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Originally posted by 11thHour:
Hey, Spike was toasted to ashes and Joss brought him back with a necklace.

When a beloved character can still do great things for the storytellin', Joss will find a way to bring 'im back.

26th Century medicine could very well work a lot like magic.

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written by Zeek:
The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him. So, there were bodies to be burried. Besides I think they probably did bring Book's body onboard all Tracy style.

I'm betting they found Wash right where they left him. All dead.

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Originally posted by Zeek:
The memorial thing is wrong too. Sure Book's body might not be there, but we know darn sure Mr. Universe didn't up and leave. At the very least they probably burried his buffy bot if the Reavers somehow ate him.

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Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:

And from what I've seen from the series and the movie, medicine has not come to the point of bringing people back from the dead, and even if Wash didn't die instantly, everyone was far too distracted to get him the first aid neccessary to stop him from dying.

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Originally posted by CHOLLETT:
I'm not here to argue about Wash's alive/dead status, but I am going to say that I am quite sure that the ship that chased/EMP'd/harpooned Serenity was a Reaver ship, mainly because YOU CAN SEE IT EARLIER WHEN THEY FIRST PASS THROUGH REAVER SPACE.
Seriously. Check it out. I'm 100% sure. When they first head to Miranda, there is a shot early on in their passage, i'm not sure exactly when, where you can see the same ship in the Reaver Asteroid Belt. With the pointy wing type things and all. It's kinda dark, but I think it gives of a small blip of light at some point.
That would make sense in the argument of "Where the heck were the Alliance for 20 minutes/half an hour?" They were still fighting the Reavers in the air and working their way down. They wouldn't have had the time to organize an infiltration like they did until they were no longer occupied, most like.
I'm convinced that the ship that chases/EMP's them is the harpooner, because why would they just stop chasing?

I'm babbling like a moonbrain.

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Originally posted by Johnboy:

Cough. Cough. Tracey. Cough. Cough.

Sure, he was only *mostly* dead. Cue.....
Miracle Max: There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do
Inigo: What's that?
Miracle Max: Go through his clothes and look for loose change

Cheers,
Johnboy

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Originally posted by 11thHour:
26th Century medicine could very well work a lot like magic.

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Originally posted by ThePistonEngine:
Alright guys, lets boil it down to the real meat of the theory, and throw the less important details to the wayside. (Like whether the ship was reaver or alliance (ahem, reaver, ahem))

Is it possible that he was impaled, fell unconscious, but survived for a couple of Alliance boots to take him out? Possible, yes. Easily so. But I say unlikely.

They Alliance boots who landed on the ground are under heavy orders to find the Tams, and stop the message. Would they search the ship? Yes. But they'd glide over his body like it was nothing. Remember Safe, when they took Book to the Cruiser Magellen? They were ready the leave him to die, and they didn't even have to take him on a shuttle, cruise him up through a raging reaver-Alliance battle, and tend to their own wounded first.

The only fact mitigating this would be a strong desire to interrogate him, which I would find it hard to speak to one way or the other.

Tristen

_____________
Carry the Nuttin'

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Originally posted by nuclearday:
Wow, that was pretty well-thought-out. I'll take a faint glimmer of hope, sure.

I've heard Joss in a couple interviews mention there's at least a chance at bringing back Book and Wash if he was given another run at a sequel or another series. So sure, seems feasible, if not terribly likely.

Could be an interesting story arc, as well...

Well, I guess there's only one thing left to do: kidnap all the top execs from Fox, SciFi, CW, etc and start pulling fingernails until one of them gives in to reason :)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers.

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Originally posted by Kizyr:
I see Firefly in general as having a big departure atmosphere-wise from the rest of Whedon's business. Not knocking Buffy or Angel at all, but Firefly is supposed to be believable from the get-go; we're supposed to buy that what happens there could really happen (from small touches like no sound in space, to large ones like no FTL travel). The only stretches are River's ESP, and terraforming abilities.

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That's why I have a hard time seeing anything occur which isn't realistic at the very least. The only time we'd seen someone brought back from death is when they were clinically dead for under a minute (Mal in War Stories). Otherwise, folks don't come back...

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Originally posted by pastorbadger:
"Any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C. Clarke

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Originally posted by zzetta13:
mornin all,

First of all WELCOME to the new recruits "SHINY"
Thanks to Pastorbadger I think I counted bout 4or5 sign-ons. Great!! why be a lurker when you can put in your $0.2 and get the reaver at buffet treatment(you're the buffet)< This last part is a joke please don't take me serious.

I love threads like this it has me thinking about all kinds of new angles and yepp I can see both sides.

I think one of the things here is FEAR. That being fear of Washs return being done so badly that folks will go "Oh hell no, thats it back to the Happy Days reruns" click. Well have no FEAR,if Joss did bring Wash back I feel that it wouldn't be to near the begining of a new series and it wouldn't be like " Look guys it only went through my shirt and missed me completly.It did have the cloth pulled so tight I couldn't breath though." I think Joss is bettern that.

One other thing, Nauticalgal brought up something I hadn't considered.The "Mourning of Zoe" Washs death, the life changing event that it is, she can't be the same person. I see her as becoming a little less tolerant of Mal and maybe even "Jayne like" about his decisions.

I hope it won't be a cold day on an outter rim planet before the answers to many of these question are brought to light.

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Originally posted by IsaacShepherd:
After going through the posts, and re-reading the first one a few times I came up with a few things.

Alliance going in to check Serenity for any reason seems unrealistic. They can do a scan to see if anyone is there but why is there was one heat signature?

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Originally posted by pastorbadger:

6) O.K., my memory is beginning to fail, but let me make a stab at an “other” category. Dr. Who dies every few years, but the most recent incarnation fits “back from the dead” best. Some of the crew of the Seaview were infected by a “spore” which reanimated their dead bodies in “Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea”. Apollo was presumed dead in “The Lost Warrior” on the “Battlestar Galactica”. In “Giant Robot”, the AI with the best sarcastic wit in television is resuscitated against impossible odds on “Lost in Space”. (Oh, jeez, I am really scraping here…) Uhm. “Blake’s 7”? “The Starlost”? “Lexx”? “Farscape”? I know it happened, just can’t remember when. Help me out here.

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Originally posted by KuangZheDe:
WASH LIVES, anybody who disagrees will be pushed into the engines. I don't mean to come across as harsh but with multiple theories, and a nifty diagram if I do say so myself, it is 110% guaranteed that there is a 10-15% chance he is still alive.

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Originally posted by pastorbadger:
Actually I contend with almost every assertion in your post, but I snipped it because I'm all shagged out from my last diatribe. I picked the most glaring.

Alliance troops checking Serenity is unrealistic? Could it be you ain't recallin' the varied and sneaky ways the Tams have gone undetected on that boat before now? And isn't Serenity the star of this little operation?

One life sign? Did I not explain that by now there were two reavers already at the table and two more fightin' over a drumstick? (I can see now how River kills people with math.) Reavers is...was...human. They show up on a scan as sure as you or me.

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Originally posted by Amiton:
Help me out with something, Pastorbadger. I'm a likeable guy, and I presume that you are, too =) Bear in mind, I'm not asserting *anything* about your theory. I've said my part on that, you responded, and that's on the table.

I want to ask, though, are you intentionally trying to assert that people that don't accept your theory are foolish? The way that you seem to be responding to everyone that questions, even just a little bit, any part of your theory is that they obviously don't get what you're saying and/or must not be capable of seeing the obvious. I'll concede for just about anyone you want that your proposal is plausible. We've all seen significantly worse scripts work around character deaths.

For criminy sake, though, the guy took a telephone pole through the solar plexus. If there's an obvious assumption, it's that he's on the outs. There are plot devices that can be used to get around that, I'll acknowledge. Your theory is one of them. I'm down with that. It's been done in just about every series in existance where main characters die, so it can be a trend. Okay. (BTW, that also kind of means it's cliche, and can work just as much to mean that it's something that Joss won't touch for the sole reason that everyone does it - see the quote about lasers and FTL travel in SciFi).

I guess all that I'm asking is not to look down so much on people that don't jump on your coattails. Maybe you don't mean to, but you really are, at least from what I see in your messages, coming off as condescending and kind of disrespectful to the discussion participants that aren't 100% behind you.

Amiton.

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Originally posted by SAVEWASH:

Joss is a writer. I'm not a "real" writer, but I've tried, and one thing I know is that you can't cheat your reader/viewer. He dragged us headlong through all of that disbelief, grief, shock, etc., and there would have to be an incredibly strong reason to cheapen that by bringing back the character he killed to cause that reaction in the first place. It's not fair to us to make us go through all those emotions and then laugh it off and say, "I was just foolin'." I don't think he'd do that. I think he meant it.

I'm still sad about Wash and maybe I sell Joss short: maybe he could find a brilliant way to accomplish it. I just don't know if he could find a compelling enough reason to do it.

Just my opinion.

EDIT: Besides, if Joss brought Wash back, how could we ever believe him again if he killed another character? I couldn't.

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Originally posted by pastorbadger:

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
It was a Reaver ship. If you watch you the opening scenes you will see that the ship does not match the designs of any of the Alliance craft.

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Buzzzzzzz! Oh, sorry but thank you for playing our game. Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you.

We'll ignore for the moment that you've somehow got a comprehensive set of schematics for all Alliance craft in service, including contractors and new, secret designs, and consider the reavers for a moment: They didn't make their ships! They cut up and uglified whatever was left on Miranda. Maybe what they can jack in the performance of their daily mayhem. A.k.a. Alliance ships. Any reaver ship must also be an Alliance design.

It's the lack of really skinny folk ridin' on the outside of the ship I use to make this call. Reavers aren't known for a quick run through the auto-wash before a big battle.

(I meant that to sound considerably less harsh, but forums don't carry tone, so I'll throw one of these in )

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I am sorry my friend, but it is you that is wrong. I was on the development team for the game & YES we had access to the Alliance ship designs from the movie, and the ship that hits Serenity w/ the EMP is most definitely NOT an Alliance craft.

Your theory is interesting, but alas is based on erroneous information.

Hope that didn't sound harsh. It was not meant to be.

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Originally posted by mikeC:
the emp came from a reaver ship. wash is dead.

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Originally posted by mikeC:
so the crew came back to serenity after the battle and wash was gone?

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Originally posted by mikeC:
wash was a great guy but he's gone.

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Originally posted by pastorbadger:
That said, of course it was an Alliance ship. That's a given. Reavers don't sit at drafting tables, work at shipyards or take courses at the local community college. Reavers don't lay keels. Therefore, all ships they fly were either left on Miranda or have been jacked since then. Even if it was full of reavers, it was an Alliance ship. Semantics aside, it’s a question is who’s fleet/pack was it party to.

It was also in the Alliance fleet, because reavers never, ever fly shiny new rides. They have, in every circumstance, conveyed themselves in seriously (cosmetically and mechanically) messed up ships. I doubt they’d lift off in a freshly jacked ride without throwing some mud on the tires. Are you suggesting the extremely unlikely proposal that this particular ship was captured moments before the big battle? “I smell a lot of ‘if’ commin’ offa this plan…”

You say you had access to ship schematics, then you know that animators will use the same template for a dozen rendered ships in a single scene, let alone a ship in two different scenes. If a game uses two disjoint sets of keels for reavers and Alliance, then they’ve flattened the ‘verse to two dimensions. (Not uncommon in a game translation.)

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
The Alliance is not the only producer of spacecraft in the 'verse. There are private ship builders, big corporations (Blue Sun), and other sources of space craft than just the Alliance. Assuming because it flies it must have been Alliance at some point is pure speculation.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Never said the ship was captured moments before the battle. Not even sure how you arrived at that from what I posted.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Actually there were many different types of vessels we looked at for the game. Don't be surprised if a forth coming supplement for the game show cases a bunch of different ships, Alliance and others.

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Originally posted by jolly:
Serenity 2: Joss Repents

Opening scene
=============

(Zoe in Serenity's cargo hold, insuring everything is securely stored.)

Zoe (singing): "Take my love, take my land..."

(A shadowy figure emerges behind her and groans. Startled, Zoe spins and draws a gun. The camera focuses in and we see a man in rags covered in dirt from head to toe.)

Shadowy figure: "Honey, why did you bury me alive?"

(From the voice, we realize with Zoe that the figure is Wash!)

Zoe: "Wash! You were dead! There was a harpoon through your heart!"

Wash: "My heart was moved when I was kid. Result of a trampoline accident..."

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Originally posted by OnlyMe:
Sorry to have to put my 2 cents in. I have been lurking for a long time, but this post made me jump in.

I am not sure why you are meeting the idea that Wash may be alive with such disdain. The theory put forward is entirely plausible.

I have seen Serenity roughly 25 times since I got the DVD. I have ALWAYS assumed that it was an Alliance ship that hit Serenity with an EMP. Reavers would have grappled or harpooned.

Bottom line is this - we don't know, most of us hope. The only person who will know is Joss when and if he gets the go ahead.

Find something else to argue about.

Sorry. I feel like I am in kindergarten sitting between 2 know-it-alls who won't budge.

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Originally posted by OnlyMe:
Sorry to have to put my 2 cents in. I have been lurking for a long time, but this post made me jump in.

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Originally posted by OnlyMe:
I have seen Serenity roughly 25 times since I got the DVD. I have ALWAYS assumed that it was an Alliance ship that hit Serenity with an EMP. Reavers would have grappled or harpooned.

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Originally posted by zzetta13:
I know I keep coming back to this thread and I do because................well,I can.

Joss has built such a fan base with his other television shows that adding little bits and pieces here and there are fun for him. By this I mean Puting little things in just to fool the fandom or see if they catch it. Heck Joss himself might not know if Wash is truly dead.

Something that made me think that something was odd about the Wash scene was that after the "run through" he dramaticly lets out his last gasp of air. Now, was that to have the viewer go "Hey the man is truly dead.Cause that had to be his last breath."
I know it was an excited moment and Zoe and Mal rushed away from the danger in 10 seconds,but if you play the scene back again and just have Wash sit there in your mind without the heavy last breath isn't he still dead?

This kinda feels like to me (as in american football) a backfield reverse.Kinda have the crowd follow one way, while the ball goes the other.Crafty and very skillful,Joss.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

You do realize of course that an EMP weapon in space where there is no gravity would be far more effective than a harpoon or grapple. A ship floating dead in space would be easy prey.

Just sayin'.

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Originally posted by jolly:
Serenity 2: Joss Repents

Opening scene
=============

(Zoe in Serenity's cargo hold, insuring everything is securely stored.)

Zoe (singing): "Take my love, take my land..."

(A shadowy figure emerges behind her and groans. Startled, Zoe spins and draws a gun. The camera focuses in and we see a man in rags covered in dirt from head to toe.)

Shadowy figure: "Honey, why did you bury me alive?"

(From the voice, we realize with Zoe that the figure is Wash!)

Zoe: "Wash! You were dead! There was a harpoon through your heart!"

Wash: "My heart was moved when I was kid. Result of a trampoline accident..."

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