Was Book at Serenity Valey by palehorse

I mean, other than Joyce, when has Joss given us a parent or life guide figure who was not hiding something

Giles- Ripper and the drugging of Buffy

Wes's dad- Never thought Wes was good enough

Angel's da'- Phys. abusive

Cordy's dad- Tax evasion

Willow's mom- Distant and wanted to burn her at the stake

Xander's 'rents- alchoholics

Spike's mom- Wanted sex with her son once vamped

Watchers in general were warped with own agenda

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 2:07 PM

Also wouldn't it be interesting for Mal and Zoe to find this out at a time when the crew needs to realy be united.

Inarra and Kaylee would just want peace and this would call into question their loyalties.

Mal is fond of his "you're part of my crew" honor code. Good moral exploration would come of this.

Just the monkey wrench our beloved crew would need to F-them up

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 2:43 PM

good to come out just before the end of season

If only.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 3:10 PM

SHINY

Of course, the other clue you didn't mention is his "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not...so where does that put you?" scene where River is 'reading his mind' in Objects in Space. Not sure exactly if this points to a military past or something else, but I definitely agree with the theory that Book was in the monestary to work through some guilt/issues from his past life, and is now trying to make up for that past.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 3:24 PM

CHARLES

One other little interesting tidbit to ponder... in one of the deleted scenes, Simon is learning up on Civil War history, specifically the Battle of Serenity. He gets interrupted by Zoe RIGHT AFTER the speak 'n' say history book gives the name of the General who led the forces at Serenity Valley and eventually overcame the rebel forces. Wouldn't it be so like Joss to throw out a name like that, even if the scene didn't make it in the end, so that it could be referred back to when the time was right and all the viewers could go, "So THAT'S what that meant?"

Just a thought...
Charlie

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 3:39 PM

I'm gratified to see that others are willing to entertain this notion.

I personally feel more right about it than any Blue Sun connection.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 4:05 PM

TRASK43

I think this is probably more likely than the whole blue sun connection. As if the blue sun thing was true book would have to leave once it was exposed. Whereas if the alliance story was true it would ust make for more interesting character developments and stories.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 4:13 PM

KERNELM

Argh. I've seen this theory bandied about forever, with no real evidence for it _at all_. Yes, obviously Book has some kind of military/law enforcement background. Yes, he obviously has powerful ties within the Alliance. But that has no bearing on whether he was at any specific battle. Why would you assume so? It's the worst kind of Victorian big coincidence plotting (cf Jane Eyre).

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 4:16 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Of course, the other clue you didn't mention is his "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not...so where does that put you?" scene where River is 'reading his mind' in Objects in Space. Not sure exactly if this points to a military past or something else, but I definitely agree with the theory that Book was in the monestary to work through some guilt/issues from his past life, and is now trying to make up for that past.

The real question is, who is Book mentally addressing when River scans his thoughts, Jayne or River?

If Jayne, we can assume that book has figured out at least part of what happened at Ariel, perhaps not enough for an open accusation, but enough that he no longer trusts Jayne worth the aforementioned half a hump.

But if the remark is focused on River, that puts a different complexion on things. Exactly what, I'm not sure... It might be ammo for the "Book is monitoring Simon and River for Blue Sun" theorists. Or not.

My personal theory is that Book is associated with the unnamed underground movement that breaks River out of the Academy and then is never heard from again. It would explain why he was (quasi-quote)"looking at ships, not destinations"; he knew "the girl in a box" and Simon had been directed to Serenity, but might not care what the target destination was, as long as he was along for the ride.

This theory isn't contradictory of his being an actual shepherd, (which his actions in "Bushwhacked" support; an alliance mole would have no reason to push for helping survivors on the derelict) or having something in his past to atone for.

"Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you." -- Anon.

RocketJock

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 4:59 PM

KERNELM

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
[BThe real question is, who is Book mentally addressing when River scans his thoughts, Jayne or River?

Why does it have to be either? I'd guess both Book's thought as well as Inara's ("I'm a big girl, just tell me.") are from their past.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 6:23 PM

Quote:
"I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not...so where does that put you?"

Funny we should bring this up, as I just finished watching most of the episodes.

Quite frankly, I feel that Shepherd Book might have been some sort of law enforcement agent. Not a regular cop, or even a detective, maybe something more like a Federal Marshall, FBI agent or perhaps even a spy in the Alliance government.

He obviously has some clout with the Alliance (the Ident Card) and advanced combat training, not to mention an encyclopedic knowledge of police procedure and criminal activities. Don't forget that Early immediately recognized that Book was not a shepherd in OiS. The only way he could know that is if Book were already known to him (i.e. he didn't figure it out from combat prowess or identity scans or anything.)

Whatever ties Book may have to the Alliance (if indeed they exist) I believe are tenuous. I think that Book really did become a shepherd, maybe not out of a great desire to learn the Word, but perhaps to hide away from some trouble with the government.

I also don't believe he was specifically looking for Serenity when he first boarded her on Persephone. As far as we know, the crew hadn't done anything particularly noteworthy up until that point. I believe that Book is running from something. It puts the "I think I'm on the wrong ship" confession in a whole new light if you consider that Book, very desperately, wants to avoid Alliance attention.

Anyway, I was thinking that the quote above belies a certain ruthlessness with which he performed whatever job he held for the Alliance. Perhaps, his "I don't give half a hump if your innocent" attitude changed at some point and he became disenchanted with his employer. Now he's running from, and perhaps trying to make amends for, his past.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 8:20 PM

WRAJAX

Quote:
Originally posted by Adeptus:
Early immediately recognized that Book was not a shepherd in OiS. The only way he could know that is if Book were already known to him (i.e. he didn't figure it out from combat prowess or identity scans or anything.)

Actually, I thought Early had picked up on something of Book's mannerisms, the way he carried himself, walked, etc. It's personal opinion of course, no way of really knowing but that was what I always assumed. =)

My current pet theory is that Book is the relative of someone high in the Alliance ranks. "Estranged brother of the President", etc. A Billy Carter-Roger Clinton sort of thing. A lot of the other theories kind of mesh with this - he was clearly combat trained for something, and definitely could have had high rank in the armed forces based on his connections, and it would give him even more reason to disappear from Alliance radar, and seek peace/forgiveness while also having powerful connections.

Dear Diary, Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk never to be seen again. It was the best day ever

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 9:07 PM

ROCKETJOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by KernelM:
Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
[BThe real question is, who is Book mentally addressing when River scans his thoughts, Jayne or River?

Why does it have to be either? I'd guess both Book's thought as well as Inara's ("I'm a big girl, just tell me.") are from their past.

Hmm. Hadn't thought of that interpretation. I guess the confrontational nature (through both phrasing and Ron Glass' wonderful body language) of River's "reading" of Book made me assume* that it was a current thought, focused on one -- or possibly both -- of the two people physically present in the room with Book.

It does strike me, though, that the two ideas are not contradictory. One can have the same thought more than once, after all.

Thanks for the insight, KernalM.

*Footquote: "When you ASSUME, you make an ASS of U and ME!" -- Felix Ungar

RocketJock

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 2:16 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:
If you look to Tim and Joss's styles, I'm sure that you will find that my idea is not only plausible, but probable

Everything made sense and convinced me until this point. Knowing Joss and Tim, because this is so obvious and logical, I expect this is not what Book is at all. They have a habit of taking our expectations and logical deductions and screwing with them royally.

So, like Geminis the world over, I expect the unexpected.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 2:27 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by RocketJock:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Of course, the other clue you didn't mention is his "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not...so where does that put you?" scene where River is 'reading his mind' in Objects in Space. Not sure exactly if this points to a military past or something else, but I definitely agree with the theory that Book was in the monestary to work through some guilt/issues from his past life, and is now trying to make up for that past.

The real question is, who is Book mentally addressing when River scans his thoughts, Jayne or River?

There is insufficient data to conclude he is speaking to either Jayne or River, or really anyone else we know of. He could have been speaking to himself even.

Gorram Faux

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 4:08 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

The problem is that we simply do not have enough data to do more than speculate at this point.

Personally I lean towards the military connection for Book. I am thinking that he was a high ranking officer and might very well have been present at Serenity Valley, or been part of the mop up force. Whatever part he played in the War, he had a moment where he questioned who and what he was, and then he entered the abbey. Guess whatever it was, it shook him so bad he turned to religion seeking absolution or to atone for his crimes.

I agree w/ Drakon that I would not try to assume where Joss was going w/ Book, because no matter what we think is logical, Joss will surely turn it upside down.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:41 AM

ARRRGHH!

When have you ever seen Aliance police officers.

NEVER!

Individual worlds may have peacekeepers but they are more like Mayberry R.F.D.

The aliance "keeps the peace" via martial law. Soldiers and Cruisers are the repressive force, to some, glue to others, holding the semblance of civilization in place.

He is hiding, in my opinion, from his own guilt.

He is not "on the lam" or desperatly trying to stay under the radar as the use of his ident card would have popped up a red flag to detain him( a warant gets you arrested if the cops stop you for speeding in Va. and we don't have the cortex)

Yes he was looking for a ship as a passenger, but what made him choose Serenity for, 1st transit, then a home is his personal growth and atonement.

If he were an officer in the aliance military, his perspective durring the war as to what kind of person would fight for the independants would have to be skewed in order to allow him to order them slain. He now sees that they were human and is coping with his guilt issues.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:54 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I agree w/ you Palehorse, to some extent.

I don't think he is hiding from anyone, so much as he is looking for something. I think he is looking for absolution from past crimes, and peace.

I do like the spin you put on it about his now seeing those that fought for the Browncoats differently now that he has lived with them and fought beside them, but that could not have led to his decision to enter the priesthood. I am thinking guilt drove him there.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 9:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:
If you look to Tim and Joss's styles, I'm sure that you will find that my idea is not only plausible, but probable

Everything made sense and convinced me until this point. Knowing Joss and Tim, because this is so obvious and logical, I expect this is not what Book is at all. They have a habit of taking our expectations and logical deductions and screwing with them royally.

So, like Geminis the world over, I expect the unexpected.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

Got to say that there is some sense to your babbling, but then again, I AM THE SANE ONE HERE!

Joss drops hints in BTVS season 3 that the bed in Buffy's dreams is for "Little Sister"

In BTVS season 4 "spirit guide" Tara tells Buffy to be home before "DAWN"

The clues have been there for us, but the aura of mystery has been focused on, and I too Hate this phrase, "the girl in the box".

It's like Moe(3 Stooges) moving his hand and twiddling his fingers to get your attention before hi hits you with the hammer you've known was in his other hand the whole time.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I agree w/ you Palehorse, to some extent.

I don't think he is hiding from anyone, so much as he is looking for something. I think he is looking for absolution from past crimes, and peace.

I do like the spin you put on it about his now seeing those that fought for the Browncoats differently now that he has lived with them and fought beside them, but that could not have led to his decision to enter the priesthood. I am thinking guilt drove him there.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

Yes, absolution for ordering his troops to engage the Browncoats at Serenity Valey, therby innitiating the bloodiest slaughter of out numbered, under suplied troops in Aliance history(a true distinction to some but I'm sure a burden to that officer, our beloved Book)

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:12 AM

FORTUNATUS

Quote:
Don't forget that Early immediately recognized that Book was not a shepherd in OiS. The only way he could know that is if Book were already known to him (i.e. he didn't figure it out from combat prowess or identity scans or anything.)

In the commentary for OiS, Joss pretty much says flat out that Early could tell that Book wasn't what he appeared to be because of Early's uncanny insight.

_______________
"Yep. That's a cow fetus."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:14 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Palehorse wrote:

Quote:
Yes, absolution for ordering his troops to engage the Browncoats at Serenity Valey, therby innitiating the bloodiest slaughter of out numbered, under suplied troops in Aliance history(a true distinction to some but I'm sure a burden to that officer, our beloved Book)

Very distinct possibility. No real tangible evidence in the series to this point to validate this theory, but it makes more sense to my line of thinking than anything else.

I am thinking that Book may have been at Serenity Valley, in charge of the Alliance forces, and he got a first hand look at the aftermath of the battle. Perhaps Book even killed Browncoats, saw their faces as they died, knowing they were dying and that they did not stand a chance, but fighting on anyway. Something like that would have to change a man's way of thinking.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Fortunatus:
In the commentary for OiS, Joss pretty much says flat out that Early could tell that Book wasn't what he appeared to be because of Early's uncanny insight.

Ah, well either way, the rest of my evidence stands I believe. I still think that a (probably former) high level law enforcement officer/spy is the best fit to explain Book's knowledge and expertise.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:

ARRRGHH!

When have you ever seen Aliance police officers.

NEVER!

What about Ariel, Trash and The Message?

Quote:
He is not "on the lam" or desperatly trying to stay under the radar as the use of his ident card would have popped up a red flag to detain him
Well, it was a life or death situation. Had he not flashed the Ident Card, he'd have died. Also, if the people he's running from aren't operating in a completely official capacity, there are bound to be many holes in their net.
Quote:
Yes he was looking for a ship as a passenger, but what made him choose Serenity for, 1st transit,
Kaylee. Plus, how many times have we been reminded that there are a bazillion Firefly class ships in the galaxy?
Quote:
then a home is his personal growth and atonement.
The crew's ability to stay on the move. Mal told Simon that he and River would be better off on the move, and Serenity never stops moving. The same would apply to Book.
Quote:
If he were an officer in the aliance military,
It would not answer the question as to how he knows so much about police procedure and the criminal underwold. Neither of these are things you learn in OCS, nor on the battlefield.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 3:20 PM

RKLENSETH

My take on this is that Book is General Richard Wilkins. Notice he came in just as the thing said that. Any good storyteller loves to put symbolism like that into their stories.

I don't think Book is connected wit Blue Sun at all. Note that Book came to Serentity before Simon and River and the reason he came on was because Kaylee talked him into it. I think he would have otherwise passed the ship if she hadn't said anything.

And if Book was connected to Blue Sun then had many of opportunities to turn Simon and River in but never does. It seems to me that Blue Sun really, really wants River back pretty bad so you assume that if Book worked for Blue Sun then he woul have turned them in long ago.

The whole Objects in Space scene where River is reading the minds of the crew as she passes by was sort of reflecting on the character's personalities. So when River reads Book's mind, I see it that Book is talking to himself and about some inner struggle within him. Note that it is never implied at anytime that the rest of the crew knew of Jayne's betrayal on Ariel except Mal and later Simon after River tells him. And I can't see why Book would think River was guilty of anything unless this is River's big secret that is implied in the show and Joss said something about having to do with the movie in his post.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 2:39 AM

THOSE WERE NOT POLICE OFFICERS THEY WERE SOLDIERS.

With the possible exception of the LAPD version of my Mayberry R.F.D. in Trash (rich people, though they have less street crime seem to need more cops)

If Book were on the run or incognito to avoid capture then he would not have been able to get off of Serenity, the crew would have been arrested,and the ship destroyed(exactly what Mal was told would happen if he were harboring the Tam fugitives).

Sure, Kaylee could charm many a man, or woman as a matter of fact, and not just sexually. But in my supposition what pushed him over the edge in the sales pitch would be the naming of Serenity.

I have still seen nothing even as tenuous as the web I'm weaving to support the idea that book is a fugitive, even a non-crime related fugitive.

As to your last point, I want you to picture yourself as General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

As European commander you are responsible for understanding the fullest extent of your power, and in many cases you will use this power. Who does one contact in the French black market to smuggle rifles to the partsan forces resisting the occupation? Hmmm....I know, let me check the compiled intel on organized crime. How does one send in a force to detain one of my code-breakers who has been found to have questionable sexual activities with possible Nazi opperatives and is now being blackmailed? I need to detain them on the sly though as others may also be compromised, and the knowlege of an arrest is intel none the less. Hmmm...I know, let me talk to someone who has done this before.

It's amazing how much a leader of many forces has to learn.

What is more amazing is just how little this is compared to a GREAT leader of many forces.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:40 AM

Well you obviously have your opinion PH, and certainly your reasons for believing it's true. I disagree, but I do admit my limited knowledge might lead me to be wrong.

No power in the 'verse can stop me.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 4:54 AM

All of the theories on all of the boards could be wrong for all we know. It's our honor, and some would say our duty, to be able to express our ideas in an open forum.

Wouldn't it suck to be a Browncoat in China with no access to any discussion groups.

Though...You wouldn't have to look up the meaning of every curse that spills out of Mal's mouth.

Keep it flying!

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:27 AM

Let me clarify the police point for those who may be confused(and I may be one of the fortunate many).

The Aliance military is currently running things on the security front.

This may mean that core worlds don't see troopers wearing their armor as things are more lax. But do not be confused on this point, all worlds are under the thumb of martial law.

Keeping a strong military presence may be the only way to preserve the sham of actual government where the corporations(eg. Blue Sun) actually pull the strings

Those who are loyal to the regime feel no crush and press, but those who would even think to have a different view of the benefit:hazard ratio inherent in a military dictatorship are dealt with swiftly and harshly.

You might be surprised what civil liberties a group of people will surrender in order to be told that they will be safer under a government's protection.

Even the Tam fam were so instilled with unquestioning complacancy that they were deaf to River's and Simon's calls to action.(though once again we are dealing with parents in the Whedonverse and for all we know their particular weak spot could be that they knew what was to happen to River, or paid a debt with her. might have been a good route for the story)

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 6:09 AM

ZEKE023

I hate to be the devil's advocate - but if history is going to be any guideline - it's most likely that Joss has no reason for Book to be "sketchy".

He just is - and later, when it fits into a plot for there to be a reason, he'll write it in.

Think of Jenny Calendar - he're dark past was something that was added in later. This is true of almost all of Joss's characters.

so it could be anything.

Hell - since the movie is going to be about reavers, maybe he had some connection to reavers. :)

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:19 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I do agree w/ PH that the 'verse is under martial law and soldiers seem to be used to police the worlds on the Rim. Could be that with the War of Unification just seven years behind them, the Alliance still feels the need to keep a tight rein on the poplulation, and feels a strong military presence will deter any ideas of independence.

I agree Zeke023 that Joss is notorious for leaving past shadowy w/ his characters for potential plotlines down the road. It could very well be that Book has no real "past" yet, but is merely awaiting a point in the story for Joss to flesh out his character.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:55 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:
Wouldn't it suck to be a Browncoat in China with no access to any discussion groups.

Though...You wouldn't have to look up the meaning of every curse that spills out of Mal's mouth.

Actually, considering how...creatively...the actors pronounce some of the Chinese, I imagine that Chinese-speaking browncoats would have to look a lot of it up as well!

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:43 PM

You know, I just checked out the deleted scenes and the scenes for "Serenity" realy got my juices flowing.

In the original opening Zoe keeps asking Mal what colors(flag) the med ships are flying with the response "Does it matter?".
Once she proposes that there may be a god after all Mal's response is to the efect of "God? Wonder what color he flies."
Could be a back-handed clue or illustration with Book as a sheapherd, or at least posing as one.

Next we have the first of the two scene clip wherein Book asks Simon whether he caught the name of the ship he has boarded.
When Simon assumes the mundane definition of Serenety to be the case Book directs him to brush up on his history if he wants to bond with the crew.
Book, I take it, knew the meaning if not on sight then certainly by the time he set foot on the ship.

The second of the two scene clip, while cool with the name of the general, was most striking in Zoe's recounting of the true horror of the wounded being left for dead for a whole week.
I also dug the line regading making Serenity your home. Talk about classic double entandre(sp?).

I know that I seem to be obsessing on this one subject, and appologize if my somtimes dry and rapidfire way of stating things has generated any ill will out there.

So, until Niska pats a puppy on the head without thinking of ways to hurt it....

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 12:45 PM

What did you say, Shiny?

"nucular"?

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Friday, February 6, 2004 9:03 AM

RKLENSETH

Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:
You know, I just checked out the deleted scenes and the scenes for "Serenity" realy got my juices flowing.

In the original opening Zoe keeps asking Mal what colors(flag) the med ships are flying with the response "Does it matter?".
Once she proposes that there may be a god after all Mal's response is to the efect of "God? Wonder what color he flies."
Could be a back-handed clue or illustration with Book as a sheapherd, or at least posing as one.

Next we have the first of the two scene clip wherein Book asks Simon whether he caught the name of the ship he has boarded.
When Simon assumes the mundane definition of Serenety to be the case Book directs him to brush up on his history if he wants to bond with the crew.
Book, I take it, knew the meaning if not on sight then certainly by the time he set foot on the ship.

The second of the two scene clip, while cool with the name of the general, was most striking in Zoe's recounting of the true horror of the wounded being left for dead for a whole week.
I also dug the line regading making Serenity your home. Talk about classic double entandre(sp?).

I know that I seem to be obsessing on this one subject, and appologize if my somtimes dry and rapidfire way of stating things has generated any ill will out there.

So, until Niska pats a puppy on the head without thinking of ways to hurt it....

I think both you and I are thinking along the same lines.

Oh, and play Cantr II at www.cantr.net.

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 12:56 PM

Here it is, it had been archived.

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 1:22 PM

STATIC

Quote:
Originally posted by palehorse:
Here it is, it had been archived.

Palehorse, I want to mention one thing in regards to your suggestion that there is no distinction between police forces and Alliance military forces.

In "The Train Job", the Sherriff and his deputies are wearing badges. Very distinct badges on their shirts/jackets/vests that are matched by a patch on their sleeve. Yes, yes, I know. . ."Mayberry R.F.D.". . .but stick with me.

The sherriff in "TTJ" says distinctly, "We don't have much use for alliance out here." Certainly not something and Alliance military officer would be LIKELY to say.

In "The Message". . .when the three Federal officers go barging into the post office, the lead agent, the one in the spiffy trenchcoat, flashes a badge. The badge is identical to the one worn by the sherriff. However, on Alliance military vessels, I don't see the same badge being worn by their personell.

I believe the Alliance maintains a Law Enforcement agency as well as a military force.

This is a common method used by governments to thinly disguise 'martial law'.

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"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 2:27 PM