Did Book know the Miranda secret? by DonCoat

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Did Book know the Miranda secret?

POSTED BY: DONCOAT
UPDATED: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 14:50
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Monday, October 2, 2006 3:42 AM

Something struck me the other day as I was thinking about the BDM and how certain things were subtly changed from the series.

One was this: the explanation for the existence of Reavers (prior to the Miranda revelation) was originally a kind of common knowledge. Simon mentions "campfire stories" about savages at the edge of civilization. Somewhere (Bushwhacked, maybe?) Mal describes Reavers as men who were driven crazy by the psychological impact of deep space.

But in the BDM, when we get that explanation, things are much more specific. Kaylee gives the standard story, but she specifically credits it: "Shepherd Book used to say that Reavers was just men who looked out over the vasty nothingness and went bibbledy over it." (That's probably not verbatim, but it gets the gist of it).

Now, why would we suddenly hear that the Reaver story came from Book? I can think of a few intriguing possibilities.

First, though, a more mundane one: Joss used that line as a convenient place to slip in a mention of Shepherd Book to help non-Firefly fans figure out who Book was when we met him later. In other words, it was a bit of foreshadowing. But why use that specific place to do it?

So here's another take: maybe Joss was dropping a hint about Book's past. Kaylee tells us that Book was spreading the "space-crazy" story of Reaver origins. But we later learn that this wasn't how the Reavers came to be at all. So perhaps Book knew the truth, but was part of a "disinformation" campaign to cover up that truth.

If this is so, then we have another clue as to who Book was when he "wasn't always a shepherd". He may have been high enough in the Alliance government to have knowledge of some of its deepest secrets. He might have been on a par with those "key members of Parliament" that River met in the Academy. (Of course, he could also have been just another victim of still higher-level disinformation -- but that's not quite so much fun, is it?)

If in fact the "space-crazy" story is Alliance disinformation, it seems to have been pretty successful (up until River escaped, anyway). Note that it's a two-level propaganda campaign: ofiicially, Reavers don't even exist; but for those who know they do exist, there's the second layer of cover.

If the fake origin story was as widespread and accepted as it seems, Book and/or his Alliance colleagues did a fine job spreading it. In fact, the only skeptic we ever hear from is, of all people, Jayne! ("... just looked like... more space.")

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Monday, October 2, 2006 5:05 AM

ZEEK

I'm gonna go ahead and say that whether he knew or not he was not trying to mount a one man disinformation campaign to influence 8 people in the whole verse. That just doesn't seem like the way the alliance would work anyway. They'd just put up news posts with their disinformation and that would be the end of it.

I don't think Book knew about Miranda though. I still don't know exactly who he is, but he seems more the mercinary/assasin sort to me.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 5:10 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

I think that, in his younger years, Book was millitary, and then a high-ranking member of Parliment. But I think he left to become a monk/shepherd long before Miranda took place. Interesting take on things, though.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 5:25 AM

MRT

Maybe it was the Miranda episode that lead to him leaving the government and going to the monastery to find peace with his conscience, or leaving the monastery and heading into the black to see if he could find peace with himself there... I’m not too sure about the time-line of events on this I’m afraid.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 5:39 AM

TEACHDAIRE

Personally, I think he didn't know about the reaver/Miranda connection, and as for Alliance misinformation by following the "space crazy" theory, that's wrong.

The Alliance misinformation regarding the reavers is simply denial. They deny their existance, not say that they were people who went crazy, hence simon's "campfire tales" of them.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 6:38 AM

DONCOAT

Teachdaire, I think you mis-read or misunderstood my suggestion. Look again. I said that the *official* story was that the Reavers didn't exist. That might fly for the large populations in the Core, but people on the Rim knew better -- they'd encountered the Reavers and seen their depradations. You might be able to convince a resident of Rome that Vikings are just scary stories, but that won't fly for the British citizens who are getting their churches burned and daughters raped.

So the "space-crazy" story is a *second level* of disinformation for folk who know that the Reavers are real: yes, they exist, but they're just insane people. "Honest, we didn't do it (and we'll never do it again)".

Zeek, I didn't mean to suggest that Book was the *only* person who was spreading the disinformation, nor that our BDHs were the *only* people it was being spread to. In fact, since the Serenity crew knew all about the Reavers before Book even joined them, that idea would make no sense at all.

Actually, a better objection would be: why would Book continue providing disinformation now that he's a shepherd and no longer an Alliance insider? There are several possibilities. Perhaps he's repeating a cover story that he's been fed, and really believes it. Perhaps he knows enough about Operatives to keep up the deception out of fear that he may become a target. Or possibly he's still an Alliance agent on some level, though I don't much like that notion.

Most likely (to me, if this scenario has any merit at all) is that he's just not rocking the boat. He's clearly keeping his background a secret, so how could he start making wild claims about the Reavers and be taken seriously? Might as well stick to the disinformation.

Finally, I'll give one more little factoid to support my idea. With his very last breath, Book is thinking of River and trying to get Mal to listen to her. How else do you explain that unless Book knew what River knew? Why would he be telling Mal to pay attention to a crazy girl if not because he knew she was the only one left who knew the big secret?

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Monday, October 2, 2006 6:59 AM

CITIZEN

Did he know? No.

In the series he has a line in Bushwhacked that lends me to believe that he believes that Reavers can be rehabillitated, through the Bible for instance.

If he knew where and how Reavers were made would he really think a bit of understanding and the words of the good book would convince them from dining out on Human finger dip?

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Monday, October 2, 2006 7:15 AM

MARINA

Point of interest (I'm getting so used to writing that down in all my notes):

During the Maidenhead scene, as the captain 'n crew are entering, in the background the news broadcaster says "No Alliance government has ever verified the existence of Reavers..."

So I think we can at least be confident of that.

As for Book...Well, ok. Someone help me out here. I have looked at the shirts and the props and the gadgets and every time I see this quote used it reads "I don't care what you believe- just believe it." I don't have the best ears, but I could swear in the film he says

Book: River...
Mal (to the others): Come on!
Book: I don't care what you believe, just believe whatever she -dies-...

Am I the only one? It may or may not have an effect on this debate, depending.

I'm very smart.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 7:24 AM

THATWEIRDGIRL

I don't think Book knew about Miranda, River would have read that off of him by now. Book knows things. And we're not likely to ever find out what they are. I do believe Book has some knowledge of who/what River is.

Pez mentioned something intriguing the other day....How much trouble will the Operative get in once 'they' find out Book was killed at Haven?

Ooooo, I said. Interesting idea.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 8:27 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by marina:
As for Book...every time I see this quote used it reads "I don't care what you believe- just believe it." I don't have the best ears, but I could swear in the film he says

Book: River...
Mal (to the others): Come on!
Book: I don't care what you believe, just believe whatever she -dies-...

According to the Visual Companion, Book's line was supposed to be:

"I don't care what you believe. Just believe it. Whatever you have to." -dies-

The actual line is more like this (to my ears):

"I don't care what you believe. Just believe it. Whatever you..." -trails off, dies-

I asked Ron Glass about this at last year's Flanvention. I wondered whether the line had been changed, or if he'd done it various ways and they chose that one, or what. He wasn't even aware there was any discrepancy. He got a bit offended when I suggested he might have ad libbed. He takes great pride in performing his lines as written/directed. (I almost felt ashamed for asking the question, as if I'd suggested he'd eaten a baby or something!)

That suggests that the line may have been changed in the script prior to shooting. Or Joss may have asked him to change the delivery on one or more takes, and Ron just didn't recall that detail.

I think I like the on-screen version better -- it's a bit more ambiguous and leaves us wondering what he was trying to say.

Either way, he called out to River, or mentioned River, just before that last line, so he was thinking of her when he said it.

Oh, as to your point about the Maidenhead broadcast: you're quite right. The newscaster was giving the official Alliance line, namely that Reavers don't exist. The phrasing suggests that the reporter was somewhat skeptical about it, which would make sense if the newscast was a "local" or "regional" one, intended for the Rim residents (who would not trust a flat denial, or a news program that toed the Alliance line too closely).

None of that makes my speculation any less likely. A disinformation campaign of the sort I'm proposing would not be spread via overt statements in newscasts. It would work more like today's urban myths or internet rumors.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 8:37 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Did he know? No.

In the series he has a line in Bushwhacked that lends me to believe that he believes that Reavers can be rehabillitated, through the Bible for instance.

If he knew where and how Reavers were made would he really think a bit of understanding and the words of the good book would convince them from dining out on Human finger dip?

Okay, I don't remember a line like that. I'll have to re-watch Bushwhacked to see what he says.

Of course, depending on which interpretation you make, it could still fit with the "Book knew" idea. For one thing, he could have been sustaining the disinformation story. Or he might have been fooling himself into thinking that faith could work a "talking cure" on the Reavers, even knowing their true origin. Or he might have found out the truth sometime between Bushwhacked and the BDM.

I wonder -- did Book do anything when he was aboard that Alliance cruiser in Safe, other than get medical treatment? Maybe he had a quiet chat with the local branch of the intelligence service, or representatives of the Blue Hands outfit.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 8:44 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
I don't think Book knew about Miranda, River would have read that off of him by now.

Well, sure, but then River already knew, didn't she? She got that information in the Academy, even before she met Book.

Maybe the fact that Book knew was one of the things that kept her from getting better -- she kept reading it from him and that brought the nightmares back.

Quote:
Originally posted by thatweirdgirl:
Pez mentioned something intriguing the other day....How much trouble will the Operative get in once 'they' find out Book was killed at Haven?

Ooooo, I said. Interesting idea.

Agreed! But I don't think that would get him in any more trouble than letting River go would. No doubt they still want her for her "human weapon" abilities, maybe even more so now that she has them under conscious control. And Book, though still honored, was (probably) not an active agent anymore, so his loss would be less keen.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 8:50 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by MrT:
Maybe it was the Miranda episode that lead to him leaving the government and going to the monastery to find peace with his conscience, or leaving the monastery and heading into the black to see if he could find peace with himself there... I’m not too sure about the time-line of events on this I’m afraid.

I think the time line works just fine. The Miranda disaster took place a good ten years before the BDM, before the Unification War. Book left the abbey just hours before Serenity (pilot), which gives Book eight years or so to get his soul in order.

Even if you imagine Book entered the abbey after the war, he'd still have six years of the contemplative life before joining the good ship S.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 9:18 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
Of course, depending on which interpretation you make, it could still fit with the "Book knew" idea. For one thing, he could have been sustaining the disinformation story. Or he might have been fooling himself into thinking that faith could work a "talking cure" on the Reavers, even knowing their true origin. Or he might have found out the truth sometime between Bushwhacked and the BDM.

I think the whole disinformation thing is a major stretch. Also if Book knew it would make sense to expose that in the film.

Quote:
I wonder -- did Book do anything when he was aboard that Alliance cruiser in Safe, other than get medical treatment? Maybe he had a quiet chat with the local branch of the intelligence service, or representatives of the Blue Hands outfit.

I doubt it, he couldn't even remember who had treated him, Mal had to tell him.

Quote:
I think the time line works just fine. The Miranda disaster took place a good ten years before the BDM, before the Unification War.

Actually according to the timeline it happened just before the unification war. This is also borne out by Kaylee remembering it. She's quite young, early twenties at most. If it had taken place ten years before the unification war Kaylee would be what, between 4 and 8? It's unlikely she'd remember "calls for people to settle on Miranda" from that age. Do you remember what adverts were on TV when you were 4?

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Monday, October 2, 2006 10:38 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:
Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
I think the time line works just fine. The Miranda disaster took place a good ten years before the BDM, before the Unification War.
Actually according to the timeline it happened just before the unification war. This is also borne out by Kaylee remembering it. She's quite young, early twenties at most. If it had taken place ten years before the unification war Kaylee would be what, between 4 and 8? It's unlikely she'd remember "calls for people to settle on Miranda" from that age. Do you remember what adverts were on TV when you were 4?

You misread my statement, which is odd since you quoted it. I said the Miranda incident occurred ten years before the BDM. That was also before the Unification War, but not ten years before the war.

As to your other points, you could well be correct... but I think it's an interesting possibility worth some discussion. There are so many places Joss could have taken the series! I have a hunch that at some point, Book would have done something very, very bad (from our BDHs' perspective). Like maybe betray them at some critical moment. Possibly it would have been written in such a way that Book felt he was compelled by his faith to do so. That wouldn't be unlike Joss, from all I've heard.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 10:52 AM

MARINA

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:

The actual line is more like this (to my ears):

"I don't care what you believe. Just believe it. Whatever you..." -trails off, dies-

Could be. I listened to it the other night on this surround sound system, and I'll just say - if he squeezed that many words into that time frame, he's quite the mumbler!

Quote:
I asked Ron Glass about this at last year's Flanvention. I wondered whether the line had been changed, or if he'd done it various ways and they chose that one, or what. He wasn't even aware there was any discrepancy. He got a bit offended when I suggested he might have ad libbed. He takes great pride in performing his lines as written/directed. (I almost felt ashamed for asking the question, as if I'd suggested he'd eaten a baby or something!)

That made me laugh :)

Quote:
None of that makes my speculation any less likely. A disinformation campaign of the sort I'm proposing would not be spread via overt statements in newscasts. It would work more like today's urban myths or internet rumors.

I agree with you; I like to think of the series in terms of what frontier life consists of and how spattered the stories that come back are. Someone, of course, learned of the Reavers and leaked their very existance to someone in the general public. Then began the Alliance's efforts to discredit such stories, which, as you stated, took many many forms.

I'm very smart.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 10:55 AM

MONTANABROWNCOAT

I personally don't even believe Book's last name was the truth. I kinda think that he may have been a former operative (pure speculation). The reason I believe "Book" to be an operative is b/c they don't exist, yet he knew of them, and in the BDM, he tells our Cap'n that there's probably an operative on the case now. However, since there is a period of 8 months b/t the begining of the TV series and the time period posed in the BDM, why would the Alliance wait 8 months to assign this to an operative?
Allow me to confess my ignorance, if there is information to fill in the gap b/t the tv series, which so sadly ended in its infancy, and the BDM. I am a relative noob @ this.
Oh, and to answer your question regarding Book knowing about Miranda, I don't think so, based on my opinion of he being an operative, and The operative in the BDM obviously didn't know the truth either.

You shot me in the back!!

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Monday, October 2, 2006 11:10 AM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Montanabrowncoat:
I personally don't even believe Book's last name was the truth. I kinda think that he may have been a former operative (pure speculation). The reason I believe "Book" to be an operative is b/c they don't exist, yet he knew of them, and in the BDM, he tells our Cap'n that there's probably an operative on the case now. However, since there is a period of 8 months b/t the begining of the TV series and the time period posed in the BDM, why would the Alliance wait 8 months to assign this to an operative?
Allow me to confess my ignorance, if there is information to fill in the gap b/t the tv series, which so sadly ended in its infancy, and the BDM. I am a relative noob @ this.
Oh, and to answer your question regarding Book knowing about Miranda, I don't think so, based on my opinion of he being an operative, and The operative in the BDM obviously didn't know the truth either.

I personally don't hold to the "Book was an (ex-)operative" theory. There are plenty of other highly-placed people who could have knowledge of Niska, military and government operations and tactics, and the other mysterious things Book reveals from time to time. I like to think he had several careers, perhaps beginning in the military, then law enforcement or possibly intelligence. He could even have been a member of Parliament at one point, or possibly a staffer working for an MP. Finally, for one reason or another, he had a crisis of conscience and entered the abbey. But of course, your speculations are every bit as good as mine.

I would say your time line is off a little. Most folks say there's no more than two months between Objects In Space and the start of the BDM. Mal says Simon and River have only been on the ship eight months at that point (that is, 8 mos from Serenity pilot to Serenity movie), though he may have been mistaken.

And yes, there is some 'canon' that partly fills the gap between the series and movie. It's a 3-book comic series written by Joss. It's now available as a single volume "graphic novel" called "Serenity - Those Left Behind". Amazon can provide.

And in case nobody said so before, WELCOME! Always glad to have a new Browncoat aboard. If you haven't done so, post a little "hello" thread over in General Discussions and tell us how you found your way here. You'll soon be showered with strawberries, Mudder's Milk, and a virtual browncoat of your very own.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 11:41 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
You misread my statement, which is odd since you quoted it. I said the Miranda incident occurred ten years before the BDM. That was also before the Unification War, but not ten years before the war.

I appologise, but still, just before the U-War is six years, not ten.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 12:28 PM

DONCOAT

No need to apologize, Citizen. Maybe I could have phrased things more clearly. In any case I was just trying to make my point, which nobody is obliged to agree with. Not trying to cause any great schism in fandom!

I did mention that there was a six-year gap from the U-war to Serenity pilot, which I argue is enough time for Book to get his shepherd's collar even if Book didn't enter the abbey until then. Since Miranda was earlier still, he would have even longer in the abbey (if we assume he took his vows back then).

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Monday, October 2, 2006 12:33 PM

CITIZEN

I don't think Miranda happened more than a year before the U war, probably a few months. In either event the people who knew about Miranda and are still alive seems pretty limited to parliment members, and I don't think Book as one of those.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 1:13 PM

STINKINGROSE

Just to add gas to the whole timeline thingy...
I'd swear I heard Mal say Reavers had been around about 12 years.
Could have misheard that.

Reavers would provide an excellent cautionary tale for those considering pushing out even farther into the black.

Also good to scare children into better behavior for those not in close proximity to the actual entity.
"Eat your spinach or the Reavers will get you."

Word of Reavers would be spreading at the folk level (word of mouth) and you all know how quickly urban legends can travel, especially if there's a shred of truth to the story that lends good or even semi plausible detail.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 1:31 PM

DONCOAT

Maybe you're thinking of Jayne. In the "eating people alive... where's that get fun?" scene he says that the Reavers have been around for the last ten years.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 2:41 PM

DOCTROID

Quote:
Originally posted by DonCoat:
The Miranda disaster took place a good ten years before the BDM, before the Unification War.

Well, it was six years from the end of the war to the beginning of the BDS. The BDM was some months later, and the start of the war was presumably several years earlier. So Miranda could have been during the war, not before it. Not that that matters to the present discussion, of course.

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Monday, October 2, 2006 8:44 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by marina:
Book: River...
Mal (to the others): Come on!
Book: I don't care what you believe, just believe whatever she -dies-...

That's what I always heard.

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:30 AM

MARINA

Oh thank goodness I'm not the only one. I can't tell you how many times I replayed that scene struggling to hear what it was "supposed" to be.

I'm very smart.

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 1:09 PM

MOOSE

Quote:
Originally posted by stinkingrose:
Just to add gas to the whole timeline thingy...
I'd swear I heard Mal say Reavers had been around about 12 years.
Could have misheard that.
.

Mal said that the report was 12 years old.

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 1:14 PM

SHROUDED

Okay, that forced me to re-watch the scene, and I distinctly heard, "I don't care what you believe -- just believe it. Whatever she--"

And y'know, this brings around a new speculation I haven't seen up here yet -- perhaps Book was one of the "key members of Parliament" River gleaned the Miranda information from? If the line above if really what Book says, perhaps THAT'S the reason he knew? And maybe that's why he stuck around on Serenity so long -- but I dunno. It's all speculation, and I personally like the idea of Book going into the monastery because of Miranda.

Just willin' to throw out new ideas is all.

---------------------------------------

The only animals I'm not comfortable with are parrots, but I'm learning as I go. I'm getting better and better at 'em. I really am. - Steve Irwin, our Honorary BDH

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 1:16 PM

SHROUDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Moose:
Quote:
Originally posted by stinkingrose:
Just to add gas to the whole timeline thingy...
I'd swear I heard Mal say Reavers had been around about 12 years.
Could have misheard that.
.

Mal said that the report was 12 years old.

Which means that reavers have been around for at least 12 years.

---------------------------------------

The only animals I'm not comfortable with are parrots, but I'm learning as I go. I'm getting better and better at 'em. I really am. - Steve Irwin, our Honorary BDH

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 2:15 PM

DONCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Shrouded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Moose:
Quote:
Originally posted by stinkingrose:
Just to add gas to the whole timeline thingy...
I'd swear I heard Mal say Reavers had been around about 12 years.
Could have misheard that.
.

Mal said that the report was 12 years old.

Which means that reavers have been around for at least 12 years.

Which means Miranda was settled before that -- probably at least a couple of years before. So we know that by the time of the BDM, Kaylee was probably at least 24 years old. (Point of interest.)

Anyhow, plenty of time for Book to do his time in the abbey, whether you think he went in after Miranda or after the U-War.

Okay, to get back to the original idea... what if Book was the guy in a policy-making role who actually devised the two-level disinformation strategy? The guy who wrote the official denials while starting the "space-crazy" theory via rumors and cortex blogs (or equivalent)? I'm seeing him in a kind of Karl Rove-ish role.

Hey, it may not be anywhere near what Joss had in mind, but it's pretty slick.

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Tuesday, October 3, 2006 2:50 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

I "remember" snatches of holidays way back, of course they are reinforced by pictures and recollections by my family.

Kaylee's family most likely talked about moving to Miranda for a long time before making the decision not to go.

I bet too that some conversations after the decision were started using the words "Remember back some years when the family was thinking about moving to Miranda?" It was likely a big decision for the parents whether to go or not and became a marker in the family timeline.

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