Male and Female Imponderables--Let every eye negotiate for itself by Tristan

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 3:19 AM

DeepGirl, I haven't said hello in awhile, so "hello!"
Yes, just like shooting someone politely.

Heck, with the advice we have been dishing out in here, a first time dater should have no problems at all. Matter of fact, prospective daters of both sexes should read these threads...might cut out on all the strife later in their relationship.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 3:20 AM

WHITEFALL

Bah, dont make me whip out the "human interaction is scary" speech from Wonderfalls! Cause Jaye aint wrong!

"But, these strong women characters?"

"Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't write strong women characters?" -Joss Whedon

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Friday, July 28, 2006 3:23 AM

Ola, Tristan, how goes it? I hope you're feeling better.

If only the rest of the world read the Imponderables. Of course, I tend to find that the rest of the world is not nearly as enlightened as we.

Oh well. We'll just have to start converting the world, one person at a time (or is that too Alliance-y?)

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"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

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Friday, July 28, 2006 3:30 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

No, because the Alliance doesn't sit everyone down and explain things to them; they just say "You will do what you are told and your life will be good. Don't make us shoot you!" And it's not really one person at a time.
Getting into a completely different topic, I like a lot of Alliance beliefs and policy, they just obviously got a little full of themselves and wrecked it.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 3:50 AM

COPILOT

ARRRRGGGG someone explain why even though I fell alseep long after I last looked at the clock (1:3?am) I'm awake at 6:37am anyway? I hate this! Whenever I wake up as long as it's been more than three hours falling back asleep is like trying to swim in air? That last part put in bacuse I do that in my dreams constantly. Like flying or running really reallly fast.

Also I've decided that breaking up should be like removing a bandaid on trash day! Rip it off really fast put it in the trash can and the transfer it to the dumpster! (I live in an apartment) Then go back inside and try not to listen as the trash men empty it! Translation-Continuing to work for the same company as FSO has seriously slowed the healing process. Only 11 days left!
Only 13 till I move away! Yippie!
!

An I carried such a torch

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:08 AM

PAGANPAUL

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
She has three fantasy novels out currently; usually in "teen" or "young adult" sections of stores. They are called "The Seer and the Sword" "The Healer's Keep" (my personal favorite) and "The Light of the Oracle" under the author Victoria Hanley.

Shiny! I have an 11 year old daughter who loves fantasy, as well as two more who will soon be old enough to appreciate it.

The Seer and the Sword
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0440229774/sr=1-1/qid=1154095045/ref=
sr_1_1/103-4974696-9802219?ie=UTF8&s=books

The Healer's Keep
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/055349435X/sr=1-2/qid=1154095045/ref=
sr_1_2/103-4974696-9802219?ie=UTF8&s=books

The Light of the Oracle
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385750862/sr=1-3/qid=1154095045/ref=
sr_1_3/103-4974696-9802219?ie=UTF8&s=books

I've just ordered a copy of each one from Amazon, and will probably read them myself as soon as Alex is finished with them.

* - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * - * -

流口水的婊子和猴子的笨儿子。
Liou coe shway duh biao-tze huh hoe-tze duh bun ur-tze.
"Stupid son of a drooling whore and a monkey."

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:15 AM

PENGUIN

http://www.victoriahanley.com/

Wow...she has a daughter!

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:26 AM

DeepGirl, don't look at it as Alliance-y...we are bringing enlightenment to others. Showing them there is a better way...kinda like the Independants.

Copilot, that would be wonderful! Let's see if we can't work that into real life somehow...

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:29 AM

I know, Tristan, but I just can't get this line out of my head:

We're making a better world. All of them...better worlds.

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"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:30 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Hehehe, yeah, how about that?

I think you'll really enjoy them, PaganPaul. And hopefully my mom will hear from your daughter!

*Shameless promotion* Leave her good reviews if you love it; it's good for her sales and her mood

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:32 AM

DeepGirl...hmm. Never thought of it that way. But we're not meddling, really...we're just putting information out into the cortex for others to benfit from...

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:42 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I must be going; I may or may not be back, depending on how long errands take. But I will certainly see you all tonight!

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Friday, July 28, 2006 4:50 AM

PR, we shall be waiting. Have fun!

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:09 AM

CP - Awww, everyone's already kicked the crap out of your FSO, there's nothing left to go after. Hmmm, well, *boots small bits of remaining FSO quite emphatically* *boot* *boot* There, that's better.

I think the start of the thread was imponderables between man and women? Here's one - the biggest test of a relationship is when those involved realize they had different expectations about it, and they have to reconcile them. Or live with and accept them.

Why do people always bring such different expectations to a relationship? For some, they work it out naturally, others it can take years to bring out the resulting tension/anger from under the carpet...

Hmmm, wait, I think I'm pondering, maybe it wasn't the right thing to bring up...

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Wow, I forgot how much I like Led Zeppelin's Ramble On.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:14 AM

TrogMan, welcome!
Yes, we have been Impondering for something like 10 or more threads now...and we still don't have it all worked out yet. But, we're glad you could join us!

As for different expectations in a relationship...that's why communication is so important. And not just talking, I mean listening and making sense as well. I have been in relationships where the communication was wonderful, but there was the ocassional lack of understanding between us. Naked and articulate is sometimes not possible

.
So, yeah, it's important for both parties to understand the expectations of the other, and to find out if these expecatations are the same or similar...and if they are not, then is a compromise possible.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:32 AM

Tristan - thanks. You know, I like people who enjoy the pondering.

As you can probably tell, I am hitting that particular impoenderable in my relationship at the moment...unfortunately my wife is not-so-good at the communication part, whereas it is mostly easy for me (we love bucking stereotypes).

I am really de-lurking today, after 2+ years of mainly ... um ... watching. (Sounds bad).

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I've sung in choruses for 15 years, but Chiscester Psalms is still just as awesome as the first time I heard/sang it.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:36 AM

TrogMan, yes, I see you are one of the 4-digits...glad you de-lurked to play!

I will probably not be much help with your current problem. I have been married for almost two years to my second wife (she is wonderful...ask anyone here, I talk about her alot), and all is well. The first wife...not so much. Part of the reason we divorced was due to differing expectations and a serious lack of communication (she was a French national)...I can try to help, but I am also a very good listener. There will be peeps on this thread who will have better advice than I can put forth.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:47 AM

SPACEANJL

Differing expectations jumping out of the woodwork is very scary. Especially when you look around at the end of seven years and think 'who the hell are you? what happened to that person I fell for?'

Let's just say that finding out that you are being 'Stepford'ed ain't fun.

Writing is good therapy, mind. You can kick the go se out of someone and not get prosecuted.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:50 AM

Trog- Congrats on De-lurking. Lurked a while my self, but two years. DANG!
Not to pry, but what are your SO's issues. Thatis usually the best place to start. Alot of the women I'd been around with communication issues usually had some underlying problems. What were her parents like growing up? Alot of questions can open those lines of communication.
Most can be helpful here, (I tend to rant and vent mostly, but occasionally some good comes out of it.

Mornin' all. Everyone must be incredibly busy. I'd been in and out of the office so much that I gotta re-work the ass groove in my chair.

"...And them chains them chains
Their 'bout to drag me down"

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Friday, July 28, 2006 5:52 AM

Tristan -

Quote:
... differing expectations and a serious lack of communication ...

Yeah, sounds very familiar, the story of our relationship. We'll see what the future holds.

(We're having two conversations at once on two different threads - see, I'm still new at the posting!)

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Is it bad to like cottage cheese so much?

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Friday, July 28, 2006 6:09 AM

OK, a few responses (geez, sorry for the relationship dumping here, feel free to skip if that's not your thing) -

SpaceAnJL -

Quote:
Especially when you look around at the end of seven years and think 'who the hell are you? what happened to that person I fell for?'

Yikes, are you a mind reader? And yes, writing is good - I have a good journal, and this site is workin' for me today.

NvGHostRider - My wife had very controlling parents, no privacy as a kid, her home valued loyalty and obidience over truth and discussion, her siblings all ran away screaming but she stayed and endured. 180 degreees opposite of my young life (lots and lots of talking in my young life, the good kind, mostly). She can't talk about herself or her feelings or criticisms at all - she got punished for it when growing up.

Counseling for me has worked well for a few years, she just started last week (technically, progress). Both individual, not jointly. That would be the next step.

On one hand, I understand the causes, the reasons, the difficulties. I love her dearly. She still won't really let me "in", though, to really talk about and resolve our issues. Things are definitely "not-so-good", and I've tried the (very) direct approach, I just get more defensive pushing away, not Let's-work-this-out receptiveness.

The person I married is in there ...

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Loud music helps too.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 6:21 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I'm back!
Eurgh, yeah, see, that is exactly why I am up-front right from the start. I say "This is me and you ain't gonna change it. Do you like what you see or not?"
Sometimes expectations are also unconcious. I have recommended it before, but I really recommend a book called "Lasting Love" by Gay Hendricks and Kathlyn Hendricks, there are some wonderful things in there about the nature of communications and the commitments we may have without knowing it. It is quite excellent. Not that it's guaranteed to solve whatever problem it is you find yourself having, but it has helped me in all aspects of my life and how I relate to people, and I doubt it would hurt.
I try to let people know what I'm looking for from them and what they can expect from me. Sometimes it doesn't work, but I think it mostly does. It's just a matter of finding someone who can really accept all that now...
*edit becase I saw the post above me* One thing to put into practice right away is the "I feel" approach to talking about problems. Under no circumstances say "You are doing this" say "When you behave this way, I feel shut out, I feel you don't want to talk to me, I feel like I don't know you" etc. Whatever works. It takes the accusation out and can generally start some kind of dialogue. Generally. It's hard to stick to, but it can really work.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 6:35 AM

Good approach.

I've heard of that book. have you read Five Love Languages by Chapman? Very good, matches with me well. Her, not so much.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 6:37 AM

The I message is very effective (I teach a parent/teen group dealing with communication and feeling issues). PR nailed it.
When you , I feel . Lets both parties own up to the feelings being created by the actions (or lack of) of eachother. Saying "I hate it when you" or simply asking, "Whats wrong with you?" instantly create barriers that are difficult to break. Doesn't really help when the other person suffers silently.
Try it in subtle doses and in posative scenario's first. "When you help me do the dishes, I feel good because I get to spend time with you."
Sounds kinda sappy at first, but it really does work.

"...And them chains them chains
Their 'bout to drag me down"

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Friday, July 28, 2006 6:39 AM

NVG, morning! See, that's why I have a soft chair...no ass-groove to work around.

TrogMan, two conversations is alright...there are some people in here on about a dozen threads at once...don't know how they do it!
And you are not "dumping" when you talk on this thread. One thing we do is try to help each other by using our own experiences. Hopefully, we can help. If not, we are at least here for each other through rants, venting, and general other go se.

There should be a level of privacy within a relationship, but the one your SO has does not seem to be the good kind. The fact that she is going through counseling is promising; she is making the effort, it appears.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 6:39 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I haven't read it. I think it was mentioned a few threads ago, though, if it's what I'm thinking of. Might read it sometime if I run across it.

Gorrammit, I missed a couple posts in between! Oh well. Yeah, NV makes a good point. That kind of talking is also a good way of showing appreciation, the last and most important thing outlined in "Lasting Love".

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Friday, July 28, 2006 7:00 AM

Thanks to all. She is showing some effort, yes, and I need to start the "When you, I feel" approach - some homework for me there. Good idea to start with positives.

I think she and I have dug in our heels a bit - this could break out of those trenches. I hope it is in time.

What a good day for de-lurking! Such a good welcome.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 7:20 AM

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

to everyone, I need to sleep!
Hope to see more of you TrogMan!
'Night everybody!

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Friday, July 28, 2006 8:10 AM

'Night PR. Good hearin' from ya. Be looking for your awakening with all the Forsaken.

Question: Is anyone out there depressed like I am? Aside from the Ms. Incredible? fiasco, I have no woman to pine over. Time is so short for anything these days. With workin' and taking the kids to appointments and the few hours of sleep I hope I ain't displaying a lack of interest to the fairer sex. Just seems that I haven't given enough attention to the strange yet wonderful gazes offered to me lately.
Asked my bestest friend why women don't chase as hard as men. She had no answer.
Sucks when you actually want to be hunted by a hungry creature.

"...And them chains them chains
Their 'bout to drag me down"

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Friday, July 28, 2006 8:21 AM

ODDSBODSKINS

i'm totally in agreement that equality between the sexes should start with women feeling just as comfortable to make more initial moves, that would help with the whole 'does she like me or is she being polite' thing a hell of a lot.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 8:40 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:

Question: Is anyone out there depressed like I am? Aside from the Ms. Incredible? fiasco, I have no woman to pine over.

NV: I might just be more depressed than you about the lack of anyone to pine over.

I'm through with pining over Mr. PT. All I can say is "Sure.Fine.Whatever." Last person I pined over before him was over a year ago. And he freaked me out within a few weeks, so that was short lived. Before that was two years...that guys is now married.

I need to move to a bigger town. But, I LOVE it here. I just don't think I should have to settle for some 45 year old has-been with a beer gut, poor hygeine and a future of sitting on the front porch, spitting and drinking with his buddies. Yet, that's all I seem to attract. What's with that?

And where the hell is MSG? She's always good for some lively banter. Is everyone else hanging out on other threads these days?

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"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Friday, July 28, 2006 8:47 AM

MsG is on a camping trip. She said she'd be back in a few days.

I can relate to the whole depression thing. Sometimes I wonder if I'm going to spend my entire life waiting for the right person to show up (then again, how would I know the right person if I saw them?). *sigh*

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"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

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Friday, July 28, 2006 8:59 AM

I would like to say one of my greatest fears is just settling with whoever. But I ain't really scared of much more than heights and spiders. I just see myself doin' the same. It's not that the unsophisticated, aimless, baby machines of my town aren't good enough. I just hate wasting time and energy on something less than gratifying.

Ha! Has been, beer gut, spittin' and drinkin' with his buddies. Is that what your town offers?

I contend with them, squids of all sorts, and the guys who cheat on their wives (20percent of my competition). Think I'll just stay home.

Oh yeah, MSG is camping with her family.

Add: Guess Deepgirl beat me to the punch. Funny, can't really say I would know the "right " one if I ran into her either.

"...And them chains them chains
Their 'bout to drag me down"

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:06 AM

And I'm back...nice to know I am so useful:) Soooooo glad to be clean. I love camping, but if I could just get a shower:)
Anyway- best advice on a SO that had a controlling parent ( and gee do I ever know this well) is to NEVER directly engage. Simply point stuff out. Like while watching Firefly say " don't you love how Wash listens when Zoe talks and they chare how they feel? I think it really lets them stay connected when they feel all stressed" Then later ask if she wants to do some connecting. Another way to " get in" is to play a game like Loaded Questions ( board game available at most game stores) where you ask fun, silly, and sometimes challenging questions that can bring out hidden issues or feelings. Mainly I'd just say couseling is the best step and good luck

Man I missed you guys tons.
NV- don't be sad... You know I think you really just need to ask someone out. Not as a permanent partner thing, but just to get yourself back into the swing. A lot of times if women don't see a guy dating they figure he doesn't want to date and they leave him be, but if they see he's available and looking to go out they are more likely to start chasing...or go on vacation and let the hot babes chase you around ( oh yeah munchkin problem) You can always take a cruise with them and attract even more women:)Cruises are great with small ones 'cause they have lots of activities and things for small ones to do as well as babysitting so that you can go out to dinner and such:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:09 AM

Yay, MsG's back! Hope you had fun.

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"Now they see the sky and they remember what they are."

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:11 AM

RUGBUG

Oh yeah, camping. That's right.

And she's back before I actually post.

NV: That's not all there is here, but it is what is attracted to me. The rest are college students (too young) or young marrieds or old retired folks. Not much in my age range that is desirable. Mr. PT fits both categories, but he seems uninterested. The punk.

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"My feelings are changeable but intense" Anya (season 7 Buffy)

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:12 AM

oh it was tons of fun I had a blast, but it is sooo good to be home and clean and all:) My cute next door neighbor who has to be at least 75 always call on my birthday and when she called today I just realized I really have to figure out when her birthday is so I can return the favor...so does anyone know a good way to ask someone's birthday without seeming nosey>?

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:34 AM

Okay, so I'm just getting impatient and whining like a little sissy girl. One thing in the way this weekend: I told my sister I'd take her to see Clerks II in Reno. She's been dealing with the baby during the day and ain't been out much in the last month.

I was talking to my bestest friend the other night and she mentioned how great I am, (sent money for her perscription). She started to go off on how sweet and thoughtful I am with others. So I vented. Vented alot. I hate being sweet and thoughtful. S and T get you broke and lonely. Told her that my mouth has been taking over lately. Said, "If anyone else tells me how sweet and thoughtful I am I'll say 'Bendover, I'll show you how sweet and thoughtfiul I am'". Thats how I feel now. Occasionally, not all the time. Although, it has been getting worse.

Feels kinda good to surprize even the folks that know you the best.

Add: Little slow here. Just ask. "You've been so thoughtful on my birthday, I'd like to return the gesture on yours."

"...And them chains them chains
Their 'bout to drag me down"

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:37 AM

Um NV when I said take someone out...I didn't actually mean your sister ( just kidding I think it's a good idea to take her out as a thank you and all)I still think you should ask a woman out, just for a fun, casual date so you can show you're on the market:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:38 AM

MsG -

*sigh* When you say

Quote:
NEVER directly engage

that is just so hard. My whole approach to life is to engage, to discuss, to get it all out in the open and chew on it and fix it. Honest, lively, respectful debate and discussion. I was talking to my Mom and StepDad about this and they said "THAT will be the hardest part for you!" How true. And all the while I'm still frustrated and I am stuck waiting, waiting, waiting.

As for the birthday thing - does this person have relatives you can ask?

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:41 AM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Quote:
so does anyone know a good way to ask someone's birthday without seeming nosey>?

Wait for a warrant for her arrest to come up on the cortex?

Hey NV and Rugbug, you guys don't live anywhere close to each other, do you?

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:43 AM

yeah it is hard. It just makes your SO defensive and so I have learned to view it as I want my SO to be happy and if confronting or debating isn't their style then I can learn a new style:)After 10 years my husband and I have really managed a workable and great communication and I just wanted you to know this can work out really well:)

As for the relative thing that's a good idea. I will ask her husband. It was just so cute today when I got home and she called and sang happy birthday to me in her cutely accented ( she's german) voice. She's so sweet:)

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Friday, July 28, 2006 9:43 AM

@&%$^*! Gorram meetings! Cut into my FFF time!
Sorry, all, been away from the computer for a spell...seems like I missed some stuff.

NVG, I do get depressed every now and then, but I have the wife and you fine people to keep me up. As to why we don't get chased...women are generally not the "hunters"; present company excluded, of course. I have only once been actively pursued, and it was an odd turn of events. All will be well. Take time for yourself and go hunting! Half the fun is the pursuit!

RugBug, we are all here...some of us get taken away from time to time. And, were I single and anywhere near you, I would be interested. I am not 45, do not have a beer gut, nor do I have bad hygeine. I try not to spit too much, and only hang out on the front porch when the weather is nice, and I need a little break from projects. I have plans for the future; I just got started a little late. So, do know that there are people out here for you...just a matter of timing.

Welcome back, MSG!

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Friday, July 28, 2006 10:10 AM

Okay, so a little bit of oddness ensued during lunch.
MSG- Jaw dropped a bit. I have a few in mind, (mostly cashiers and collegues in other offices).

Tristan- I like to use lioness as an example. They hunt in packs.
Might have to reconsider the thought of being hunted. I feel a bit guilty putting my primative side to work. All the actual hunting I've done is under the guidelines of "You eat what you kill. Nothing is wasted. Honor your kill as family"
Alright, I get it now. Like I said, just a little slow.

CK- ?

"...And them chains them chains
Their 'bout to drag me down"

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Friday, July 28, 2006 10:15 AM

NVG, I like your philosophy. Hell, I like everything about you. You. The. Man.

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Friday, July 28, 2006 10:19 AM