The "Cry Baby" by Calhoun

Actually, I think the Cry Baby was sendng a false ship signature to the Alliance and it doesn't have anything to do with the moon behind it.

Good eye noticing that though, you may be right.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 2:47 PM

LADYJAYNE

I love the code they used to deploy it, myself. Of course The Beatles are still going to be quoted 500 years from now!

--Kala

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 3:01 PM

Travellin through space you'd have to have some sensors for mass/gravity. The Cry Baby would probably have transmitted false ship signature but the placement of the Cry Baby near that rock would undoubtedly(imho) have been to provide verification of the electronic signature by giving it a large mass.

It'd be nice if Mr Whedon, who must get on-line sometime, responded to this thread and let us know if this was his intention.

Wonder whats happenin with the movie..

~Keep Flyin~

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 3:09 PM

I'm terrible at discussing science and the laws of physics....

But, it seems to me they knew the moon was there before Cry Baby. How could it suddenly disappear and become a ship?

Maybe I'm not understanding you.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 3:51 PM

ZYMURGIST

If I remember correctly, according to the commentery, Fox requested that they throw in some kind of backdrop to the crybaby for scale.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 4:05 PM

I think the Alliance did not neccessarily know that rock was there. Surely not every piece of asteriodal debris would be charted. It was 13 clicks ahead they wouldnt have had visual. Only a gravity/mass reading.

I am not tryin to be smart assy or anything its just that this was like a revelation to me and now seems so obvious that I cant believe otherwise.

I once wrong once before though. :)

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 4:07 PM

I dont remember any commentary from Fox wanting something in cry baby scene for scale. Where did you see that?

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 4:22 PM

I think I've had it wrong this whole time. I always thought Cry Baby was released from Serenity's hatch. Sent false signals about distance and size. "Hello! This is a distress call! We are a big ship 13 clicks away!"

Was is already positioned by the moon 13 clicks away from Serenity, as a backup plan? That would imply Serenity has the ability to remotely turn something on 13 clicks away. I wonder how far that is.

If so, then what you say makes much more sense to me, Calhoun.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 4:48 PM

DIGITALOUTBREAK

"I think the Alliance did not neccessarily know that rock was there. Surely not every piece of asteriodal debris would be charted. It was 13 clicks ahead they wouldnt have had visual. Only a gravity/mass reading."

This is my question... if its only 13 clicks away, why cant they see it? Its not like there is anything between them, so it should just be a matter of zoom lenses, and high res cameras... imo watching firefly I pretty much ignore the physics aspect of it considering that in 500 years, surely our grasp of physics will change. ;) Also, I think that when Serenity uses its firefly-drive its infinatly cooler then any cheesey explanation for ftl transport. I like the fact that no one mentions it because no one cares. To bring another excelent show up, farscape, most of the travel is done at sublight speeds, with rare starbursts, however it really doesnt take anything away from the plot ;)

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 5:41 PM

Yeah thats right Succatash, my interpretation of events was that the Cry Baby was positioned next to that rock prior to the operation as a contingency plan. They wouldve triggered it with a tight beam coded laser pulse or some such. Shouldnt be difficult especially when u know exactly the direction to point your laser at. I, too, wonder how far 13 klicks is.

The physics arent really crucial to the show but I believe it is evident Joss has made a very real effort to be scientifically accurate. Furthermore, the Cry Baby scenerio is a novel and clever idea. Especially if it was intended as I interpreted. :)

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 5:59 PM

ASTRIANA

My question was always: How and/or DO they retrieve the Crybaby? The were busy mooning the Alliance cruiser at the time, and Crybaby isn't mentioned again, so would they have gone back and gotten it later, or do they just have more than one? Seems like too good a thing to only ever be able to use once.

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Astriana:
My question was always: How and/or DO they retrieve the Crybaby? The were busy mooning the Alliance cruiser at the time, and Crybaby isn't mentioned again, so would they have gone back and gotten it later, or do they just have more than one? Seems like too good a thing to only ever be able to use once.

Well, it did say "Crybaby #6" on the side of the can...

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:08 PM

Astriana: "My question was always: How and/or DO they retrieve the Crybaby?"

Sure, #6, but it would have "fingerprints" of all kinds, pointing to Serenity and crew. It's a beacon with a lock on their ship, you can't leave that behind.

Good question, Astriana.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:08 PM

ASTRIANA

Guess I missed the "#6" part...

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:

But it would have "fingerprints" of all kinds, pointing to Serenity and crew. It's a beacon with a lock on their ship, you can't leave that behind.

What kind of 'fingerprints'? It's a tin can with a rigged transmitter/receiver. Doesn't need to have any connection to the ship, just needs to accept a specific command sent to it and transmit the pre-recorded distress signal. Seems pretty disposable to me (and it sounds like they've made use of and disposed 5 of them already...)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:22 PM

I'm totally getting out of my league here with techno physics.

BUT we've got ourselves...

A Cry Baby device that uses a nearby moon to disguise itself because the moon just happens to have the exact same weight as an common Alliance ship...

It can receive a transmission 13 clicks away!

It can completely hide all traces of the incoming signal.

Sounds pretty useful and expensive.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:23 PM

BOOMERGOODHEART

Couldn't they have rigged up some sort of timer to short it out? The thing is so small, if the signal died, I doubt that huge Alliance ship could see the thing out the window. *shrugging* Just my little guess.

BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:39 PM

SAINT JAYNE

My thoughts: The thing looks like an MJB coffee can, it's #6, and it doesn't look too sophisticated. I think it's a disposable.

I focused beam to trigger the device would be easily done even in our time.

As for the gravitational measurement argument, they through in lots of pretty scenery, so the moon/asteroid might just be for looks. Didn't the Alliance lacky say that it "sounded" like a big ship?

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:47 PM

I have to say the moon is irrevelant.

The Cry Baby moon can't just happen to be the same weight as a common Alliance ship. That would be silly. Mal didn't pick the cargo. He's not god.

Therefore, the ship's signature, and it's gravity mass, would have to be altered, moon or no moon.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 6:57 PM

I would like to take back my words, because I am wrong.

Here's a quote from that scene:

"Sounds like a personnel carrier..."

"Definitely a big ship, Sir."

Calhoun is a sharp eyed Science Warrior.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 7:30 PM

I was just about to jump all over you Succatash when I read your second last post but feel somewhat vindicated with the last post :)

Of course!! Put the Cry Baby near a large mass (big rock/small moon) and hey presto! Now when an Alliance ship recieves its transmission they can also see a large mass on their gravitic sensors... Its so obvious. So obvious it took me a few years worth of watchin to notice.

I am certain and will remain certain of this until Joss Whedon tells me differently :)

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 7:33 PM

LOL! "Sharp eyed science warrior"

I like it!

Thank you, Succatash

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 8:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I was just about to jump all over you Succatash...

Well I'm glad I spared myself a jumpin'. I'm totally out of vaseline and I have a really high co-pay on my insurance.

[DRUM ROLL] No, but seriously, I learned from this post. Thanks. Maybe I'll head over to the Solar System thread and learn a thing or two.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 8:50 PM

NOOCYTE

PMJI. Actually, I have an alternate view of this matter (ah, jeez; just when we thought it was good and settled!

).

That broken up body in the frame with the crybaby was large enough to have pulled itself into a sphere at one point (smaller bodies tend to be more irregular in shape, like most asteroids and comets, etc). That would pretty much require it to have been a pretty substantial mass, and therefore unlikely to be wholly uncharted (kind of a nasty thing to run into [literally!] unawares!). Also, it's likely way too big to be mistaken for a ship.

HOWEVER...

Such a mass might go a long way toward disguising the absence of a large ship from the cruiser's long-range sensors. Thoughts?

On the matter of distance, I have to believe that they just used the word "clicks" because it sounded kool. "Clicks" (or, as it is usually spelled in this context, "klicks") refers to kilometers, 13 of which is near enough to vizzy through the window, naked-eyeball-wise. SO, unless "c/klicks" is used differently in 500 years (which I'd accept if specifically told by JW, etc., but otherwise would put me dangerously into the realm of fan-wanking), I'd have to think of it as an error. Hey, it happens.

As for the crybaby, it really did look like something jerry-rigged from spare parts, and so painlessly left behind. Pretty risky to go back for it, as there's a real chance that some crafty Alliance missile-man would slap a tracer on it in a fit of pique.

end of dissertation.

Keep flyin'!

Department of Redundancy Department

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 10:29 PM

PHOSPHORUS

I've gotta say I think Noocyte got it right on the money here. I never stopped to think about gravimetric sensors mistaking a coffee can for a space ship, but there does have to be some sort of an explantion, and the "ship behind a planet (or asteroid)" is as good as any. If the thing is 13 clicks away, they should be able to see something with the naked eye, and of course they could detect the coffee can/crybaby, but there's no reason to suspect that it is a decoy and not some debris.

Remember, that this doesn't have to fool them for long. It's a diversion, not a mock ship. It only needs to stand up to 2-3 minutes scrutiny and that from a distance. Finally, we don't know how this distress signal is normally sent. It's possible that the Alliance expects it is being transmitted from some sort of communications bouy, used for for this exact purpose. In that case, everything, including the size of the can and the necessity of the moon (for the supposed ship to hide behind), is plausible from their perspective.

"Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were abducted by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever.... Amazing we kept him this long."

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Wednesday, January 7, 2004 11:08 PM

CAPTBAGGYTROUSERS

My vote:

Coffee can stuffed with electronics which sends out a false signal. Cheap, disposable. Moon of no consequence.

I also think Serenity has done it before, hence #6, but it's an uncommon enough trick that the Alliance hasn't caught onto it yet (but you can bet the commander of The Dortmunder is going slap his forehead when they get close enough to the Crybaby to see it's no ship in distress.)

History repeats the old conceits

http://topshelftvshow.com
Updated! Improved! Shiny!

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 2:28 AM

Guys.. The rock/moon is entirely relevant to the cry baby senario!

Joss seems so on top of his game that the rock/moon could not possibly be of no consequence.

How can I ask the question of Joss? Get it straight from the horses mouth as it were.

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 2:56 AM

HANS

My problem with this scene is the whole "13 clicks" thing. That's only 13 kilometres, or less than 10 miles. In terms of space travel that's INSANELY close. The cruiser itself looks to be almost a kilometre long! The idea that they can't deploy their gunships (which presumably would go after Serenity) because they wouldn't get back in time makes no sense. What kind of gunships would a battle cruiser carry if they are helpless when the main ship is only 13 kilometres away?

Hans

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 3:58 AM

Yeah 13 klicks is kilometres here now to us but our frame of reference is from walking or driving on a planet. I imagine in the future travelling vast distances through space a klick might be 1000 or 10000 or even 1000000 kilometres.

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 5:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Guys.. The rock/moon is entirely relevant to the cry baby senario!

Joss seems so on top of his game that the rock/moon could not possibly be of no consequence.

How can I ask the question of Joss? Get it straight from the horses mouth as it were.

Actually, I think Joss mentions something about this in his commentary...something about how the special effects people wanted to add all these nifty space visuals and Joss was like, "guys, we only have one thing we need to get across here..."

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 5:25 AM

CANTTAKESKY

Quote:
Such a mass might go a long way toward disguising the absence of a large ship from the cruiser's long-range sensors. Thoughts?

My vote's with Noocyte. I don't think a moon can really be mistaken for a personnel carrier (size incompatibility, distance from ship, location of known bodies, etc). But it can certainly be an easy assumption for not detecting one. The moon still serves a purpose, just a more subtle, clever one.

Can't Take My Gorram Sky

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 8:10 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I noticed the # 6 too. It would seem it was the latest in a string of decoy devices.

I agree w/ everyone that it appears to be cobbled together out of spare parts, and it seems to be disposable. The scene it was used in, and the way Mal waited until he was certain they would be spotted before he had Walsh trigger it leads me to think that it is a last ditch sort of thing. Perhaps they are not 100% reliable since they are cobbled together? Maybe I am reading too much into that though.

I had not thought of Cry Baby's proximity to the moon and the possibility that it could be using the mass of the moon to create a false image on Alliance scanners, but I suppose it is possible. I don't think it very likely though. How would Mal have known there would be a large enough object nearby to use, or could it have simply have been a lucky circumstance that put them close enough to use it?

Intresting theory nonetheless.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 8:28 AM

HANS

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
Yeah 13 klicks is kilometres here now to us but our frame of reference is from walking or driving on a planet. I imagine in the future travelling vast distances through space a klick might be 1000 or 10000 or even 1000000 kilometres.

Hadn't thought of that. I'm not sure even what the origin of "clicks" is, but your explanation make sense.

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 9:18 AM

HERO

Hmmmm

Here's a theory nobody else came up with. The "Cry Baby" refers to something completely different. Its just a coincidence that there's a coffee can with 'cry baby' written on it floating nearby. We're all mean to think its the thing, when really its something completely different.

Just shoes how 'deep' the show really is.

H

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 9:55 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:
I imagine in the future travelling vast distances through space a klick might be 1000 or 10000 or even 1000000 kilometres.

Isn't the rest of the show in imperial units? I seem to remember someone using "miles". If that's the case, I'm sure they've just recycled the term "klicks" and it doesn't mean kilometres.

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 10:55 AM

MRGREEN

Ok, I wan't to make sure I was right before I went spouting my mouth off...

Checked the Serenity DVD commentary, and Joss specifically says that the CGI guys 'put the coffee can in front of this really cool planet', ''zause they love that kinda stuff'.

In other words, his script didn't call for the Cry Baby to be in front of or near a planet or anything like that. It was just visual effects guys having fun.

All of the theories about gravitation from the moon and what not are very interesting, and I think that the idea that the moon simply hides the absense of a ships gravity is most plausible. However, none of them were the intention of the writer/director/producer, so it's all jus fun chit chat, imho.

Also, somehting that no one has suggested... Clearly they have a good contorl of gravity at this point, and is fairly simple and inexpensive As evidence, all ships, even small shuttles have artificial gravity. They also mention that they alter the gravity of planets during terraforming.

It also seems that the energy used by the artificial gravity systems are pretty insignificant, as it kept running while the entire ship powers down, in Out of Gas.

It is entirely plausable that they rigged up some sort of artificial gravity field generator (maybe scavenged from an otherwise destroyed vessle?) in the Cry Baby to make it seem that it was much larger than it actually was.

Again, I think it's just a fun thing to debate about. It was obviosly just a plot device, and not a whole lot of thought from the writers went into it.

Rob

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Thursday, January 8, 2004 2:31 PM

EARLY

Quote:
Isn't the rest of the show in imperial units? I seem to remember someone using "miles". If that's the case, I'm sure they've just recycled the term "klicks" and it doesn't mean kilometres.

Could be but in the Marines we used klicks to mean kilometers and we used meters on the ranges but we also used miles, and feet. So a combo of standard and metric would not be unheard of, especially in a place where cultures have combined (being we in the US are one of only 3 countries that still use that outdated standard system). But I think realistically speaking klicks would probably be larger. When you discuss moving klicks in the military it is usually that a grid on a map is one kilometer, so maybe they use the term klick to be one grid square which could be any lenth at all and given the vastness of space most likely very large.

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Friday, January 9, 2004 6:52 AM

PHOSPHORUS

It's certainly possible that clicks are not kilometers, but the distance is irrelevant. Note that the underling asked, "Should we deploy gunships and bring her in." They're on patrol. We're talking about mounting a rescue operation, not running suicide sprints on a basketball court. They'd need to get the pilots into the gunships, launch them, get to the disabled ship, asses the status, evacuate it or prepare to tow it, and then do that. Finally, they would go chase Serenity. That's why they can't do it. 13 clicks has nothing to do with it.

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Friday, January 9, 2004 8:18 AM

BLINKER

Quote:
Originally posted by ladyjayne:
I love the code they used to deploy it, myself. Of course The Beatles are still going to be quoted 500 years from now!

--Kala

I was amused to notice another possible Beatles reference in "The Hero of Canton." Both Boss Higgins and the "Taxman" enforce a 95% taxation rate:

And he saw the Magistrate taking
Every dollar, and leaving five cents

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
Should five percent appear too small
Be grateful I don't take it all

The more political protest songs change...

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Friday, January 9, 2004 8:45 AM

Great catch, Blinker! cool...

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Friday, January 9, 2004 10:49 AM

CAPTAINCDC

I agree. I think the moon/asteroid was just put there to have some sort of backdrop. I think the crybaby was put together with spare parts and is disposable. They would not have had time to go back and get it, because the alliance cruiser would have gotten there first and probably destroyed it when they found it and realized they had been tricked. I hesitate to mention this because I figure there are a lot of you that do not like star trek, but they used a similar plot device in the first or second season of star trek: enterprise. Archer was kidnapped by a bounty hunter who meant to turn him in to the klingons. The bounty hunter momentarily disabled enterprise long enough for him to get away. When enterprise was back up and running they started searching for the bounty hunter ship's signature on long range sensors. They found it and pursued. When they got there they found a device similar to the crybaby that the bounty hunter had launched that simulated the ship's signature. It was a wild goose chase. They destroyed the device and had to start their search all over again. I think this is the same thing that mal and crew did. They programmed the crybaby so that when triggered it would simulate the signature of a personnel carrier in distress. The alliance cruiser would have to go after it in hopes of saving many civilian lives. It would only have to fool them long enough so that serenity could take off in the opposite direction. And as far as clicks, in our time it means kilometers, but 500 years in the future and in space it would have to mean a greater distance than 13 kilometers. In space travel that is nothing. Maybe one click is equivalent to one light year. I don't know.

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Saturday, January 10, 2004 11:20 PM

TUNNEL

Looks like its a coffee can. So I'd think it would be disposable.

In the commentary Joss says its a coffee can and that the CG guys wanted to put a bunch of background stuff in the frame but he said no because it was only there to get across one peice of information.

I really don't think the planetoid had anything to do with the mechanics of the can or whatnot.

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Sunday, January 11, 2004 2:15 AM