Talking around River by Hera

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Talking around River

POSTED BY: HERA
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 20, 2006 18:20
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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 4:36 PM

One of my favorite ponderables is how River relates to each crew member, since her personality is so...spry. Concerning her relationship (or non-relationship) with Mal, I find it interesting that he spends a lot of time talking about River, or discussing River in the third person when she's present, but he never actually speaks to her. I assume he does this to avoid the implication that he's responsible for her. Mal wants it clear to everyone that Simon is responsible, that he is the person most qualified to care for her -- as a doctor and as her brother.

Near as I can tell, the first time in the series that Mal speaks to River is in the last episode, OiS, when she finds the gun in the cargo bay. Mal says, as he's lunging down the stairs "River, sweetheart, you want nothing to do with that. Put it down." In the tense moments that follow, Mal says "I'm not mad. Just lemme...[grabs the gun] Thank you." The conversation that follows is a mixture of Mal discussing the situation to the room at large, and berating Simon. "Fully-loaded, safety off. This is a recipe for unpleasantness. Does she understand that?", once again reverting to speaking around her with her present. River breaks the wall, answering to Mal, even though the question was not directed towards her, but oddly, referring to herself in the third person "She understands. She doesn't comprehend." To which Mal replies ascerbicly "Well, I'm glad we've made that distinction. No. Touching. Guns." So, the silence is broken. This breaking is what, IMHO, makes OiS the crown jewel in the series.

River speaks to the crew [sans Jayne] during the rest of OiS, as she masterminds their rescue from Jubal. Mal plays a key role in that rescue, directed entirely by River. When River prepares to re-enter Serenity after she casts off Jubal's ship, Mal and River speak just to talk, the first time since they've met. Mal isn't chewing her out, or taking orders from her, or talking about or around her. In that short time, they basically tease each other. The effect is charming. And it's as if, until that moment, I had wondered what was off-kilter through the entire series, and now I realize what it was.

I find it simply amazing that 14 episodes elapsed without two principal charactors speaking to each other. Did Joss send out a memo to his writing staff "Mal never says word one to River. Ever." Or did the writers intrinsically understand that River was not supposed to be Mal's concern? Ever?

Since circumstances finally served Mal to speak to River in OiS, this may have influenced his decision to involve her in the bank heist in Lilac in the BDM. He no longer had to go through Simon concerning her. It's been said that the reason Mal "sank to a new low" concerning River was because he no longer had the mellowing influence of Book and Inara. I think that may be true, but the other forces at work could be considered just as compelling. Mal may have simply known that River was an asset in a tricky situation -- albeit a somewhat unpredictable asset. I think he realized River's strengths, much like he realized Kaylee's when he first met her. Looked at from a different angle, this "sinking to a new low" of endangering River could be viewed as a pragmatic weighing of people solely by their skills and assets, irregardless of gender. This pragmatism would be a valuable charactor trait in a soldier, as soldiers are repeatedly placed in life-threatening situations where they have to rely on each other to survive. Mal is, if anything, still a soldier.

This pragmatism is what Simon takes exception to when he attempts to dissuade Mal from involving River. "And that's your guiding star, isn't it? What's of use!" Well, to a soldier, yes. And thus the catalyst for the BDM is set in motion. Mal realizes River's usefulness, Simon disagrees, and the rest, as they say, is history.

I also think it interesting that Mal and River speak only twice in the BDM. At the beginning, when he asks her "Hey little one, you understand your part in all this?", her reply being "Do you?", and at the end, when Mal explains to the psychic his theory on love and ships, and also, probably, life.

-Hera

"Wanna?" – Mal to Kaylee, Out of Gas

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 4:45 PM

STILLFLYIN

Did Mal ever make physical contact with River before the flight from the bank during the reaver attack?

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:10 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hera:
I also think it interesting that Mal and River speak only twice in the BDM.

There's also the conversation on the bridge. Sure River's end was limited to cocking a gun and then saying Miranda but the gun cocking was very conversational.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:28 PM

MRSU

What makes it even uglier for me (Mal's decision to involve River in the heist) is that Mal was always very careful not to involve Inara in his dealings.

I watched Message yesterday and was struck by it. He can't sell Lassiter without Inara's help, but he is adamant about ever involving her with crime and giving her any trouble. So it is selfish of him and not just pragmatic - he does make exceptions to the soldger's pragmatism, but for his own, not for somebody else's, love. He has no qualms about involving a minor, and a troubled, disabled minor to boot, in a crime.

He deserved that punch.

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:49 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by mrsu:
He has no qualms about involving a minor, and a troubled, disabled minor to boot, in a crime.

He has qualms. They are just outweighed by the fact that the crew needs every edge it can get to survive in their current situation. Besides if the job goes south River is in trouble whether she goes along on the heist or not. No money no fuel. No fuel the ship don't go. Ship don't go the Alliance nabs them. QED.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 5:54 PM

SAMEERTIA

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:

There's also the conversation on the bridge. Sure River's end was limited to cocking a gun and then saying Miranda but the gun cocking was very conversational.

David

Thanks, Dave! My computer needed that mouthful of coffee in it's keyboard! :D

Beautiful dissection, Hera. Mostly thoughts I'd had but couldn't quite put into words.

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:25 PM

MRSU

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by mrsu:
He has qualms. They are just outweighed by the fact that the crew needs every edge it can get to survive in their current situation. ...QED

Oh-huh, didn't work with Inara.
Same situation, need every edge - but he refused to put her in trouble then. A bit hypocritical for me.

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 6:29 PM

HERA

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
There's also the conversation on the bridge. Sure River's end was limited to cocking a gun and then saying Miranda but the gun cocking was very conversational.

David

OMG, I completely forgot about that. Thank you, David! It's hilarious that he gives her this huge-ass, touching speech, and she doesn't even deign to reply. Kinda cocky, ya think?

Ouch. Sorry. Couldn't. Resist.

"Wanna?" – Mal to Kaylee, Out of Gas

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Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:36 PM

STDOUBT

Thanks Hera, really interesting topic!

I had not really noticed the major lack of
communication between Mal and River, probably
blowing it off by assuming since she's "a kid", that
she's really not worth conversing with (in Mal's view).
I do think throughout the series there are indications of a deeper connection between River and Mal. By no means am I a Mal&River shipper, but they
do have an undeniable connection despite the limited
conversing.
An example (maybe a directorial oversight/maybe intentional) is in 'Safe', when River freezes on the
dance stage. She clutches at the moment Mal sees Book has been shot. She didn't feel it though, at the time he was shot -only when Mal notices.
Also, in 'Ariel', after their escape from hospital security, I believe River was seeking out Mal. I doubt she could 'feel' that there was a doorway.
"Almost there, almost there..."
When she sees the door she says "There" -indicating Mal's rough location.
Mal's use of River in the Lilac job (BDM) shocked me. Another horrible event was when River and Simon were supposedly leaving on Beaumont. No one said good-bye to River. Joss must be a freaking genius if his intention was to drag out the maximum ammount of sympathy from the audience for River. It worked on me. She is without a doubt the most fascinating character I've ever seen on film. And damn Joss for giving us just enough of her (limited screen-time, limited lines) to leave us dying for more...
forever obsessed,

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Thursday, June 15, 2006 4:36 AM

MRSU

Yes, I also felt a connection, some kind of potential, between Mal and River. He is the one freeing her from the cryosleep and starting her new life. Then there's a moment in the pilot where he looks at her sleeping in infirmary - there's a lot of feeling there he normaly doesn't want to show.

Also in OiS there's a lot of symbolism in how River identified herself with the ship and called herself Serenity - and we know that Mal's greatest and foremost love IS Serenity, the ship.

There's more going on in BDM - River was the one to help Mal to find his redemption, find his way (and I'm sure that's true for Simon as well - but it was not shown on-screen, unfortunately, we are just shown that he is now able to get on with his life). And the last scene of the movie, Mal and River - well, it shows a bond between them, a spiritual bond.

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Thursday, June 15, 2006 4:40 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by mrsu:
Oh-huh, didn't work with Inara.
Same situation, need every edge - but he refused to put her in trouble then. A bit hypocritical for me.

Not quite the same situation. The Lassiter was a job that just dropped in their laps. Serenity is doing other jobs and getting by when they stumble across Saffron so anything they get for that job is just a bonus. On the other hand in Serenity they have had a string of rather disastrous failures leading up to the movie. (See the comic book for details.) They are much closer to the edge than they were in The Message and have to take bigger risks just to keep flying.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Thursday, June 15, 2006 4:50 AM

MRSU

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:

Not quite the same situation. The Lassiter was a job that just dropped in their laps.

Yes, and if Mal accepted Inara's help in fencing Lassiter they wouldn't be in such dire situation now (yes, I read the comics). They would be financially all set for many years. But he didn't want her sullied with crime, or jeopardize her in any way. He risked the rest of the crew instead, in the days to come. And he must have guessed that little River has been sullied and trumpled over enough, so who cares if she takes a bit more. Looks like a pretty cynical double standard to me. I'd add a good kick in the nuts (or two) to that punch.

It just shows that Mal was morally pretty deep down in the gutter in the beginning of the movie, but he finds his way up and out of there and finds his redemption in doing right by River, by risking everything for HER, this time.

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Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:00 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Hera:
OMG, I completely forgot about that. Thank you, David! It's hilarious that he gives her this huge-ass, touching speech, and she doesn't even deign to reply. Kinda cocky, ya think?

Also Mal's speach really hits the nail on the head for River. She knows she's been altered in a very big way and that she can't always control her own actions. So while she may hope at some time to be able to be 'just a kid' she really fears she never can be again. Of course the events of Serenity push her closer to being able to control herself and so closer to being able to lead a more normal life and be less of a threat to her adoptive family of space brigands. Which could coincidentally be said of Mal as well though his journey is not as dificult as River's.

Quote:
Ouch. Sorry. Couldn't. Resist.

Pun alert. Pun alert. Pun alert. Woooop. Woooop. Woooop.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Thursday, June 15, 2006 5:29 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by mrsu:
Yes, and if Mal accepted Inara's help in fencing Lassiter they wouldn't be in such dire situation now (yes, I read the comics).

You can't judge an act based on the consequences of unrelated circumstances. Not selling the Lassiter through Inara could not have lead to the long glut of paydays and there is no assurance that the Lassiter would have netted enough more from one of Inara's contacts than the fence they eventually must have used to have staved off a long streak of bad luck. Indeed it's possible that Mal in fact did eventually fence the goods through Inara. According to the novelization it was sold - providing the funds to purchase the shiney new hover mule - and if Inara wasn't the go between who was? 'The greatest score of my unseemly career and nobody will touch it.'

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Monday, June 19, 2006 7:36 AM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by mrsu:
Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:

Not quite the same situation. The Lassiter was a job that just dropped in their laps.

Yes, and if Mal accepted Inara's help in fencing Lassiter they wouldn't be in such dire situation now (yes, I read the comics). They would be financially all set for many years. But he didn't want her sullied with crime, or jeopardize her in any way. He risked the rest of the crew instead, in the days to come. And he must have guessed that little River has been sullied and trumpled over enough, so who cares if she takes a bit more. Looks like a pretty cynical double standard to me. I'd add a good kick in the nuts (or two) to that punch.

There's a world of difference between River's position on the ship and Inara's. Inara is an independent businesswoman who has contracted with the Captain of the ship to rent a shuttle. Her presence on the ship grants them "a certain...respectability" - opening doors that might otherwise be shut. River not only doesn't pay her fare, but her fugitive status shuts doors that would otherwise be open to them. Sympathy and Simon's doctoring were enough to cover her passage when her status was simply that of a dependant child, and that, I think, is a big part of why Mal's interaction with her was mostly through Simon. But River had, over the course of the series, established herself as more than a helpless child, deserving of a greater level of responsibility within their shipboard community. I see Mal's inclusion of her on the heist as not simply pragmatic, but also as respectful of River's role as a person, actual and whole.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:28 PM

ONTHEDRIFT

Wow I never really conciously realized that Mal and River never talked directly until OiS. I can't believe the anvil of that never hit me. Hmm, must go re-watch many episodes just because. I will second those with the opinion that Mal and River have some unspoken, undefined connection, perhaps as simple as an empathy due to how much the Alliance screwed with them. Just a testament to their great acting skills that this connection seemed evident to some of us despite the lack of "conversation". I have missed fffnet for reasons such as this, thanks for the lovely discussion and analyzing.

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Tuesday, June 20, 2006 3:37 PM

MORWEN112

I'm more inclined to agree with nosadseven on this one. I don't think he included River in the early BDM heist as just a tool. She had a talent that he could use, just as Jayne and Zoe have talents that he uses. But including her in the heist also means accepting her as part of his crew, to a certain extent. He makes sure that she makes it out of the bank and into the mule safely (ie- leading her out by the hand) and won't dump her in favor of the random desperate guy (though I don't think anyone really expected him to anyway).

I think there's a definite connection between River and Mal, though not romantic. I think River was able to see that Mal is really quite protective, especially towards young women, sort of like a big brother figure. We see this numerous times with Kaylee and it started to grow with River in Firefly, as seen in his teasing at the end of OiS. (It may have grown into more before BDM, if the show hadn't been so unceremoniously cut short by the

Fox execs.) Besides, as Jayne so often repeats, why doesn't he just throw Simon and River off the ship when he finds out about their fugitive status? It would most likely have made his life much easier. But he doesn't, because deep down, Mal isn't the hardened cut throat he wants people to think he is. Deep down, he still has that protective, big brother/sort of father type aspect to him. There's a moment in Safe, when River says something like, "Daddy will come take us home." We assume that she's gotten lost in her own reailty and she's talking about Gabriel Tam, but what if she isn't? If she associates Serenity with home, it's not too far fetched to say that she could associate Mal with a father-type figure. Another perfect examples of this, and one of my favourites, even if it doesn't apply to River, is the first dinner scene in the pilot of Serenity, when Jayne starts in on Kaylee's little crush. Mal's reaction ("Jayne, you'll keep a civil tongue in that mouth or I will sew it shut..." and then ordering him from the table) let us see just how "fatherly" he is towards people he feels needs that sort of protection.

Inara, however, is different. She's more of an equal to Mal. Whereas Kaylee and River are both younger and/or part of his crew, Inara is, presumably, closer in age to Mal than Kaylee or River, and not a member of the crew. And then there's that whole tension thing going on between the two. Personally, I think Joss was and is building towards some sort romance between them and that, again, plays into how Mal treats her differently from River. Besides, Inara's work is honest in that its perfectly legal. River's already a wanted fugitive, she might as well help with a bank heist too.

All in all, I think that it'll be really very interesting to see the relationship between Mal and River if and when another BDM and/or more Firefly comes about.

Mine is an evil sugar high laugh! Bwahahahaha!

Morwen

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Tuesday, June 20, 2006 6:20 PM

ONTHEDRIFT

My sister and I have long believed that the Daddy reference in Safe was referring to Mal, River is astute enough to recognize that no matter what image Mal projects and what he says, he has chosen to PROTECT River and Simon. However,as previous posters have noted, Mal is pragmatic - exactly as a soldier has to be. This is his reason for taking River along for the heist, they are at the edge, he has to finish this job and to do that he needs to take advantage of everything/everyone at his disposal. Just like everyone, Mal has a line, he's just slightly more willing to move it around a little if the situation requires it. He'd never involved River or Inara in jobs until it was absolutely necessary. In Trash he utilized Inara and implicated her in their illegal activities because he knew it would be necessary and didn't have any other options. When he refuses her help in The Message, it isn't purely on principle, he simply isn't that desperate yet, he thinks he might have other avenues to offload the Lassiter. (Inara would have been in just as much trouble for fencing it as she would have if the Alliance intercepted her when she was taking the Lassiter from YoSaffBridge) Does he want to protect everyone on Serenity especially Inara and River - yes, but he also can reach a point when logically he realizes that the survival of the majority might mean sacrificing or endangering a minority. The Battle of Serenity no doubt taught him that all too well. So while I understand Simon punching Mal when they get back from the heist, (I know I would've done that and more in his shoes)overall I don't think Mal involving River was that bad of a sin. It might show that his compass might be a little off - Inara and Book's departure definately have something to do with that. But Mal is for the most part a realist, he does what he has to do to ensure his and his crews' survival. A realist with a heart, or blind spots though - why else would he pick River up in the Maidenhead? While I don't recognize much of myself in Mal, I can understand his motivations because, unlike some of the characters, we have most of his backstory. (

you Fox)We understand the events that molded him into the man he was forced to become. If I was pushed to extremes I can't say I wouldn't do the same, can you?

Disclaimer: While I realize that I might seem slightly addlepated in the brainpain after reading that post, please note that I am tired and out of practice at the whole posty-goodness(glad to have you back fffnet). I fully realize this is a SHOW with FICTIONAL characters. HOWEVER, what makes it a GREAT show, the BEST even, is that we the public can see ourselves in characters or situations. It's relatable despite the fact that it's set on a SPACESHIP 500 years in the future. So, to recap, not crazy (not overmuch anyways), just a BIG DAMN FAN.

I love you Joss.

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