financing season two by Alfred

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

financing season two

POSTED BY: ALFRED
UPDATED: Friday, January 23, 2004 10:13
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 8540
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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:15 AM

Forgive me if I'm repeating what's already been said.

As nice as a movie sounds, I would prefer another season. That said, why not sell shares in a company who's sole purpose is to produce season two?

Ethan Hawke is trying to do something similar with his next movie. Here's the company he's working with: http://www.civiliancapital.com/

Another example to consider is the bond issue that David Bowie did against royalties from his catalog.

What I'm proposing is that company X is established and shares are sold. Maybe $100 per share. If we reach the dollar amount to produce another season (I'm estimating $60M) then we get season two and the profits are distributed to shareholders. The company would be treated as a producer on the show and be compensated accordingly. If we fall short of the required dollar amount, all monies are returned to shareholders minus some administrative fee.

At worst, this is like any other high risk investment and at best, we end up with a second season and maybe even a decent return (although I would settle for the show). At the end of some set time (release date plus one year), the company is disbanded and all future profits go to Mutant Enemy (or some charity). A new company would be formed for each additional season.

Please provide feedback and poke holes in this idea. Does anyone know how we could present this suggestion to Mutant Enemy?

Thanks for listening.

Alfred

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:44 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I think this is an interesting idea, though I have some obvious reservations. Who would this company be and how would they collect the money? It is apparent they would have to collect the bulk of the money from fans and sponsors willing to take a chance on a show that "failed" once. I have no idea of the actual number of fans, but in order to come up w/ your figure of 60 million, 600,000 shares would have to be sold. I doubt the fanbase is anywhere near that. Even if everyone bought say three shares each, that means you still need to sell to 200,000 people.

Though this is a good idea, it seems to me that it would be a logistical nightmare.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:59 AM

GOATUS

and if no network is willing to buy the show there is no chance of having a return on your investment.. so good luck :P

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:35 AM

MRGREEN

Quote:
Originally posted by goatus:
and if no network is willing to buy the show there is no chance of having a return on your investment.. so good luck :P

That's obviously just not true. If that were the case, Universal wouldn't be even considering a movie at this point.

Now, I think the idea has merit, but it just needs to aim a little lower. Raising $60m is an almost insurmountable objective.

What would be slightly more realistic (but difficult none the less) would be to try and raise money not for a second season, but for the end of the first season. By my count, 9 more episodes would have made a regular season one. Lets round down a bit, even it out, and call it 8 more. That drops the goal to about $20 million. (A bit under $2million per episode, plus about $5million to get the sets back up, etc).

At $100 per share, a purchase within the means of almost anyone, that gives us only 200,000 shares to sell. Not that far flung.

Distrobution of the show would be a 2 DVD set, which could be sold at production/shipping costs to share holders (one set per share?) and at a reasonable markup to the general public.

Further, to actually make some money on these, I can see selling ad space on the discs. You could EASILY have 5 30 second spots per disc. One at the start of the disc, before the menu, and then one before each episode. Annoying? Yes. Profitable? Absolutely.

You can gaurantee the advertiser that at least 200,000 pairs of eyes would watch it (stock holdsers DVD sets), and if we could ever get some solid DVD Box set sales numbers for the original 13 from Fox, we would have a pretty good idea how many others would be buying the new episodes. Not alot of people by TV standards, but a more dedicated audience, and also an infinate number of impressions, since the ad would be on the discs permanantly.

Something similar to this was batted around when the show was originally canceled, but I think it didn;t get off the ground due to ME wanted to pitch the show to some other Nets and such.

I think the idea has some merit, and could succeed, but it's almost TOO grass roots for anyone to be willing to give it a try.

Sorry this was so long, I was eating lunch, and got carried away =p

Rob

If you can't run, you crawl, and if you can't crawl, well, if you can't do that, you find someone to carry you.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:55 AM

RIZZ

I'd buy 2-5 shares... only 199,995 to go...!

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:55 AM

KURUKAMI

That seems reasonable, but personally I think the individual shares should be a bit less than $100. Perhaps $25/share? That way, even the less-well-off among us browncoats could afford to invest in the completion of the first season. Also, in addition to the potential to purchase the DVD set for the base costs, perhaps those who held a certain amount of shares would be entitled to nifty extras.

Copies of the press kit, maybe?

Firefly-themed apparel?

I just find myself thinking of all those old PBS fund-raising drives. The more you contribute to the goal, the more benefit you might reap. I certainly can't see the harm in offering someone who contributed more than, say, $300, an "official Firefly brown longcoat".

History doesn't always repeat itself. Sometimes it merely shouts "Weren't you listening the first time?!?" and lets fly with a club.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:55 AM

RIZZ

I'd buy 5 shares... only 199,995 to go...!

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:01 AM

MRGREEN

Picking $100 was arbitray from the start of the post. Reason I stuck with it is because it makes the number of shares out there seem a little more managable!

Also, it would most likely take the better part of a year to raise that much money, and if you can't raise $100 in a year (less than $2 per week), well, you shouldn't be spending money on Firefly anyway!

Amother issue I didn't think of was taxes. If a company were raising this money, it'd certinly be taxable. Have to sell another 20,000 shares to payoff Uncle Sam. Then again, with Bush in office, if we were outsource our receptionist/order taker to India we could qualify for all kinds of tax breaks, and then they'd practically be paying US to make the show!

Rob

If you can't run, you crawl, and if you can't crawl, well, if you can't do that, you find someone to carry you.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:10 AM

ALFRED

Thanks for expanding on the idea. I think selling ad space is a brilliant idea.

My expectation is that the episodes would go out on dvd. ANy network pickup would be gravy.

Alfred

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:23 AM

JAYSEDAI

This is not unlike my Direct to DVD idea:

http://www.fireflymovie.com/directdvd.html

I've already gathered over 2000 names of interested subscribers.

However, from what I understand, your numbers are high. The 15 episodes (11.25 hours) of Firefly cost Fox somewhere in the neighborhood of $30-35 million, that includes the 8-10 million spent building the sets and creating the Pilot. What I would propose is not so much an entire season, but rather a series of mini-series, perhaps 8-12 episodes long. Not unlike an HBO season. Then it could be shopped around to various networks, as a finished product, or sold direct via DVD.

So the biggest hurdle (not counting intellectual property, and lawyers), would be re-building the sets. However, if Universal builds the set's for us, we would just need to strike a deal with them to allow us to continue using them. I'm not sure I could deal with having Serenity ripped apart a second time.

Jeremy

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:42 AM

RAINE

I love the idea of viewers having direct creative input into what's produced. Count me in. I'd invest up to $100 to see seed this revolutionary process.

How many times have I sat in front of the box, morosely channel surfing, thinking, why is it so hard for something good to get made and then stay on? (Jake 2.0, the only other decent show is getting cancelled as well).

It's obvious from you guys and this awesome firefly fans website that people are compelled by a project that has creativity, intelligence, love and passion.

Let's kick some corrupt butt and circumvent that grey, undead zone in the tv/movie production food chain. Forget vampires and demons, folks, they look like you and me (except with better exfoliation) and drive around in Porches and wear Prada and live in Brentwood.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:13 AM

TRASK43

I think this a great idea I could definetely spend $100-200. I also think if there was a finished product to show the networks theres a good chance someone would pick it up. The only problem is finding someone or a small group of people responsible and knowlegable to give it ago and set it up. Also if it was to be a sucess I think it would attract a fair bit of media attention which could help.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:13 AM

HERO

Would the board of directors get final script approval?

H

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:37 PM

STEVE580

Unlikely...but I'd pony up a good $500 - if I have to take out a damn loan, I'll do it. I could supply more than that, with the help of the firefly-fans I've 'sired'.

Yeah, if anyone ever has a way that me or any or my money can help this show in any way...lemme know.
-Steve

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 3:48 PM

ALFERDPACKER

I wouldn't want any direct fan involvment in the Firefly scripts. Joss gave us a project that we all liked well enough to be here for. Why not trust him to continue to do so?

In any case, Joss has said that he only wants to do Firefly if he retains complete executive and creative control.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:19 PM

SHINY

I'd be in for a share or two.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:56 PM

SPACEMONKEY

I'm in for a few $1000 if this gets going =-)

-James

AKA:

LadyHumper

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:07 PM

JCWANG

I'd absolutely contribute $100 or more and know several others who would as well. The problem is getting this off the ground. What we really need are people who will invest time and effort on the legwork to investigate and set it up. I wish I could volunteer but I wouldn't know what I was doing.

JCWang

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:21 PM

SPACEMONKEY

There’s also the problem with whom ever has the rights to Firefly. If it's Fox, I think this idea is as good as dead.

If it's not, maybe we can talk to whoever it is, maybe work out a deal. Not only is there the cost of building the sets, but getting the actors back together. I believe Adam is set to have a role on the new Stargate TV series, and Nat has a picture series deal with NBC I believe. Some of the others have contracts also.

Filming in Canada would be a must, if not somewhere cheaper like Mexico. Fox has a Massive set down in Mexico where they filmed Titanic. Labor is also cheaper =-)

ALOT of things change in a year, which is what it would take to get enough money together to do this(IF we REALLY TRIED), then after we have the money, and they saw we serious,(assuming we get the rights to do it) Joss would have to find time in his schedule to write up a story. Getting together the cast might be hard for the above stated reason, but I do believe they all want to do more with Firefly. It being a fan funded project, maybe they would all film at the union minimum cost for a project of this type. who knows?

I'm just tossing out random thoughts here, so please jump in.

I do think a direct to DVD series would work. I kow several people who would sign up for it.

-James

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 6:50 PM

BLUEEYEDBROWNCOAT

I'm in for a couple hundred $.
Of course, since I'm Canadian, $100 USD works out to be about $1000 CAD.

Oh, what the heck? Firefly is worth it!

I don't ask for much - just Firefly back on the air once a week.... oh, and maybe world peace.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 7:33 PM

TRASK43

wow we've already got alot of people willing to put money in. If we can find someone to get this going (any volunteers) I think it would be worth a shot as long as we can organize something so that people can get pretty much all their money back if it fails( or we could do something more creative like spend it on dvds and watch people be confused by the swift upturn in sales about a year after release) but I think we should try and give this ago. If someone with the capabilities could set up somthing to register interest we could see if we could get about 2000 people to agree in principle to one share (at $100) that would be $200000 and then if that was achieved I think we could give it a genuine attempt.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:11 PM

FOFFILMS

First off - I, as badly as everyone else want this show back. And I applaud the ideas batting around here.

But - to even consider doing what you propose you need FIRST to set up an LLC, a limited liability corporation to sell "shares", your share contracts need to be very specific, the money would also need to be held in an account where it would stay until the time it was used for production or determined that production would not commense and the share value would return (with any interest accrued) to the shareholders.

The task at the very base is herculean and would require the LLC chief financial officer to be employed at nearly a full time job.

Then the task would be to contact the right people at Mutant Enemy and Universal.

If you had the captal to finance an entire season, let's even conservatively call it 13 episodes. You would need a minimum of $50 million, at $2 million per episode, $10 million pre-production costs (sets, studios, employee payroll) and all the other associated costs, marketing etc...

Now let's say we get the 13 episodes picked up by a network - and remember... REMEMBER - Fox cancelled the show, Sci Fi passed, UPN passed, WB passed... Places that were built on Whedon PASSED on this show... Sad but true. Stupid but true. Pathetic, but TRUE.

And since this is produced with no studio financing (in our mythic world here) there is 0 incintive for the studio to put anythign behind the show, they have nothign on the line. Basically you're creating a syndicated show.

Okay, with few exceptions (Star Trek:NG) syndicated shows not high priority. Air at wierd hours (Andromeda anyone? Hercules?)

Okay, so now we know we're syndicated. Which adds another $10 million to marketing costs.

BUT - let's say Universal green lights the movie, now all the sets are BUILT! You offer universal a percentage of the show in exchange for sets, props...

Now you're cooking.

That's the most basic way to explain it.

Anyone up for it?

www.fof-films.com
Firefly Fan Film - Coming SOON

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:58 PM

MRGREEN

foffilms, have you read Jeremy, aka, the DVDguy's information? His websites direct to DVD page explains alot of things prety well.

If Universal does make the movie, and is pleased with it there's a decent chance of something happening...

Way I figure it, if the sets, cast, crew, wardrobe, props, etc are all lined up from the movie still, the pre-production costs to get a few episodes made would be pretty minimal. Just gotta get Joss/Tim to write a few episodes to get thing rolling again.

So, if things went well getting 6 or 7 million to bankroll the prodction of a few more episodes, on a trial basis may not be to far fetched. Selling them direct to DVD would be better than on TV, in my opinion. If an episode costs $2million to make, if people will pay $10 for the episode, then they only need to sell 200,000 copies to break even. Even at a bargain basement rate of $5, it's still doable. Firefly, even at its lowest point, had around 2 million viewers. Not to mention the UK and Canadian fans. I wouldn't be suprised if they could sell a half a million discs.

Add in some revenues from advertising on the discs, and I bet they could make some money.

(hm, call it 3 episodes per disc, $21/disc - about the price of a new movie on DVD, $2million per episode production costs, half a million subscribers, $4.5million in profits, plus any ad revenue... 175% return on the investment of $6million, assuming the sets are built for a movie).

Gah, and the merchandising... we would buy so much gorram firefly crap, its not even funny!

If you can't run, you crawl, and if you can't crawl, well, if you can't do that, you find someone to carry you.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:24 PM

NITEHAWK

OOh, i like! i'd go for it!

*click* *click*
"You, uh, know each other?"

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:46 AM

BRITCHICK

$100 a share seems very reasonable, especially if subscribers are entitled to a discount on the DVD.

If people can't afford $100 they could club together?

It sounds like we have a number of fans who would be willing to put their money where their mouth is, we just don't have anyone who is expert enough to make this happen.

So perhaps its time for Joss to help?

Just a thought :-)

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 3:41 AM

BOBSUNCORP

Does anyone know of any sites/groups, etc that Joss actually visits? Then we can add a link and suggestion that he or someone else intimately involved takes a look at all this.

-Bob

Don't take the sky from us!!

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:28 AM

SPACEMONKEY

something else to think about...How long has it taken to raise the $3000 for the DVD to troops fund?

I think alot of people WANT to see this happen, but not many would be willing to fork over cash until they saw the numbers start to really grow and have a good shot at getting this made.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:35 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by spacemonkey:
something else to think about...How long has it taken to raise the $3000 for the DVD to troops fund?

Anyone who has promised money to revive Firfely can be taken at their word, I'm sure.

There's a difference between a gift and an investment; between supporting a charity/cause and supporting something you believe in; between passively helping and actively driving!

Some good people here are supporting the troops. More will support the reason we come here.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:45 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by BobSunCorp:
Does anyone know of any sites/groups, etc that Joss actually visits? Then we can add a link and suggestion that he or someone else intimately involved takes a look at all this.

First of all I am all in favor of efforts to revive the show.

However, in my legal opinion, this idea is a nutty as a three dollar bill.

You want to start a production company, fine. But selling share in a company whose sole objective the the filming of Season 2. Frankly I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Next thing you'll be advocating us all moving to China and making the show there for 10 cents on the dollar and copyrights be damned. Hmmm...it would get more chinease people into the cast. We could arrange for Chinease intelligence to kidnap Joss and the original cast.

H

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 5:18 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I know I would be willing to put up some cash. I could part with $300 or $400, especially for Firefly.

I don't think you can directly compare the raising of funds for the DVD to Troops drive to this idea. Many people feel the Troops in Iraq are controversial & may not donate for that reason. Many people are hard to sell on a charity type drive that they can not directly see a result in. This idea would get us what we all want, Firefly for all of us to see and enjoy.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:10 AM

ALFRED

From the civilian.com website:

"A film IPO is a public offering of a special purpose company formed specifically to produce a feature film. Civilian film IPOs are expected to range in budget from $3 million to $25 million and encompass a wide range of genres. Scripts, producers and talent will be outlined in the offering prospectus. This information allows investors to make informed decisions based on the producer and director's track records, as well as the project’s originality and box office potential."

I sent them an email requesting more information.

I would expect ME to do most of the heavy lifting around establishing the LLC et al. We would be the money people and they would be the executive producer.

Thank you to everyone for helping to hash out this idea. Any chance of passing this thread to Joss?

Alfred

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:39 AM

JASONZZZ

Hero:

what are the good and bad reasons to selling shares for a company that will film "season 2"?

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Quote:
Originally posted by BobSunCorp:
Does anyone know of any sites/groups, etc that Joss actually visits? Then we can add a link and suggestion that he or someone else intimately involved takes a look at all this.

First of all I am all in favor of efforts to revive the show.

However, in my legal opinion, this idea is a nutty as a three dollar bill.

You want to start a production company, fine. But selling share in a company whose sole objective the the filming of Season 2. Frankly I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Next thing you'll be advocating us all moving to China and making the show there for 10 cents on the dollar and copyrights be damned. Hmmm...it would get more chinease people into the cast. We could arrange for Chinease intelligence to kidnap Joss and the original cast.

H

Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 10:47 AM

HERO

Starting your proposed company is neither good nor bad, but like everything else in the legal field, its complicated.

Here's a few off the top of my head.
1. You would need a core of initial investors to incorporate the company...or an agent willing to bear some risk.
2. Intial capital investment.
3. If your gonna sell shares you gotta deal with the SEC.
4. You need a board of directors (not TV show directors). You also need corporate officers. These things require shareholder meetings, a charter, and a lawyer to make sure your doing it all correctly.
5. You need the TV rights to Firefly.
6. I think the $50 million in costs is a pretty steep hurdle. I also think thats a conservative figure.
7. Essentially you a starting a production company, so if somebody working there knows something about running a production company, thats probably a good thing.

On the UP side:
1. There is probably a market. The show could be easily marketed in foriegn countries and to the Sci Fi Channel or Spike TV if not real a network.
2. Costs could be minimized by filming in other countries as well. I'd recommend New Zealand or Australia, but maybe Canada.
3. We could spin off Firefly merchandise and expand into other genres such as Role Playing, Computer Games, and novels...not to mention calanders, T-Shirts, Jayne Hats, Brown coats, etc.
4. Spin off series. There's are whole seasons and Little House and Bonanza to steal plots from.

I think that with the right people, resources, and execution it could work. Are we those people? Some of us probably could be.

That being said, Serenity Inc. is just $50 million and a copyright away.

Personally I think we stand a better chance of winning a class action suit against FOX for emotional distress.

Now a charitable organization to coordinate the DVD for Troops fund, website costs, fanclub activities, and militent anti-FOX TV operations, that could be done. If idiots like PETA (no offense to any PETAers, but they do life too seriously) can run a charitable then so can we.

H

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 2:01 PM

JASONZZZ

What are the details of the exact rights that Fox have? What about Universal?

I don't know what it is, but I am thinking of something like "Fox has TV rights for the US with only the first Nth episodes for certain time period, etc, etc." Or is it "Fox owns the TV rights to all episodes of Firefly (produced and yet to be produced) from here until eternity in the entire Universe" ?

Like Fireflyfans.net?
Haken needs a new development system. Donate.
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=5&t=3283

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Friday, January 23, 2004 6:22 AM

HERO

I think we should make our own show.

We could call it Lightning Bug.

Instead of a Western style space show with chinease influences it would be a space show with frontier themes and Japanease influences.

Ship could be called Harmony (named after Harmony Hill a tragic battle fought by during the war between the Union and the Free Spacers).

Captain Reynold Malcombs
First officer Cleo (she looks like a Cleo)
Pilot Shaw
Mechanic Kelly
Mercenary John
Novel the monk
Doctor Simone and her insane little psychic brother Tributary.
Anari the B-girl, bag, bawd, bimbo, blower, broad, call girl, camp follower, cat, chicken, chippie, concubine, courtesan, fallen woman, floozy, harlot, hooker, hostess, hustler, loose woman, midnight cowboy, model, moll, nymphomaniac, painted woman, party girl, pickup, pink pants, pro, scarlet woman, slut, streetwalker, strumpet, tart, tomato, tramp, trollop, white slave, whore, or working girl.

There. Now we don't even need the copyright.

H

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Friday, January 23, 2004 6:53 AM

KASUO

"I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see one. And there's Magnetbox, and Sorny."

----
"Let's moon 'em!"

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Friday, January 23, 2004 10:13 AM

BOCMAN

This is a great core of ideas.
I would however suggest that perhaps we don't think of financing the whole series but we could be responsible for a portion of the production. Let's say 20%. We sell shares to raise enough to cover a percentage.
And we get.

1. Discount on DVD.
2. Perhaps our names as contributors could be put somewhere on the CD. Easter Egg type thing or in the tittles at the end of each episode where we scroll by 50 to 100 names (quickly). 14 episodes 1400 names. Pick the first 1400 contributors or whatever.
3. Perhaps some characters names (bad or good characters) could be chosen the contributors list and used in an episode.
4. If we as shareholders and the Series was sold or went into reruns, and made money, we could/should receive dividends. (This is not the main reason I would contribute but if someone buys 3 share and someone else has 1 share then there needs to be something proportional going to the 3 shares contributor as opposed to the 1 share contributor.

Once we have a list of pledged contributors and it has to fairly big, we could then approach Joss. With 20% or whatever of the financing in place, the studio might see real interest coming from the FireFly community and that should really help Joss sell it.

However, 20 percent might be enough to get the interest level up at the studios, which own the rights. If they think there is enough interest but want to make their 80% investment bucks back first, we would prob have to agree to something like, all production costs and expenses on their part would be paid back first before any dividends are paid out.

This thing is too big for any one (FireFly) group to finance independently. Which means we would need to reach out beyond this site and contact other FireFly Fan sites around the would.

Easy to get started, we should start a pledge drive and start signing up people right away. Once that list shows promise we would approach Joss with the idea and see how he feels about it.

Our goal here is to find a FireFly voice that has clout and shows that we are serious. With a percentage of production covered, Joss may find it much easier to sell!

Just an idea.
Put me down for 2-5 Shares depending on final cost.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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