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I think we need to get this comment thoroughly buried

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What utter crap. Bland & boring and a total waste of time. Most think Joss Whedon is a genius, but I think he is pretty much hit or miss. Buffy was great the first few years but went down the toilet since its move to UPN. Angel, on the other hand, is sheer brilliance. Excellent characters, excitement, fantastic action, a linked plot, deep revelations...probably the BEST show on TV now. Firefly was just a bore. Dirty westerns trying to be sci-fi don't do it for me. And the cast was just plain annoying.

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Originally posted by IamJacksUsername:
Why would you want to bury it anyway?

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Originally posted by Fireflythemovie:

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Originally posted by IamJacksUsername:
Why would you want to bury it anyway?

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Because it doesn't come close to reflecting the general sentiment if you read through all the comments?

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Originally posted by firelily:
Let that person have their opinion, if it doesn't reflect the general sentiment, you should be glad.

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Originally posted by IamJacksUsername:
, maybe they don't like its politics (like me),

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Originally posted by Saffy:
The last user comment saved is the one that is displayed prominently to visitors to the Firefly page. They don't see the other comments unless they go looking for them.

No one is trying to take anyone's voice away, for heaven's sake. That person's post will stay there for prosperity. It's just a good-natured pride thing: Knock down the other team's flag and get ourselves back on top.

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Originally posted by Steve580:
Hey, and let's not forget, the South wasn't exactly 'evil'. I mean, if it was a show that made the Nazis seem like heros, that'd be one thing; they were evil.

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The southerners just didn't like the direction the government was headed towards: a society where freedom is forgotten, where the ideas of our founding fathers are past. Looking at our nation today, it seems their fears were not wrong.

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I'm not a southerner, by the by, nor am I one of those guys who drives a pick-up with a Rebel flag on the back. I just understand what they were fighting for, and why, and I can't say that they were wrong.
-Steve

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It doesn't seem like simply posting yet another comment will bury it. Maybe we need to figure out how that top post gets there before we brute force run around like "chickens with our heads cut off" fashion.

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Redjack, there's no way I can say this without somehow being offensive to you, but I'll try to minimize it, ok ?

Nobody does evil just to do evil, all people think that what they are doing is the right thing to do, no matter what side of the battlefield they wind up on.

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It would seriously help to actually study the history instead of blithely accepting the spoon-fed, heavily politically-correct version of it taught in most schools.

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There wasn't a right or a wrong there, just two ways of life and ideals of government that clashed and turned to violence - and history, as we know it, was written by the winners, of COURSE they're going to demonize the losers, it's human nature.

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PEOPLE are not evil, what people DO sometimes is. And most of the folks who do "evil" things do not see it that way, and it might have even been the "right" thing to do in their worldview and historical context, they did not have the internet or an informed information society.

So, can we back off the hate spewing here, ok ?

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Originally posted by Saint Jayne:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:
It doesn't seem like simply posting yet another comment will bury it. Maybe we need to figure out how that top post gets there before we brute force run around like "chickens with our heads cut off" fashion.

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I posted there. I hope you're not implying that I act thoughtlessly. A good review is still good for Firefly, reguardless of the motivation.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Originally posted by Fremdfirma:
Redjack, there's no way I can say this without somehow being offensive to you, but I'll try to minimize it, ok ?

Nobody does evil just to do evil, all people think that what they are doing is the right thing to do, no matter what side of the battlefield they wind up on.

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Tell that the to millions of human livestock the Confederates were willing to die and kill to keep in their generationally degraded condition.

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It would seriously help to actually study the history instead of blithely accepting the spoon-fed, heavily politically-correct version of it taught in most schools.

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Yes. it would. When you you plan to do that? I cited the Articles of Confederation. What's PC about those? Or you could take any random speech by Jefferson Davis. That's just for starters.

And you can check your "I know the REAL story attitude" at the door. It's clear you don't. Or dont' care.

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There wasn't a right or a wrong there, just two ways of life and ideals of government that clashed and turned to violence - and history, as we know it, was written by the winners, of COURSE they're going to demonize the losers, it's human nature.

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Soooo describing American Slavery [and the government that subsisted on it and fought to maintain it and nearly kept the country from being born in the first place over it] as it actually was-accurately– is "demonizing? Keep dreaming, kid.

There was a wrong there. And, though the war wasn't, strictly speaking, about righting it, it defintiely became an integral part. Again, there's that actual History you might want to look at before "correcting" me.

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PEOPLE are not evil, what people DO sometimes is. And most of the folks who do "evil" things do not see it that way, and it might have even been the "right" thing to do in their worldview and historical context, they did not have the internet or an informed information society.

So, can we back off the hate spewing here, ok ?

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I haven't spewed any hate. I know and have cited the actual history. If you'd like a real lesson we can move this off the site. Calling the Confederacy evil is by no means Hate Speech. No more than calling Hitler an insane egomaniac with delusions of "racial purity" is either innacurate or an insult.

And, wow, if that was "minimizing" the offensiveness, what on Earth must you really think?


Yikes.



The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Really, I think there are a lot of historical correction and reinterpretation going on as well. Yes, those are the things that happened in the past; and we surely despise and disapprove of those kinds of ideas nowadays. But were those ideas truly *bad* back then?

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Let's face it, I am not necessarily a revisionist or do I think it's ok to excuse them, nor do I think we should do those things today (or at all). Clearly, every single civilization had slaves in the past (some still do today), it's a matter of capital and economics.

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And let's not talk about caste systems that exist today.

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We can learn from history without beating those folks over it - because those poor sod are exactly like you and me, completely clueless that every single action we do today will be reinterpreted years from now.

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Learn and move on.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Really, I think there are a lot of historical correction and reinterpretation going on as well. Yes, those are the things that happened in the past; and we surely despise and disapprove of those kinds of ideas nowadays. But were those ideas truly *bad* back then?

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Yes. Britain and France had done away with the practice altogether. The American government was restricting the addition of new slave states with an eye to phasing the practice out completely and, let's not ever forget that the nation itself was almost stillborn because of the South's refusal to agree that keeping african slaves was hypocritial if you going to war over issues of Freedom. Does the phrase "Peculiar Institution" ring any bells?

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Originally posted by Redjack:


No one is "revising" anything. In fact this whole "they didn't know any better back then" stuff is the real modern twist. There was an ongoing debate about the practice pretty much from its inception.

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Let's face it, I am not necessarily a revisionist or do I think it's ok to excuse them, nor do I think we should do those things today (or at all). Clearly, every single civilization had slaves in the past (some still do today), it's a matter of capital and economics.

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That's a very facile and immature construct. Slavery, previous to the inception of American Chattel Slavery, was a function of conquest and was neither generational nor based upon ethnicity.

It was the European/American addition of "racial inferiority" as a component and the mechanization of the process which differentiated American Chattel Slavery from what had gone before.

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And let's not talk about caste systems that exist today.

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Oh please. There's no comparisson. None. That's like saying a guy not being able to catch a cab is the same as getting lynched or whipped to death.

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We can learn from history without beating those folks over it - because those poor sod are exactly like you and me, completely clueless that every single action we do today will be reinterpreted years from now.

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Uh. Nope. Those "poor sods" were no differnt than any Nazi. They weren't ignorant. They were in willful opposition to the thrust of Western society at the time. And damned proud of it.

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Learn and move on.

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Back atcha, Kiddo.

Still




The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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Originally posted by Crowflyy:
Went back to check that IMDB site and it seems a different review is posted.I looked through a bunch of the reviews posted and they all do seem pretty positive. I wonder if the site rotates through all the reviews and posts them randomly, because the one showing today is from Jan 8, and many have been posted since. Just a thought.

Crow

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Ok, now we've switched arguments from plain slavery to "racially inferior".

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Every "race" has a favorite "others" to pick on.

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I don't disagree that Americans brand of slavery took a twist in the populate media. But to say that all types of slavery aren't racially motivated prior to the new World is .... hmmmm

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I am saying that we are no better Joes than any of those slobs as far as knowing what is right and wrong.

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and the cycle of blame continues, absolutely no learning whatsoever.

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No, I meant the 4000 thousand years before that. Why does everyone think History itself began with the American Revolution?

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Originally posted by Steve580:
Hey, and let's not forget, the South wasn't exactly 'evil'. I mean, if it was a show that made the Nazis seem like heros, that'd be one thing; they were evil.

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I'm really intesested in what a society would have to do to qualify as evil in your mind.

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The southerners just didn't like the direction the government was headed towards: a society where freedom is forgotten, where the ideas of our founding fathers are past. Looking at our nation today, it seems their fears were not wrong.

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That's one of the most frightening things I've ever read in my life.

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I'm not a southerner, by the by, nor am I one of those guys who drives a pick-up with a Rebel flag on the back. I just understand what they were fighting for, and why, and I can't say that they were wrong.
-Steve

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Then you don't have a problem with a society which was entirely based upon and fueled by the generational exploitation of human beings as livestock and labor saving devices.

The Confederay WAS evil. Any way you slice it. It was antithetical to everything the United States was and, more importantly, IS supposed to stand for.

There is no difference between the Confederacy and the Nazi regime. Aside from being about a century apart (providing the Nazis with better tools) their world veiws were essentially the same.

And to describe them as fighting for "freedom" is to completely fail to grasp history. The Articles of Confederation alone refute your assessment.

The issue was "States Rights." What right was being contested? The "right" to own and trade, rape, kill and otherwise degrade human beings.

Yeah. Them poor Rebs was wicked misunderstood.

But not by me.




The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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Originally posted by Firefly0helped0me0pass0the0bar:
I just want to say to all those people who told me that Firefly was a good series...you were WRONG...it is a GREAT series. I am studying for the NY bar, and it has gotten me this far...unfortunately, I have no more episodes to watch.

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I would just like to point out that most of the Confederate soldiers that fought in the war weren't fighting to keep slavery but for what they considered State's Rights.

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Slavery was always an issue but it has always somehow buried the rest of the issues for why the war fought.

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Another thing was that most of the Confederate soldiers that fought in the war never owned a slave, would never own a slave, and had come from farms they worked themselves.

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I would also like to point out that a lot of the Confederacy's greatest Generals were also against the institution of slavery but saw the infringement of the State's Rights as a greater and more deadlier evil than slavery at the time.

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And many Confederates fought because there homes were being invaded by what they considered a foreign army.

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I would also like to remind you all that the Union fought the war to 'Preserve the Union' not end slavery.

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In fact the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the States that were in rebellion and that was done to hurt the South's economy but lost Lincoln a lot of support in the North which led to the draft and then later the draft riots, some violent (ie. New York City as seen in 'Gangs of New York' at the end').

There were heroes and villians on both sides and each side had its own good points and evil.

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Originally posted by Steve580:
Make no mistake, the Civil War wasn't a war to end slavery. The southerners just didn't like the direction the government was headed towards: a society where freedom is forgotten, where the ideas of our founding fathers are past. Looking at our nation today, it seems their fears were not wrong.
-Steve

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Originally posted by Redjack:
Yeah. Them poor Rebs was wicked misunderstood.

But not by me.

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I would just like to point out that most of the Confederate soldiers that fought in the war weren't fighting to keep slavery but for what they considered State's Rights.

I covered that. Stopping at the phrase "States Rights" allows for a linguistic grey area which does not, in fact, exist..

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Slavery was always an issue but it has always somehow buried the rest of the issues for why the war fought.

Name them. And then describe how the removal of the economic base- Chattel Slavery- didn't directly affect them..

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Another thing was that most of the Confederate soldiers that fought in the war never owned a slave, would never own a slave, and had come from farms they worked themselves.

Just because you can't afford something doesn't mean you don't agree that people should be allowed to. Clearly the low caste whites were too stupid to realise that their own situations weren't too far above those of the blacks whose bondage they were willing to kill and die to maintain. Either that or they just agreed.

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I would also like to point out that a lot of the Confederacy's greatest Generals were also against the institution of slavery but saw the infringement of the State's Rights as a greater and more deadlier evil than slavery at the time.

Making them either liars or hypocrites or both. Bravo, gentlemen..

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And many Confederates fought because there homes were being invaded by what they considered a foreign army.

Shouldn't have seceded then, I guess. Declaring war tends to make people shoot at you..

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I would also like to remind you all that the Union fought the war to 'Preserve the Union' not end slavery.

No reminder necessary. You're absolutely right. But to discuss the Civil War and its ramifications without placing Slavery dead center is to miss the issue completely. Either willfully or through ignorance.

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In fact the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves in the States that were in rebellion and that was done to hurt the South's economy but lost Lincoln a lot of support in the North which led to the draft and then later the draft riots, some violent (ie. New York City as seen in 'Gangs of New York' at the end').

There were heroes and villians on both sides and each side had its own good points and evil.

I grant you that there were villians on both sides. I defy you to name one good thing about the Confederacy which wasn't supported entirely on the backs of enslaved human beings..

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Originally posted by Jasonzzz:

Ok, now we've switched arguments from plain slavery to "racially inferior".

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Not at all. They are part of the same evil. You can't discuss the one without coming to the other in short order. Well. You can try but people will tend to notice.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Every "race" has a favorite "others" to pick on.

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Well, isn't that a comfortable fiction? Not every group even adhered to the concept of Race until Europeans introduced it across the globe. Indeed, not every group adhered AFTER they had it inflicted upon them. This is partly because it has no basis in biology but is merely a social construct. It's not something that ALL human societies came up with independantly and, in fact, most of our time on Earth, we've done without it.

This is a carved in stone fact. Don't take my word for it. Delve.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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I don't disagree that Americans brand of slavery took a twist in the populate media. But to say that all types of slavery aren't racially motivated prior to the new World is .... hmmmm

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It's accurate. The concept of "race" didn't even exist until the Renaissance. Tribes aren't analogs for race.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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I am saying that we are no better Joes than any of those slobs as far as knowing what is right and wrong.

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Crap. Many of us are loads better. We have their disgusting example as another signpost of what not to do and where not to go. Your moral relativist pose is another facile dodge and allows you to avoid having to put your feet down on this.

If we- and by we I mean intelligent people who get their history from someplace other than Hollywood distillations– weren't any better there'd be something wrong with us. Humans survive by learning from past mistakes.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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and the cycle of blame continues, absolutely no learning whatsoever.

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"The cycle of blame." Wow.

Well. Never let a few facts get in the way of cartoon dogma.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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No, I meant the 4000 thousand years before that. Why does everyone think History itself began with the American Revolution?

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I don't think that "everyone" does. I don't and never implied otherwise. I'm talking about the U.S. because that's the history FIREFLY supposedly mined for its motifs.

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Originally posted by Redjack:


The continuity of slavery no more connects to what happened here than the history of conquest leads inevitably to German gas chambers. The latter motivations were different in both cases. So different, in fact, as to have created something new.

Hence the shock normal humans feel when comparing the two.

The Price of Knowledge is Knowing.
Audrid Dax

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Originally posted by Drakon:

But I think you are ignoring a very important event. Note the various others are arguing about how the war was NOT about slavery. They are trying to harken back to the founding fathers, and the concepts of individual liberty. Even in the face of government opposition.

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But in making the argument they are, they are recognizing that slavery was a fundamental hypocracy in America's founding.

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That slavery was, and still is, an evil that should be stamped out.

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What was disagreed about at this stage of the game was how exactly to convert the economy of the south into a free system, without doing so much damage that you would end up with rebellion and loss of life that both sides were trying to avoid. (However imperfectly)

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What makes a person, or a system evil is what it does, and what the consequences of those actions are. And in that respect, I think everyone is agreeing that slavery was evil, for the effects it created on the slaves first and foremost, but also in the denial of freedom required by the slave holders to maintain the slave system.

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Most folks, myself included, hate to think that our ancestors died in a less than noble pursuit.

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So fictions about the true causes of the war constantly get floated about.

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But in recognizing the simple fact that they are agreeing with you that slavery was evil, I think is itself a victory.

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Besides which, todays southern rebel ain't all that much like his 19th century forebearers. He may take a more watchful eye toward Washington, and it has been noted that southerns are over represented in the US military.

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Originally posted by rklenseth:
Want to know what human livestock was really like then read a little about Irish History both in Ireland under the English and in America when the Irish fled their homeland.

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That's sad for you. But those people were scum. Get over it. Suck it up like a man (or woman). Look to the modern Germans and how they've come to grips with their ignoble past.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

Pretty broad generalization calling all Southerners who fought in the War scum. Sounds like bigotry to me, or perhaps just revisionism at it's most venomous.

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Perhaps we are not the ones to get over it.

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Originally posted by Redjack:
All Southerners who fought for the South.

Bigotry would be if I met modern day southerners and held them accountable for the actions of their anscestors. I don't.

Holding those anscestors accountable for their own behaviour is not bigotry. It's knowing how to read. And being adecent human being.

No. It's you.

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Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Perhaps prejudiced is a better word than bigoted, though I would say your opinions border on bigoted.

Damning everyone who fought for the South, and labeling them as "scum" when you have no idea why they fought is just plain narrow minded and does more to defeat your arguements than anything I or anyone else could say in response.

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It shows that you are biased and not willing to extend the same courtesy that the rest of us are to those that fought for the North.

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I hold my ancestors "accountable" for nothing but defending their homes and way of life from an armed aggressor that invaded their state.

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Not one of my ancestors owned slaves, so I would laugh if you try to argue that they fought to keep slavery as an institution.

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Originally posted by Redjack:

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Originally posted by Drakon:

But I think you are ignoring a very important event. Note the various others are arguing about how the war was NOT about slavery. They are trying to harken back to the founding fathers, and the concepts of individual liberty. Even in the face of government opposition.

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This is a joke.

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Slavery in the rest of the world is not germain to this discussion and is only invoked to minimize the culpability of those who participaited in it here.

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Remember: No other country in the world has a founding document that asserts the fundamental value of an individual human as an intrinsic condition of existance.

Note to the founders: Don't talk the talk if you're not prepared to get called on it when you don't walk the walk.

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That is just a load of crap. The Union was limiting the expansion of slavery into th new states, effectively bottling the southern economy with an eye to shutting it down.

It would have been perfectly reasonable under the model some of you are presenting for Lincoln to simply let the practice continue as people saw fit locally.

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The slave holders deserved the same fate as Nazi war criminals post WW2. No more. No less. What they got was Andrew Jackson re-establishing the original paradigm as best he could under the circumstances. This gave us another century of Jim Crow and violent suppression of a significant portion of the American populace a la South African Apartheid.

The problem of the former slaveholders would best have been solved with bullets. No. Ropes would do just as well and would have been cheaper.

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That's sad for you. But those people were scum. Get over it. Suck it up like a man (or woman). Look to the modern Germans and how they've come to grips with their ignoble past.

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So fictions about the true causes of the war constantly get floated about.

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Besides which, todays southern rebel ain't all that much like his 19th century forebearers. He may take a more watchful eye toward Washington, and it has been noted that southerns are over represented in the US military.

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Hey, if it walks like a duck...

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Originally posted by Rekka2:
You can't fault someone for trying to defend what was considered the norms for their time, no matter how those norms would be considered in modern light. Study of the past has shown us that secession wasnt even widely supported by the people...you condemn the many for the faults of a few. The real issue in the south was the right for each state to set its own rules...slavery was brought into the spotlight later in the war as a politcal move for support as well as enabling blacks to be enlisted in the North. I'm not saying I support slavery, but you must look at history within its context.

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They damned themselves by joining up. I have nothing to do with that.

I know the actual history. The details. Not the propaganda of either side. I cite the actual history. I draw the obvious objective conclusions. I draw (or refute) analogies so the kids in the back can keep up.

It's not these pearls that keep me from "winning" the argument. There's no debate among people who actually know the material.

The fault is in the local pork.

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The Confederacy was a bankrupt endeavour fom day one. Morally and, it must be said, socio-economically. The instant that new states were proscribed from being able to own slaves, the writing was on the wall.

The words of Davis and Calhoun, to name but two, damn The Confederates forever in the annals of history. Just as Mein Kamf damns Adolf Hitler and his idiot followers. In precisely the same way as a matter of fact.

You can bob and weave all you like but the facts sit there unblemished and uncompromising. Whether you "agree" with them or not. That's what facts are.

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LOL. "Way of Life." "States Rights." "Extend the same courtesy."

What, was there a sale at Euphemisms R Us?

I guess it's no coincidence that the Confederate uniform was grey after all.

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Well. Apparently ignorance is not only bliss but euphoria as well.

Bottom line. They had a choice. Union or Rebs. If they chose Rebs without reading the fine print (which, of course we know they must have unless they were conscripts) they get tarred with the same brush as their fellows.

Sorry if that's agrieving but, you know, not everything is shiny.

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