Male and Female Imponderables Part Deux by Tristan

JPSTARGAZER, Amen to that! As a fellow male driver, I have had to swallow comments on friends' driving before...but same goes for a woman driver...I am not stupid enough to actually say anything to a female driver, because I am just as likely to do something stupid...and we all know a woman's memory is like a steel trap compared to us males

AZHEA, if you have not experienced the kissing-down-the-back thing, you are missing out. We males that discover this holy grail of technique have used it to our advantage countless times!

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 11:46 AM

SASSALICIOUS

Not entirely sure what I feel about soulmates, but I know I'm definitely not looking for one right now.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 11:58 AM

AZHEA

Here's a question then...

What's the best way to open on this subject, to gently ask that he try it? My man is pretty open to such things, but I'd LOVE to hear what you hunky men have to say on the matter.

*************************************************
I mean to confound these bungers!
http://www.freewebs.com/liadanfirefly/index.htm

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Friday, May 5, 2006 12:02 PM

Well, beyond asking flat out that he give it a shot, you can always try hinting at trying something new. Use the kissing all over thing as foreplay. Males (well, most...ok, maybe some) listen for cues that they are doing the right thing...moaning or movement at the right time, say when he kisses the back of your neck, could be enough of a cue to lead him the rest of the way down the back. Or, failing that, try the "hey, let me do someehing to you, and you do the same to me". Might work! You say he is pretty open, so there are a few ideas!

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 12:37 PM

Ladies and Gentlemen, I must depart the 'Verse for awhile and travel into TRW...I should be back on later tonight...hopefully I will see some of you there.

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 12:39 PM

LYSANDER

Okay, I'm not sure I fit into the whole "hunky" category, but what the heck. There is nothing wrong with asking. That is one of the best ways to get ideas out that you would like to explore. Plus, there is nothing wrong with a woman who is straight forward and asks for what she wants. Besides, sometimes guys don't get the whole hinting thing.

Simon: What if he(Mal) tells you to kill me?
Zoe: (without hesitation) I kill you.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 3:51 PM

AZHEA

We communicate fairly well, no worries.

I was more interested in a general sense how that sort of thing should be handled from your prespective. Personally, I like when my partner tells me to do something he likes. I might be the natural submissive nature in me.

*************************************************
I mean to confound these bungers!
http://www.freewebs.com/liadanfirefly/index.htm

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Friday, May 5, 2006 6:23 PM

Submissive is good...sometimes. If you are interested in getting what you want, you have to speak up every now and then. Men do like to be told what to do in bed, generally, as much as we like being able to direct what is going on. I do not really like the terms "submissive" and "dominant"...to me they denote S&M or wolf packs. I prefer give and take; find that it usually works out better.

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 9:32 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by SameErtia:
I believe in soul-mates.
But I also believe that we are not always destined to be together in any particular lifetime, that as souls working our way up the enlightenment ladder we often have to be apart to learn the lessons presented to us.
I try not to spend my life wondering when I will find the person to complete me, and focus instead on being complete as I am. Does that make any sense?

Makes perfect sense to me.
I like the idea of soul mates, and I've found many people who seem to complete me, though not all have been lovers, but so many of those relationships have fallen apart that I wonder. I think "soul ties" might be a better description.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 9:46 PM

KHYRON

Quote:
Originally posted by lysander:
Besides, sometimes guys don't get the whole hinting thing.

I never get it...

. Every time I think "Hmm, was she hinting?" I immediately also think "Nah, I shouldn't read too much into it, I don't want to seem desperate."

Other people can occasionally be useful, especially as minions. I want lots of minions.

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Friday, May 5, 2006 10:01 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Now I've read more of this... hope I can remember what all was talked about.
Kissing? I can't get enough of it. It shouldn't even always lead to something else, I just love being kissed. And petted and hugged and massaged. Contact is very, very important to me. It soothes me and makes me feel loved. I have yet to find a partner who touches me enough (though now I'm single again, so maybe I'll get lucky).
Submissive and dominant are terms that I, too, have an issue with. I don't think either should be one or the other, but that there should be a trade off. No sense in just one of you doing all the work! (in any area, not just the bedroom) What's the point of a partnership if one is in control and the other isn't? No, trading off is good.
I usually approach wanting to have something done in a question form. "Would you kiss down my spine?" It tends to work quite well.
Cooking... I like to cook okay, but if I had to do it all the time I would go monkeyshit. I would like a partner who could cook.
Driving. Ah, there's a touchy subject. Honestly, there are very few people I am comfortable with driving me around. My most recent boyfriend was a very good driver and never made me nervous, but he was an exception. And I could get scientific with you, because aparently there are stats on these things: female drivers are responsible for 80% of fender benders. Male drivers are responsible for 77% of accidents in which the car was totaled or someone was injured. So which gender has worse drivers? I say it's about even in the "distraction" department, but men must drive too fast if they total more cars. Though I have met women who do that, too. Personally? I'm usually in the drivers seat. It prevents nerves.
Things that annoy me about men? They (generally) are not in touch with how they feel or why. Either that or refuse to say anything about it. I hate that. I like to know what's going on. I like to have reasons for behavior, be it good or bad. Most times if I ask "Well, but why do you feel this way?" I don't get an answer, I get an "I dunno." which really frustrates me. Seriously. I could rant about it for pages, so I'll just stop here.
Trying to come up with a question of my own to ask... I know I should have some but just can't think of them right now...

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 12:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Things that annoy me about men? They (generally) are not in touch with how they feel or why. Either that or refuse to say anything about it. I hate that. I like to know what's going on. I like to have reasons for behavior, be it good or bad. Most times if I ask "Well, but why do you feel this way?" I don't get an answer, I get an "I dunno." which really frustrates me. Seriously. I could rant about it for pages, so I'll just stop here.

LOL, and that's usually one of the things that bug me about women :P Always wanting to know how we're feeling...

To be perfectly honest, half the time I myself don't know exactly how I feel about alot of things, much less why :) I always know I'm headed for a heap of trouble when she starts wanting to talk about our "relationship..."

Maybe it's just a guy thing, or maybe it's even just me, but I'm usually pretty conflicted about most things in life. Talking it out all the time just muddies the waters. If I know how I feel, I'll tell you, or show you. If you ask how I feel, and I say "I dunno," it's usually 'cause I don't :P (Once again, this is right after a day of work, so I don't even know it that makes sense...:)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 12:57 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by nuclearday:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Things that annoy me about men? They (generally) are not in touch with how they feel or why. Either that or refuse to say anything about it. I hate that. I like to know what's going on. I like to have reasons for behavior, be it good or bad. Most times if I ask "Well, but why do you feel this way?" I don't get an answer, I get an "I dunno." which really frustrates me. Seriously. I could rant about it for pages, so I'll just stop here.

LOL, and that's usually one of the things that bug me about women :P Always wanting to know how we're feeling...

To be perfectly honest, half the time I myself don't know exactly how I feel about alot of things, much less why

That figures. So then let me ask you this: If you break up with someone, abruptly and without warning, stomp a heart under your heel, do you have a reason for that or do you honestly "don't know"? Because if that's the case I don't think I ever, ever want to date a man again.
Sorry, I'm a little bitter here. This just happened to me, so yeah. Seriously, though, give me an honest answer, I'd like to know.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 1:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
That figures. So then let me ask you this: If you break up with someone, abruptly and without warning, stomp a heart under your heel, do you have a reason for that or do you honestly "don't know"? Because if that's the case I don't think I ever, ever want to date a man again.
Sorry, I'm a little bitter here. This just happened to me, so yeah. Seriously, though, give me an honest answer, I'd like to know.

Ah, frell, you got me there... Actually, yes, I hate to say I've done that before.

Terribly long story about the how and why, etc... Looking back, not too proud of that time for a variety of reasons. Really, it wasn't so much about the relationship, or her, but a bunch of crap I was going through at the time. "It's not you, it's me!" :)

Now that I've "grown up" a bit more, it really bugs me seeing guys treat their girls like that. I may have trouble articulating where our relationship is going, or just how I feel about it. But if I'm with someone, it's 'cause that's where I want to be.

I've since learned that it's about respect. If I'm with someone, I owe it to her to let her know if I think it's not working out. There's a fine line between just plain confused and conflicted, and holding back what needs to be said.

(BTW, with me, most of the conflict is usually based on fear. The whole commitment-phobia thing, for one. Letting people "in.") Not generally so much about whether I should leave a relationship, but more along the lines of: "Oh,

, what the frell do I do now?" sort of thing :)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 1:38 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by nuclearday:
Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
That figures. So then let me ask you this: If you break up with someone, abruptly and without warning, stomp a heart under your heel, do you have a reason for that or do you honestly "don't know"? Because if that's the case I don't think I ever, ever want to date a man again.
Sorry, I'm a little bitter here. This just happened to me, so yeah. Seriously, though, give me an honest answer, I'd like to know.

Ah, frell, you got me there... Actually, yes, I hate to say I've done that before.

Terribly long story about the how and why, etc... Looking back, not too proud of that time for a variety of reasons. Really, it wasn't so much about the relationship, or her, but a bunch of crap I was going through at the time. "It's not you, it's me!" :)

Now that I've "grown up" a bit more, it really bugs me seeing guys treat their girls like that. I may have trouble articulating where our relationship is going, or just how I feel about it. But if I'm with someone, it's 'cause that's where I want to be.

I've since learned that it's about respect. If I'm with someone, I owe it to her to let her know if I think it's not working out. There's a fine line between just plain confused and conflicted, and holding back what needs to be said.

(BTW, with me, most of the conflict is usually based on fear. The whole commitment-phobia thing, for one. Letting people "in.") Not generally so much about whether I should leave a relationship, but more along the lines of: "Oh, , what the frell do I do now?" sort of thing :)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

Well, I guess that's honest.
And I hope this doesn't offend you, but my ex said many things along the lines of "I owe it to my partner to tell her if it's not working out" and the like; he claimed honesty and directness were important to him. Want to know what he did? He stopped calling me and after a couple weeks wrote me an e-mail telling me that he couldn't be with me anymore. His "reasoning" was so half-assed it couldn't stand up straight, and I don't think I have to tell you that I have never, ever been so angry. I won't go into it all here because my post would get too long.
So it's well and good that you can say you've learned and it's about respect and all; but too many people in this world (people of both genders, I admit) just don't walk their talk. I hope you do.
Here's a related question; if you're just confused or have a lot of go se happening, why can't you just say so? Why can't you ask for help getting through it from someone who is supposed to be your partner? I'm sorry, but that just seems very... well, dumb. I like having people in my life I can turn to; I would never push someone away for reasons that had nothing to do with them. Really, it seems dumb. Does the male brain work differently here? Is there any reason for it? Really, this is helpful. Be honest with me, men!

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 3:08 AM

I think for a lot of us guys, emotions knock us over. Our brains literally go into neutral. I once had a girl telling me that they were feeling a strong attraction and yet I didn't work out what they meant until 5 minutes after the conversation had finished.

Mal put it quite nicely, Inara "fogs things up". Even though Mal is a straight forward 'if the wind blows North, that's where he goes' kind of guy, that woman makes him lose his sense of direction, even if he didn't steer with it anyway.

I don't want to say too much about my girl but she does that to me. Sends me spinning. Makes me pulse soar, just by the look on her face.

Best feeling in the world.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 8:59 AM

PhoenixRose,
Glad to see you!
I think most men are guilty of having ended a relationship without a complete, thorough explanation of why things did not work out. However, I have had one or two females do the same to me. This mostly happens through high school and into college, although there are some men out there who keep it up all their lives. There does come a time in some relationships where the best thing to do is get the hell out,preferably right now. Even this deserves some explanation...I do agree that an email was NOT the best way to handle a break up.

Yes, males are wired differently. We generally don't like to muddy up a relationship with a lot of minor problems. If we are confused, we generally don't know that we are supposed to talk about it

, that is why we are confused!
Seriously, though, I can't speak for all males, but there are times when I just need to work out a problem for myself. I am sure the same goes for you. What this means is I don't want to talk about it. I am not mad at you, there is nothing wrong with us, I just need to work some things out. That last statment used to cause a lot of trouble for me, and it may have set you off, too. I have learned NOT TO USE that statment anymore!
It also helps if we are in a relationship wherein we completely trust our partner. Trust goes a long wat to loosening our tongues and allowing us to let you into our problems. A fully trusting relationship is hard to come by, but they are wonderful when they happen.

Damn, can't believe I typed all that out...hope that helps, or if it raises more questions, please let me know, I will answer the best I can.

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 9:32 AM

DAYVE

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Things that annoy me about men? They (generally) are not in touch with how they feel or why.

hi, let me take a shot at this.... First, let me ask if you or anyone here has seen or heard of Rob Becker's 'Defending the Caveman'?.. In fact, i haven't seen his show myself, but was told about it by some friends who caught a performance in Dallas... and i've read a few reviews - here's a quote from Variety....

For ninety minutes, Becker proceeds, with compassion as well as humor, to outline the idea that there are real reasons for our differences, possibly even genetic reasons whose origins are buried in the millennia of human evolution; and instead of judging the opposite sex according to one's own gender based standards, it is possible to recognize the differences and accept them without hostile judgment. - Leslie Bennetts

i bring this up because i think he touches on the subject of the differences in the nature of men and women.... and maybe there is something to the idea that the sexes have evolved along different and distinct paths of what each feels is their role in life. The man feels it is his purpose to provide and defend (usually in a somewhat stoic and unconsolatory manner - that is, his actions speak louder than words..)
And the woman tends to be nurturing and inquisitive...

Ok, i'm more than likely way off base here, and please don't read anything into this before i can fully explain my thought,(and this is just a thought i've had while reading the posts on this subject)....I do know men who are very in touch with their emotions, they are sensitive to the emotions of others and very open about expressing their feelings... Know what..those men are gay. Please don't misunderstand me when i say that. I'm not saying it in a disrespectful manner. It comes from my own experience. I'm a heterosexual man. I do, however, have friends who are homosexual and in fact, one of my best friends from childhood struggled with his own idenity until he was almost 20. I can tell you that he is one of the best men I know today.

The point i'm trying to make (and badly, i'm afraid), is that perhaps the genetic makeup of the different sexes plays some part in how men and women deal with each other.

sorry for the length of this response... i thought twice before posting it and then decided that at least it might stir the conversation a bit..

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 9:40 AM

SimonWho's, Dayve's and Tristan's responses are pretty apt, I think.

LOL, I'm sitting here trying to think of a way to describe it, and I still can't get it all untangled in a meaningful way :) Can't say it's a universal trait for all guys, just my own personal experience.

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
if you're just confused or have a lot of go se happening, why can't you just say so? Why can't you ask for help getting through it from someone who is supposed to be your partner? I'm sorry, but that just seems very... well, dumb. I like having people in my life I can turn to; I would never push someone away for reasons that had nothing to do with them. Really, it seems dumb. Does the male brain work differently here? Is there any reason for it? Really, this is helpful. Be honest with me, men!

To an extent: it's nice and safe inside my "shell." Being alone with my problems is still a type of pain, but at least it's one I know, and there's a measure of comfort there. Sticking my head out, metaphorically, invites the unknown, and that's scary.

Also, it's a survival instinct to act like everything is okay when it isn't? I open up to someone about my problems, that'd be admitting something was wrong. Again, that would mean stepping out of my "comfort zone." :)

Hmm... guess that's about as close as I can get to explaining it. Again, can't speak to the gender as a whole, just speaking from where I come from.

I hope I don't repeat the pattern again, be an ass-hat and just run away. But that just adds to the baggage, as well. I spend too much time worrying, and I'll be right back doing the same things in my current relationship. (Gorramn it, now I think I'd better bring my girlfriend some flowers tomorrow, and try to be a little more communicative :)

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 11:24 AM

COPILOT

I've thought about it some more and the closest thing to my soul mate I've ever met would probably be my best friend. But we're kind of like a peanut butter and peanut butter sandwhich. Very much a like in many ways and different enough in others. Kind of like cruchy peanut butter and smooth peanut butter I guess. I don't think we could ever really be in a romantic relationship thou. Oh who am I kidding we're going to end up 60 years old married in our rocking chairs drinking beer out of mason jars and pointing and laughing at eachother.

Um on the issue of kissing. I love making out like a horny high school kid. But enjoy the build up to the first kiss the most. Kissing my back is a sure way to get me all sorts of crazy for you.

I've never gotten so much as a parking ticket but Significant Other still feels the need to act like I'll crash his car in 10 seconds whenever I drive it. I think that was most of what was discussed.

Oh and the feelings thing. I know men go into their cave when they're upset and it's not always my fault but I still think it is most of the time. (Yes Significant Other forced me to read Men are from Mars Women are from Venus)

Also I hate gossip! I hate when people say mean things about someone else to me! But every so often I relize that I do it too and that really bugs me.

An I carried such a torch

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 11:54 AM

NCBROWNCOAT

Talk about bitterness. I didn't even get the "it's me, not you." speech, just divorce papers appearing at my Mom's house 3 days after I had come to visit for a few weeks. The divorce paperwork had to have been done before I left town and he didn't have the courage to even mention it me before I left. Found out later that he had been seeing someone for months and they married as soon as the divorce was final.

We still don't talk at all and he hasn't seen his daughter (his choice) in years and has really hurt my daughter.

I have no respect for what he did and looking back it's made me a bit committment phobic. It's a wonder I even trust men at all now.

One summer.
One mission
One army of Browncoats.

We aim to misbehave until from July 23 until September 30.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 11:58 AM

PINGJING

Well, I suppose I have to step up and provide evidence that it's not just the guys who break hearts. I broke up with my boyfriend a few months ago. Actually, our relationship addresses the soulmate question too - when I first met him, it was so easy to talk to him that I thought he was perfect for me. I wouldn't have used the word soulmate, but he did. I can't describe exactly how our relationship evolved from there, but it ended with me realizing that I didn't love him, didn't feel attracted to him, and hated myself for feeling that way. The moment I realized that I was sure about this, I had to tell him. (Even though it was a week before Valentine's Day, which made me feel even more like a schmuck.) But I wasn't sure for a long time, and for those weeks, he thought everything was ok between us. I did tell him in person, though, not e-mail. I hope I at least get points for that.

I'm not really trying to disprove the stereotype that women are more open with their feelings, but emotional maturity is much more complex than being based on gender. It's something we develop by having relationships and making mistakes.

Julia

One day.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://serenityjune23rd.com/

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 12:09 PM

COPILOT

Well at least you had the courage to actually tell him you were breaking up. The only boyfriend I ever had before Significant other never got any sort of hint. I just kind of up and moved a couple of hundred miles away.

An I carried such a torch

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 12:45 PM

PINGJING

It was terrifying, Copilot, let me tell you. I had to take an hour train ride to get to his place - talk about building the tension! And then he wasn't even home from work yet...!
But on the way back, I was so glad it was over. It really sucks being unhappy in a relationship and not knowing what to do about it.

Julia

One day.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://serenityjune23rd.com/

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 12:48 PM

COPILOT

Sounds terrifing! I'm so much of a wuss when it comes to making people angry with me.

An I carried such a torch

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 1:52 PM

LWAVES

To Pingjing:
When you said that after you broke up you were glad it was over, to me that shows you made the right decision (although you'd obviously thought about it for a while). There is no point in sticking with someone you don't love.

My first girlfriend told me that she didn't love me anymore and she was going back to her home town in Ireland. It broke my heart but I was glad she was honest about it. I didn't like it but there it was. If she'd just upped and gone I think it would have crushed and scarred me for ever.

Thankfully I eventually ended up with a girl I simply adore (all romantic, lovey-dovey cliches apply). We've talked about soulmates and the whole spiritual connection thing and think there is something to it but not at a one-to-one level. We believe there is more than one possibility and it just takes the right set of circumstances to bring you together. Even then when circumstances change it isn't neccessarily going to last forever.

I just hope that everyone gets to experience what they could call true love coz it is a wonderful feeling.

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 5:46 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
I do know men who are a)very in touch with their emotions, b)they are sensitive to the emotions of others and c)very open about expressing their feelings... Know what..those men are d)gay

(extra letters in bold added by me)

Not to disagree with your point at all, as I think your observation is a fair one, but to provide a counter example that may be of some interest/significance:

I'm a heterosexual male and I'm pretty sure I qualify for a) (though not in a hormonal female way), definitely qualify for b), but not at all c) and not at all d)(wanted to reiterate).

'Why is he bringin this up, other than to brag about how sensitive he is?' I hear you ask (And I do, because of my sensitive nature

). Well, not to disagree with Dayve, as I said before, but because I think there can be different things that can come into play to determine how one person's brain develops.

I wouldn't say my 'genetic make up' is the governing factor in this case. For example I heard third hand about some study that suggests that babies who learn to talk later are more sensitive when they grow up. This isn't cause and effect but it does suggest something else at work. Which I suppose could be genetic after all... not in a X/Y chromosone way but a... highly evolved super-power way...

Hehe, nah, I wouldn't say that either. I think it's more nurture than nature in my case, was my original point

Anyway, sorry to get all psychological, a bit of a divergence from the original gripe with menfolk - people and what make them tick is an interest of mine

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 6:21 PM

PINGJING

Lwaves, you're such a romantic! I'm glad you've found someone to love. Thanks, by the way, for saying that I made the right decision. I know that, of course, but it's nice to hear it from someone else. Quells the self-doubt I feel every once in awhile.

So, here's something I've been wondering for awhile, and it seems this is the place to ask it, since I remember reading quite a few posts on flirting. I'm hopeless in that category - no skill whatsoever. So it's hard for me to let a guy know I like him. Sometimes he knows, often he doesn't, and occasionally I get a creep who thinks being polite means being interested. So what I want to know is, how can you guys tell whether a girl likes you? Does it just take a hint of a smile, or do you wait for a more obvious sign?

Julia

One day.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

On June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.
http://serenityjune23rd.com/

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Saturday, May 6, 2006 6:56 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:
Talk about bitterness. I didn't even get the "it's me, not you." speech, just divorce papers appearing at my Mom's house 3 days after I had come to visit for a few weeks. The divorce paperwork had to have been done before I left town and he didn't have the courage to even mention it me before I left. Found out later that he had been seeing someone for months and they married as soon as the divorce was final.

We still don't talk at all and he hasn't seen his daughter (his choice) in years and has really hurt my daughter.

I have no respect for what he did and looking back it's made me a bit committment phobic. It's a wonder I even trust men at all now.

That is terrible. Terrible!

Well, there have been some very enlightening posts since I've been asleep. Yes, I acknowledge that men have a cave, etc and that there are genetic differences in how we develop/handle things, though there are exceptions to that rule. No, I don't think saying gay men are generally more in touch with their feelings is incorrect, but I don't think it's solely their genetics. Lemme 'splain: Nearly anyone who has to struggle with that kind of issue, with not being "normal" does a lot of self-exploration as a general rule. I have gone through this, so I'm not just blowing smoke here. So that exploring of emotion and what's going on and why can open up some avenues. This doesn't always hold true, but it does certainly seem to. So gay men are probably genetically disposed to being more emotional and "feminine" than the average man, but they also have been basically forced to get in touch with those emotions. I hope this makes sense to those who haven't gone through it.
So, where was I? Ah, yes, the cave. I understand there is a cave. I respected the cave. However when a man goes into his cave for two weeks and doesn't even quite come out of it to tel you he's dumping you, that's a little unreasonable to me.
I also understand that men don't want to feel "vulnerable" or whatever else, but what I don't understand is why. It's the trust thing. Trusting someone completely is one of the most beautiful things that can happen. Unless that trust is betrayed, then it sucks. But when there's trust on both sides, it doesn't tend to be betrayed, you see? It makes a relationship stronger. It is a good thing, IMO, and not something to be railed against and resisted.
And now I will give you my female perspective on the cave, so you can understand why it can be a strain on women. I'm not trying to tell you it's bad or wrong or anything, just give you my perspective on what drives me crazy about caves.
Okay, so here's the thing: when someone withdraws from me, and it's obvious they're withdrawing to work something out in their head, I start wondering what it is that's wrong. I worry about people I love, I want them to be okay. If something is wrong, I want to be able to help, or at least know that I'm not the cause of it. So, man goes into cave, I ask why he's there, he doesn't tell me, I wander away to brood. Yes, that is how it works. I brood, I wonder what could possibly be wrong, and since I have no solid information, my mind tends to fill in the blank with what? The worst case scenario. Don't make faces, that's just how it is. So my mind is swirling with this worst case scenario in it, and I'm even more worried than before, and he's still in his cave and still won't tell me what's wrong or talk to me at all, reinforcing the thoughts in my head that he is mad at me or I'm somehow the cause of his brooding, etc. This is not a good place to be.
So here's the kicker. Man finally comes out of cave, everything seems to be fine... I still never find out what it was he was thinking about so intently, or why it was I was being ignored. I still don't know if he was sitting in his cave thinking "Hmmm, should I really be with this woman?" So, I guess my point is; if I don't know what you're thinking and never find out, it worries me. So my friendly advice to any man in a relationship they want to keep is; when you go in your cave, tell us why, either before or after, so we can know it's not our fault. You don't even have to go into detail or talk it out with us. Something as simple as "Hey I had a bad day and I'm going into my cave for awhile" is really all it would take. Or "Hey, here's a summary of what I was thinking about while I ignored you, just so you know I wasn't ignoring you for something you did" would be good too. I am completely serious, here. It would not take as much effort as you might think to reassure your lady.
But for god's sake if you are thinking there's something wrong with the relationship, try to solve the problem with us before it makes you decide there's no hope. A breakup out of the blue caused by some problem we didn't know about is a very, very unhappy thing. You see the proof before you of how frustrated and snarky it can make a woman.

Sorry if that was atrociously long. I'll try not to be so bitter, but you know how it is. I actually feel quite a bit better now.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 12:41 AM

Just another of my two (and a half) cents:

PheonixRose, I think you have a good point about us menfolk needing to be a tad more reassuring and communicative. Whether or not I have a tendency to withdraw and such, I'll be the first to admit that it's not a quality I'm terribly happy with. I would like to think that if I were in a "perfect" and happy relationship, I'd be a little more open about my feelings and thoughts. Seeing as how I'm just beginning to see a girl I like, it's been on my mind a lot lately. Trying to be better, but it's not always so easy...

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
So, where was I? Ah, yes, the cave. I understand there is a cave. I respected the cave. However when a man goes into his cave for two weeks and doesn't even quite come out of it to tel you he's dumping you, that's a little unreasonable to me.

First off, I'm sorry to hear you were hurt that way. As someone who's actually done that before, I can honestly say that he really has no excuse. At the time, with me, I made a rationalization that it was somehow for her own good, and because I cared about her, wanted to save her pain or something, blah blah blah. (Like I said, it was a rationalization, not something anything like the real truth :) For what little consolation it may be worth: he likely didn't deserve you anyways, and if he couldn't come clean with you it doesn't sound like there was much hope for the relationship anyways.

One last thing on the subject of opening up to your partner. Something I thought of last night was the whole macho factor. I think I'm a fairly sensitive guy, so far as guys go (cry at movies, and the like.) But it still comes into play. It's the same reason we don't like to stop for directions. We're the ones who are supposed to be supporting everyone else. If we let that guard down, we lose our machismo. Years of phsycological reinforcement don't make that sort of thing easy to deal with. Hard to be the big, tough guy when you're admitting a weakness...

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 1:30 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by nuclearday:
For what little consolation it may be worth: he likely didn't deserve you anyways, and if he couldn't come clean with you it doesn't sound like there was much hope for the relationship anyways.

*Siiiigghh* Yes, you are correct. I try not to let the catch-22 of "Oh, but if only he had been able to come clean with me..." run through my head too much because I know it doesn't help. Obviously there were problems. I thought we had been doing pretty good, and that he did deserve me because he really did treat me pretty well. Up until the punching, it was a real nice party. But I knew we had a few issues and it would be up to him if they got resolved or not.I'm betting there were some issues I didn't even pick up on, too. Anyway he made his call. So yes, there was no hope. Obviously. But however many times I say "I'm better off" or "He really didn't deserve me" or "There's nothing more I could have done" it never takes away the sense of loss. I wouldn't have been with him as long as I was if there wasn't something good there. The hard part about that is that he really left me wondering if the something good was just all in my head, because he acted like the whole two-year run had really been... well, nothing. I know there was something there, I know what happened, but it's like he forgot.
GAH! I'm whining again! Stopit!
Thank you for the consolation. The more I hear it, the more likely it is to sink in.

Quote:
One last thing on the subject of opening up to your partner. Something I thought of last night was the whole macho factor. I think I'm a fairly sensitive guy, so far as guys go (cry at movies, and the like.) But it still comes into play. It's the same reason we don't like to stop for directions. We're the ones who are supposed to be supporting everyone else. If we let that guard down, we lose our machismo. Years of phsycological reinforcement don't make that sort of thing easy to deal with. Hard to be the big, tough guy when you're admitting a weakness...

Yes, I understand that. I've always felt that general society has poisoned many good men and that it's a damn shame. I personally think the wall called machismo is the least attractive thing possible and really just gets in the way. I know there are women who think otherwise, and I think they're morons. Holding either gender to unreasonable standards is just ridiculous. Women are not all going to be built to specifications, nore are they all going to be perfect mothers, nor should they be expected to be anything other than themselves. Men, likewise are not going to be built to specifications, nor are they going to be rock-like and all-knowing in every situation and that shouldn't be expected either. If someone really wants a partnership, unreasonable expectations do not come into play. Being vulnerable or "weak" or not 100% perfect around someone who loves you should not make someone feel bad. I do think this came into play with my relationship, and that's just a shame. He'd been vulnerable in ways that didn't make him feel weak (and seemed to enjoy that imensely) but a short hospital stay and pretty soon he's keeping me at arm's length. Ridiculous.
I believe there is nothing more important than being happy in this 'verse. Letting unreasonable expectations get in the way of happiness is the most foolish thing we as humans do. I know it's not easy to overcome what we feel is expected of us; but you know, I've done it so I know it's possible. And I would never undo it. Hiding myself only led to trouble, and I've been much happier since I just let that go. It was very freeing.
I can be a strong, supportive presence, and I am far from macho. Strong and supportive is good, machismo is not. No one knows everything, and no one is immune to everything. Just saying it probably won't convince anyone, but trust me. A whole, real person is far more attractive in the long run. At least to me. And every intelligent person I've ever spoken to in my life. Even those who claim they can't be it still want to have it. I'm not sure I understand that, either, but it is the case.
So yeah, it is hard to be a tough guy when you're admitting any weakness, but I don't think that should be mistaken for a bad thing.
So there's another two cents on the table. I, uh, hope I wasn't too heavy-handed there. This subject is a bit close to me at present.

I try to lighten the mood... with tongue!

There, now you all know I do still have a silly side!

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 1:51 AM

I think part of him treating the whole 2 years like it didn't happen is men have trouble remembering how they used to feel. After the loving feeling goes, they tend to be very "I was in love with her? Why?" and just shrug off how they used to feel. I think women can remember better how passionate it was and that makes it harder for them.

I know it's not easy but men need caves. We also need to left alone in our caves. It's important to know that if there's something we want to work out and you offer to help, a man can take that to mean "You're an idiot, let me think for you" which doesn't help. Plus of course sometimes the thoughts we have in our caves shouldn't be shared, even with our nearest and dearest. You don't come back from girl's nights and tell us everything, do you?

The worst one is if we're going to our cave to decide if we want to continue with our relationship, for both people involved. I'm sure it must have been terrible to just be surprised with that.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 2:04 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
I think part of him treating the whole 2 years like it didn't happen is men have trouble remembering how they used to feel. After the loving feeling goes, they tend to be very "I was in love with her? Why?"

...

You may have just convinced me to only date women for the rest of my life.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 2:11 AM

Another one? Damnit, I should get royalty fees from The National Association of Lesbians.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 2:17 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

No, I'm actually bi, so I wouldn't technically count as a lesbian, I just might never date another man. Doesn't mean I wouldn't ever be attracted to them, just not really wanting to experience that attitude ever again.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 3:49 AM

Well, not every man is like that and it's not an "attitude" really, more a difficulty in temporal empathy. It's like opening your wardrobe and trying to remember why you used to like those shoes so much.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:16 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Hey, I have never lost my love for a pair of shoes! Every time I have had to part from a pair of shoes I have been sad and wished that they hadn't worn out.
And call it what you will, when you're on the recieving end of it, it certainly feels like an attitude.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:36 AM

That's my point: men wouldn't get that sense of emotional connectivity. It's one of our Martian things.

I get that it's stupid though. Particularly when it's husbands who, after a twenty year marriage, say "I just don't feel the same way about you anymore" and expect that to be it.

Is there a good way to be dumped? Obviously, in person, yes but beyond that? Cliches... ugh. Telling the other person how wonderful they are... but... ugh.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 5:59 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

No, there is no "good way" to be dumped, but there are "better ways" to be dumped.
Telling someone you don't want to hurt them or think they're a wonderful person? Bad way to start. You are going to hurt them, so saying you don't want to is just confusing and, well, a lie. Lies are bad. Pretty much any "white lie" I've been told in an attempt to soften the blow has just pissed me off. Don't tell white lies. Lies are bad.
"I just don't feel the same anymore."
Bad. Ok, to you it may be true, but to a woman it doesn't make sense. And I seriously doubt it's just that simple. There is usually a reason for things falling apart. Even in your example of 20 years of marriage: It could be something as stupid as "You used my gorram razor to shave your legs one too many times and it made me crazy!" but there is usually a reason behind the "just not feeling the same" it's just a matter of sucking it up and admitting it.
For me, a breakup would be easier if I could learn something from it. Really. Maybe not all women are like this, but I really am. If there was something that drove someone away from me, I want to know what it was so I can try to improve, so maybe the next relationship will go better. It's going to hurt no matter what, so I may as well get some kind of benifit from it.
"It's just not working out because..." (enter whatever reasons apply here) is really the best way I can think of to be dumped. It's not pretty, it's not sugar coated, but it's honest. I have broken up with one person in my life and this is what I used for them. I said, "It's really not working out because you seem to think I'm this way or should be that way and really I'm this way and you get twitchy about that so I don't feel you accept me and it's really snuffed out all the feelings I have for you." I don't know if he learned anything from that or not, but I gave him honesty, so I don't have to look back and feel ashamed of myself for jerking someone around.
So no, there's really no good way to be dumped, but a straightforward and honest dump beats a sugar-coated, not-you-it's-me, I-really-do-care-about-you-even-though-I'm-tearing-your-heart-out dump.
But that's just me. Some people don't mind being lied to.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:26 AM

Just a random thought, on the subject of being "dumped," and maybe I'm reading too much into things here, and often it's hard to separate what may be a difference between people, and a gender divide as a whole:

Not to say that I haven't learned (or at least attempted to :) from my past failed relatioships. But, save for the occasions where I know it was mostly my fault, I've attributed them ending to just irreconcilable differences between us. Most times, it wasn't anyone's doing, it just didn't work out or we didn't have much chemistry to begin with, etc...

I've noticed here and in past experience, a tendency for women to wonder about what they did "wrong." Or at least that's how my addlepated male brain percieves it :P

Is this possibly another difference between men and women, or am I just confused again?

In other words, when I'm coming out of a relationship, not that it's in any way easy, I usually figure it was bound to happen at some point. But I notice in the women more often than not thinking that there must have been something they could have to done to save the relationship. Or am I just being a chauvanist? :P

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 6:52 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Erm, well, you might have something there.
See, though, it's never a chemistry thing with me. Believe me, I have yet to be in a relationship that didn't have good chemistry. And, while it possibly has been irreconcilable differences, that's never been my impression. That's part of my problem with the out of the blue dump, as I have been complaining, because we didn't seem to be having any problems. One week we're fine and the next not so much does not say "irreconcilable differences" to me.
So, since it's never struck me as being either of those things... Well, yes, I suppose I usually do think there had to have been a way to save it. Not to be a reverse chauvanist here, but maybe it's because women get more attached? I haven't ever wanted relationships to end when I didn't end them, so I have wanted to save them, and nothing had made me believe they couldn't be saved.
But, when saving them depends on a man who thinks it's unavoidable that it ends... No, I'm sorry, that's not very nice of me. But it might be true. If women want to save something and men figure it's just over, then it's ultimately over because the man didn't want to save it. Is that logical to anyone else?

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 7:40 AM

'Course my own viewpoints might just be 'cause most of my relatioships have tended to end due to personality conflicts of some form or another. Alot of times we'd get along just fine as friends, but found we really didn't have enough in common to really be spending all that much time together. (Plus I understand I can be downright hard to live with at times :)

Far as this guy who up and dumped you with no stated reason (and just reiterating that there's really no good justification for that short of being a secret agent or something...) Seems like if there was any chance of saving the relationship, it would have had to come from his end. Doesn't sound to me like there was really very much you could have done, or even that you were doing anything wrong.

Back to the "cave" metaphor: Sure, it's a source of conflict at times. But I can hardly fault a girl for caring about what's going on in my head.

Side effect, of course, of bottling up all those tricky emotions: Maybe on the surface everything seemed fine. But I'd bet he was having doubts about the relationship for some time and just not coming clean about it. In my case, that was what happened. We'd actually broken up a couple times before it all totally fell apart. A part of me wanted to make it work, still, and thought that if I acted like everything was hunky-dory for long enough that it would become so. Obviously, that's a pretty wrong way to look at things though :P

If that was the case, though, I'd call that "irreconcilable differences" certainly.

________________________________________________
You can take my hope when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers. (Or if Kaylee asks me nicely...)

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Sunday, May 7, 2006 11:44 PM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by nuclearday:

Far as this guy who up and dumped you with no stated reason (and just reiterating that there's really no good justification for that short of being a secret agent or something...) Seems like if there was any chance of saving the relationship, it would have had to come from his end. Doesn't sound to me like there was really very much you could have done, or even that you were doing anything wrong.

Back to the "cave" metaphor: Sure, it's a source of conflict at times. But I can hardly fault a girl for caring about what's going on in my head.

Side effect, of course, of bottling up all those tricky emotions: Maybe on the surface everything seemed fine. But I'd bet he was having doubts about the relationship for some time and just not coming clean about it. In my case, that was what happened. We'd actually broken up a couple times before it all totally fell apart. A part of me wanted to make it work, still, and thought that if I acted like everything was hunky-dory for long enough that it would become so. Obviously, that's a pretty wrong way to look at things though :P

If that was the case, though, I'd call that "irreconcilable differences" certainly.

...You know, it's real nice to get a male perspective on this.
Obviously we did have irreconcilable differences; I just wasn't made aware of them. Guess that's what I was so stuck on. It makes a little more sense to me now. Not, you know, a lot... But seems that most emotional logic isn't really logical, so trying to make logical sense of it really wasn't working.
This really helps me out. Thank you.

And it's nice to hear you don't fault us for wanting to know what's in your head.

Would women be believed if we said "I don't think you're a moron who needs me to solve your problems for you, I just wanna know what's going on."? Cuz that's the truth. Maybe I should just try saying that next time around.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 3:53 AM

Good morning! I am glad to see this is turning into a constructive thread!

PhoenixRose, I would like to find however it was that hurt you and toss them into an engine. Slowly (although I am not sure that is possible...I think you get my intent).

Now, to address some of your posts:
Chemistry...how do you define this? As a male, when I see chemistry, it usually relates to pheromones, hormones, and those happy little fireworks that go off in your brain. And, yes, sexual compatibility. It is also a highly visibile indicator that two people are together for a reason. The whole "love bird" thing, I guess you could say. Chemistry is wonderful, but sadly, it can fade away.

I am not really sure if there are many people out there that wanted a relationship to end if they did not end it themselves. But, if you know for certain that a relationship will no longer work, no matter how hard you try to "fix" it, would you still want to try? Generally, the person being broken up with thinks they are doing something wrong, and that they can repair any damage done. This is, unfortunately, not always the case. The one doing the breaking has reached a point where they can no longer tolerate the relationship, and the only alternative is to escape. Fight or flight reaction, ingrained in the caveman.

But yes, males who are on the receiving end feel the same way; "what could I have done to keep her", or "what did I do to lose her"? Well, I am that way; again I can't speak for all males.

Alright, enough for first thing Monday morning...I hope I am helping further the understanding, and not just muddying the water further.

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 4:42 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:

PhoenixRose, I would like to find whoever it was that hurt you and toss them into an engine. Slowly (although I am not sure that is possible...I think you get my intent).

Awwww, thanks.

You want his address?

Quote:

Now, to address some of your posts:
Chemistry...how do you define this? As a male, when I see chemistry, it usually relates to pheromones, hormones, and those happy little fireworks that go off in your brain. And, yes, sexual compatibility. It is also a highly visibile indicator that two people are together for a reason. The whole "love bird" thing, I guess you could say. Chemistry is wonderful, but sadly, it can fade away.

Ummmmm, yes, that is how I define chemistry as well. I don't mean to sound shallow here, but a relationship without that is just a friendship. Not to say I don't like friendships, I like them quite a lot. But a romantic relationship pretty much requires attraction and pheromones and sexual compatability. I have often said that if you aren't having sex, you really are just friends. Attraction and desire always come into play. I have not had a romantic relationship without that. And believe me when I say the chemistry has never been the first thing to go. I will try not be be crude here, but my ex and I were having mind-blowing sex up until the day he stopped talking to me. This was not our problem. I have only theories as to what our problem in fact was, but I can say that lack of chemistry was not it.

Quote:
I am not really sure if there are many people out there that wanted a relationship to end if they did not end it themselves.

There are complete chickens in the world who wait for a relationship to die but can't end it themselves. There are also times when it's something close to a mutual decision. I just don't tend to function that way.

Quote:
But, if you know for certain that a relationship will no longer work, no matter how hard you try to "fix" it, would you still want to try?

No, not really. the "certain" thing is easy to get hung up on though. Obviously at this point I can be certain that I would never trust him again and therefore a relationship would not work (this, of course, if he ever decides to try reconciling with me) but at the time of ending I was massively confused as to what wasn't working here. I most certainly was not certain that it wouldn't work, which is why I wanted to know what was wrong before it was too late. He didn't tell me. It is now much too late. Yeah.

Quote:
Generally, the person being broken up with thinks they are doing something wrong, and that they can repair any damage done. This is, unfortunately, not always the case. The one doing the breaking has reached a point where they can no longer tolerate the relationship, and the only alternative is to escape. Fight or flight reaction, ingrained in the caveman.

Well, that exactly hits on why you might feel you drive someone away, doesn't it? Wonder why it is they can no longer "tolerate" being with you? Even if it's something that can't be fixed, it can be applied as a learning experience in future relationships.

Quote:

But yes, males who are on the receiving end feel the same way; "what could I have done to keep her", or "what did I do to lose her"? Well, I am that way; again I can't speak for all males.

Well, good to know. At least I'm not the only one.
And thank you for restoring a little of my faith in the male half of the species.

I'm sure you noticed how badly it was shaken. Still, probably won't date again for awhile.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 4:51 AM

PhoenixRose, no problem at all! Thank you for your responses as well. I am sorry that you were hurt and that your trust in males has suffered. There are those of us out here who do not think like "typical" males, and we cringe every time one of us does something stupid and enrages a female against out entire sex. So, we go out into the world, and try to spread tolerance and understanding in the wake of the idiots. We also have a secret society that tracks down the worse transgressors and eliminate them from the gene pool.

Alright, let's see if we can lighten things up a little, bring some smiles instead of anger...

On the subject of perfume and colonge...when is it too much? Also, is there a favorite scent anyone finds completely irresistible on the opposite sex?

Holding until you get back, Captain.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 5:04 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tristan:
PhoenixRose, no problem at all! Thank you for your responses as well. I am sorry that you were hurt and that your trust in males has suffered. There are those of us out here who do not think like "typical" males, and we cringe every time one of us does something stupid and enrages a female against out entire sex. So, we go out into the world, and try to spread tolerance and understanding in the wake of the idiots. We also have a secret society that tracks down the worse transgressors and eliminate them from the gene pool.

Again, good to know.

So where do I find those of you who don't think like typical males? Or is it the "have to kiss a lot of frogs" problem that can just never be solved?

Quote:

Alright, let's see if we can lighten things up a little, bring some smiles instead of anger...

On the subject of perfume and colonge...when is it too much? Also, is there a favorite scent anyone finds completely irresistible on the opposite sex?

For me personally if it is chemical based, it is always too much. I have a delicate nose and it tends not to be able to get past the nasty base smell to the possibly nice smell it's pretending to be. Essential oils, however, smell wonderful, and it only takes a little bit to last a long time and have a decently strong smell in most cases. I love them.
I can't say I favor just one smell. Everyone has different body chemistry, etc. so different scents are good on different people. Some people smell good wearing a sweet scent, some a spicy one, some one that combines the two. I wear flower or fruit scents, and ironically my namesake (rose) seems to smell the most irresistable on me. Tearose, to be exact, is my favorite scent on my personally. My ex who I have been complaining of always smelled heavenly to me; he wore vanilla oil, sometimes sandalwood vanilla. He smelled like candy and I just wanted to eat him up! But anyway, different scents smell good on different people. I can't wear my mom's perfume, which is poppy (commonly called opium) because it's too spicy for me, but it smells great on her. My stepdad weats patchuli, I think, and no one else I've ever met smells as good as he does wearing it. A friend of mine used to wear a scent called Night Queen which was just enchanting on her and really not the same on anyone else. Can you tell I'm obsessed with scents? Anyway, I just like people who smell good, and that is a matter of finding the right scent for you.

*************************************************
One summer.
One mission.
One legion of Browncoats.

Starting June 23rd, we aim to misbehave.

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Monday, May 8, 2006 5:19 AM