Revolvers In Space by TinyTimm

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Revolvers In Space

POSTED BY: TINYTIMM
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 16:56
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VIEWED: 4715
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Sunday, July 28, 2002 10:52 AM

Having consulted my "Traveler" TM Handbook and other sources the use of a revolver in space makes considerable sense.

The advantage of a revolver over other weapons is it's flexibility of ammunition. I can take a common revolver, say a Ruger .357 GP-100, http://www.ruger-firearms.com/rvmedium.html
and load it with, a wax bullet in a .38 Special case(used for target practice in the living room), a bird shot cartridge, in a plastic capsule loaded into a .357 magnum case (used for short range snake defense), a 148 grain wadcutter (used for target practice), a 130 grain jacket bullet round (issued by the US Army for compliance with various policies), and a 158 grain lead hollow point bullet in a .357 magnum case (used by many Police agencies).

I can fire all these from the same weapon, one after another and hit a target at 15 feet, with varable effects on the target. There are all sorts of exotic ammunition available for the revolver including the famous "short stop" round, which was a piece of high strength nylon cloth with bird shot (small lead pellets) glued to it. When fired it had devastating effects at a few feet, but if the Sky Marshall firing it missed and hit the internal wall of an airliner, it wouldn't have any effect on the fusilage.

The game "Traveler" TM proposed the use of all sorts of SF ordnance which could be launched from a revolver.

So, it isn't as silly as it may sound at first.

Jeff
Who has fired a revolver or so during his time on earth.

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Sunday, July 28, 2002 10:57 AM

COMMONSENSEMAN

Well they indeed do use guns in Firefly but I am not so sure they are the standard Revolver as you would imagine.

A close up of Mal's gun reveals it lookes just like a revolver but it has no cylinder, and after seeing an episode where he shoots it I never saw him reload.

But that proves nothing.

I will have to go back and check out the episode again closer as they do have a ragging gun fight at one point.

Out.................

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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Sunday, July 28, 2002 11:19 AM

COMMONSENSEMAN

Well I tried to update my previous post but it was having none of that so I will just post it here.

Okay I went back and took a closer look at the episode I saw and here are my observations.

As I said Mal's gun no cylinder and he has no ammo on his gun belt, he never reloads but is only shown shooting 5 shots in a row in one continuous scene, so technically he did not have a need to reload.

Zoe has a rifle and a revolver her revolver does have a cylinder and she has about 8-10 shells on her belt, but she is only shown using the rifle and she never reloads.

Jayne has a modern looking revolver with a cylinder but the holes in the cylinder (the ones you see when you look straight at the gun) are about half the size of a pea so the shells would be tiny. He has not ammo on his belt either.

Jayne is shown using a sniper rifle that is a breech loader and he does expel a shell at one point but it does not show him loading another, even though he fires the rifle more than once.

They show others with ammo belts on but no one is shown reloading. And other than the shell that Jayne expells no other used shells are shown.

At one point a character uses a automatic with a visible hole for the shell to be expelled, but when he fires there is no spent shell or sound effect of a shell hitting the floor.

So you guess is as good a mine on this one I think Joss is using a variety of different scenerios which would be logical as only the Alliance or people with money would have the more advanced weapons.

Out.................

All are welcome at http://theannex.curvedspaces.com

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Sunday, July 28, 2002 12:33 PM

ZICSOFT

The "policies" Jeff refers to is the Geneva Convention, which forbids military use of small-arms bullets beyond a certain weight and also bullets that expand on impact. Domestic organizations, such as police departments, are not bound by this treaty. This little bit of irony is, of course, the source of the movie title Full Metal Jacket

I'm not a weapons expert, but I'm told that the M-16 exploits a loophole in these rules -- the absence of a limit on the velocity of bullets. M-16 rounds are relatively small, but fly so fast they have the stopping power of heavier rounds. They also generate a sonic boom that makes even a near miss dangerous.

Anyway, the "short stop" rounds Jeff mentions strike me as particularly appropriate for spaceship boarding actions. Wonder if we'll hear them mentioned on the show?

Hmm, used to know a guy who had served on nuclear subs. He was part of the "repel boarders" team. Never thought to ask him what kind of weapons they used.

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Monday, July 29, 2002 11:30 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
The "policies" Jeff refers to is the Geneva Convention, which forbids military use of small-arms bullets beyond a certain weight and also bullets that expand on impact.

Its not nearly that simple. The "full metal jacket" rule was actually German Propaganda. They had to use FMJs to function in their Semi-auto Lugers, therefore they launched a propaganda attack on the Brits and French who used lead bullet revolvers in both wars. A sidearm is strictly emergency kit and largly irrelevant in war. If you know you are heading into trouble you bring a rifle, as the most adaptable and effective weapon one person can handle.

Quote:

I'm not a weapons expert, but I'm told that the M-16 exploits a loophole in these rules -- the absence of a limit on the velocity of bullets. M-16 rounds are relatively small, but fly so fast they have the stopping power of heavier rounds. They also generate a sonic boom that makes even a near miss dangerous.

You've been listening to the wrong people. M-16 rounds have been found in actual shooting tests on pigs, by the Swedish Government (who heard the same propaganda you did, don't feel bad ;->), to have roughly the same wounding effect as 9mm pistol rounds out of a submachinegun. Having worked the butts (a ditch where targets are prepared and scored) down range the sonic boom effect is quite easily handled by earplugs. The Sweds adopted the 5.56 round after the tests.

The Geneva and Hague conventions only restrict ammunition designed to inflict suffering, and limit a few other practices, hopefully someone will obey most of them someday.

Jeff
Who had to attend "Law of Land Warfare" briefings once or twice a year for nine years. And who never felt disadvantaged carrying the M-16A1, of course the 40mm Grenade launcher under the barrel helped. ;->

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Monday, August 19, 2002 10:57 AM

TINYTIMM

Just studied the long trailer for FF.

Zoe has herself an old cut down .44-40 Winchester. If it's the same source it might even be the one Nick Adams carried in "The Rebel."

Jeff
Who prefers pistols to be pistols and rifles to be rifles (or carbines)

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Monday, August 19, 2002 2:07 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Just studied the long trailer for FF.

Zoe has herself an old cut down .44-40 Winchester. If it's the same source it might even be the one Nick Adams carried in "The Rebel."

Jeff
Who prefers pistols to be pistols and rifles to be rifles (or carbines)

As long as you're in gun curator mode, have a look at the revolver behind handled 2/3 through this video:

http://www.fox.com/firefly/video/goodies.mov

Is that something that actually exists in the present day? And do you know anything about the tools on the table in the background? Back up the video about 30 secs for a closeup.

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Tuesday, August 20, 2002 11:41 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
As long as you're in gun curator mode, have a look at the revolver behind handled 2/3 through this video:

http://www.fox.com/firefly/video/goodies.mov

Is that something that actually exists in the present day?

One of the tools on the table was the Winchester cut down rifle I mentioned earlier. The revolver being handled looked like a civil war era Hopkins and Allen cap and ball revolver, with a pivoting sheet steel cover added, along with a CO2 cartridge from a Crossman pellet gun and a modern "universal" mount added to the barrel. The mount allows clamping on of optics, illuminators and other accessories.

The long thing with the red button looks like one of those silly collapsing pole arms that were popular amoung the criminals of my youth. One item looked like an old fashioned Hypodermic needle like I saw at the Smithsonian a while back.

The long item loosely coiled looked like a short toilet snake or a fiber optic gizmo for viewing inside stuff. The large number of items with pointy ends remind me of projectiles w/o cartridge cases. Other than that nothing looked familiar.

Jeff
Who is a sucker for tech-museums everywhere. The USS Cod closes Labor Day in Cleveland.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 5:03 AM

ZICSOFT

Civil War? That's funny. My first reaction to that pistol was that it was some kind of futuristic weapon designed with a retro look.

Hey, been to the Exploritorium in San Francisco? Actually more science than technology, but hands-on interaction is encouraged. And the whole place has a rough-edges feel that makes the techno-geek feel at home.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 5:07 AM

ZICSOFT

Haken, "update post" is broken!

Civil War? That's funny. My first reaction to that pistol was that it was some kind of futuristic weapon designed with a retro look.

I'm betting that the hypo is exactly what it looks like. Hard to get disposable needles 100 light years from Johnson and Johnson.

Never been to the Smithsonian.

Probably just as well -- if I ever went into a place like that, I'd never be able to leave!

Hey, been to the Exploritorium in San Francisco? Actually more science than technology, but hands-on interaction is encouraged. And the whole place has a rough-edges feel that makes the techno-geek feel at home.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 10:22 AM

ZICSOFT

Hey Jeff, did you see anything else that looked to you like a compressed gas container? Your comments on the revolver made me think of a new theory: in this future, a lot of weapons would be based on historical designs, but wouldn't necessarily use historical propellants. One possibility is that these people are better than we are at handling gases at very high pressures. Which is an idea Whedon might have stolen from Stirling's Drakaverse.

Indeed, if any props look like they were copied from the Smithsonian, it's probably because they were. It makes sense that potential space colonists would raid the place for designs that could be manufactured with an impaired industrial base.

This is not the first time I've heard the Smithsonian considered as a weapon design repository. I remember in the late 80s, there was some concern that aggresive countries would go there to copy V2 missles, and other things that might prove useful to people who can't buy from Boeing or General Dynamics. Fortunately, Sadam Hussein only likes high-tech weapons, even though he doesn't really have the industrial base to support them.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 10:46 AM

HAKENDAGRUNT

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Haken, "update post" is broken!

How is it broken?

Seeing doubles...

Hmm...let's try an update here.

Updated fine.

What was the error you got?

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:05 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Civil War? That's funny. My first reaction to that pistol was that it was some kind of futuristic weapon designed with a retro look.

We have firearms going back to the dawn of gunpowder in production today. The Italians make copies of all the major civil war long arms and handguns. Usually better than the originals, but I'll examine the current production when it's a century old and reevaluate that opinion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Hey, been to the Exploritorium in San Francisco?

Only the one in Columbus, Ohio and that was about 1986 when I was there for the civil rights march.

Jeff Timm
Who goes where the techno geeks goes.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:22 AM

TINYTIMM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Hey Jeff, did you see anything else that looked to you like a compressed gas container? One possibility is that these people are better than we are at handling gases at very high pressures.

Actually, I checked some research materials and found an old Crosman revolver looking pellet gun with a gas cylinder in just that positon, Slung under the barrel where it's easy to change.

Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Indeed, if any props look like they were copied from the Smithsonian, it's probably because they were.... This is not the first time I've heard the Smithsonian considered as a weapon design repository. I remember in the late 80s, there was some concern that aggresive countries would go there to copy V2 missles,...

Professionals tell me the V2 is too dangerous to build. You can buy better components off the shelf. What the pros worry about are shipping containers from Pakistan, the Phillipines and Indonesia in the middle of the Christmas shipping rush.

Jeff Timm
Who notes the most difficult part of missile design is getting the warhead back into the atmosphere and getting it to detonate somewhere useful.

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Wednesday, August 21, 2002 4:18 PM

ZICSOFT

Quote:
Originally posted by HakenDaGrunt:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zicsoft:
Haken, "update post" is broken!

How is it broken?

Seeing doubles...

Hmm...let's try an update here.

Updated fine.

What was the error you got?

I make a post. Then I decide to revise my post. I edit the post. When I click "update" I go to the main page, and the post is unchanged. Not the first time, actually. Happens on and off.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:45 PM

SUCCATASH

That's strange, it seems to work fine on my computer.

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 4:31 PM

ZOID

Zicsoft:

Hi, tech support here. What browser are you using and what version? Also, check your security settings aren't too high. Do you use a pop-up stopper or other internet 'utility' package? Could be any number of things; but those are the first to check.

To Tinytimm, especially:

Grrrreat thread. Post more!

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"I'm telling you right now. When all's said and done, that little girl's gonna change the world. Not just this little bit she's done here, neither; big things. I couldn't be prouder if she was my own daughter."

- Malcolm Reynolds, owner-operator of Firefly-class transport, "Serenity"; from A Child Shall Lead Them: A History of the Second War of Independence Wilkins, Richard

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Wednesday, May 26, 2004 4:56 PM

GUNHAND

This is old. But good.

And I'll second that the .357 is a very good caliber. And the fact that it can handle all manner of loads, means you can actually afford to practice enough with it to stay sharp without going into a financial hole and at the same time have a weapon with some actual power in it, that you're familiar with from long use.

Lots of people I know use .22s to keep "sharp" with accuracy but then as soon as they try to get off that 2nd round with their "real gun" .40 S&W or what have you they float it.

I've had plenty of firearms instructors and they all have (sometimes wildly) different views on how you should shoot but I've found (and told people) that you can be Annie Oakley with a .22 and with your first shot from a big bore pistol, but what happens if you can't hit the broad side of a barn with it on the second and subsequent shots? If your first shot drops a target (and let's be real here I'm not talking a paper target) then you're in a world of hurt if you can't follow up accurately.

Shooting is an odd thing, some people are born with it, some people learn to be really good but no matter what if you don't practice with what you'll actually be shooting (when it means something not your plinker) then you're not as well off as someone who puts a couple hundred rounds through it a week no matter what their "natural" skill level is.

Yeah that was long and rambly, but I'm like that.

So a .357 is a good choice for a weapon and it's one of the top 3 I tell people to get if they ask me my opinion on what they should get. Which, to be honest, is an oddly frequent occurance. The reason I prefer it is that I also got a Winchester 93 Trapper in the same caliber, only having to pack one caliber means you can carry more (or more types) for the same weight as if you were packing say a .30-30 and a .45 for instance. You can do the same thing with a revolver in .44 Magnum or .45 Long Colt and a Winchester in the same chambering but I prefer the .357 myself because of the relative cheapness of ammunition over the other two.

But I am sorely tempted to pick up the .44 Beretta single action and Winchester Legacy combo I saw for sale a few weeks ago...

~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
"Oh hey, I got an idea. Instead of us hanging
around playing art critic till I get pinched by
the Man, how's about we move away from this
eerie-ass piece of work and get on with our
increasingly eerie-ass day, how's that?"

My eerie-ass website:
http://gunhandsfirefly.homestead.com/Index.html

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