easy for them to grasp how it changed the face of movies over the past 30 years in so many ways.

I'm sure Joss Whedon would be the first to admit there never would've been a "Serenity" if not for "Star Wars".

That being said, I think the prequels were a let down. Were they "bad" films? No. But, then (in my opinion) they never could've lived up to the originals, because the originals forever changed the face of sci-fi and films, in general. Those are big shoes to fill.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 9:59 AM

NEEDY

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions

Cartoon - whilst I didn't grow up in the 60s and 70s, in fact I was born in '83 so I wasn't able to even see the original SW movies when they were released, but there were a handful of films I would watch almost daily: Back to the Future, Three Amigos (though to a lesser extent) and yes the Star Wars trilogy. So not only can I practically quote every line of these, they hold a special place in my heart - made all the more clearer that despite knowing every inch of it, I still thoroughly enjoy them every time I watch them

I had a LOAD of star wars toys (toys which I stupidly sold away before I realised their potential value) and some of the comics

I would say that Star Wars got me into sci-fi, but since I can remember watching them from such a young age, its hard to be sure whether I'd enjoy the genre anyway if I'd never seen the trilogy

But Star Wars was no small cult thing, it defined a generation. Whilst I'm not saying Firefly/Serenity doesnt have the same potential, Star Wars, in being family friendly was and still is far more accessible than our BDM which is in all honesty a bit too violent for kiddies.
SW has a childlike innocence to it too (even though its not always an upbeat story at times) that lets you enjoy it for its fun and comedy... or if you want more, you can appreciate the story of heroes and villains, or the redemption of a father... there's so much to take from it

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Needy. Male Companion a.k.a. First Boy Whore of Destiny
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www.myspace.com/needsalt

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:14 AM

ISAACSHEPHERD

Needy,
You make some very good points in your last post. Reguarding the emotional level in star wars it wasn't enough for me. You are right, there were some moments that did it, but not enough. Yes the final battle with Luke vs Vader and in Empire when Luke finds out Vader is his father. But Lucas also needed the help (and I'm glad he had it)of others to direct. It kinda makes me sad that the prequels turned out the way they did, they had so much potential but I digress.
I didn't mean to say Lucas has no talent, or that the old Star Wars were no good, however I think that if Joss was given adequete time (say a trilogy or more seasons of Firefly) that it would easily top Lucas.
IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:15 AM

SHEPARD

I think ya'll have pretty much hit the issue on the head (and it's gone looking for a lawyer, so watch it!) When most of us first saw SW, it was a kids' movie, and we were kids. When we first saw FF/Serenity, it was for adults, and were adults (BTW, when the HELL did that happen?) When we saw the prequels, we were adults watching a kids' movie, and it wasn't the same.

But for all the ranting I could do about GL, I have to thank him for one thing: he made Sci-Fi (and indirectly fantasy) movies fun again. Thank you, George, that forgives a lot of ewoks.

Hell. It's special. And populated by ewoks.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:27 AM

NEEDY

The road to Hel is paved with good intentions

Quote:
Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
Needy,
You make some very good points in your last post. Reguarding the emotional level in star wars it wasn't enough for me. You are right, there were some moments that did it, but not enough. Yes the final battle with Luke vs Vader and in Empire when Luke finds out Vader is his father. But Lucas also needed the help (and I'm glad he had it)of others to direct. It kinda makes me sad that the prequels turned out the way they did, they had so much potential but I digress.
I didn't mean to say Lucas has no talent, or that the old Star Wars were no good, however I think that if Joss was given adequete time (say a trilogy or more seasons of Firefly) that it would easily top Lucas.
IS

The Bible's a bit fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

I know what you mean Isaac, and I didn't take your comment to mean that you thought Lucas was talentless.
I guess though, considering theres so much criticism of the SW movies nowadays (due to the prequels for the most part) that I always feel the urge to give my opinion on the matter
I merely wanted to get across the differences between Serenity and the SW Trilogy, to get across why I can't really compare them

As for the prequels - and to a point addressed by Shepard - I cannot agree more when it comes to Episode 1 - so very much a kids film

Episode 2 and 3... not so much.
The only issues I had with those two was the dialogue and acting, but on the whole, they are as enjoyable as the others... even if they are again, very different in feeling to the originals

Oh and btw - I liked the ewoks.
(Then again, I grew up with them so I can't help but look at them and smile at how CUTE they are)

...

I didn't actually "grow up" with ewoks... though my mum is short and my cat is very cute

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Needy. Male Companion a.k.a. First Boy Whore of Destiny
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www.myspace.com/needsalt

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:46 AM

ZOID

NEEDY wrote:

Quote:
...As for Star Wars not having the same emotional response as Serenity... well I'd have to disagree there.
I think there are a lot of emotions on display during Han being frozen in carbonite, and Luke being told the truth by Darth in Empire, and the brilliant moment near the end of Jedi when Luke really lets loose on Vader after the mention of his sister. This scene alone, along with the remarkable music by John Williams, always sends a chill up my spine...

I, too, was a great fan of all 3 of the 'middle trilogy' Star Wars films. I didn't really even have that much of a problem with the Ewoks, until other people started saying they were cheesy. At first I argued the point, saying, "The Ewoks are not cheesy! In fact, they taste of chicken!"

But in all of filmdom, there are only 3 fight scenes that are so emotionally involving that I feel my skin flush, the hair on my arms standing erect, and I stand up from my seat and start whooping and pumping my fist like a total moron. These are, in no particular order: Clint Eastwood in the final saloon showdown of "Unforgiven"; Russell Means kicking Wes Studi's a$$ in "Last of the Mohicans"; and Summer Glau going ballistic on Reavers in "Serenity". The whole "My turn" thing, leading up to that battle royale is simply amazing, as is Summer's physical work in the scene. And then the image as the blast door reopens (no spoilers), finishes that singular event that the whole movie has been heading toward...

Nothing in Star Wars has got that kind of impact.

I will say that the scene you mentioned was very effective, but does not reach quite the same emotional level, for me personally. I know it moved the plot/character development along, but when Luke severs Darth's hand, the scene lost a little emotional momentum while he considered their physical similarity and what dark emotions have cost them in terms of their humanity. And the action virtually stopped thereafter, unless you consider evil cackling, goopy moralisms, CGI thunderbolts and midget-tossing as 'action'.

For me, the most beautiful fight scene in Star Wars was Luke vs. Vader in the carbonite chamber, in TESB. I loved the shadowy lighting and colorful (literally) swordplay. Very kendo...

Contrarily,

zoid

P.S.
I did stand up and cheer when they blew up the kit-model Death Star in ANH; but that was not a fight scene by my lights, per se. Oddly, I was not as moved when they blew up the CGI Super Death Star in RotJ. The first one was climactic, the second was denouement...

Edited to add: I was 19 years old when the original "Star Wars" was released cinematically in 1977. Not yet the emotionally mature person I am today, but not a 'kiddie' by any means. "Star Wars" was not a kiddie flick. But it was a return to heroic stories in movies, a welcome change. Now, if you want to argue that RotJ was a kiddie flick because of the Ewoks, you might have an argument there; but the first installment was well-noted for 'dirty'-looking spaceships, cobbled together equipment and the presence of Han Solo (Greedo did not shoot first!) as being a radical departure from the squeaky-clean Star Trek and "2001: A Space Odyssey". Just an old fogey's reminiscences...
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:48 AM

MEKAN

Well you may want or not want to read this:

[/link] http://slashdot.org/articles/06/03/21/163235.shtml
It seems that a broken and boring Star Wars universe will be made while Firefly languishes in fan thoughts.

George Lucas = Hack

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:09 AM

AZHEA

I'm so thoroughly depressed now. You warned us, but I HAD to go read about it. Shoulda seen that comin'.

While I respect all that GL has accomplished, I do feel he's past his prime. Episodes 1-3 were done, imho, merely for profit.

I won't be watchin' the TV series... too busy replaying Firefly epsisodes to care about that galaxy, not far enough away.

*************************************************
I look out for me and mine... that don't include you 'lessen I conjure it does.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:40 AM

FIRESTALKER

I'm sorry if this offense anyone, but WTF!!!!!

WHO CARES WHAT LUKE WAS DOING BEFORE HE MET C3PO AND R2D2?! I can tell you what he was doing... He was shooting rats from a speeder, working on the farm and whining about do it! Thats what he was doing. My god what more could have done without making what happened in "A New Hope" repetetive?

I'm curious... Who really cares?

-------------------------------------------------
"You know what the definition of a hero is? Someone that gets other people killed."

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:55 AM

AGIRLYMAN

It was a miracle Starwars ever made it to the theaters, if you haven't seen it, check out the making of starwars. Lucas, not only got his vision on screen, he changed the industry, and raised the bar on how movies are made.

Joss took one character from Starwars, put his spin on it, made it better, and created a grand new verse.

I love Joss, but Lucas wins this battle.

P.S. Note to Lucas: Episodes I & II sucked

AM I NOT MERCIFUL?!?!?!?

Tee Hee

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:40 PM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
I was 19 years old when the original "Star Wars" was released cinematically in 1977. Not yet the emotionally mature person I am today, but not a 'kiddie' by any means. "Star Wars" was not a kiddie flick.

Exactly. I was old enough to drive, myself. And, we did not view it as a "kiddie" flick by any means.

One thing I think people born after "Star Wars" can't realize is what movies were like before it. Sure, they can watch tons of pre-1977 movies on TV (or DVD, or whatever), but they've already seen what came after "Star Wars", as well, so it's not the same as having lived through the 60's and 70's (or even earlier) and not having seen (or even guessing) what was going to come afterwards, because it didn't exist yet.

Believe those of us who were there, movies before "Star Wars" were completely different than what we're used to (and take for granted) today.

I, for one, enjoy "Serenity" more than is normally healthy to, and I'd rather see a new "Firefly" series/"Serenity" film than something else from the "Star Wars" universe.

Nonetheless, "Star Wars" paved the road for everything done in sci-fi after it.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:51 PM

OTMA

I think Lucas does "big" very well, but not so well with "small."
Star Wars blew audiences out of their seats with its opening scene when that star destroyer flew overhead. Part of the problem people had with the prequels may be that in the intervening years, we've come to expect special effects on that scale. Star Wars, like Blade Runner, has actually aged rather well. It's effects aren't as spectacular and ground breaking today as they once were, but they don't look as thoroughly dated as a lot of other older SF. Still, the bar has been raised quite a bit on "blow me out of my seat."
The prequels, despite having technnically much more spectacular visuals, couldn't pack the same "big" punch as the originals. As far as the "small" goes, the Star Wars movies created classic characters. Like Star Trek, though, they come across as "characters", not so much as "people." This is because Lucas isn't very good at the "small" touches. He can do grand arcs of character development, like the growth of Luke from ANH to ROTJ, and emotions writ large, like Luke's confrontation with his father. His dialogue and style tend to undercut or omit smaller moments. A fan's imagination can fill in the blanks of thin characterization, and make the characters seem like real people, but the blanks are definitely there to need filling in.
Joss Whedon is much better at "small." His Firefly crew come across as much better defined and multi-dimensional, more like "people" than "characters." They are more real, more emotionally engaging. He can certainly do "big" as well, but even in the biggest moments, the focus is on the people in the spectacle, not the spectacle itself. To be fair, Lucas can keep a huge scene focused on his heroes too, but Whedon's BDH's bring more depth to the table.
Star Wars, even at its most intimate, is an epic. Serenity, even at its most epic, is an intimate character study. River's big scene at the end packs a punch, not because it's a big fight scene, but because that's RIVER in there. Because Joss Whedon has made her so real to us, we're in there with her. Most "big" fights leave you on the outside, looking in. It's the "small" touches that pull you in, make you feel it. "Small" makes the "big" mean more.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:00 PM

CARTOON

In my opinion, your analysis is flawless.

I think of "Star Wars" as "The Iliad" -- which, while we get taken up in it and love to watch it, we know that we, ourselves, would never quite fit in with this group of people. "Serenity" is like the people you know next door (for both the good and bad that entails).

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:05 PM

MOSS

Firstly I am not a fan of the latest Star Wars movies, I think that Mr Lucas has become what he dispised back when he made Star Wars.

Moss says:

Joss is cleverer than Lucas -but Lucas had a damm good imagination.

Lucas just got old.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:40 AM

MOSS

CARTOON, You must live in an interesting neighbourhood dude.

I can't say I have met many people resembling the crew of firefly (except when I was travelling) I have met a couple of Jayne's (one guy who went by the name 6 chickens) and a Wash (a taxi driver called Vaczic who prefessed to being a lesbian trapped in a mans body)...

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:10 AM

TANKIN

I think modernization is the key to all this. I was born 1985, but I can still appreciate the impact Star Wars had on movies to date. I also think GL should've left it as a trilogy...In my opinion, he got greedy and wanted to try make an extra buck or two. Hell, I still watch the old star wars movies, I was raised on 'em. But I appreciate intricacy in a movie, and that's one thing GL flaunted. In comparison, yes Star Wars had its moments and turned the tables of the movie industry, which in the end gave us something as beautiful as Serenity. Everyone makes such great points...But we're in the 'now', not the past. Star Wars opened the door, and when we walked through it we saw Serenity/Firefly. You can't discredit GL for his imagination, but I personally think JW is a genius. His imagination out-strips GL's as far as I'm concerned, as does his ability to truly define a character. He creates real humor (the only time I laughed in the prequel's was from R2D2) and brings real depth into the storyline. Let's face it...GL's biggest twists: "Luke, I'm your father." & "Leia, you're my sister."...Maybe this had the dramatic effect 30years back, but these days we want more, we expect more, and we've found more in Serenity/Firefly. My vote goes to Serenity/Firefly. I'll support JW thru-n-thru.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:20 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by Moss:
CARTOON, You must live in an interesting neighbourhood dude.

I meant that the people in "Serenity" are more realistic, and just "like" the people next door. I didn't mean that Jayne, Book & Mal lived next to me.

Although, Jayne's shooting off Vera in the middle of the night has grown a might annoyin'.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:24 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by Tankin:
I also think GL should've left it as a trilogy...

Well, he had always intended it to be a 9-film story -- at least as far back as 1980, where I remember hearing discussions of it. Three prequels and three sequels. And as far as I can remember, only two characters were slated to be in all 9 films -- R2 & C3PO.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 5:53 AM

MEKAN

The first Star Wars trillogy was the best of its time. I do not believe that GL had any clue that it would rock the world like it did and had never planned more than the first picture. When the Death Star blew up the universe was saved. The story was quite simple, but the affects were super. Frankly, without the acting of Ford I don't think the movie would have ever been looked at as more than a FX flick. The thing is, until this time FX was never as professionally done. Did Lucas invent the FX or just stumble on an FX team ready to knock Hollywood on its ear. If you put the typical FX of the day in the original Star Wars it would never have been a rave, the story was ok but characters weak.

GL never produced great dialog and characters were always shallow. All of this is my own opinion, and I know that by saying that Star Wars was only intended to be a single picture is heretical.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:24 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by Mekan:
The first Star Wars trillogy was the best of its time. I do not believe that GL had any clue that it would rock the world like it did and had never planned more than the first picture. When the Death Star blew up the universe was saved. The story was quite simple, but the affects were super. Frankly, without the acting of Ford I don't think the movie would have ever been looked at as more than a FX flick. The thing is, until this time FX was never as professionally done. Did Lucas invent the FX or just stumble on an FX team ready to knock Hollywood on its ear. If you put the typical FX of the day in the original Star Wars it would never have been a rave, the story was ok but characters weak.

GL never produced great dialog and characters were always shallow. All of this is my own opinion, and I know that by saying that Star Wars was only intended to be a single picture is heretical.

If he had intended it as only one movie, I doubt he would have bothered securing the sequel rights (which was rather unheard of at the time) prior to release.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 7:41 AM

MEKAN

Do you remember the early showings played Episode 1 on the rolling text intro? Or was that just bad drugs I had that day?

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:15 AM

CARTOON

Quote:
Originally posted by Mekan:
Do you remember the early showings played Episode 1 on the rolling text intro? Or was that just bad drugs I had that day?

I honestly can't remember there being "any" episode listing in the original "Star Wars" (which I saw 7 times theatrically in 1977).

However, I do certainly recall going to see "Empire" on the day of it's release in May 1980, and wondering what the heck the "episode V" was all about -- thinking I must've missed something, or there'd been a typo.

And, that's when I learned about the proposed 9-film series.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:27 AM

ZORPRIME01

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:If he had intended it as only one movie, I doubt he would have bothered securing the sequel rights (which was rather unheard of at the time) prior to release.

As the story goes, Lucas had a rough outline of all three original movies as one long story. When he got to the stage that he could actually start making the thing, he realized it was far too much to do in a single feature. He opted to break it up into three separate filsm and tell the first of the three, with options to do the two sequels if the first was successful.

If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak.

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 8:34 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by cartoon:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mekan:
Do you remember the early showings played Episode 1 on the rolling text intro? Or was that just bad drugs I had that day?

I honestly can't remember there being "any" episode listing in the original "Star Wars" (which I saw 7 times theatrically in 1977).

However, I do certainly recall going to see "Empire" on the day of it's release in May 1980, and wondering what the heck the "episode V" was all about -- thinking I must've missed something, or there'd been a typo.

And, that's when I learned about the proposed 9-film series.

The Episode IV tag was added to the original in '79. The movie was still in theatres, but replacement prints were shipped out (as after a year, they were a bit battered), and Empire was in pre-production at the time.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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