I still can't believe that (SPOILER, don't read if you haven't seen the movie) by browncoatmike

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

I still can't believe that (SPOILER, don't read if you haven't seen the movie)

POSTED BY: BROWNCOATMIKE
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 07:12
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VIEWED: 4847
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Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 PM

I still can't believe that Wash AND Book got killed. I just watched the BDM for probably the 50th time and it still makes me sad. Anybody else still get that, even after seeing the BDM so many times?

The more I think of it, I think I'm more upset about Book. With so much potential stemming from his past, only to be finished off in the movie.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 1:17 AM

METALSLUG

I'm right there with you, had the TV show gone on I think Shepard Book would have been one of the more interesting character developments and Wash who doesn't love Wash. However for the Movie I hate to say it was necessary for those two to die. For Book I would say that the obvious reason was that something in the story had to get Mal to have faith to believe in something. Mal would have just kept doing what he had always been doing which would be running, but something had to make Mal stop and fight back. Now Wash on the other hand, his death , as much as I hate to say it was also necessary for the movie. However a little bit more complicated if you can follow where I am going with this. I'm trying to think of another group of heros, that have all there own character trates but the only thing that is comming to mind, and please forgive me for bringing this up but its really late, THE POWER RANGERS. Now as a kid I remember watching this show and not ever having to worry about them, no matter what happen I knew that at the end of every episode they would make it out OK. Now at this point in the movie Book is dead, but Book had already been off the ship so we have our eight crew members left see if you can follow me on this one:

Mal: Couldn't die he's the main protagonist in this story he had to walk away learning something from this.

Zoe: Couldn't die you would have two characters having to deal with the loss of her death; namly Mal and Wash. Plus at this point we wanted to see Mal complete his mission and not be distraced by the remorse of his long time friend.

Jayne: Maybe, but they wouldn't have a stood a snowballs chance against all those Reavers with out him.

Simon: Again would have two characters dealing with his loss. Kaylee and River, plus River needed the motivation at the very end to fight all those Reavers.

Kaylee: 'Cmon we were all routing for her to finally get it on with Simon.

River: Mal does take a Journey in this story in discovering faith, but River is right there along side in this Journey in finally dealing with the demons and becoming a better person in the end.

Wash: Had to go, again getting back to the Power Rangers thing. You needed something to let you know that our heros were in great peril, Wash was a main character and if he got killed who could be next.

Although tragic and sad you have to remember Wash went out saving all there lives. BDH for life.

"I'm a Leaf on the Wind"

now back to bed for me.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 2:34 AM

MRBEN

The thing that always makes me sad is that, when people are discussing the BDD (Big Damn Deaths), the talk focuses almost entirely around Wash, and Book hardly gets a mention.

(I'm guessing that 2 of the reasons for this are that a) Alan Tudyk is younger and more attractive than Ron Glass, and b) Wash's death is _much_ more sudden and unexpected)

mrben

"Carpe Aptenodytes"
http://www.jedimoose.org

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Friday, September 29, 2006 3:13 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Actually, I think it's because the character of Wash is so much more loveable. Sorry to all the Book fans, and full respect to the actor, but I never got attached to Book. He was an enigma, we never got to know him, and I wasn't sure what his role was on the ship, other than to be an enigma and occasionally kneecap folk. The only reason I liked the character at all was because of the actor, who did a great job, but Book still fell flat for me. Whenever we talk about Book it tends to be "What the hell was up with him anyway? What was his past? Who is he, really?" and that is the extent. There is more to the character, but we never got to explore him. I'm sure he would have filled out as time went on, but as time didn't get to go on, he's left feeling rather two-dimensional. It's a shame, really, but them's the facts.

And yes, I cry every time.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Gautama Siddharta

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Friday, September 29, 2006 4:08 AM

WINDSTRUCK

I agree with Rose.

Book remains a big question mark until the end.
He was never full revealed in the show. We know he has military connections, combat knowledge and a keen eye for criminal investigation.
He has training with weapons.

Although, does anyone think he is a LEGITIMATE preacher??? I got my votes on MAYBE.

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Friday, September 29, 2006 4:39 AM

KELKHIL

I can't watch that scene in the movie where Wash dies anymore. Every time I watch the movie I have to leave the room after the crash.

Book; I really enjoyed his character. I do not mind that he is an inigma. Kinda adds to his character. I was smad when he died as well. Although I do not think that even if he had lived we would have found out anymore about his past. he said it best when he and Mal were talking about the Operative. I believe he said "No I don't" when Mal was trying to figure out how he knew so much about how and Operative operated. The part of his life that made him turn to God was over. It was not a topic for discussion. I do not think it ever would have been.
There comes a time when you have to move on. when you do it is counter productive to relive the past. Book had moved on. Sure he had knowledge about how an Operative worked but as far as how he gained that knowledge, that was no ones business.

That is why I liked him. He moved on.

Kelkhil

The Shirtless Forsaken

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Friday, September 29, 2006 4:48 AM

STORYMARK

As much as I loved Wash, I found Book to be a much more interesting character. Wash was Wash, I doubt he had much in the way of secrets - what you see is what you get. And what we saw was pretty cool, but there wasn't as much room for development with Wash as with Book.

Book was an enigma. Mysteriouse, lots of secrets and contradictions. Book's backstory would have been very, very interesting to see develop.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 9:15 AM

SAVEWASH

Now I am learning about scary.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kelkhil:
I can't watch that scene in the movie where Wash dies anymore. Every time I watch the movie I have to leave the room after the crash.

I need some serious advice from my fellow Browncoats on this one. I have convinced my sister that she needs to see the BDM (yea! and it only took me a year), but I want to watch it with her and we both have a strict policy of NOT GIVING ANYTHING AWAY. However, I know what's coming with Wash and it's really hard for me to watch him be so heroic while knowing what his fate will be. I start to flinch and react way before Serenity even reaches the ground. How in the world will I manage to stifle all of that so I don't give away what will happen to him? She'll probably notice if I just close my eyes or suddenly need to go get some popcorn or something.

Any advice?

"We need to keep our heads so we can ... keep our heads."

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 2:08 PM

BROWNCOATJIM

Once again, we come to the short-lived nature of the show.......

I think that, had the show lasted, you would have seen Wash and Zoe's marraige hit some seriously rocky roads, and of course, we had to learn more about Book and his past (hell, even the X-files did an episode on the Cigarette Smoking Man's past.....and, being a Patriots fan, I still agree with him about buffalo). Book, well, his death was important, because it was a very important step to Mal finding his passion and faith, but Wash really was tragic, becuase he was just a case of lightning striking more than anything.

WE'RE GONNA CRASH? I DON'T WANNA CRASH!

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Saturday, September 30, 2006 6:10 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
As much as I loved Wash, I found Book to be a much more interesting character. Wash was Wash, I doubt he had much in the way of secrets - what you see is what you get. And what we saw was pretty cool, but there wasn't as much room for development with Wash as with Book.

Book was an enigma. Mysterious, lots of secrets and contradictions. Book's backstory would have been very, very interesting to see develop.

See there? You just proved my point. All we care about is Book's past, not his character as we've seen thus far.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Gautama Siddharta

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 1:18 AM

TEACHDAIRE

Quote:
Originally posted by Windstruck:
I agree with Rose.

Book remains a big question mark until the end.
He was never full revealed in the show. We know he has military connections, combat knowledge and a keen eye for criminal investigation.
He has training with weapons.

Although, does anyone think he is a LEGITIMATE preacher??? I got my votes on MAYBE.

If you read the novelisation of the movie, it's revealed that the opeative and book know each other.

-------------------------------------------------
For every battle honour, a thousand heroes die along, unremembered and unsung...

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 2:07 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Hell, there during the battle scene at the end, I thought Joss was gonna kill ALL of 'em...

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 2:57 AM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

You don't even need to use the Power Ranger reference. Just look at Joss' other works to find the formula. Since Buffy started, Joss wanted you to know that no one was sacred. Every character could die.

Buffy and Angel Spoiler Alert

Select to view spoiler:

In the very first episode of Buffy, Joss killed Jesse (for those that don't know, he was 'best friends' with Willow and Xander). Next major death was on Angel, he killed Doyle, a major character the whole season. Other major deaths included (but certainly not limited to) Cordelia, Spike, Joyce (Buffy's mom), Winifred, Wesley, Buffy (twice), Anya, and Tara (on the first episode she appeared on no less).

Joss kills characters off to move a plot or just to prove to us that he can. No one is above death, not even the main character. It's Joss' style, it always keeps us guessing. And I for one, wouldn't have it any other way. If they make a BDS, Book and Wash will certainly be missed, but I understand why Joss felt they had to go.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 3:36 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Teachdaire:
If you read the novelisation of the movie, it's revealed that the opeative and book know each other.

Cool as the novel is, Joss has said that some of it isn't canon. I would be interested to know if the original script had that scene in it.

http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com - show Universal your gratitude!

Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared. - Gautama Siddharta

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 4:35 AM

NOSADSEVEN

I agree with PR.

Book was a puzzle. I liked to watch him, I liked to see what he had to say. I wanted to know what the deal was with his past. When he died, I felt loss and sadness, but in that fictional, dramatic sort of way. I felt Mal's motivation, I felt vengeful, I felt like you always feel when a beloved character gets killed. It brings you someplace in the movie.

Wash was my friend. My friend. He was the character with today's sensibilities. Wash was that step between my world and their world. He wasn't even my favorite character of the bunch, but he just kept it real. His death affected me like no other movie character death has. I felt true loss and pain, directly. Usually I feel drama, I feel the other characters' pain, I feel the loss of possibility. With Wash, I just felt hurt. I felt like I was kicked in the gut. It wasn't that Zoe or Mal or Kaylee were sad and frightened. It was me. And I was seriously scared that Joss was going to kill 'em all. To the extent that I actually did not enjoy the end of the movie the first time I saw it, because I'd lost my security that things would be ok. It seriously took me time to get over it. I knew he was just a fictional character, but the emotions his death created were real.

So, it's not just that Wash's death affected me more than Book's. Wash's death affected me more deeply and more real-ly than any fictional death ever has. Damn you, Joss Whedon! (ETA: And of course, thank you, Joss Whedon!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 9:33 AM

YESMYNAMEISKALI

i was watching the BDM last night for the 'Versary and when it got to the part where Wash dies, I started crying and almost couldn't laugh at anything for the rest of the movie... ALMOST

-------------------------------------------------

"See, I've secretly been kind of a fan of me for some time now. I've seen everything I've ever done. I'd love to meet me, but I'd probably just stare and not be able to say anything witty or anything." -- Joss Whedon

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Sunday, October 1, 2006 3:14 PM

AKUKODOGO

Me too, I had a sniffly nose and teary eyes so many times even though I knew everything was coming. I still grunted when Serenity hit the runway, I still felt Simon's bullet and the Operatives sword going into Mal. Rivers fear and confusion, her actually being better after the secret was explained. Kaylee's determination to live. Inara's uncertainty at staying with the ship. All the feelings were there.
I liked Book because he was the balance. The old bull in the paddock to show the young bulls how to get to be old bulls.
I liked Wash caused he loved his wife and was as brave as he could be for her.
Joss's writing is like life, there are all sorts of bends in the road and not everyone everyone's end is with you.
2007 is the cut off date for Fox, imagine how much Joss could do with his characters with a four year gap in their story.
How great were Joss's story arcs - infinite.

Savewash - may I suggest keeping very very still, and sit, casually, slightly behind to help keep your reactions to your own self. My two cents worth

Come on little crazy person......

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Monday, October 2, 2006 6:07 AM

SMARTBUTDUMBBLONDE

everytime I watch the BDM, I bawl at the end, I just can't help myself. I start from the first time he says the 'leaf on the wind' quote, because I know what's coming, all the way up until Mal asks Jayne if he brought grenades.

***************
Never do anything you wouldn't want to explain to the paramedics.
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 7:12 AM

SMAUG

Quote:
Joss kills characters off to move a plot or just to prove to us that he can. No one is above death, not even the main character. It's Joss' style, it always keeps us guessing. And I for one, wouldn't have it any other way. If they make a BDS, Book and Wash will certainly be missed, but I understand why Joss felt they had to go.

I agree with everyone's point about how Wash and Book's deaths were necissary for the plot of the story. But more than just it being Joss's style.. or that he can.. I believe there is something even more.

Often the most intense moments of one's life.. is when suffereing a loss. Grief.. there is hardly a more intense forever lingering emotion. When a story, book, movie, etc. has a happy fairy tale ending.. you smile.. you say that was a good story.. and you go on. Years later.. you may hardly remember the story at all. But how many stories have you heard or seen your entire life... that involved trajedy.. that you will vividly carry the rest of your life? How many times has trajedy happened in your real life.. that if you think upon it.. you remember your every heartbeat.. your every breath.. your every thought during that time? Yes.. life will go on.. but trajedy changes you.. it strikes a cord in your soul that will never stop ringing.

For those who "enjoyed" Serenity.. life goes on. For those of us who "loved" Serenity.. this world.. this universe.. these characters.. these stories.. Book and Washes death... strikes a cord we will never forget. That's why I believe Joss did it.. ultimatly..

Sometimes when you love something.. or someone.. soooo much... losing them... all you can do... all you can ever feel.. is missing them... and grieve... forever.. holding the memory and love of them forever at the core of your soul..

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