What are your *least* favorite Firefly moments? by Okkay

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What are your *least* favorite Firefly moments?

POSTED BY: OKKAY
UPDATED: Saturday, February 14, 2004 06:39
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VIEWED: 22467
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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:17 AM

This is sort of a weird question, I know, but I was wondering if you guys had any least favorite moments. Although this show is as close to perfect as there ever was, there are still some moments that bug me every time I watch it.

One reason that The Message has always bugged me was that the whole episode could have been resolved peacefully if Mal just *explained* to Tracey that their plan wasn't to turn him over to the cop. He didn't have to keep the plan secret, but he did, there was a big misunderstanding, and bad things happened because of it, and Tracey died. Yes, the episode needed Tracy to die, but they way it happened just bugs me every time.

Another time Mal caused an understanding by not explaining himself was in Bushwhacked, when they're caught by the Alliance and he asks Simon to get River, Simon gets mad because he thinks Mal's selling them out. Why couldn't have Mal just said "Simon, get your sister, we're going to hide you guys."?

Just little things that bug me. So I wondered if other people had similar moments that they either didn't like or didn't get.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:22 AM

GHOULMAN

When some jerk wrote a crappy pseudo intellectual tirade accusing my fav show of having icky and evil subtext. Oh wait... you mean on the show.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:30 AM

SEVENPERCENT

I see your point but I personally would have to disagree- While it would be easy for Mal to just 'stop and explain,' he shouldnt have to- He gives the orders and expects the others to do what he says, not have a debate- People in charge rely on their underlings to trust them (think of other shows you have seen- do those Captains/whatever stop to always explain? I just finished B5 s4, and Sheridan almost never reveals his hand like that) -
As for a least fav. moment, it would to me be the 'magic door' blooper in Trash - When Mal and Saff escape through a door, it has a different handle when the feds try to go through that same door- Most bloopers pass me by unnoticed, but that one eats at me for some reason-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:39 AM

ENDERSPAWN

Mal isn't that kind of guy. He's too internalized. If Tim Minear writes him that way then it's one of his substantial character flaws...and one of his coolest traits. Does batman explain himself? Heeeeellll no!

Plus that way we have no idea what's going to happen.

My least favorite moments...

1) The weirdly edited Inara bathing scene in the final version of the pilot...what happened guys? Big technical weirdness. That was more of a glitch then bad Firefly though.

2) There are the eps of the show that are good instead of great...Safe, Heart of Gold, Bushwacked, Message, Train Job. All of these have great scenes but the ratio to kind of "meh" scenes is higher. These are scenes like Jayne tricking Simon into a spacesuit to board the derelict...it's very necessary, and it does its job, but I don't enjoy it nearly as much as, say the entirety of the pilot. Or Our Mrs. Reynolds, or especially Out of Gas, which I finally watched all the way through. That opening scene BLOWS MY FREAKING MIND!!

Anyways, the only other thing I can think of is that when Serenity makes her "full burn" it doesn't look as flashy and cool as we've come to expect from sci-fi. I like the smoke and glowing beams of light coming from her behind but something about the way she leaves lacks that little something. I do firmly believe that was the point. She's not entering Hyperspace. She's not going warp. She just made a huge explosion and she's travelling very fast.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:55 AM

SHINY

Regarding the Message, if you read the script, they originally had Mal/Book about to try to explain things to Tracey when he interrupts them and threatens them with the gun. It makes Mal come off as a little less unreasonable, but I suspect it reduced the tension because it lets the viewer in on the fact that they weren't planning to hand Tracey over to the Feds.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 6:57 AM

HERO

My least favorite moment comes at the end of 'Objects in Space' when I go to view the next episode...only there is no next episode.

Also I've never been particulary happy with the cheesy landspeeder and laser gun in 'Heart of Gold'. I think they could have done better in the props department with those two items.

I would have given him a sleeker weapon and instead of a landspeeder, some kind of vtol/personal helicopter thingy (there's plenty of 'concept' personal flyers on the net). Then he's runnin, gets in, start it up, takes off, looks down and there's Mal who shoots right through the fuel tank making it explode. Yup, it could have been better.

And what was that thing River was eating in 'The Message'. Looked like a combination of a mace and cotten candy. They just did it to work in the line about it being "problematic". Being so smart it could have been just as funny to show her having trouble with something simple like chopstiks, or eating peas with a fork, or peanut butter, or maybe getting a suger high (that would have been funny).

H

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:00 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

My least favorite moment.....when an episode ends, and when Fox cancelled it.

Oh you meant in the show itself....oh.

My least favorite moment would have to be in Jaynestown when they keep cutting to the characters and their comments when the mudder is singing the Hero of Canton. I kept missing parts and it got just a bit irritating. I know it was necessary for the plot and scene, just a pet peeve like talking in the movie theatre. Special Hell and all that.

As to Mal explaining why he does things or letting everyone in on his plans, that is the problem w/ command. The second you start informing everyone what you are doing, then everyone will put in their two cents, questions, and suggestions. You have a debate on your hands then and at times like in "The Message", they simply did not have time to talk things over. I guess it boils down to he is the captain and he always does what is best for everyone concerned.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:00 AM

SAFFY

I loved the thing River was eating in "The Message"!

Anyway, Mal losing his ear. 'Nuff said. It was like "Reservoir Dogs" all over again.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:02 AM

OKKAY

Quote:
Originally posted by Enderspawn:
Mal isn't that kind of guy. He's too internalized. If Tim Minear writes him that way then it's one of his substantial character flaws...and one of his coolest traits. Does batman explain himself? Heeeeellll no!

I agree that Mal was probably written with that particular character trait, and I can understand him not explaining his actions in Bushwhacked, but in The Message, Tracey has a gun pointed at Wash and Kaylee. I'm thinking those are extreme circumstances where the story just feels stupid by not having Mal explain himself. One line: "Tracey, we're not going to turn you in", would have been enough to take care of the situation and not get his crew killed.

Batman doesn't explain himself, but I'm sure if one of his friends had another of his friends at gunpoint, he would explain himself so no one would die.

But that's just my opinion.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:06 AM

OKKAY

Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
And what was that thing River was eating in 'The Message'. Looked like a combination of a mace and cotten candy. They just did it to work in the line about it being "problematic". Being so smart it could have been just as funny to show her having trouble with something simple like chopstiks, or eating peas with a fork, or peanut butter, or maybe getting a suger high (that would have been funny).

I think the humor lies in the fact that we as an audience can't really figure out how to eat that thing (ice planet I think they called it) either. It's like in Demolition Man with the 3 shells.

Plus in this future, I'm sure everyone knows how to eat with chopsticks. River is crazy, but she wouldn't forget how to do that.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:11 AM

BARNEYT

Quote:
Originally posted by Okkay:
[B
I agree that Mal was probably written with that particular character trait, and I can understand him not explaining his actions in Bushwhacked, but in The Message, Tracey has a gun pointed at Wash and Kaylee. I'm thinking those are extreme circumstances where the story just feels stupid by not having Mal explain himself. One line: "Tracey, we're not going to turn you in", would have been enough to take care of the situation and not get his crew killed.

Batman doesn't explain himself, but I'm sure if one of his friends had another of his friends at gunpoint, he would explain himself so no one would die.

But that's just my opinion.

This is the way I thought about it when I saw the episode first, but on later viewings I realised that it does work as is - one thing that is clear about Mal is that if you threaten his crew, he doesn't give an inch - and so once Tracey shot Wash that was it, Mal's sole concern was stopping Tracey. Yeah, it would have been better for Tracey if Mal wasn't so obsessed with the safety of his crew - but he is. Tracey was trying to use that to his advantage and it backfired.

Anyway, back to the point - my least favourite moment is the end of the Heart of Gold where Nandi is shot. I know there had to be a reason why she wasn't around to finish her conversation with Mal about Inara's feelings and all that - but this was pure adventure serial cliche, and it just annoys me!

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:13 AM

ARIYA

Regarding The Meassage, and Mal not explaining things to Tracey: I had considered this as well, and watched the episode again to try and figure out what was going on there. In truth, Book has the idea for a plan, and doesn't even have a chance to tell Mal when Tracey freaks out. Book actually tries to talk with Tracey, but he screams at him and wigs.
They attempted to communicate, but in a high stress situation like that, and with Tracey unwilling to listen I have absolutely no problem seeing that as realistic.

Ariya

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:18 AM

HKCAVALIER

About Mal not explaining things: have you ever been really, really mad? Not a time when you much feel like explaining things is it?

Couple moments come to mind: the scene in Trash where Saffron is introduced to the crew kinda ruins the whole episode for me. There is no way in hell that Mal would collude with Crazy Girl after she sent his crew to almost certain death in OMR. He can forgive Patience shooting him but no grief visitted upon his crew is ever forgotten (Jayne is a member of his crew, so he gets a pass as long as Mal can see a soul swimming around in that murk). In OMR Saffron comes across as something of a genius, but she would have to be so, so very stupid to think that Mal would go in with her on that deal. Of course, when I first saw the episode I didn't know that they were playing her so I was all, "WTF? Oh this is LAME!" Saffron was genuinely dagerous in OMR, but here she comes off like a gorram "wacky character." "That Saffron...what will she do next?"

And moment #2 in an otherwise excellent episode is Nandi getting shot in Heart of Gold. It's the one time that Firefly dips unselfconciously into the vast wasteland of adventure series cliches and kills off the girl after our hero has sex with her (back in the day there was no such thing as a story arc, so if Kirk got something going with an alien girl we had to wrap things up within the hour--no loose ends).

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:28 AM

LOADANDMAKEREADY

Quote:
Originally posted by Okkay:
Another time Mal caused an understanding by not explaining himself was in Bushwhacked, when they're caught by the Alliance and he asks Simon to get River, Simon gets mad because he thinks Mal's selling them out. Why couldn't have Mal just said "Simon, get your sister, we're going to hide you guys."?

Just little things that bug me. So I wondered if other people had similar moments that they either didn't like or didn't get.

I agree, in real life, it would be all too easy to lose control of the situation. If I were in his place, I would make a quick "quiet" gesture, and say, "I've got a plan."

But this is fiction, and would diminish the drama ... especially just before a commercial.

ABOVE ALL ELSE, KYFHO!

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:39 AM

STATIC

Okay, I can offer my .02 on this. . .

I'm not currently the commander of my company, but I've been in leadership positions, and I've done so in combat, so I can say that when bombs are landing on and around you, and you're the boss, you don't have time to explain your plan. You just tell folks what to do. Everyone else on the crew knew they could trust Mal, and for goodness sake, Tracey SHOULD have known he could, because he was IN combat with Mal. Tracey panicked because he knew the whole time that he was wrong.

"The Message" tears my guts out every time I see it, because I've seen too many kids fade out in the same manner that Tracey did. . .lying there knowing that they're on the way out. . .expressing their regrets. . .you never get used to that. I feel sorry for any man or woman that COULD get used to that.

Just my thoughts.

Oh yeah. . .and I get so tired of seeing Simon grab River by the wrists. I mean, when she has a weapon, or some other means of hurting herself. . .that's one thing. But in "Shindig" when River entered, right before her 'Badger speech'. . .Simon tries to usher her quietly away, and when she resists, he grabs her wrists. That drives me NUTS!

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:50 AM

MANIACNUMBERONE

My least favorite Firefly moment was not an actual moment on an episode, but rather a sense I got while watching the commentaries. Alan Tudyk was talking, I believe during the WS one, about when they were shooting HOG and how when the cast were all walking in a line, they were all very very sad because they knew it was the last show they were gonna do.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 12:33 PM

FIRELILY

Quote:
Originally posted by Enderspawn:
1) The weirdly edited Inara bathing scene in the final version of the pilot...what happened guys? Big technical weirdness. That was more of a glitch then bad Firefly though.

When I first saw this, I also thought it was odd, but I figured it was done on purpose. The guy says later "you must play with time so that the pleasure passes quickly", or something along those lines. My first interpretation (this was before I had had a chance to watch further episodes) was that Inara really was playing with time, and the "weird editing" was evidence of it (kinda like a "glitch in the matrix" or something). After watching nearly the whole series now, I don't think Inara is either physically or morally capable of really doing that. I also don't like to think that it was merely editing problems as that would be waaaay too obvious during the editing process. So as long as it really isn't just an editing mistake, I think it has something to do with perception/altering of time.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 1:03 PM

SLAYER730

My least favorite Firefly moment would have to be Jubel Early threatening to rape Kaylee. I think it was not only offensive, but completely unnecessary.

Why would a bounty hunter even suggest such a thing? If it is so that the audience knows that he is evil and means business, I think there could have been a better way to do it.

As it stood, it just came across as excessively violent and weird.

Oh yeah, and when Mal sleeps with Nandi: only because I love Mal and he made Inara cry...meanie!

***Never judge a book by its movie***

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Friday, January 30, 2004 7:33 PM

FORTUNATUS

My absolute least favorite bit occurs in Our Mrs. Reynolds. Saffron has married Mal and is aboard Serenity doing her innocent act. Then, the ship passes the guys who fry crews and steal their ships. These guys talk about whether or not Serenity's worth taking, and decide to steal her. Then, later on, it turns out that Saffron was working with them?! Why the heck would they bicker over stealing Serenity if Saffron had already boarded her with the purpose of guiding her into the ship-frying net? That's bugged me ever since the first time it was aired.

_______________
"Yep. That's a cow fetus."

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Friday, January 30, 2004 8:18 PM

TALONPEST

My least favorite moment was in Heart of Gold, but not when Nandi gets shot- it's when Mal chases down the hovercraft thingie on a horse. The least they could have done was to have the hovercraft be damaged and spewing smoke as an excuse for a horse that can do what, 30mph? catching up to it. Also the effect was a little weak when Burgis shot at Mal on the horse before running out of batteries.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 9:01 PM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
Originally posted by Fortunatus:
My absolute least favorite bit occurs in Our Mrs. Reynolds. Saffron has married Mal and is aboard Serenity doing her innocent act. Then, the ship passes the guys who fry crews and steal their ships. These guys talk about whether or not Serenity's worth taking, and decide to steal her. Then, later on, it turns out that Saffron was working with them?! Why the heck would they bicker over stealing Serenity if Saffron had already boarded her with the purpose of guiding her into the ship-frying net? That's bugged me ever since the first time it was aired.

Well Saffron would just board the first ship she came across and guide it to the pirates she's loosely associated with. Once it passes through the net, however, they still have to go through all the work of rewiring the ship, throwing out corpses, selling/using it, etc., which they wouldn't be willing to do for your average ultra-crappy starship.

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Friday, January 30, 2004 9:57 PM

NOOCYTE

One pet peeve moment:
In "Bushwacked," when Mal and Zoe are going into the derelict for the first time, Mal says, "entering adjoining airlock." Can't say as I can rightly picture Mal saying "adjoining" as a rule. Sounds like residual Sigh Figh speak (don't flame me; I'm a die-hard SF [no, not 'die, hard SF'] fan), as writers nestled into the 'verse.

Not a big bug, but it does itch some every time I see it.

Keep flyin'

Department of Redundancy Department

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 12:33 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by Okkay:
One reason that The Message has always bugged me was that the whole episode could have been resolved peacefully if Mal just *explained* to Tracey that their plan wasn't to turn him over to the cop. He didn't have to keep the plan secret, but he did, there was a big misunderstanding, and bad things happened because of it, and Tracey died. Yes, the episode needed Tracy to die, but they way it happened just bugs me every time.

While these are good hits, but I have to speak in Mal's defense. A firefight is not the time or place for a civilized debate. You either trust your commanding officer or you don't.

The Captain may know things and reasons why your plan won't work, or is too risky, and simply is not at liberty to say at that moment, or you got rogue federal lawmen blowing holes in your ship. Either way, Captains are not in the habit, nor can they get in the habit of, explaining each and every order they give.

Without a hierarchal command structures, a military unit cannot function as a team, but becomes more a mob, easy to pick off and kill.

What got Tracy killed was his lack of trust in Mal, (and possibly Book). Granted, Mal has to think of the ship and his crew first, and Tracy would naturally be a secondary consideration. But still, as Captain, it is the Captain's call. And Captains cannot have that kind of insubordination especially with federal agents shooting at them.

In a way, Tracy was tested, and failed miserably. Military life does not require unquestioned obeidence, but it does require respect and trust in one's commanding officer, and the maturity to recognize when is, and is not, a good time to question the Captain's authority, or his tactics.

Tracy killed himself. Mal just held the bullet for a while.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 12:51 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by slayer730:
My least favorite Firefly moment would have to be Jubel Early threatening to rape Kaylee. I think it was not only offensive, but completely unnecessary.

Would agree here. That is my least favorite. And one of the reasons why I think Jubal is space trash, stuck on the bottom of the next ship that passed by.

Now, as far as drama goes, it does work. And remember, Jubal is a bit of a sick bastard to begin with, but also he needs her to be quiet and still. Scaring her nearly to death is an effective tactic at ensuring her cooperation.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 1:17 AM

RONALDRAYGUN

The only thing that bugs me is the use of present day weapons. 500 years in the future and they still use .45's? I wouldn't think that it would have cost too much to fancify the weapons like they did with Mals.

Yep. That went well.

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 5:24 AM

STATIC

My theory on the firearms situation is this. . .

You notice the Federal Marshals, the Alliance troops, those guys, they carry the cool, futuristic-type guns. . .it's mostly on the frontier worlds that you see the 'older' weapons. . .the ones from OUR era.

The way I see it is. . .a good old slug-thrower will never be obsolete. It's suggested in the show that laser weapons, while powerful, are impractical on the frontier because of the power requirements ('check battery'). Slug throwers are cheap, easy to repair, and it's easy to make your own ammo as well. It might not cost that much to 'fancify' the weapons, but I imagine the question they asked was, "why pay for it at all, when the differences wouldn't be signifigant?"

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 7:24 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
I have to speak in Mal's defense. A firefight is not the time or place for a civilized debate. You either trust your commanding officer or you don't.

I agree Mal could have handled this better, but I don't dislike the scene. I really liked the parallel with Bushwhacked where Simon confronts Mal about leaving his sister in the open. Even Jayne and Book chime in. Different people, different choices.

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 7:41 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by RonaldRaygun:
The only thing that bugs me is the use of present day weapons. 500 years in the future and they still use .45's? I wouldn't think that it would have cost too much to fancify the weapons like they did with Mals.

Remember the Ariel scene, when the Blue Hands were in pursuit, and they couldn't open the door 'cause all they had was that damned futuristic gun?

High-tech weapons do exist; but a piece of metal in your torso'll kill you just as much.

I liked the Inara bathing scene alright; though at first I thought it was a glitch with my DVD player.

Anyway, my least favorite part? Uh - when Book interupts Simon and Kaylee in OiS. What a bastard.

Also, in Heart of Gold. The whole epsiode.

One thing about Joss, he seems to greatly overestimate the speed of horses; or perhaps, underestimate the speed of everything else. There was another scene of his (besides the hovercraft one) where the animel was too damn quic. In BtVS, near the end of season 5, a group of horses caught up with an RV, going full speed down an empty road. He tried to make it seem beleiveable, by throwing in an "I can't beleive how slow this RV is" comment...but it was doing atleast 55.

I liked that laser gun, though.
-Steve

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 7:41 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by RonaldRaygun:
The only thing that bugs me is the use of present day weapons. 500 years in the future and they still use .45's? I wouldn't think that it would have cost too much to fancify the weapons like they did with Mals.

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:21 AM

KAYTHRYN

Quote:
Originally posted by Okkay:
One reason that The Message has always bugged me was that the whole episode could have been resolved peacefully if Mal just *explained* to Tracey that their plan wasn't to turn him over to the cop. He didn't have to keep the plan secret, but he did, there was a big misunderstanding, and bad things happened because of it, and Tracey died. Yes, the episode needed Tracy to die, but they way it happened just bugs me every time.

The Message has to be my favorite episode of all and here’s why this scene worked for me.

When Tracey first came in and Book and Mal were talking, they didn’t have the plan all talked out to every last detail. Both being men with obvious leadership training and military knowledge they didn’t have to spell out exactly what they were thinking, the other man just caught on. When Tracey turned a gun on our crew Book stepped forward and tried to explain the plan, but the gun was quickly turned on him and he was told to “shut it”. Now it doesn’t matter what anyone might have said. Tracey wouldn’t believe it. It would of all been an excuse, a lie, to get Kaylee back before he was handed over to the feds and killed for those fancy organs he was carrying.

Since Tracey was willing to lie and put Serenity and her crew in danger, it seems fitting that he would believe them capable of doing the same to him.

-------------------------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:46 AM

AMANDA4U

Ok, you guys, did any of you watch those epidodes with the commentary on? With the pilot episode, Inara bathing was artistic. That's just Joss doing his directing thing, to not let the camera work be boring, steady shots like almost every generic cookie cutter tv show. He wanted to stand out. Like in another Joss directed episode, OiS, when River is describing Early to Early, we see the fragements of his maddness, where he is fine one minute, then laughing insane, then back to noraml. He also did that kind of work with Inara in the pilot, when she had "finished up" with that young Alliance guy on Persephone, and they were talking about Shinon. I think he was trying to express their inner feelings about what was being said.
And with the OMR and Trash line. Yes, Saffron did try to kill them, and Malcom let her go. It is a lot like Patience on Whitefall. He went back to her after she shot him, because he needed the money. Just like he teamed up with Saffron again, this time with a plan if and when she betrayed him, so he wouldn't have to pull any more "wabbley-headed doll capers". He does it for the money, but he always has a backup plan waiting.
And with The Message, Book and Mal were talking with their eyes. They were telling each other without words what the plan was going to be, but Tracey didn't get it. Heck, I think even Jayne got a little of the plan, so that doesn't say much of Tracey. He even called them saps. Now the first bullet that they shot him with, that could have mabey been fixed, but after the name callin' and taking Kallie hostage, I think Mal had had enough.
With the OiS Kallie rape thing, it was Early's intimidation of Kallie, so that she wouldn't get in his way. He dealed with people differently on the ship. With Simon, he used logic, with Mal and Book, he just beat the crap out of them, and with Kallie, he just scared the crap out of her.
On the Heart of Gold front, I got nothin. I would think that a hovering car would be faster than a horse, but hey.
Thank you for letting me rant.

To Jayne! The box dropping man ape gone wrong thing!

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:50 AM

GEORDIESTEVE2003

The bit where we dont get all the answers is my least favourite moment!!!! I want to know who Book really is! I want to know what they had planned for River! Was she going to be a spy or what???? I need answers people!

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 10:34 AM

SLAYER730

Amanda4U, I understand where you are coming from. I understand that Early was trying to intimidate Kaylee and keep her quiet. It just seems like a completely over the top and unnecessary way to do it. He had a gun, it would have been enough to scare the go se out of Kaylee(especially since we've seen how "adept" she is at gunplay).

And, it's Kaylee...not Kallie.

***Never judge a book by its movie***

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 11:53 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by slayer730:
Amanda4U, I understand where you are coming from. I understand that Early was trying to intimidate Kaylee and keep her quiet. It just seems like a completely over the top and unnecessary way to do it. He had a gun, it would have been enough to scare the go se out of Kaylee(especially since we've seen how "adept" she is at gunplay).

It was completely over the top and unnessecary. That's Early for ya.
-Steve

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 2:58 PM

ARIYA

Well, I have had a few discussions with people regarding Jubal's method of intimidating Kaylee, and I maintain that moment was one of the most powerful in the series. Jewel Staite brought a level of emotional vulnerability and honesty to that moment rarely seen in television or cinema.
As for an explanation, Jubal handled each person on the ship differently (as was mentioned above and in the commentary). Kaylee's character was based in her sensuality, her innocence, and her passion. Jubal, being the dark, horrid man he is, cut right to the heart of Kaylee, and threatened to attack the center of her being. The fact that people become upset about that moment in the show indicates to me that it did its job.

Ariya

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 3:38 PM

NIGHTTRAIN

That definitely bothered me a little bit. However, what i really didn't like about the episode is how they bring Tracy home and all have a sad moment after he dies. Considering how Tracy shot the pilot, took the mechanic hostage, and tried to hijack serenity, which put the whole crew in danger, I definitely would have turned him over to the cops.

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 6:39 PM

BOURNE

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
As to Mal explaining why he does things or letting everyone in on his plans, that is the problem w/ command. The second you start informing everyone what you are doing, then everyone will put in their two cents, questions, and suggestions. You have a debate on your hands then and at times like in "The Message", they simply did not have time to talk things over. I guess it boils down to he is the captain and he always does what is best for everyone concerned.

Actually, I don't see that that's the case:

1) Part of good leadership/management is understanding those under you, their strengths AND limitations, and addressing same. From the war, and from Tracey's own account of his less-than-wise business decisions, Mal knows Tracey tends to be inept and short-sighted. A short sentence or two would have gone a long way towards forestalling Tracey's ape-shit session. In the war scene in the pilot, during an ACTUAL firefight, Mal was not averse to "taking a breath" in order to buck up his troops with a little explanation.

2) During the final scene(s) in "The Message", Tracey actually has a gun trained on them, actually SHOOTS Wash. At this point, unless he is stubborn to the point of unredeemable stupidity - NOT a solid leadership trait - he should realize that whether Tracey will become insubordinate due to a little info is moot. He's way past insubordinate and working on mutiny. At numerous points, he could see Tracey's slide into desperate lunacy, and seen that "what's best for the crew" is to defuse the situation.

Yeah, as y'all might be able to tell, this plot point bothered me plenty, too. I just sort of coast by it and tie into the emotional content of the episode, though.

WHOA, only just realized how far this thread had gone past this point! Sorry, everybody...

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 7:06 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
he should realize that whether Tracey will become insubordinate due to a little info is moot. He's way past insubordinate and working on mutiny. At numerous points, he could see Tracey's slide into desperate lunacy, and seen that "what's best for the crew" is to defuse the situation.

I always thought you shot mutineers.

My least favorite scene is when Nandi gets shot in HoG. Inara had a knife at his throat, why didn't she tell him to drop the gun and then give up the baby?

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 8:23 PM

BOURNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Veteran:

I always thought you shot mutineers.

You shoot DESERTERS. Usually HANG mutineers :)

Anyways, something else that really bothers me. It's more of a technical/stylistic thing than a plot point. It happens periodically throughout the series, but one example stands out in my mind:

In War Stories, when the crew is mounting a rescue of the Captain, Gina/Zoe breaks cover, does a grade-school gym-class somersault, then leisurely double-draws and guns down a henchman WHO'S HAD A BEAD ON HER THE WHOLE TIME. ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

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Saturday, January 31, 2004 9:49 PM

BOURNE

Another thing about "The Message":

What the @&!%# was Dr. Tam doing during the death scene? He's a TRAUMA surgeon, for Pete's sake, and he's just sitting there, doing nothing. Mal even tells Tracey his chest wound "can be seen to." I realize they have to usher the crooked cops off the boat first, but I expected him - and everyone else - to spring into action afterwards.

But they don't.

For those who believe his wounds were irretrievably mortal, why did he take so LONG to die? Simon or anyone else could've made nearly half a dozen trips to the infirmary in the time it took him to bleed out. From two left anterior chest wounds. Between the 2nd and 6th ribs. This is perilously close to the middle mediastinum, folks. As in heart/aorta/etc.

Granted, his innards ain't his innards: maybe the replacements have a different configuration. But in an earlier scene, Dr. Tam auscultates his chest in roughly the right place to double check the funny beat he gets from the pulse ox on Tracey's finger. So the configuration is basically the same.

Okay, let just assume the bullet(s) MISSED his heart, or just grazed it, or hit it and somehow plugged its own hole (hmmmm....). Maybe he's got a combination pneumo-/hemo-thorax. No matter how you slice it (pun intended), there's clearly enough time to TRY something. Chest tube, needle decompression...hell, like I mentioned above Dr. Tam is a trauma surgeon. He would've had the big guys haulin' Tracey's ass down to the infirmary, started IV fluids, even cracked his chest and started diggin'...not squat down and hold pressure on the wound for 5 seconds AND THEN STOP.

I anticipate the argument that running time constraints may have precluded an "ER-type" scene. I don't buy it, though. There's plenty of corners left to cut in this episode, to justify adding a heroic, futile life-saving scene that satisfies both dramatic and realistic demands. Joss even mentions several times (in other commentaries and interviews) that he wanted to give the series a bit of a gritty, documentary feel.

Oh, well.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:49 AM

SHSSAY

My least favorite moment in Firefly.....I had to sit and think on this for a while.^^ I know that many Jayne fans are going to hate me for this, but my least favorite moment on the show is when Mal didn't let him get sucked out of the ship in 'Ariel'. Gorram traitor. I don't know how he can say Simon and River don't belong on Serenity and continue to be so hard on them after that.

"Two by two, hands of blue." -River Tam

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 1:20 AM

11THHOUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve580:Also, in Heart of Gold. The whole epsiode.

Ditto.

And I loves Firefly with a POWERFUL strong love.

Heart of Gold was "imitation Firefly" for me. I hate to say it, but yeah... that one just struck me wrong.

Just a few reasons:

- Bad guy was one dimensional bad. No layers, nuthin'. Just Mr. Evil Bully Guy. Generic black hat meanie designed so that we don't feel bad when he gets shot. *Yawn* and... yuck.

- After all the times that Mal has risked his life and gone through hell to keep his crew safe and keep flying... he risks EVERYTHING on a feud that doesn't concern him?! So he gets fully involved just because Nandi is hot and independent (like him) and Inara's friend? Sheesh... sorry, I don't buy it. Life is too hard in the black, you take better care of you and yours. Plus, just because they put down one skirmish doesn't mean something just as bad won't happen after they break orbit.

- The 'Western talk' in this episode was heavy and right outta a B movie Western. Much more exaggerated and unrealistic compared to other Firefly episodes.

- Biggest, clunkiest, plot arc device was dropped, with a thud, between Zoe and Wash. All of a sudden, she wants to have a baby?! Wash agues the point of reason that their lives are too dangerous to bring a baby into their world. Zoe disagrees. Of course this whole conversation is happening while they're preparing for a big, messy gun battle... Uh, can you say dangerous, hello? If this was a hint of where they were going to go with Zoe and Wash, I'm glad it got interrupted.

- The writing was like it came from someone who heard about Firefly second hand, and took a try at it. The crew was acting like loose, one dimensional sketches of themselves. Jayne was just a running joke about getting laid and being a tough guy. Book kept being accompanied by a couple of whore groupies, to whom he offered cliche platitudes. Simon did doctor duties for the oft seen woman having a baby in hard circumstances stuff... and, River watched. Kaylee had a few interesting lines, but not much else. She did save Wash from being shot, and landed on top of him in the process... which made me wonder...

Speaking of that:

- Isn't there any way to lock up Serenity when they park her? How the hell did they let a group of scrappy cowboys get on board so they could get the jump on Wash and Kaylee? Sloppy...

Heart of Gold confused me. It just didn't 'feel' right. Not a total loss, things could have been done to improve it. Mostly the episode seemed to be servicing the need to start an ongoing conflict between Zoe and Wash, which didn't involve Mal. And it also served to prompt the plot arc involving Inara's decision to leave the ship. Which of course is a reflection of her relationship with Mal. The story was just so flawed, in many ways, and seemed forced.

Mostly, I just love Firefly like crazy. It's when you care, that if something strikes you wrong, you speak up. Just my opinion.

11thHour

__________________________________________________________

"Doing the impossible makes us mighty." - Malcolm Reynolds

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 4:46 AM

STATIC

Quote:
Originally posted by Ariya:

As for an explanation, Jubal handled each person on the ship differently (as was mentioned above and in the commentary). Kaylee's character was based in her sensuality, her innocence, and her passion.
Ariya

When I first saw this episode, and he asked that question, I admit, my immediate reaction was "WHOA. . .hold up. . .calm down. . .what were the writers thinking?"

Then I watched it again. . .and again. . .and thought about it some more. . .and I tried to imagine what Early was 'all about'. What WOULD you threaten Kaylee with?

"Have you ever been shot, Kaylee?"
"Well. . .yeah."
"Have you ever been smacked around?"
Probably
"Ooooooooooookay. . .so I guess in order to completely terrify you into utter compliance, I'm going to have to threaten you with the only extremely violent act you haven't experienced. . .or if you HAVE experienced it, I'm under the understanding that it's not something that gets 'less terrible' if it occurs more than once (Not being a person who has ever been subjected to a rape, I would never dare suggest that I could even imagine what it is like)."

Was it extreme? Yes.

Was it over-the-top? Definitely.

Do you think Joss could have come up with a BETTER way to give us a glimpse RIGHT OFF THE BAT of what a deeply EVIL and BRUTAL man our potentially recurring villain is? I doubt it.

What REALLY pisses me off is that the censors would have jumped all over it. . .while at the same time, allowing us to watch people eat pureed GOAT PENIS on "Suck Factor". . .er, I mean "Fear Factor."

==================================================
Why will the censors let me watch people eat pureed goat penis, but they won't let me see Inara's nipple?

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 5:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

>>The only thing that bugs me is the use of present day weapons. 500 years in the future and they still use .45's? I wouldn't think that it would have cost too much to fancify the weapons like they did with Mals.<<

But why ?

The Colt peacemaker is as effective, now, as it ever was.
Even better, the Colt M1911 .45 auto - it's been in service since 1911, unchanged in design or construction and the basic design of it has been retained and copied endlessly - form follows function.
I ain't *ever* parting with mine, it's simple, reliable, easy to maintains and puts big nasty holes in whatever you shoot with it.
Like a toothpick, once you've achieved perfection of design, any messing with it just screws it up.
They'll be around for 500 years and more, don't you doubt it.

As for Early and Kaylee ?

He didn't just want compliance, he wanted to mentally and emotionally CRUSH her to the point where she would not in any way, ever even conceive of defying him... in the same way that he physically beat Book senseless, he emotionally beat Kaylee senseless - he did so because he enjoyed it (he's a sadist) and it was quiet.
And point being, without River's interferance - it would have worked.

Tracy ?

Tracy was already dead.
Ok, lemme sum this up for those of less criminal bent, ok?

There would be no profit in putting his original organs on ice and then putting them back in - thus it wasn't ever going to happen.
He would NEVER have been waking up with his own stuff back in, cause he would never have been waking up, see ?
A - No expense of preserving and reinstalling his organs
B - No having to pay the sodder.
C - No Witness.
No, even if by some wild chance they WERE that nice, they'd have ditched Tracey's organs once he sold em out, and what kind of MORON is Tracey in trying to sell that stuff to someone who did not have his original guts to put back in ?

Simon hinted that leaving those organs in Tracey indefinately wasn't survivable either, thus, he was a dead man from the very beginning of this scheme - just a matter of time.
Don't think I'd feel too bad about blowing him away myself, given the situation.

The hovercraft in heart of gold ?

That was ultramodern... how ?
Ever been to Florida, and seen those fan-powered skiffs ?
They DO have hovercraft on similar designs, even now.... I dunno how fast they are tho.
I did think the CGI on it wasn't too hot, tho.

-frem
diefuxdie

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 5:20 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Gorram doubleposts...

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 6:37 AM

LOADANDMAKEREADY

[QUOTE
The Message has to be my favorite episode of all and here’s why this scene worked for me.

When Tracey first came in and Book and Mal were talking, they didn’t have the plan all talked out to every last detail. Both being men with obvious leadership training and military knowledge they didn’t have to spell out exactly what they were thinking, the other man just caught on. When Tracey turned a gun on our crew Book stepped forward and tried to explain the plan, but the gun was quickly turned on him and he was told to “shut it”. Now it doesn’t matter what anyone might have said. Tracey wouldn’t believe it. It would of all been an excuse, a lie, to get Kaylee back before he was handed over to the feds and killed for those fancy organs he was carrying.

Since Tracey was willing to lie and put Serenity and her crew in danger, it seems fitting that he would believe them capable of doing the same to him.

The part I found most interesting, was the very concept that certain organs could only be transported in a body so-to-speak, keeping Tracy alive. But Tracy's organs could be shipped ahead via some 25th century UPS ... it just didn't make sense.

ABOVE ALL ELSE: KYFHO!

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 7:23 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

11thhour- I thought your comments on Heart of Gold were very good. So far I have only watched that epi once and it bugged me too. Ill still watch it again...after all...its all we got :(

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 8:11 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Static:
Do you think Joss could have come up with a BETTER way to give us a glimpse RIGHT OFF THE BAT of what a deeply EVIL and BRUTAL man our potentially recurring villain is? I doubt it.

I wasn't going to post on this thread. All of the least favourite moments are simply glazed over in magical memory fog.

But Early is an interesting point. What he says was designed to bring forth emotion from the viewer. Hopefully directed at the character and not the writer. There are worse things than threatening rape and I'm sure those cop / ambulance / lawyer shows go into them all.

As a side point, I was also moved to discomfort by the "on your knees" scene in Heart of Gold but nobody brings that up.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 8:48 AM

CAITLYN

My least favorite moments: the torture scenes in "War Stories", especially when Mal's ear is cut off. That whole episode is my least favorite. It's totally dark and disturbed in a way no other episode, not even "The Message", is. There is little humor and what there is falls flat for the most part. I find the whole episode hard to watch.

The scene with Early threatening to rape Kaylee BOTHERED me the first time I saw it, but that is one subject that I am definitely overly sensitive about. In retrospect, it does fit Early's character and does show him, to quote someone earlier in the thread, as "one sick bastard".

"Heart of Gold" is a weak link, I agree. It still doesn't bother me nearly as much as "War Stories".

"Hamsters is nice"

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 8:53 AM

BARNEYT

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
[BAs a side point, I was also moved to discomfort by the "on your knees" scene in Heart of Gold but nobody brings that up.

Yeah, me too - I don't know why it doesn't get mentioned in discussions about the reactions to Jubal Early - maybe it's an indication that most people (like me) didn't like the HoG episode and so didn't have that much of a reaction to that situation.

Also, Jubal Early, for all that he's insane, is charismatic so it is more disturbing to see him act this way - plus it was Kaylee and that'll always gets people's blood boiling!

---
"I think the right place to start is to say, fair is fair. This is who we are. These are our numbers." Mr Willis of Ohio - The West Wing

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