What's the deal with Serenity? (Spoiler Warning!) by 6ixStringJack

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What's the deal with Serenity? (Spoiler Warning!)

POSTED BY: 6IXSTRINGJACK
UPDATED: Thursday, July 6, 2006 15:58
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VIEWED: 3567
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Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:40 PM

Before I start, I know that I may make more than a few enemies with this post. I hope that's not the case. I would simply like to start a discussion and see what other Firefly fans think.

I'm new here, so allow me to introduce myself. Like most of you, I am just a regular guy that feels betrayed by Fox time and time again for cancelling great shows in leiu of airing crap that the brainless masses consume. After they cancelled Arrested Development, I refuse to even vest any of my time on any Fox show ever again. I don't know what they're thinking, and sometimes I think that it's just a big social experiment to see what the rabid fans of these critically acclaimed shows will do.

That being said, my brother has been trying for almost a year to get me to watch Firefly on DVD and I finally watched the first episode about a week ago. I can't believe I never watched this before. I watched all of the episodes in 3 days. I've never been a fan of Buffy or Angel before, though both of my brothers were, but Firefly is simply amazing! This is, bar none, the best show that has ever been on TV... though I think twoards the end some of the story lines were rushed, possibly due to the shows premature demise. I won't pretend to know the history of the show as I've never been fan enough of anything to know all of the behind the scenes details.

The great thing about watching the show was that with all of my brother's talk of another network picking up the rights (I belive it was SiFi channel), I watched with the belief that there would be more episodes in the future. The end of the series certainly left it wide open to be picked up from where it left off.

Then the impossible happened.....

Serenity. Honestly, I liked the movie much better the first time I saw it when it was Escape from New York, and even better the second time I saw it when it was called Escape from LA. The best version of Serenity I ever saw was a little movie called Equilibrium (Starring Christian Bale).

Don't get me wrong... I love the idea of the little guy rising up and standing up to the oppressive government, but it's just that Mal or his crew wouldn't have done that... not yet anyways. There should have been at least 4 more seasons of that show before it took a turn like it did in the movie. Possibly Mal and his crew unifying other independents (possibly even the reavers) in a battle against the Alliance.

I loved the idea of the space cowboy who realizes there's oppressive forces out there, both good and evil, but instead of fighting them, he does his best to live off the grid as a free man with nothing but his ship and his trusted crew, protecting him and his own, while the crew's relationships were changing and growing and solidifying each and every day. The movie rushed the love between certain people, destroyed a beautiful marriage and killed off some great characters for nothing.

This movie took an amazing premise, with some of the greatest characters ever created and squandered them on a Hollywood semi-hit. I almost shut it off in the middle when it started to take itself too seriously. This movie destroyed the chemistry of the ship.

Bottom line, Firefly, if it ever does come back to TV will never be what it once was. If it were to follow the story arc the movie took, we would watch it, but we would never have the show that we once loved. It would be like watching Stargate now as opposed to the first 5 seasons, or watching Sliders after SiFi bought it and killed off the main characters and ruined it.

My belief is that we should do whatever we can to get this show back on the air, but we should demand that it take place after the last episode of Firefly and explain away the movie as some dream that River had, or some dumb story about a parrallel universe or simply ignore the movie alltogether. Pretty lame, I know, but in my opinion the movie was lame and I wish I could erase it from my mind.

Happy Belated Birtday Joss. You're a very talented man and I thank you for brining the wonderful story of Firefly to my life and the lives of all of the fans. I don't hate ya for Serenety. I'm just hoping that we can put that behind us and get our great show back. I'm sure, if nobody else agrees, there are at least 2 dead characters who's actors would share my sentiment.

Be gentle with me now flamers.

Good day to ya all.

The government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned.

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:51 PM

SUZFROMOZ

Interesting. I have no intention of flaming, but I do find it odd that someone who loved the series so much feels so strongly against the movie. I can feel that there is a different vibe in the movie, its definately darker, but I dont think thats a bad thing. And yes we are really disapointed that wash and book had to go, but I dont think it 'was for nothing'. And I think the story would have been much weaker if for eg Book had survived the attack on Haven. It made the loss much more personal for Mal and the whole crew. Anyway, Im not going to analyse all those details. But, everyone is entitled to their opinion...Im just not gonna agree with it.

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:07 PM

ZZETTA13

Hello 6IX, first of all welcome aboard.

Secondly,I'm not mad at you but I will only give you half a bottle of mudders milk.

Thirdly, I know its your opinion but I strongly disagree. FF could come back as good as its first go round. I give the actors and Joss and crew credit for being able to do it. Now the BDM had to have a BDS(story). Fighting the Alliance is about as big as you can get. Remember Joss and company were trying to generate interest it doing more so thing couldn't just putt along. they had to get moving.

Anyway I've got plenty more to say, but I want to take a step back for now.

Z

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:21 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I know this isn't the 80's and that it would be foolish for me to believe or even want the characters to live forever, like the Thundercats did. Hell, even the bad guys never died on that show. I'm not even saying that the premise of the movie itself was altogether terrible. It's simply that it was a story that's been done before, many times. Firefly in itself was a truly unique creation and following the story arc of the movie, it can never again be what it once was. It will always take itself too seriously now. I'm not saying that Mal and crew should never have opposed the Alliance on such a grand scale someday, it's just that I would have enjoyed a few more seasons of life the way that it was during the first season before it took that turn. Zoe particularly will never be the same as she was before. Is she to just play the cold heartless soldier bitch she was before she married Wash? It's bad enough to have your spouce leave you, but to die so young for something so meaningless? If the show ever comes back, that little plot point in the movie had better have made a real difference and caused major dissention with the people and the Alliance on all worlds, or his death was in vain. Even in today's world, the government would be able to do some pretty good PR to explain away a situation like the death of 30,000,000 innocient people to the mindless sheeple, and after a few years, they would bareley even remember that it even happened. The schoolchildren 30 years later would read about how some foreign force had unleashed poison on a planet and created the reavers or some such nonsence in their Social Studies class.

I just think that it should go back to the Indiana Jones type feel that it had before as opposed to the 1984ish feel that the movie presented. You always knew that the Darkness was there. The scariest part (and possibly the most exciting part) of the series was when those top secret guys killed the Alliance officials with their little death sticks while chasing Jayne, River and Simon at the hospital after Jayne betrayed them. The beautiful thing about space is that they could get away from that for weeks at a time. You can't do that in the real world. There is nowhere to hide from society. And even if you find a place, it's not going to be exciting.

You just have to ask yourself, after we've found out everything that River is and started a huge battle against the Alliance which may cripple them for years, how intersting is it going to be to watch Mal and co. go back to petty theivery?

Thanks for your input. I would love to have some discussion with others on this point.

"The government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:36 PM

DQBABY76

Welcome! It's always good to see new folk around here.

Although I dont agree with most of what you wrote I did find it intriguing. As for me, I loved the BDM but of course I was asolutely heartbroken by some of the events that occured. I do often wonder what if Firefly gets a chance to come back where will it take off from.

I just figured that the reason why Serenity is that way it is, is because Joss had no way of knowing if he was going to have another opportunity to come back to the story after the BDM so he had to have most of the mysteries solved so us Browncoats could go on with our lives and stop hounding him for more answers. Unfortunately, the one big mystery he didnt solve was Book's past. The box office numbers for Serenity wasn't quite enough for movie executives to call it a hit. It made just enough to cover the budget it was allowed.

I would love to see more adventures of these people but until someone who has the right connections takes notice then we are left to just love what we have. And by the way...no one can unify with Reavers, they eat you first and ask no questions. heheh... you never know Serenity might grow on you. I know when I first saw it as soon as Wash died I vowed to never watch it again because I was so sad. But now its one of my faves, I just close my eyes during that part. Good Luck and Take care!

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Shepard used to tell me...can't do something smart, do something right.

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:45 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

You know when I watched the movie Alexander, Oliver Stone's telling of the story of Alexander the Great, I couldn't help but feel I'd seen the movie before. And I had, except before it was called Searching for Bobby Fischer.

Both were true stories, of course, but that wasn't what made them the same. What made them the same were that they were both the story of a boy who was pushed into great struggle early in his life and subject to pressures from not just his oppoenets but also his parrents and his mentors. In the end he wins through by using his brain better than his opponents. Oliver Stone's movie went on longer and also showed the conclusion of the story, the fall from grace, but that doesn't change the fact it was the same movie.

Of course there are too many details in this, certainly more details link these two stories than those that link escape from New York, where Snake took no stand agaisnt the oppressive government which took no interest in the way people thought or felt, to Equilibrium, where the entire movie was a stand against an oppressive government that tried to control how people thought and felt. But you are correct in stating that they are, in fact, the same story.

The story is called, "The humble tailor," and is one of only three stories known to exist. The difference is in the details, it always is and it always will be.

The story of Sereneity was, in a nutshell:
A ragtag group of people go on a journey because of a secret in the past, discover a terrible truth, and tell the world.

It's actually two stories, the first is one of discovery, known as, "The man who learned better," and the second is that same old, "The humble tailor."

When have we not heard those? Well the answer is that we've heard those stories almost constantly, they were read to us before we could even understand the words.

The first episode was three parts humble tailor.

The Train Job was more humble tailor and the man who learned better. Bushwacked brought in the man who learned better hard, but it was on the part of the alliance captain. It goes on like that all through the series and only in the second to last episode, Heart of Gold, do we get something that isn;t one of these two plots. We get boy meets girl, how original.

The last episode is humble tailor all the way.

So, for the most part Firefly peddled the same story over and over again. Why do we like it if it's so damn repetitive? Well it's because life is in the details.

In Escape from New York Snake is blackmailed into preforming a rescue mission and recovering a valuble bit of information, stuff happens and he does one, but, because of indifference to human suffering in the part of the President, not the other. The actual nature of the government is not touched on, nor is the state of the world.

In Escape from LA Snake is again blackmailed, this time into retriving a peice of hardware and killing someone. The state of the government is made clear, it is a corrupt theocracy, politics and religion dominate the movie as we discover that those in the prison city this time are not just murders and theives but instead Muslims and Mormons. The state of the world is also clear, World War Three is starting, invasion forces are moving on the United States and the can be stopped or helped by that bit of hardware.

Snake refuses to do either of the things he was hired to do and instead uses the hardware to more or less end civilization.

The details are a little bit different.

Serenity has the details even more different, no blackmail, never working for the government which means no government no job that sends them into dangerous territory and no one to rescue or kill, no information or hardware to retrive. Unlike Snake they didn't renege on anything and Snake didn't learn anything new about the government's treatment of people, they did.

Snake didn't bring any truth to the world. He stopped the singal, they sent it.

But the story remains the same. Then again Serenity is just as similar to The Pelican Brief than those two, but that has the same story too.

All the same, always the same.

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:53 PM

ZZETTA13

6IX I can see your argument but I don't see Serenity being the same old story told the same old way. I haven't been here that long myself but there have been many interesting discussions about all manner of topics on the site here.

Not to dig up old bones, but I will. Theres a thread here, somewhere deep in the arch that Book and Wash ain't dead. Original? hows that sound. Well you can say that its been done before, and it has. But until I see Joss and crew do it , or any variation I can't say it will be the same old song and dance. I refuse to can any dream of originality before its even been made.

just how I see it, Z

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:59 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
You just have to ask yourself, after we've found out everything that River is and started a huge battle against the Alliance which may cripple them for years, how intersting is it going to be to watch Mal and co. go back to petty theivery?

A hell of a lot more interesting than watching them overthrow the government or some other such nonsense. All they did was send a message, the message was sent, and in the words of Mal (that didn't make it to the screen), "'Verse wakes up a spell. Won't be long 'fore she rolls right over and falls back asleep. T'aint my worry."

He's not out to do anything more, and there's no reason he should.

If you, personally, wouldn't find it interesting to see them going back to petty theivery then why do you feel bad they didn't keep doing it in the first place?

I have trouble believing there is a person on this board, 'cept maybe yourself, who wouldn't be interested in watching them be petty again.

Look at the Series it went from major battle to salvage in the first part of the first episode, it went from all out war on Niska to the wacky fun of Trash in one episode, and from that to the Message in one more.

Changes in scope don't seem to matter and truely the only thing I can think of the crew doing that wouldn't be interesting would be another epic scale adventure, but I'm sure if they did that they'd find a way.

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:04 PM

I agree with you on how it was a little rushed, and have always (in my mind) thought of it as the two-hour series finale, last episode of the fourth season.

-------------------------------------------------

'I don't know. He seems kind of peculiar.'

'Maybe he's Canadian!'

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 7:36 PM

JUMPER

I agree the tone of the movie was very different. Mal isn't himself, well, he is less of himself then usual, now that Inara and Book have left.

One of the things that irks me is the forced way in which the story is introduced. Some of the comments Mal makes about River and Simon just don't jibe with where I felt things left off at the end of the series. He went back for them in Safe, and at that point I always figured they were part of the crew... A lot of the forced-sounding exchanges are required so that the movie can make sense to people who have not seen the series, and I understand that. But if you could Serenity (the pilot) and The Train Job (second pilot, which had many similar forced-sounding reintroductions), I've heard all this twice already. It's annoying.

Watching Serenity crash the first time I saw the BDM was one of the hardest moments of my entire life, and I didn't even know what was coming next. The movie is not for the faint of heart, and I wouldn't expect any less from Joss. I think if you extrapolate how things were going when the series ended, through the comic books, to where the movie is, it's clear that Mal is in a very bad place, and that is projecting on the rest of the crew.... I guess maybe my frustration with the movie stems from watching characters I have become very attached to put in such a bad place with minimal explination, and no chance of next season's season opener fixing everything like in some other sci-fi series..

Of course, all this was followed by Battlestar Galactica's Season 2 finale, which didn't make things much better....

When I was younger, Trek was my favorite. You always knew most things would be resolved, hell, TOS and TNG basically 'reset' between eps. As I have gotten older, shows with actual story arcs have become more appealing... Firefly, BSG, etc. The problem is that with those story arcs, comes real tension and real death...

I guess I just feel cheated, not having 4 seasons of Firefly as we knew it to look back on before things got serious in the BDM, like we always knew they would from the time Mal opened that cryo crate..

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 10:35 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I tried to post for about 3 hours earlier. Boy this site get's really bogged down. How much more proof do the powers that be need that this show would have millions of viewers every week?

I definately agree with you that it would be more interesting if they went back to their roots than if this turned into a daily diary of the battle against the Alliance. I'll just watch more Battlestar Galactica fight the Cylons if I want to see that. I'm hoping that it's possible to go back and that the chemistry isn't completely ruined, what with the deaths and the rushed love relationships, who knows how they will be able to bring this back to it's original greatness?

Simon's proper ways and his clumsy way with words around the fairer sex, always keeping him from taking advantage of Kaylee, and the way that you know Kaylee just wants to jump his bones every episode, but she really never could figure out how to read him. The similar way that Mal and Inara felt about each other. They had that great "Han-Leia" relationship always getting in the way from ever admitting their true feelings to themselves or each other. That's all over now. These are great plot devices which were sacraficed for the BDM. Of course we wanted to see these relationships develop into something more, but again, they were forced to do it all in 2 hours instead of over many more adventures.

Joss was put in the unfortunate position of having to create a box office blockbuster type movie with a project that had been beaten to the ground by Fox while still in its infantile stage. If he chose to simply create a 2 hour episode of the show we know and love for the big screen, a move which I gather most here would have prefered if there is indeed going to be more episodes if Firefly, it most likely wouldn't have been green-lighted in the first place. We were just beginning to really care about these characters and the whole dynamic had to be mucked up because it was probably very likely that this was Firefly's last hurrah. Loose ends, mysteries & relationships had to all be wrapped up in 2 hours instead of the 3 or 4 more seasons, at least, that they diserved.

I even kind of liked the way the movie had started. I didn't hate it from the beginning, although the characters all did have a kind of different feel to them from the start in the BDM. It was before Wash even died that I thought everything was mucked up real good. I started watching the DVD thinking that somebody would probably die along the way, but that didn't make me any less pissed off when Book died. He was one of my favorite characters. Sadly, we all moved on, and I figured that when the high-action of the BDM was over, we could go back to the show the way it was when we fell in love with it and it could still have that same feel that it used to.

That thought was quickly squashed when The Operative killed all of the people on all of the planets that ever harbored the crew (at least that's what I think happened, it all happened so damn fast). After that happened, it didn't matter what plug n' play "anti-government" story Joss had the characters play out. The fun was over. These guys are hard core fugitives now, and if you think the Alliance is going to forget about that little Reaver stunt, just ask yourself how quickly we're likely to forget 9/11. Just because The Operative has already forgiven Mal, don't think the Alliance is going to forget. The crew is like the Al Queda deck of cards the FBI has, and unless the civil unrest brought upon the Alliance from the knowledge about Miranda lasting, and the Alliance is crippled as bad as the Empire was when the Death Star was destroyed, the crew ain't going to be doing no more petty theft for a long time because they're going to have the Alliance on their ass every step of the way no matter which end of the 'verse they're on (Think freaky-ass dudes with deathsticks that give you killer nosebleeds). Not to mention that Book and Wash would have died in vain... not to mention that most of the people that they usually dealt with are dead. Not that I care about Mr Universe's death in the slightest (Although if properly developed, he had potential to be a very intersting character). I was almost laughing at the little hologram graves at the end too... it all seemed so forced how they were all put together like that. By that time I had already decided in my mind that the movie never happened so their deaths didn't effect me the way that I'm sure that they effected many of you.

It's a different game now, and even if the Alliance is crippled, that would be a loss to the show as well. I truly enjoyed the parallels to living the way you want to live without government meddeling in the real world, to how this rag-tag crew managed to skate under the radar on the show. The only difference, of course, is that in real life there is no under the radar from Big Brother, and even if you did manage to live off the grid, it wouldn't be exciting or funny. To kill, or severly cripple the Alliance (at least to the point necessary where Mal and Co. could go back to petty theivery) would be just as detrimental to the show as the death of Book or Wash. The Alliance as a whole is one of the best characters on the show, and even on the lighthearted episodes, you know that they're out there lurking... searching endlessly for river River and always scheming more efficient ways to micromanage everyone's life on every planet. The total domination of mankind's minds, bodies and souls.

Mal didn't want to fight that... He couldn't fight that. He just wanted to avoid it and live life the way that he believed he should without anyone telling him what is right and what is wrong. "T'aint my worry", I'd believe he would've said.

BTW... thanks CHRISTHECYNIC for telling me that he said those words at the end of the movie that didn't make it to the screen. Though they betray the way Mal acted most of the BDM, it's nice to hear him say something that sounds like what he would have said on the show.

"The government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 10:56 PM

SPACEANJL

Joss had a take on why Inara and Book had to leave the ship, and also why certain characters had to die. Inara would always be the 'woman left behind' for Mal, the unrequited deal. She may be conflicted at the end of the BDM, but she doesn't state whether she's staying or going definitively. Kaylee and Simon have a lot to work through relationship wise. Wash - pissed off myself, but he made an odd kind of sense - gives River a future purpose on the ship. Book - his backstory would be interesting, and could still come back out of nowhere.

As for the Alliance, it's a big entity made up of a lot of people with different agendas. *immodest cough* I'm working on a little something to this effect. Don't think it's crippled, but it's going to have a lot more in-fighting, I would imagine.

Mr Universe didn't work for me - too much of a MacGuffin, unless there was a plan to build on him.

SpaceAnJL

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:05 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I'm enjoying this thread. Good people in here to be sure. I figured that half of the posts were going to be hatemail and this would regress to a two year old conversation real quick. I particularly like christhecynic's insightful posts. Of course the details are what make the stories interesting, and these stories aren't exactly the same. I've never heard of that "only 3 stories in the world" concept, but I do find it intriguing. Obdviously we share a similar taste in movies as well because you seem to know enough about them off hand to be able to write such an in-depth comparison. I hope you're not getting mad at me.... you're last post seemed like you were getting a bit agitated.

Two questions for you chris:

1) Would you agree that "The Arrival" with Charlie Sheen would have been a better comparison to Serenity than the others mentioned?

2) Do you think that Mal would have pressed 666?

"The government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:05 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

In a lot of ways the novel is more satisfying than the movie. Books can take their time more than movies can, so there wasn't much cut from the novel, and it actually expanded on a lot of things. Both Mr Universe and Haven were explored a bit more, though it didn't go into Book leaving the ship; that was a job for the comics.
Yes, I wish they had been able to take more time with all the stories, but there's what I want and what happened, and what happened was that they weren't given the chance to take their time. Considering what they had, I think they did it well, and I'm glad there was some resolution, and I hope there's a bit more in future movies, and I hope the series comes back and picks up where Objects in Space left off; that they film the comic books and more, and have a lead-up to the movie(s). But I'm also happy in the knowledge that, if no other execs are smart enough to keep this going, we'll always have a somewhat satisfying ending.
Even though Wash was my favorite (male) character and I cry every single time...

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98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature (it counts even though I'm not a teen anymore)

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:17 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

SPACEANJL - I don't know a lot about what Joss's take on things are. I guess it's pretty rare that I get so wrapped up in anything anymore as much as I have with this show and I tend to make it a place where I'd like to live and make it my own. I've never watched anything behind the scenes or read any of the books or comics. Shoud I choose to do this, is it easy to get a hold of them? One thing that interests me about what you say is the fact that we may see more of Book in the future. You're the second person on this thread that's alluded to that. Has Joss or anyone else said anything to make people think there may be a ressurection of sorts?

PhoenixRose - You're right. If this truly is the end of Firefly, then it's good for all of us that they wrapped up all the loose ends. I guess I was going into this whole thing with the thought that they were probably bringing the show back and I just watched so much wasted on a 2 hour BDM that could have been much better utilized over the long haul. I spent the better half of the BDM mourning not only the loss of Book and Wash, but all of the lost oppurtunities for great episodes. Maybe I should watch it with a different mindset and I'll enjoy it the second time around.

Could it at least be agreed that if the series were to come back that most people would want it to take off after "Objects in Space" rather than the BDM?

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:26 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Well, I would. There was a discussion about that awhile ago, actually, and most people seemed to at least want the first season to be "complete" but then a lot of them said that after that first half-season, the next season should take place after the BDM.
The books are fairly easy to get ahold of; they're still in print, anyway. The comics were all put into one little graphic novel called "Serenity: Those Left Behind" and is usually in the comic sections of bookstores. And any can be ordered.
Alan Tudyk and Ron Glass were both signed for three movies, plus the Visual Companion to the movie had a picture of Alan as Wash with the caption "A character that, according to Josss, could return in another film" or something to that effect. No one is sure if it will be flashback, resurrection, River seeing ghosts, or some other strange thing, but there is a lot of speculation.
And, just from a storyteller's point of view, think about the possibilities of exploring Zoe's character in all this. Especially if there's a reunion of some sort. I have yet to see anything that convinces me that's even possible, but if it were to be done, Joss could do it.

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98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature (it counts even though I'm not a teen anymore)

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Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:49 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

I'll have to check the books out. My brother has a whole mess of SiFi books, so he might already have some of them. I see someboyd put (Spoiler Warning!) on my thread. Sorry if I spoiled anything for anybody.

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Monday, June 26, 2006 12:07 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Oh that was me. You probably didn't, it's just that most threads or anything else that speaks of the death of Wash is still considered spoilerific. New people see the series all the time, and join up before they're done, and they should find out what happens the "proper" way.

I can't tell you how mad I was at my local screening when someone behind me started talking about Wash being dead, as I was there with a friend who had never seen the movie. We barely finished the series before the screening. She was like "What did he say? Wash doesn't die, does he?" What was I supposed to say?

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98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature (it counts even though I'm not a teen anymore)

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Monday, June 26, 2006 12:14 AM

6IXSTRINGJACK

No worries. I'm glad you put that on there then. I really wasn't thinking about it at all. I've never joined a fan group for anything before and I guess I just assumed that all of you in here have seen it all and know all about it anyhow.

I'm real glad that I waited to watch Firefly though because I just got my 51" widescreen and it was a beautiful site. Serenity even looked good on it.

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Monday, June 26, 2006 6:59 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

I'll be honest, you lost me at the "escape" part.

But FYI - Equilibrium was an updated version of Farenheit 451.

And the movies you mentioned have nothing to do with Serenity. I just don't see how you got there.

I also don't see the point in your post.

Sorry, I just don't.

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Monday, June 26, 2006 7:48 AM

MSG

Not flaming you just seriously don't agree. I think the BDm gives new depth and meaning to characters and a great starting point for the next step be it sequel or new series...

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Monday, June 26, 2006 1:50 PM

JIGMAN

I kind of agree and disagree with you, man. I agree that the BDM had at times what seemed to be a bit of a rushed plot to fit a movie format(maybe he should have gone peter jackson on it and made it superlong), and that the show just would not be the same if it were to pick up right where the movie left off. This is why I am hoping for more movies, because that way it can keep to the grander storylines that the BDM has put forth. However, if you want to see what the movie would have been like stretched into a tv season, check out stillflying.net it is pretty cool what they got going over there in script form. As for the BDM being similar to other movies, honestly I never make connections to other stories with the one before me unless it is completely blatant. That way a person can become engrossed in the story, rather than thinking on some other story they have already heard. I am not sure what else to say or how to close, so I am gonna just shut up now.

-------------------------------------------------
All good things must come to an end.

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Monday, June 26, 2006 3:10 PM

JONQUIL2006

6IX, I'm new here too, welcome. I agree with you 6IX. It might not be the same, but you know that we'd all love it. It's Mal, it's Zoe, it's Kaylee, and it's Wash. I think that the movie can be wrapped up into something different, like you said a dream of River's. I just think that if Joss brings back Firefly, he needs to go all the way like he did the first time. Bring it all back or nothing at all. Joss never did anything half-ass before, look at Buffy and Angel. He did those shows great! And I think he can do this again, but the problem is that FOX never gave Firefly a chance, also they didn't think it would get such a following like we have now. They cancelled it because of some stupid reality show or something like that. But it's out of our hands right now. If Joss wants to put Firefly back on the air for the fans, he'll do it. It just takes time.

When ya can't run, ya crawl and when ya can't crawl... you find someone to carry you

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Monday, June 26, 2006 3:33 PM

6IXSTRINGJACK

Amen my man

"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned."

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Monday, June 26, 2006 5:36 PM

NOSADSEVEN

Welcome, 6ixString. I understand your frustration with the movie, but I think it is misplaced. The frustration should lie soley with FOX.

FOX cancelled Firefly - ended it. Almost four years ago. It can't come back as it was. It won't be ressurected. What Firefly was, artistically speaking, cannot be recreated. We may get more of the 'Verse on screen - more of these characters - but Firefly as a thematic work of art, was ended at the end of 2002. Serenity is not Firefly, and leading up to its release, Joss tried to make no uncertain terms of that. It's even part of why he changed the name. (In an infamous recent interview with Entertainment Weekly concerning the future of the 'franchise', the interviewer misinterpreted Joss's explanation that Firefly is dead, as an assertion that the franchise was dead...leading to much consternation across the internet.)

I guess my point is, don't be mad at Serenity, be mad at FOX. They took something that even Serenity could not bring back (though it does help ease the pain). And keep in mind, there was either Serenity, or there was nothing. The only reason there is even talk of this 'verse continuing is because Joss pushed to get his story told, and the only avenue left to him was the movie.

Now, to address some random points brought up in this thread:

-Joss has said that were there to be another movie, Alan Tudyk and Ron Glass would most certainly be in it. (He did not specify how, but promised it wouldn't be cheesy.)

-Many off-put fans found the movie easier to digest and embrace with the passage of time and repeated viewings. I highly recommend it.

-I think the crew could go back to petty thievery (though certainly with greater difficulty), because it wasn't the military or police arm of the Alliance after them, it was an operative of the Parliment - a man with no name or rank, who likely answered to the "key members of Parliment" himself. While he had the resources of the Alliance at his disposal, it's not like the whole complex was after them, and I imagine that those members of Parliment's desire for revenge is not enough to warrant wasting such vast resources on the crew - especially if their position is already weakened.

-Mal's change in character, is not out of character, so much as character development. He is in a crappy place at the start of the movie (a result of hard times, and Book and Inara's departures), but he is still just trying to get by - he even says so to the operative at the training house. Even at the turning point you point out (when their friends are all wiped out), Mal chooses to go to Miranda not to take down the Alliance, but simply to survive. What they find on Miranda changes his motiviation - it brings him purpose, not just to survive, but to "speak for these people", most likely at the cost of survival. He has no real illusion that the Alliance is going to crumble as a result.

-The possibility of Book and Wash's deaths being in vain doesn't make them meaningless - it makes them all the more painful for our crew to have had to endure. From a viewer's perpective, Book's death served the story in Serenity (pushing Mal forward), and Wash's death served the experience of Serenity (putting the audience in the unsettling position of realizing that any of the remaining crew could die).

Just remember the closing lines of the pilot episode:

MAL: We're still flying.
SIMON: That's not much.
MAL: It's enough.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Tuesday, June 27, 2006 5:30 AM

MRSU

NOSADSEVEN - you summed it up beautifully, I just have a few things to add.

Yes, Firefly the series were killed by FOX and they would NEVER come back, all we were left with were 14 bright sparks to treasure. All that Joss could give us was this movie or nothing. So that's the fact, we just have to live with it.

Now, 6IXSTRINGJACK: I can understand your frustration. That's how I felt when I popped out Serenity DVD for the 1st time, having watched it after the show. I felt cheated and depressed: it wasn't the show I loved, I couldn't recognize the characters: they were pale, faded copies of themselves, the movie looked cheap and messy, many action bits looked unnesessary and silly and were taking away from the character development I mostly cared about. And the actors didn't play their parts as well as in the show, it seemed.
I remember being appaled by the passing through Reaver ships junkyard: how many Reaver ships would you need to completely block the orbit of the large planet, heck, not just the orbit like a circle - orbit like a sphere! It must be a number with about 100 zeros after it. I'm sorry, it looked so absurd it threw me off.

But the movie grew on me: it has many layers of meaning which you can appreciate with repeat viewings. And I was finally reconciliated with it after June 23rd screening: it looked so much better on a big screen. It has harsh, contrast lighting which doesn't translate well to DVD: that's why people on DVD looked like darkened-out siluettes a lot of times and I was missing on their mimics etc. But on the big screen the characters really came alive: for example I finally saw how good Kaylee was in it.

And now for your question about petty theft: well, I was bored by it in the show and I wouldn't be sorry to see it go in the sequel, if there ever would be the one. I even FF petty theft moments when I rewatch the show.
Mal is pretty bad as a petty thief: in fact he is pathetic. It's not his lot: he doesn't fit in, he just wanders blindly i the woods. The only heists which were interesting to watch in the show for me were the ones in Ariel and Trash, and they were planned by brilliant outsiders, not by him.
And the characters he had to encounter at the bottom of society are sordid, disgusting and boring too: they are colorful to look at at first but I got tired of them after about 30 seconds. Joss mentioned on DVD commentary to BDM that he had to cut down a lot on Fanty and Mungo - and I'm thankful for that.
I see it as trying to be cool but failing on Joss's part: it's not his strength to create this lowdown and dirty atmosphere, his strength are characters and their passions, not this. It reminds me of the recent facsination with "tough" guys, tattoed fishes etc. in SpongeBob SquarePants show and movie: it's boring, silly and not what it's all about.

Mal is great as a captain, as a soldier, as a betrayed veteran who is lost in the woods: that's what makes him interesting for me, not petty thefts. And I'd be very interested to see where he can go next, if he will find the way out of the woods or die trying. And getting out of the woods doesn't mean bringing Alliance down or any such nonsense on the epic scale: just finding a different place in life, a different way to survive and stay free. I surely hope that if there would be a sequel River will come into her own, as a genius she is, and they wouldn't bog her down with just helping to rob some stores and flying the ship. She can do a lot, now she's back to herself. It would be interesting to see how all of the characters would adapt to this new situation.

And yes, I'm with you 6IXSTRINGJACK that if Firefly show were picked up (but it won't be) it should be picked up from Objects in Space and not BDM.

And I'm also almost with you on rushing relationships. Kaylee had definitely grown in the movie vs. show, she is no longer a silly girl picking the worst possible moments to flirt with the man or demand his affections, or overreacting to his awkwardness. She is grown-up woman now, caring, accepting, and a bit sad. And she understands Simon better in BDM vs. the show. But I didn't see that much progress on Simon's part, and I didn't feel that his words to her in the final battle ring sincere: it felt like he was trying to show feelings which weren't yet there, he was just cheering her up and later was cought back on a promise. But still there's another way to look at it: him being able to go on with his life and with Kaylee means that he also got his salvation and release after River got hers, being freed from Miranda. I.e. it symbolizes that his quest on saving River, the quest which took him 3+ years, is finally accomplished and he can go back to normal life.
Yes, it looked fast in the movie as they didn't have time to show all the moments in between, but I can buy it in a way by inserting the missing pieces on my own.

Also I'm not at all reconciled with the opening of the movie (Simon resquing River) and how it grates with the show. It grates me not because it was Simon - I can live with that, but because so much knowledge was revealed to him about River, it devalues his trying to find out what happened to her and despairing over it, in the show, it cheapens it.
But I found a way to reconcile it for me. I view it as River's dream - her dreaming how her brother is saving her while she's asleep in the facility and later in the cryo. And the part where Operative looks at the freezed frame - again, she reads the Operative and overlays her brother's image on it.

So yes, BDM is not a perfect solution for Firefly universe, but it was the only one possible, and I'm grateful for it.

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Thursday, July 6, 2006 3:58 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Been out of it for a while, sorry for the late reply.

Quote:
Originally posted by 6ixStringJack:
1) Would you agree that "The Arrival" with Charlie Sheen would have been a better comparison to Serenity than the others mentioned?

Yeah, I'd go for better, but to be honest I think I'd go with Behind Enemy Lines above that, if I'm not getting movies mixed up (I only saw it once and that was a while ago) of course in that the message to be gotten out was about genocide, and it was being done by the subject of another government (US pilot in a different country) but the thing is that The Arrival is about a current invasion by outsiders (aliens), Serenity is about remembering those who were wronged over a decade ago by their own people.

Quote:
2) Do you think that Mal would have pressed 666?

In Snake's place I think he'd do without a second thought, but if he had a thing that could shut down all power in the Firefly verse? No. For one thing that'd kill Serenity, his home, for another it leaves you worring about more than just planes in flight. You can get from any point on earth to any other point on earth without power, it just isn't easy or quick. You can't get from one planet to another when you're stuck in a new dark age. Everyone is stranded, and that could mean death for the populations of whole worlds.

The reason I say that is because I don't think the border moons are like Earth. If you live in a place that survives on mining here and the food shipments stop coming in you can move to a place where you can grow stuff, whether or not you'll manage to stay alive is unsure, but you have a chance. Even if the climate shifts and the land becomes barren you can move somewhere else, entire civilizations have moved in the past, but if on a newly tereformed world it could be that the only place is the one your in.

I think that people on a newly teraformed world where the people only have blankets and a herd probably need at least some help to get by, help that would be totally impossible if Mal pressed 666. No matter how remote or poor or dependant no one on earth would have been in that situation when Snake did the same.

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