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Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:
My husband and I (and all our friends who are fans of buffy and Whedon) agree that Joss should have been born a lesbian. He is completely obsessed with female empowerment. Could stem from the fact that he was raised solely by his mother, dead beat dad no where to be found.

That being said, I don't exactly agree with river being made into "buffy" in Serenity. Two completely different characters who happen to be small in frame, and large in power. Different motivation behind each though. Buffy was "chosen" to save the world from various and assundry mythological beasties. River was an extremely intelligent child who was "created" to be a weapon, most likely of evil intent. She made a choice to use the training and other stuff the scientists put in her head for good, to save her friends. There are definately some similarities though...but as a whole they are much more different, than similar.

Buffy draws very distinct lines between right and wrong. Firefly blurs them. They are thieves & smugglers plain and simple. Sure its wrong but its what they've got to do to survive.

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I'd say that both Buffy and River were chosen, both by powers higher or mightier than themselves. One for good, as you say, the other a misplaced belief in what was good. Worshipping the devil in the name of God, you might say which in many ways applies to buffy too.

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I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How about:
Paul Anderson: fighting, blood, nonsense,un-focused plots- Soldier, Mortal Kombat, Event Horizon, AVP.

You're right on about preoccupations. I say let 'em loose ('Cause they give us flicks like Serenity!!!)

Chrisisall, in reality, a teenage girl that can kill

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Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:

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I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.

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Clive Barker once took a modern lit analysis class (undercover of course) and they came to read one of his books when he got his paper back, he'd failed. He brought it to the attention of the instructor that he'd infact written the book. The instructor simply replied, "I know who you are, do you think I didn't notice the picture on the back of the book. You write the books and I will analyze them. Now stop wasting my time."

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Hey AngusThermopyle

Always interesting to see a contrary viewpoint on Joss Whedon.

I think in part you're right to his obsessions and preoccupations. Thing is he isn't alone most creative people indulge in their obsessions whatever they may be. I'll site some examples:

Stanley Kubrick :Violence, Sexual diviance and underage sex: A clockwork Orange, The Shining, Lolita, Eyes Wide Shut.

Steven Spielberg :Child hero figures, The hunter figure, Broken families: Close Encouters of the third Kind, ET, Jaws, Duel, Sugarland Express, Jurassic Park.

Disney :I forget the exact figures but aparently only four Disney films have ever dipicted characters who were in a healthy family environment, all the others represent some stem of a broken family.

Tim Burton :Death, Outsiders, skeletons and gothic horror, : Bettlejuice, Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, Peewee's Big adventure, Batman.

Ridley Scot : Female hero figures, Long self-indulgent photography, Violent male characters: Alien, GI jane, Thelma and Loiuse, Bladerunner, 1492

David Cronenberg: Sex, Desire, Taboo subject matter: The Brood, Dead Ringers, Crash

Peter Greenaway: Classical references, Literary references, art, nudity: Drowning by numbers, The Cook his Theif his wife and her Lover, The Pillow Book, Baby of Macon.

Guilemo Del Toro: Human/monster hybrids, Water, Yellow light : Blade 2, Cronos, Hellboy.

James Cammeron :Strong female leads, Water, guns, military: Aliens, Titanic, True Lies, Terminator

and so on. It's a common theme with creative types. Many times they're unawre that they do it. I remember reading an interview about Tim Burton and the interviewer was asking him about his [Burton's]obsession with the outsider figure, and up to that point Tim hadn't really worked out that he had that obsession about the films he'd made. It took him by surprise.

In the commentary's I've heard with Joss he has mentioned several times that while he is aware that he isn't making Shakespeare he is also a beliver that while you are working on a project you must 'feel' as though what you're doing is a work of Shakespeare. His argument being that you have to invest so much time and energy into a project, that unless you beieve in it whole heartedly you won't get something made.

I know where he's coming from. I'm a cartoonist and very often I do things that I think: Yup! That's it! It's brilliant a work of genius! But when I'm done and I look at it after the deadline is done and dusted I see it for what it really is: nothing much really, and I know many others' could have done it - but unless I think it is worth my time there and then because it is unique, I won't get the thing done.

Filling a blank pice of paper ain't easy and over a long period of time you have to draw upon those obsessions to fuel your imagination. It's kinda all you have sometimes.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

P.S. If he is a one trick pony..... WHAT a trick to have.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

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Originally posted by chrisisall:
How about:
Paul Anderson: fighting, blood, nonsense,un-focused plots- Soldier, Mortal Kombat, Event Horizon, AVP.

You're right on about preoccupations. I say let 'em loose ('Cause they give us flicks like Serenity!!!)

Chrisisall, in reality, a teenage girl that can kill

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God yeah Paul Anderson! How? Why? Director for hire syndrome.

Oh well.

www.cirqus.com

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Originally posted by ChrisMoorhead:

I HATE Angelina Jolie and her Tomb Raider, I HATE Charlize Theron and her Aeon Flux, I HATE Milla Jovovich and her Ultraviolet, and I HATE, I HATE, I HATE PETER PAN!

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With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think);

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The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British...

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LMAO, I actually quite like Event Horizon (which is basically The Shining in space), but mainly for the ship. A mate of mine was one of the concept artists who worked on it, as well as Fifth Element, 007's, Captain Scarlet, Thunderbirds, Tomb Raider I and II (Last 3 he thought were all crap.)

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Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
What is the obsession about teenage girls, skinny teenage girls (almost pubescent, you might say) and violence? It was a shame that he had to make River into Buffy in Serenity. [...]

When I’ve seen JW giving interviews, it is quite apparent that he does have a penchant for self-import indulgent lyricism. He does like to go on about metaphors etc. Let’s be pragmatic here. They’re just martial arts/horror/sci-fi TV shows. Fun as they are. It isn’t Mervyn Peake or Shakespeare.

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The other thing that was disappointing and took away a lot of Firefly’s originality was the fact that space wasn’t silent anymore. I really like that about Firefly. I feel it gave it an edge and a loneliness.

Oh and one or two things I just have to mention from Firefly: In the episode Shindig, Sir what’shisface went on about his sash saying it denoted lord-hood. I think that would be knighthood. A lord is a lord and a sir is a knight and I’ll move to queen bish 3. The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British, apart from one East European. With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think); how come all the crew are American and Chinese people only seem to be in the background, selling from market stalls or walking by? One last thing: Why does he get so many Americans to play Britons? They can’t do it.

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Originally posted by reaverman:

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With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think);

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Not to nitpick or anything, but if you look at the state of the world today, China is an industrial superpower. They make just about everything for everyone (exactly how the U.S. became an important world player). As for military might, their fighting forces number 20,000,000 (with an additional 20,000,000 in "public service brigades" that do jobs like repairing roads and maintaining the country; while not as rigorously trained as the main fighting arm of the military, are ready to fight on short notice). The total U.S. Military strength (including intel analysts, desk pilots, etc... that dont do much actual fighting) numbers 2,500,000- 3,000,000. Three quarters of that is scattered around the globe and in no position to mount a cohesive action quickly. Another thing is, people think of China as primitive and backward, but in most feilds, they are only a couple of years behind the U.S. That's one of the benefits of manufacturing electronics for the most advanced nations in the world. The fact is, China's already a superpower. Most folks just dont want to admit it.

"We're gonna explode? I don' wanna explode!"

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Originally posted by GORRAMREEVER:
I believe somewhere in the commentary for buffy (season 1 ep. 1?) Joss actually makes a point to say that is where buffy orignated from. He always wanted to see your "typical damsel in distress" turn around and kick her attacker in the nuts, instead of crying or running away she becomes a strong female hero. _Not a direct quote, but you get the idea_

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Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:

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The other thing (which is in most of his series) is that all the good guys are Americans and the baddies are British...

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I can't vouch for the accents as I'm American, but I'm pretty sure that one would count Giles and Wesley as good guys in Joss shows. I think Spike in the last seasons of Buffy and Angel would be considered one of the good guys too.

"I have never understood why it should be necessary to become irrational in order to prove that you care. Or indeed, why it should be necessary to prove it at all." -Kerr Avon

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Oh, and Mervyn Peake; nice! Love the Gormenghast books (miniseries was really bad, though).

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Okay... silence in space: yeah, that was one of my favourite details about the show, and I was a little disappointed they cheated so much to make the movie 'louder.' I still say a silent space battle would be cool -- the contrast between the silent exterior shots and the sudden noise and chaos whenever you switched to inside a ship. Ah, well.

As for British characters always being villains played by not-so-British actors... um... Giles? Anyone?

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But one thing I wanted to pick up on -misogynistic characters in his work, where?

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Originally posted by charmuse:
Just me personally, but my feeling is Joss loves women. He empowers them, and he believes in love. It is as simple as that.

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Originally posted by charmuse:
Of course they do. They have a such a rare bit of power in real life. I understand your issue but in my estimation, men are so conditioned, as the wide world is, to see women as victims. Not strong, not in control, not smart, not capable. And for the most part the are subjugated. Pretty or ugly, that is the decider and the only condsideration in most men's brainpan, nothing more.

Joss answers that. Is he redundant? No, I don't think he is. The common thread is strong women and from my way of thinkin', they come in all stripes to him. Mechanic, cheerleader, child prodidgy and the like. He enjoys seeing women being smart, capable and fighters if the need to be.

No different then the myriad of action male stars on record. Joss chooses to champion women as opposed to the same ole Arnie feya. Good for him, I say.

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Originally posted by AngusThermopyle:
The other thing that was disappointing and took away a lot of Firefly’s originality was the fact that space wasn’t silent anymore. I really like that about Firefly. I feel it gave it an edge and a loneliness.

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GO BACK AND WATCH SERENITY AGAIN.

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With all JW’s talk about the future being about two superpowers: US and China (unlikely, I think); how come all the crew are American and Chinese people only seem to be in the background, selling from market stalls or walking by?

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Originally posted by Legolad:
Okay... silence in space: yeah, that was one of my favourite details about the show, and I was a little disappointed they cheated so much to make the movie 'louder.' I still say a silent space battle would be cool -- the contrast between the silent exterior shots and the sudden noise and chaos whenever you switched to inside a ship. Ah, well.

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Serenity is not anywhere near Londinum.

Serenity is not anywhere near Sihnon.

Serenity soars between the Border planets.

Think America--old west. The Chinese were there too. But most of them were back in China or Sihnon.

The Border planets are the old west. The Border planets would just naturally attract Americans. If they weren't cowboys and cowgirls when they got to the Border planets...they soon will be.

Do you really think the Chinese are going to go to another solar system without taking their best customers with them?

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Originally posted by glitch:
I think that in JW's work the skinny teenaged girl is meant to represent the underdog in all of us. No doubt there's a feminist component, but I'd say it's less in-your-face than it is matter-of-fact: this guy doesn't mind using skinny teenaged girls as a stand-in for all of us. I teach teenaged girls, and I do think too many people still dismiss them as unimportant, exploit them, talk down to them, objectify them. I think they're a good choice to embody those who are undervalued and underestimated. And the dream of all of us who feel somewhat undervalued and underestimated ourselves that someday, we'll really show people what we can do.

Btw, the name Angus Thermopyle--you know, I love Stephen Donaldson. But that character must be one of the most screwed up people--and not least about male-female relationships--in all of science fiction. Not insinuating anything (or not insinuating much, b/c I really don't buy into your stuff about male/female "roles"--mostly, though, I'm just curious), but how does someone espousing the views you do choose such a user name?

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Originally posted by charmuse:
>I disagree. You're helping to perpetuate the belief that women >are all victims. If you need fiction to help you believe that >they're not, you can't have very affirming people in your life.

This is silly. I love Joss for his writing and worlds he creates. You made this a personal beef almost immeadiately. Why?

>All stripes you say. What about all sizes? You ever see a fat or >unattractive heroine in a JW series? Nope! They're all skinny >and pretty. I realise that the networks probably wouldn't allow >anything else, but has he ever even written one? Let's face it, >the majority of US women are nothing like that. So, what's his >writing giving them, huh? It's helping them to see themselves >as unattractive and unwelcome. Isn't that misogyny of a sort?

Well if you consider the fact that all the men on the show are babes. No fat ugly slobs among them.....

>Women aren't powerless in real life, that's a crock. I don't know >about you, but I'm living in the 21st century. Women are as >screwed up as men. They are strong in some areas, weak in >others, and damaged in others. We all are.

Maybe so, but opinion on damage should be decided by knowing a person, not by age, sex, color or race. So call that a draw.

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Originally posted by seryn:
but my point still stands, that one episode of Angel that you cite, where in Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Toystory even is Joss Wheadons insinutation that all men are misogynistic?

Sadly I can't go right now and watch the episode you stated, but I assume that it involved a character with these opinions, spouting off about them, maybe somehow inducing one of the regular cast to follow suit? possibly? I don't know, but...

Joss Writes fiction, fiction is a way of expressing your own views, but it is also the only way to take someone elses view, maybe that you agree with, maybe that you think is completely wrong, and use it to create an interesting story through 'characters'. What one character believes has nothing to do with Joss. He, like all writers, simply gathers up bits of this thing we call humanity and throws them all out for us to take with what we will.
Take Mal for example, you'd think, being the lead of a show he's wanted to do forever, Mal would be a reflection of himself, pretty much no.

So before I believe you, give me example of how his main characters and 'worlds' insinuate "that behind every male face is the beating heart of a primitive woman-hater."

Because they really don't.

And for the fat issue, why oh why is this brought up time and time again? There is a huge difference between using super skinny supermodel types with boob jobs and perma tans, and using real normal people. Every single one of his cast members is a healthy, normal, sized and shaped person, hell, Jewel apparently put on weight to play Kaylee. They live on the edge of space, the are active, underindulgent people, no-one is going to be fat, so why wedge one in for pc's sakes?
The only time I ever get at people for the fat issue is when they are fat and seen as nothing more than that (you want elaboration go find the ranting thread in Talk Story.) and Joss would never ever do that. (basically cause he has more imagination and interest in characters over stereotypes)

That said, objectification. Hell, this is television, we only partake of it because we want to, and the sad fact of the matter is that for all our supposed nobless and cultural conditioning, you, me, that guy loading the small cannon in the corner, are barely one step away from bonobo chimps rubbing their asses together in the jungle. We watch things mainly because we are attracted to them, you could have the most perfect plot known to the universe, but if your characters repulsed people, no one (in terms of viewing figures) would ever watch it. So in that way everyone who ever gets even so much as a toe on screen is 'objectified'

Not just women, and by only seeing the objectification of women and ignoring the objectification of men and even cute little puppies, you are actually being rather sexist and insulting.

Your here telling us that Joss's work is all about female empowerment, it objectifies, it only deals with teenages girls, and so called superwomen.

If that were the case, then the only people posting here would be teenage girls and the old 40 year old male with a new developed skill for typing one handed.

Instead here we are,people from a broad spectrum of different sexes, races and ages and social, political and cultural backgrounds.

So really, what does that say about the diverse appeal of Joss's work? He, by no stretch of the imagination, is a one trick pony, (horse?) cause if he were, no-one would care enough to condradict you.

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Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!

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Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
That aint civilised rules. Too much politicaly correct thinking there. Joss did Buffy and then he did Angel. He doesnt care if its a man or a woman. Its what best fits the plot. Nowadays there is too much thought on 'am I able to do this? is it right to say that? should a woman or man be portrayed in this way?'. My attitude is as long as you are not offensive to another race or human being, say and do what you like and dont let the media and society brain wash you into 'being a better person'. You can be a better person by being yourself and believing in your own moral values.

I wouldnt say Badger is a baddie he's the same as Mal. Hes an opportunist who makes his living anyway he can. Coz im British I think he's cool :)

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Originally posted by seryn:
'Kind of insulting' isn't extreme, I was referring to the way you seem to feel that women need someone to argue their case for them, to stand up and help them, which is actually kind of insulting, especially as it regards a show that all the women who have posted here agree doesn't really raise the need for this 'help'.

Yeah, you said 'is it' but isn't that just semantics? If you have an opinion, state it, be prepared to talk it over, thats what discussion boards are for, but (trying to remain impersonal) posing a question like 'is this guy you all are gathered here because you like and admire just basically a bit deficient?' then walking away saying 'bye bye, wasn't me honestly! You all just agrue to much, i'm going to leave you to it' isn't discussion, its almost blatent baiting.

And i'm not going to say that word, but it does come to mind.

Yes, ok, in that episode, misogynistic tendencies are inflated to a gross degree. But you're ignoring what I said about exploring alternative viewpoints in fiction.
Anywhere in the episode did it baldly state that deep down inside all men are woman hating pigs and they just need some guy called Billy to come along and show them? Who said that? How do we know that these were Joss's own opinions? We don't, it was possible he was simply exploring possibilities.

And quite frankly taking the subject of one episode in one season in one series, and applying it to everything he has ever produced is just a bit naff.

So, no, you're probably quite wrong.

'average''role-model' what do you mean by those words? Fat? geeky? old? normal? Or just simply not a 'pin-up'. Would you call any of the starlets in hollywood movies 'role models'?

All these terms are so debatable its not worth posting the list until we've tied down the definitions. But the characters that stick in my mind are the cootch dancers from Carnivale - full, viable characters regardless of their size and their professions.

My last (four) paragraphs didn't exclude the possiblity of crazed fans. I'm not talking about the end results, i'm talking about the initial attraction.

It takes a diverse range of factors to attract a diverse range of people, which is what this site has (proven - the what do you do in real life threads) and you can't be diverse and broad in your appeal if you are a 'one-trick' - its not possible.

So, to join in with the semantics - 'Is he...? No, he's not.

And I think that, seeing as you've already left the discussion, ends it (between you and I at least)

**********************************************************
Hodgins: Your robot reminds me of you. You tell it to turn it stops. You tell it to stop it turns. You ask it to take out the garbage it watches reruns of Firefly.
FozzieWash, You know what I always say: sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug!
KermieMal, I never Know what the heck you're talking about.
FozzieWash, Hey, look! They're sending us free lumber!

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Originally posted by j6ngo1977:
No I dont think people should be stopped from saying what they want but there has to be a line drawn. For example Hitler. He said and did what he wanted but it wasnt morally correct and again his thought process was brought about by social conditioning. 5 guys pilot an airplane into the two towers and because of social conditioning the rest of the western populace think Muslims are all bad. I agree with you on the cartoon thing.

The kind of people I find offensive are rude inconsiderate people. Sociapaths. Which tends to be the general public :) Which you are not Augus because you are bringing forward your opinion with a very good explanation. Previous forums Ive been on , mention no names but Urban75, if you make a comment, for example 'I like cheese' you will then immediately get a torrent of abuse saying how crap cheese is with no explanation .LOL

I'll go with the Robin Hood thing. Yeh Inara is Maid Marion :) Ive never really fancied Inara, Ive always been a Yo-Saf-Bridge kinda guy but at the end of Serenity when she has no make-up on and she smiles at Mal my heart melted :)

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