Discussion on Kaylee's character by Momaw

***WARNING! IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED, READ NO FURTHER!***

I don't think so. I think that Kaylee is very much like Inara in not having a Puritanical view of sex. She can have fun with it and not attach to much emotion to it. She accepts sex as an act in and of itself, not necessarily bound to the erroneous idea of monogamy being the natural way of things. Just two people who like each other giving each other pleasure in the moment, without worrying about what it means.

Seems like the healthiest possible concept of sex for her to have, IMO. No baggage attached, none of the guilt that today's society teaches us from birth must be associated with it. Like Inara said in HoG (paraphrased): "One of the benefits of not having a Puritanical view of sex is not being embarrassed about it after."

This attitude toward sex is, to me, perfectly in character for Kaylee. She is who she is, no excuses, and accepts others as they are, no excuses.

My $0.02...

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:47 AM

Sorry ~ Multi-post

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:36 AM

CAPTAINCDC

Quote:
Originally posted by Astriana:
***WARNING! IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED, READ NO FURTHER!***

I don't think so. I think that Kaylee is very much like Inara in not having a Puritanical view of sex. She can have fun with it and not attach to much emotion to it. She accepts sex as an act in and of itself, not necessarily bound to the erroneous idea of monogamy being the natural way of things. Just two people who like each other giving each other pleasure in the moment, without worrying about what it means.

Seems like the healthiest possible concept of sex for her to have, IMO. No baggage attached, none of the guilt that today's society teaches us from birth must be associated with it. Like Inara said in HoG (paraphrased): "One of the benefits of not having a Puritanical view of sex is not being embarrassed about it after."

This attitude toward sex is, to me, perfectly in character for Kaylee. She is who she is, no excuses, and accepts others as they are, no excuses.

My $0.02...

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

I agree with Astriana. My view of Kaylee is that she was a small town girl that was a mechanical genius. She had aspirations of getting off of her podunk world and see the 'verse. Like Astriana said "she did not have a puritanical view of sex". I also think she has grown up at least a little bit since she joined the crew of Serenity which could lead some to believe that having a quickie on the floor of the engine room was out of character. Don't forget that the act was in the past. Just because she did it then does not mean that she would do the same thing in the present, but I do not think that it would be "out of character" if she did.

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:49 AM

LJC

I disagree--I mean, from the very beginning, Kaylee was always written as having an easy, earthy, almost innocent sensuality and a zest for life. Heck, in the pilot script? She's described as "young, zaftig - as cheery as she is sexy." Which I thought Jewel nailed in her performance. Kaylee is someone who takes joy in life--and takes joy in everything she does. I agree with folks who've said that she doesn't have a puritanical attitude towards sex.

I mean--my God, have you seen the way this girl eats strawberries?

The way I always pictured Kaylee's background was the baby of a large, boistrous family, most likely from if not an ourtight rural background, then close to it. She probably hung out with her brothers and male cousins geeking out over the mechanincs of damn near everything (you know, just like the teenaged car geeks of today), and was probably sexually precoscious and drove her parents up a wall.

She's written and played perfectly by Jewel as boy-crazy, and perhaps confused that her relationship with Simon has gone so differently from what she perhaps expects, and that is a big part of its appeal. The falling for someone before delving into the physical side of intimacy.

I get the feeling that while Kaylee has slept with plenty of boys (even boys she believed she loved), she's a romantic at heart, and has rarely if ever actually fallen in love. Which is also a big part of her and Simon's dynamic, for me. It's new and different and scary and frustrating for *both* of them.

--
Some take the high road. Some take the low road.
And some just go screaming down the highway, dropping flaming bits of wreckage.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:51 AM

LJC ~ Exactly!!!

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:07 AM

BOOMERGOODHEART

I believe in the concept of "new soul/old soul". Take, for instance, my son...he's almost 15 and is not impressed with anything. He most assuredly has an "old soul". Kaylee, on the other hand, strikes both myself & my husband as having a "new soul"...seeing wonder in everything, taking joy in every new experience, and feeling outright terror in harmful situations. All of her emotions are right there for all to see, thanks to Jewel's phenomenal take on the character of Kaylee. She's not promiscuous, she's just loving life, in all of its forms.

BoomerGoodheart
"I love my Captain."

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:26 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I have to go along w/ is being said here too. Seems like the Puritan like approach of most people towards sex now is not shared by the crew of Serenity.

In "Jaynestown" (at least I am pretty sure it was "Jaynestown") Kaylee bids Inara goodbye on her way to a client with "Have great sex". She said it in front of Simon and seemed very sincere and dead pan when she said it. I truly get the feel that she holds sex as something that is natural and enjoyable and not necessarily taboo.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:33 AM

I'm recalling Heart of Gold where Kaylee wonders whether the boy whores service women. And Objects in Space where she tells River the story of the genically-enhanced 14-year old. I think nearly every episode has something. Nothing as bad as shagging in the engine room, but then that would kill the tension between her and Simon.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2004 11:52 AM

JAYNE'SJOJO

Kaylee is the heart of the Serenity...and what would love be without sensuality and passion? It's inherent to her, and because it's so natural it doesn't come off as "dirty" or "wrong"...

IMO, in some ways, Kaylee and Jayne are very alike...they both have a very strong physical presence on the ship. Jayne is strength, Kaylee is sex and sensuality...they both have a tendency to touch things and convey and understand through touch, scent and taste.

JoJo

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:53 AM

MOMAW

There's just an acre of you ain't there!

I'm prone to playing Devil's Advocate to anything just for the sake of being argumentative, and besides, you haven't convinced me yet.

Astriana:
>> like Inara in not having a Puritanical view of sex <<

I think it's rather significant that not two minutes after she delivers this comment, we find Inara weeping and heartbroken. Perhaps that was simply her Companion training kicking in and putting Mal at ease. She obviously has regrets about his actions though she acts blithe to his face.

LJC:
>> She's described as "young, zaftig - as cheery as she is sexy." <<

That's what prompted me to post this discussion. This little one-line description of her. Young is fine. Zaftig does apply, after I finally figured out what it meant (at first I waved a friend in Austria and he said closest was "saftig", "juicy"; young and juicy? She's a cut of veal?). Cheery, absolutely. But 'sexy' tripped my mental circuit breakers.

>> I mean--my God, have you seen the way this girl eats strawberries? <<

If you hadn't eaten a real, fresh strawberry in months or possibly years, you'd eat them like that too.

Don't even try and deny that the first in-season strawberry you find (cross-country freight doesn't count, they don't taste the same), you eat sloooowly.

Browncoat1:
>> I truly get the feel that she holds sex as something that is natural and enjoyable and not necessarily taboo. <<

Oh yes, I totally agree with you there. But just she's not got issues with people having sex doesn't mean that she herself participates. For example, if you had a homosexual friend, and truly accepted their orientation: you'd not have a problem wishing them well in their relations, but that doesn't mean that you'd participate. That seems to be Kaylee all over, non-judgemental and always wishing everybody would be happy.

Saint Jayne:
>> I'm recalling Heart of Gold where Kaylee wonders whether the boy whores service women. <<

We never get any sort of indication that she actually took advantage of the establishment's sevices... If casual sex was in-character for her, wouldn't they have shown or alluded to it?

Come to think of it... Mal we see, Inara (obviously), Wash and Zoe, Jayne ("That one is sort of horrific")... Book won't because he's a shepard or at least is putting up that facade, Simon's too traditional, and who'd want to bed River with her raving and oddness. Kaylee is the only one left who hasn't had a sexually charged scene in 'current time', just playful flirting.

Jayne'sJoJo:
>> Kaylee is the heart of the Serenity...and what would love be without sensuality and passion? <<

Serenity is a machine, a thing. You can't have sex with a ... uh, scratch that. Tactical withdrawl.

You could just as easily say that Early is similar to Kaylee because of his attraction to his gun. "I think this is very pretty... I like the weight of it." Anybody who's become fond of a running system or thing be it a factory or a ship or a car or a tool or weapon knows there's sensuality (sound, smell, touch, appearance, motion) and passion in the relationship, but it's not sexual. I help run an old sawmill in season, so I'm all over this concept of Serenity as a character and Kaylee's love for her. There's all kinds of love.

I'll agree that Jayne is somewhat similar in that he's always feeling and smelling and experiencing things. Though really what that says to me is that he's sort of simple-minded, like a child, always playing with stuff.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
There's just an acre of you ain't there!

Originally I felt like we were ganging up on you, but you seem to be holding your own.

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
LJC:
>> She's described as "young, zaftig - as cheery as she is sexy." <<

If zaftig is indeed based on Austrian/German/Swiss then it means juicy, lush and fancy. But isn't that spelled with an S? Perhaps it's borrowed. I hear people saying cheap, gaudy Xmas ornaments are kichy (from "kitschig"), which is borrowed German.

Quote:
Saint Jayne:
>> I'm recalling Heart of Gold where Kaylee wonders whether the boy whores service women. <<

We never get any sort of indication that she actually took advantage of the establishment's sevices... If casual sex was in-character for her, wouldn't they have shown or alluded to it?

You totally ignored my best points. I believe I stated that Kaylee would never do anything with another man because it would kill the tension between her and Simon.

Well, be happy, you see something in Kaylee that us others don't.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:47 AM

MOMAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
Originally I felt like we were ganging up on you, but you seem to be holding your own.

Not that this means you should press the assault! *adjusts grip on spear nervously*

Quote:

You totally ignored my best points. I believe I stated that Kaylee would never do anything with another man because it would kill the tension between her and Simon.

I'm sorry, I did indeed neglect this. My only excuse is that I was trying to respond to half a dozen people at once.

So you're saying that Kaylee may have, at one time, been somewhat promiscuous. But now that she's found Simon, she's finding herself feeling differently about the issues of love and romance? Am I understanding your point?

Or are you approaching this from a pure metastory angle: she can't do anything because it ruins a writing possibility.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 8:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
Quote:
So you're saying that Kaylee may have, at one time, been somewhat promiscuous.

That sounds good to me. She's still the same person, but she's acting differently because of new motivations. Love vs sex.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 8:22 AM

Originally posted by Momaw:
>There's just an acre of you ain't there!

I'm prone to playing Devil's Advocate to anything just for the sake of being argumentative, and besides, you haven't convinced me yet.

<

Astriana:
>> like Inara in not having a Puritanical view of sex <<

>I think it's rather significant that not two minutes after she delivers this comment, we find Inara weeping and heartbroken. Perhaps that was simply her Companion training kicking in and putting Mal at ease. She obviously has regrets about his actions though she acts blithe to his face.<

Okay, I have to concede the point that Inara does lie about being okay and try to put her shields up, only to end up crying her eyes out; however, *speculation alert* it could very well be that she's not upset about the sex so much as the connection/intimacy involved there - and jealous that Mal doesn't let his guard down with her. Easily a reaction to her assumptions about Mal's views on sex - i.e., only in relationship - and his willingness to let his guard down enough to sleep with Nandi, when that's the very thing Inara wants - intimacy as opposed to sex.

LJC:
>> She's described as "young, zaftig - as cheery as she is sexy." <<

>That's what prompted me to post this discussion. This little one-line description of her. Young is fine. Zaftig does apply, after I finally figured out what it meant (at first I waved a friend in Austria and he said closest was "saftig", "juicy"; young and juicy? She's a cut of veal?). Cheery, absolutely. But 'sexy' tripped my mental circuit breakers.<

Zaftig, as defined by Webster's:
Etymology: Yiddish zaftik juicy, succulent, from zaft juice, sap, from Middle High German saf, saft, from Old High German saf
of a woman : having a full rounded figure : pleasingly plump

I'm guessing we're looking at the full-rounded bit here, considering that Jewel had to gain weight for this role.

>> I mean--my God, have you seen the way this girl eats strawberries? <<

>If you hadn't eaten a real, fresh strawberry in months or possibly years, you'd eat them like that too.

Don't even try and deny that the first in-season strawberry you find (cross-country freight doesn't count, they don't taste the same), you eat sloooowly.<

This is actually a good argument for Kaylee being sexually free. Pleasure for its own sake, enjoying the moment. As with the strawberry.

Browncoat1:
>> I truly get the feel that she holds sex as something that is natural and enjoyable and not necessarily taboo. <<

>Oh yes, I totally agree with you there. But just she's not got issues with people having sex doesn't mean that she herself participates. For example, if you had a homosexual friend, and truly accepted their orientation: you'd not have a problem wishing them well in their relations, but that doesn't mean that you'd participate. That seems to be Kaylee all over, non-judgemental and always wishing everybody would be happy.<

You'd be a pretty big hypocrite if you were totally free and non-judgemental about others' sex lives and then turned around and denied yourself one, wouldn't you? If that particular person doesn't float your boat, you don't participate; however, if you are in congruence with the idea, then if it presents itself and you're interested, you don't get all mucked up in the guilt factors involved any more than you would expect those you support non-judgementally to do.

Saint Jayne:
>> I'm recalling Heart of Gold where Kaylee wonders whether the boy whores service women. <<

>We never get any sort of indication that she actually took advantage of the establishment's sevices... If casual sex was in-character for her, wouldn't they have shown or alluded to it?

Come to think of it... Mal we see, Inara (obviously), Wash and Zoe, Jayne ("That one is sort of horrific")... Book won't because he's a shepard or at least is putting up that facade, Simon's too traditional, and who'd want to bed River with her raving and oddness. Kaylee is the only one left who hasn't had a sexually charged scene in 'current time', just playful flirting.<

I have to disagree here. Did you see the look on Kaylee's face when the councilor came to visit Inara on the ship. She looked pretty sexually charged to me. At the very least, she was mentally exploring the idea of being in that situation herself, and not against it.

Jayne'sJoJo:
>> Kaylee is the heart of the Serenity...and what would love be without sensuality and passion? <<

>Serenity is a machine, a thing. You can't have sex with a ... uh, scratch that. Tactical withdrawl.

>You could just as easily say that Early is similar to Kaylee because of his attraction to his gun. "I think this is very pretty... I like the weight of it." Anybody who's become fond of a running system or thing be it a factory or a ship or a car or a tool or weapon knows there's sensuality (sound, smell, touch, appearance, motion) and passion in the relationship, but it's not sexual. I help run an old sawmill in season, so I'm all over this concept of Serenity as a character and Kaylee's love for her. There's all kinds of love.

I'll agree that Jayne is somewhat similar in that he's always feeling and smelling and experiencing things. Though really what that says to me is that he's sort of simple-minded, like a child, always playing with stuff.<

I think the key here is to recognize the difference between love, sensuality, and sexuality. Kaylee is very free with all three. Love she shares with everyone, and she expresses a bit of sensuality in relation to Serenity, in the way that she pets the ship and such, but to imply that she expresses sexuality in relation to Serenity is a confusion of sensuality and sexuality. You can have sensuality without sexuality, the way that Kaylee and Jayne do in they way they connect with things and people physically - a touch, a smell, experiencing the 'verse through their senses.

You can also have sexuality without sensuality, in the manner of sex without ANY kind of connection. (But why would anyone really want to?

)

In contrast, you cannot have love without sensuality, without some kind of physical connection to the thing you love. You hear, see, touch, taste, smell, or experience it in order to form that connection.

Kaylee loves everyone - it's who she is. She finds something to love about everyone, and expresses her sensuality unselfconsciously, with all the guile of child. In that process, she accepts sexuality as a natural extension of her love and sensuality.

Which is, IMO, exactly the way it should be for all of us and so oftentimes isn't.

(Going now before I start being jealous of Kaylee's freedom...

)

Edit: Sorry! It took me so long to respond to this that now I feel like I wrote a book and derailed the thread... oops!

~A~

...I'm still free,
You can't take the sky from me.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 8:29 AM

Saint Jayne, do you really see tension between Kaylee and Simon? To me there is affection, but nothing remotely resembling physical/sexual tension. I think that Kaylee has incredible potential for a kind of lazy-earth-mother-sexuality as we can see in lines like "have good sex" or when she's with Fester in the engine room (any possibility his name was Bester? thats what it sounded like to me) but a blazing tension of passion? I just can't see it.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 9:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
Saint Jayne, do you really see tension between Kaylee and Simon?

I'm not trying to state anything more than what is happening on the screen. By tension, I just mean the awkwardness we observe when they interact.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 12:19 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:

So you're saying that Kaylee may have, at one time, been somewhat promiscuous. But now that she's found Simon, she's finding herself feeling differently about the issues of love and romance? Am I understanding your point?

Or are you approaching this from a pure metastory angle: she can't do anything because it ruins a writing possibility.

Does that follow given Kaylee's obvious attraction to Tracey in The Message? Clearly there is something there between her and Simon, but I don't think its changed Kaylee is a person, not yet.

Given the social standing of companions, I'm not sure the idea of promiscuity can scan in the Firefly 'verse.

My take on the Kaylee character, as played by Jewel Staite is that she is (really should reply to one thread at a time - else I mess up), on the surface, both overtly sexual and yet innocent. There's no artifice there - I've just raised this point in a reply about Jubal Early, maybe its true here - Kaylee doesn't censor her thoughts.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:42 PM

LADYJAYNE

Quote:
We never get any sort of indication that she actually took advantage of the establishment's sevices... If casual sex was in-character for her, wouldn't they have shown or alluded to it?

I think this was a poorly written moment, myself. Her not partaking in the establishment's services is what *I* saw as being "out of character". It just didn't fit with her open attitude and non-puritanical ways of past episodes.

I absolutely LOVED the moment in "Jaynestown" when she is deeply offended by Simon's "I would never...not with Kaylee" comment. He meant it as a compliment; to mean that he respected her. But her interpretation of it was literal, very much in keeping with her take-everyone-at-face-value attitude. To her withholding sex just means you don't think the person is desirable. It doesn't have all of the "it's only good when you're in love" BS that too many of us desperately try to convince ourselves of when we aren't getting any.

One of my "If only..." wishes for more Firefly is that if only we could have gone further to an episode in which Kaylee gets sick of waiting around for Simon and gets herself some. The writer's avoided that in "Heart of Gold" likely because there was already so much going on.

I think if the intention was to have Kaylee as an unrealistic good girl who always waits and knows how sad casual sex is, they woulda put Marti Noxon on the writing staff. Thank the gods they didn't.

--Kala

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 6:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
Saint Jayne, do you really see tension between Kaylee and Simon?

I'm not trying to state anything more than what is happening on the screen. By tension, I just mean the awkwardness we observe when they interact.

Heh. I see 'tension' and think physical/sexual, you think awkwardness. Guess that shows where my mind is.

Just to follow through with my lazy-earth-mother-sexuality Kaylee, I think the engine room scene was true to character. She is a very physical person, kissing Mal, hugging everyone in sight, falling asleep ontop of Simon. She likes contact be it friendly or more than that, she enjoys tastes-strawberries anyone?, and the music from the ball on Persephone. Plainly put, Kaylee is a sensualist. She likes to feel, and taste, and hear things that make her feel good in any number of ways. In my mind, for her not to enjoy and want to have sex would be out of character just as it would be strange if there was a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:31 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
In my mind, for her not to enjoy and want to have sex would be out of character just as it would be strange if there was a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

Nur, I just had to make mention of how stunningly appropriate your sig is for this thread. (Mine? Not so much...)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, January 22, 2004 7:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
In my mind, for her not to enjoy and want to have sex would be out of character just as it would be strange if there was a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

Nur, I just had to make mention of how stunningly appropriate your sig is for this thread. (Mine? Not so much...)

Thanks. Flattery will get you some places.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

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Friday, January 23, 2004 1:41 AM

MOMAW

Nur:
>> She is a very physical person, kissing Mal, hugging everyone in sight, falling asleep ontop of Simon. <<

Point of interest, they were both drunk when this happened.

>> and the music from the ball on Persephone <<

The way I read that whole bit was that Kaylee likes nice things. In fact she says as much herself:

"Ooooh, look at all the pretties!"

If she grew up as a 'prairie harpy', without a lot of glamor or luxury, then it's only natural that she's seen pictures of rich or noble women, the parties, the gowns (the food!) and want to participate. And I get the feeling that her femininity onboard the ship is somewhat repressed. Nobody tells her she's cute or has a romance with her. The only person she can really spend any girl-time with is Inara. She's always the grease-stained person wandering around fixing stuff. Kinda like she's taken for granted as a member of the crew, not seen as a young lady. Makes her a little unsecure on that score. When she gets a chance to be pretty and popular, she's gonna take it. Being able to go to the ball is the fulfilment of a sort of 'princess dream' Her dress, and the music, is her way of remembering all the things that she puts away for her role as ship's mechanic.

Yes, and there's sensualism in it too. When she's at the party talking about her dress, she says "I saw the ruffles and just couldn't help myself" and has to pet the ruffles. Plus I bet the whole thing makes a nice wooshy rustling sound, and you can see it swaying all over as she walks. She'd be fond of it for these reasons too, not simply memory.

>> a bowl of strawberries infront of her and she didn't take one. <<

Only one? That would be out of character.

A lot of you seem to be trying the 'she's non-puritanical about sex because she's a sensualist' tactic, and you're coming up with all kinds of good evidence that she's a sensualist. I'm not arguing against that; she is. Likes to experience everything to the full. What I'm arguing is that this doesn't make her promiscuous. The word 'sensualist' can mean that the person simply likes to feel/hear/taste/smell things, wants to, will take any oppourtunity to do so. For example, somebody that likes to wear silk a lot, for no other reason than the softness of it against their skin; they like the sense of it. There are other definitions, including one with a sexual component.

Seems to me that we need to all agree on one definition of the word.

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Friday, January 23, 2004 1:58 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Momaw:
]I get the feeling that her femininity onboard the ship is somewhat repressed. Nobody tells her she's cute or has a romance with her.

Hmmm... So, being dressed in ruffles, not a mechanic, even for a little bit, all make her more feminine? I am not sure I get this. (Which if you knew me, ain't that unusual.)

Maybe I am strange, but Kaylee is her sexiest when she is a mechanic, covered in grease, and useful to Serenity. Her voice, those bumps under her top, the curve of her hips, (I will stop now, before the wife kills me) that what makes her feminine, which I understand as bearing the secondary sexual characteristics of a female.

But then, I never could abide useless people.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Friday, January 23, 2004 3:44 AM