Very progressive Thinking by browncoatjim

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Very progressive Thinking

POSTED BY: BROWNCOATJIM
UPDATED: Thursday, September 28, 2006 13:38
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 2060
PAGE 1 of 1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:04 PM

I am sitting here, watching "War Stories" again, and it just struck me how very progresive the thinking and characterizations on Joss's part were.

Mal and Zoe are that rarest of entities in movie or television writing: a man and a woman who are purely, utterly platonic. Of course Zoe is married to Wash, and mal carries his torch for Inara, but here are two attractive humans (quite stunning on Zoe's part) with no sexual or romantic tension between them. Mulder and Scully to Crichton and Aeryn, all the way to the Doctor and Rose, there was always that spark there, whether acted upon or not, but Mal and Zoe are purely friends, comrades, individuals harboring deep intimate love and respect for one another, but nothing romantic.

I think that this was a pretty bold notion of Joss's part.......who knows what the future would have held had Fox actually grown a pair and carried the series on, but I do really believe that it was hugely refreshing to watch two characters drawn the ay that these two were.

Thanks, Joss, and i will now go and stick another pin in my Fox voodoo doll for letting this series die. hard to believe that this is the same network that gives us FX, and God help and protect them if they ever lose their balls with Rescue Me!

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:50 PM

NOSADSEVEN

I love the Mal and Zoe relationship, and the subsequent complex tensions between Mal and Wash because of it.

In the Serenity VC Joss mentions that in his initial premise, Zoe's character was a man. I can see how starting off with that conception would allow Joss to look outward for love interests...and then of course the stroke of genius to make the character female. What is so great about it, too, is that the fact that there isn't a romantic reason for her to be so loyal to Mal makes her loyalty that much more meaningful. It says a lot about who Mal is that, even happily married, she sticks by him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:08 PM

PURPLEBELLY

How much more progressive could it have been with Zoe as a male character in an erotic relationship with Wash? Of course you could argue that this is another Whedon sleight of hand - portraying a same sex relationship in a guise that the Network Suits would not recognise; like Buffy and Spike.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:21 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I think Zoe’s loyalty to Mal says more about Zoe then Mal. She is a woman with a strong commitment to her job and a deep conviction for the military chain of command. She believes in service to an idea and something bigger then herself. The only risqué thing in that is the possible perception of a woman (even a black woman) who is in servitude to a man (even a white man). As usual, Joss was risking his reputation on the sophistication of his audience. A less sophisticated audience might have been put off by such a relationship, but Firefly fans know that Zoe’s commitment to Mal is not a superficial statement about Zoe’s gender or skin color, but instead an admirable statement about her character, her conviction to an ideal that there is something more important in life then herself. Zoe is the most unselfish and morally driven person on the crew, and I think it makes her the most admirable.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:26 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

I’m not sure I buy the Progressive angle though. It doesn’t seem to me that there is anything necessarily Progressive about a plutonic relationship between a man and woman, or really even that unusual. Mulder and Scully, for instance, didn’t start out in any kind of romantic relationship; in fact, it took several seasons before I even got the impression they liked each other.

And the Doctor and Rose? Well, the Doctor is a really kind of a perve with a fetish for 20th century young women. I don’t think there is anything surprising about presumptions of romance in that situation.

Maybe I'm not understanding how the author of this thread is using the term Progressive though.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 11:41 PM

PURPLEBELLY

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
... a plutonic relationship between a man and woman ...

You must have met my ex

Not really a Fascist, but I couldn't resist

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:04 AM

BROWNCOATJIM

I used the term progressive in the sensethat Joss skipped stereotyping alltogether by having the two strong lead characters, in this case Mal and Zoe, having no romantic interest in one another at all. Mulder and Scully had the tension going on right from the start, even though it took several years to do anything about it.

Again, maybe progressive was the wrong term, but he did break away from typical storywriting in the way he crafted Mal and Zoe.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 28, 2006 4:22 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by browncoatjim:
I used the term progressive in the sensethat Joss skipped stereotyping alltogether by having the two strong lead characters, in this case Mal and Zoe, having no romantic interest in one another at all.

Yeah I can see that.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:20 AM

AGENTROUKA

Absolutely excellent point about the series, and I agree 100%.

It's one of my favorite aspects of the show, one that struck me first watching it.

Any spark of romantic attraction would have undermined the meaning behind their bond, that loyalty and trust born out of the inhumane hell of war, and as such even the characters of Mal and Zoe.

I admire Joss for making that choice. He created something quite unique and powerful.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:36 AM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I think Zoe’s loyalty to Mal says more about Zoe then Mal. She is a woman with a strong commitment to her job and a deep conviction for the military chain of command. She believes in service to an idea and something bigger then herself.

Of course, but the 'something bigger than herself' here is Mal. Mal, who's currently on no mission bigger than getting by, staying free. That the reason behind that devotion is not romantic is what makes it so meaningful, for both of their characters.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:37 PM

TRAVELER

Even Jayne saw how foolish it was, in "War Stories", when Mal tells Zoe they have to bed each other to resolve what Wash thinks is sexual tension. Jayne said,"Something about that is downright unsettling." Which proves everyone else on Serenity see Mal and Zoe as asexual.

Traveler

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:38 PM

DONCOAT

Zoe's character was only one of quite a number of "progressive" ideas that were embodied in Firefly. Let me see how many I can think of quickly...

- No systematic sexism; men and women all seemed to perform any job they wanted and were qualified for. This extended to job roles: Kaylee was the real "genius mechanic", not Bester.

- A prostitute held the most exalted social status among the crew and recurring characters.

- No double standard of sexual behavior was apparent.

- Same-sex relationships were not stigmatized (Inara/Counsellor).

- The society was a blend of many cultures from Earth-That-Was: American, Chinese, and British (predominantly) but many others were represented.

- The blend of low- and high-tech environments, as well as unique local cultures (Safe, Our Mrs. Reynolds), was more realistic than some S/F that portrays a homogenous, sterile society.

- The Alliance was not a one-dimensional, cartoonish villain, but a bureaucratic government composed of generally well-meaning people.

There were also some progressive ideas in the production values, as opposed to the fictional 'verse itself:

- No sound in space

- Complete interior sets for Serenity

- Lived-in look and feel

- No aliens!

- Incredible original musical score

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER	POST DATE

USER

POST DATE