What are your *least* favorite Firefly moments? by Okkay

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

What are your *least* favorite Firefly moments?

POSTED BY: OKKAY
UPDATED: Saturday, February 14, 2004 06:39
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VIEWED: 22325
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Sunday, February 1, 2004 9:24 AM

For me, one of my least favourite moments is at the end of Our Mrs. Reynolds, when Mal strikes Saffron when he's straddling her.

I know she tried to kill them all, etc. But to me, there was something really disturbing about him hitting her in a non- self-defense situation.

And also, after watching the entire series, perhaps out of character for him. But maybe that was the point. Still didn't care for it much though.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 9:53 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Samus:
For me, one of my least favourite moments is at the end of Our Mrs. Reynolds, when Mal strikes Saffron when he's straddling her.

I think of it like this: Saffron's got Mal's shuttle, and Mal doesn't want her trying to kill him while he's retrieving said shuttle. So he puts her off her guard with a personal question and clocks her to knock her out. It's probably the best thing he could do in the situation.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 10:06 AM

SAMUS

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
It's probably the best thing he could do in the situation.

I don't necessarily disagree - two episodes have shown that Saffron is dangerous & not to be trusted.

But it's just like someone else said above re: Early/Kaylee and the threatened rape - it just pushes my buttons.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 11:40 AM

LTNOWIS

Quote:
I know she tried to kill them all, etc. But to me, there was something really disturbing about him hitting her in a non- self-defense situation.

But when Mal shoves Crow into the engine, that was pure hilarity.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 11:59 AM

LUNATIKAT

Dear Saint Jayne,
Yeah, how could that little whore go on betraying the Heart of Gold for him after he humiliates her publicly like that? I'm assuming he has her perform fellatio on him right there and then, that's certainly what we're meant to think is possible. In fact, her whole motivation is a mystery, cause the guy she's moling for is such an obvious jerk and asshole, how can she trust him? But, as others have posted, there are more than a few problems with this episode. Not the least of which was that even Joss Whedon couldn't overcome the television inertia that demanded if somebody other than the hero's love interest has a meaningful sexual encounter with the hero, then she must die. Unless she's a recurring character and the show is more soap opera than anything else. The minute it was obvious Mal was going to bed her, I knew she was going to die, but because it was Joss, I kept my fingers crossed. Some conventions are too strong to be broken, I guess

.

lunatikat - it's a cow, see, it's upside down

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:08 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Amanda4u:
Ok, you guys, did any of you watch those epidodes with the commentary on? With the pilot episode, Inara bathing was artistic.

With the OiS Kallie rape thing, it was Early's intimidation of Kallie, so that she wouldn't get in his way.

Gorramit, I should have read to the end of the thread before beginning my replies - you covered all my points far too well.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:22 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by slayer730:
Amanda4U, I understand where you are coming from. I understand that Early was trying to intimidate Kaylee and keep her quiet. It just seems like a completely over the top and unnecessary way to do it. He had a gun, it would have been enough to scare the go se out of Kaylee(especially since we've seen how "adept" she is at gunplay).

That for me was one of the best written episodes of TV I have seen in a while, in terms of what it said in the time it had.

Some people have been posting about Early's threat to Kaylee being about getting a rise from the viewers (I put that deliberately mildly), but that's not really the case.

Early's threat is meant to get a response from Kaylee. As JW says in the commentary, he is the epitome of evil. Its like a malevolent Night Before Christmas in some ways - Evil visiting Firefly.

Early could have killed Kaylee to make sure she didn't run off or warn anyone, but in part that wasn't his nature (not mercy, but the fact that he did things clean - just what he would be paid for, at least in his mind). His threat had to be so terrifying, so believable, that it would cause a resourceful and courageous young woman to forget that she could just find a tool and get away. Of course, the fact that *he* was there in the first place pretty much did the majority of the job.

The threat wasn't gratuitous or unecessary, it made total sense in the context. Obviously, the effect of the scene is to cause emotion in the viewer, but that's the strength of the writing (and acting).

As an example of the reverse, and hence my least favourite scene - its the deleted scene from Serenity where Simon reads up on the Battle of Serenity - it smacks of info-dump and does not makes sense from the character. Then again, given that may have been part of the reason it was cut, I can't really complain.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:32 PM

SNEAKER98

Well, I have a few responses to be made.

Regarding Early threatening to rape Kaylee... well, do you really think that bounty hunters are awesome people? Early was one of the best bounty hunters I've ever seen, he was BELIEVABLE. He must've spent weeks alone on his ship, all in order to hunt down people who break the law. This isn't the job for a normal person. He KNOWS how to keep people out of his way. We can all see he isn't normal ;)

About the editting in the opening scene, I liked it. I too thought it was a glitch at first, but it grew on me. Makes the show stand out more ;)

Okay, on to the few things that I didn't like. 1) A few of the voice overs I can hear (eg: Mal saying "The woods are the only place I can see a clear path". It sticks out to me every time)
2) When Zoe does that little somersault, pulls out her dual pistols, and kills someone in "War Stories". I just never liked that part...

One part some people might not like it the "Three buttons" that Wash is always hitting. For me, it just gives me something to look out for ;) *click click click* ah HA! lol :)

"I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."
-Malcolm Reynolds

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 12:40 PM

SLAYER730

Well, I'm sorry I brought the Early/Kaylee thing up...if I knew people were going to so vehemently defend its validity, I wouldn't have offered my opinion. I'm not trying to convince anyone that it was the worst moment, just that it was my least favorite.

I tend to agree with Caitlyn though - it's an sensitive issue with me which is why I felt it was too far. I felt the same way with the bathroom scene between Buffy and Spike.

I will never be comfortable with the threat or the act of rape onscreen and that's why I chose it as MY least favorite moment. It may have its merit, but it was it was the least favorite and most uncomfortable moment for me.

***Never judge a book by its movie***

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 1:13 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by slayer730:
Well, I'm sorry I brought the Early/Kaylee thing up...if I knew people were going to so vehemently defend its validity, I wouldn't have offered my opinion.

Valid opinion - not much point in having forums unless people are going to offer them.

Quote:

I tend to agree with Caitlyn though - it's an sensitive issue with me which is why I felt it was too far. I felt the same way with the bathroom scene between Buffy and Spike.

(editted for my choice of words)

I agree with that scene - and partly with me that's to do with the fact that I didn't "want" the character to do that. Whether it was valid within the arc of Spike is open to debate. IMO it was a misstep, and does leave me a little uncomfortable about the character as a whole.

Quote:

I will never be comfortable with the threat or the act of rape onscreen and that's why I chose it as MY least favorite moment. It may have its merit, but it was it was the least favorite and most uncomfortable moment for me.

Fair point - certainly my response was on the basis of the scene's validity and purpose - the general basis of the discussion has been on "bad" scenes, but yours is an interesting and valid variation.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 3:00 PM

SLAYER730

I know the basis of discussion was on "bad" scenes, but the topic thread was "Your least favorite Firefly moment".

Still, I appreciate your understanding, Misguided.

***Never judge a book by its movie***

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 5:09 PM

ARCPLAYER

Kaylee getting shot.
Book getting shot.
Good stories both. I just don't like seeing the crew near death.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 6:53 PM

WOOBABY

Kaylee being threatened by Early is the most painful scene. Rape is so horrific and Kaylee is the character I most relate too. It’s so gut-wrenching to watch, but Jewel Staite/Summer Glau’s acting and a happy ending, keep the episode one of my favorites.

My least favorite scene however would be most of Heart of Gold!

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 7:15 PM

TMURRIE

I agree, the one with Early being all disgusting is just....disturbing. What's with Joss and having his characters being raped...or tortured and such? Ah well, Firefly is awesome anyways.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 7:28 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Bourne wrote:
Saturday, January 31, 2004 20:23

Quote:
You shoot DESERTERS. Usually HANG mutineers :)

You're right. From the yardarm when it's expedient.

Quote:
In War Stories, when the crew is mounting a rescue of the Captain, Gina/Zoe breaks cover, does a grade-school gym-class somersault, then leisurely double-draws and guns down a henchman WHO'S HAD A BEAD ON HER THE WHOLE TIME. ARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!

That is probably their worst scene. Especially if you've ever watched Cleopatra 2525 and have seen the type of atheletic moves Gina is capbable of pulling off.

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 8:10 PM

ANKHAGOGO

There is no way in hell that Mal would collude with Crazy Girl after she sent his crew to almost certain death in OMR....In OMR Saffron comes across as something of a genius, but she would have to be so, so very stupid to think that Mal would go in with her on that deal.

I think that Saffron's problem there was the fact that even though she thinks that everyone plays everyone, she also thinks that she herself is too clever & too aware to be played.

Saffron told Mal that he was the most gullible person she'd ever marked, which is a pretty normal attitude of a con person toward a mark. It says to me that she didn't think he had a) the brains, and b)the sneaky turn of mind to double-cross her. If she'd bothered to think for a moment, she'd remember that Mal & Co had beaten her at her own game at least three times before Trash -- Inara realized Saffron was playing them, Mal figured out how to disable the net, they tracked her to that cabin with apparently very little trouble.
I honestly think that it never occurred to Saffron that a entire ship's crew could play her without her catching on -- because she always seems to think she's the smartest, toughest one in the room, the one who's in control. She was still thinking of them as marks to be screwed with.

I'll tell you one thing that bothers me, though, about Trash -- why, oh why, didn't Mal just leave her in the house for the Feds to snatch? I'd've high-tailed it out of there, leaving her with her ex the second I'd realized that man had called the Feds -- though it may be possible I'm a little more vindictive than Mal.

"But she was naked! And all...articulate!"

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Sunday, February 1, 2004 8:45 PM

NUR

Quote:
Originally posted by Saint Jayne:
[As a side point, I was also moved to discomfort by the "on your knees" scene in Heart of Gold but nobody brings that up.

Going to agree with you on this one. It makes me squirm in my seat everytime I see it.

Also this may just be me nitpicking, but in HoG, Mal and Nandi making love, sweat rolling down their bodies. Ok, we've got fully clothed Wash and Zoe going about their business in the hot sun (as well as completely randomly talking about a baby that is never brought up again) and everyone else looking fresh as a peach. But in the night, when desert temperatures get verylow we have 2 naked people practically dripping. Now there could be explanations but a)they wern't exactly vigorous and b) if they had heaters turned on then why were they cool as cucumbers while drinking? I'm sure that it was just supposed to add to the scene, but it just looked so unnatural and out of place that it threw me.

That being said, I loved everything else from HoG and The Message is probably my least favourite episode due to the crappy plot.

Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
-William Blake

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Monday, February 2, 2004 3:53 AM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by Nur:
(as well as completely randomly talking about a baby that is never brought up again)

I'm sure it would have been brought up again - but there were only two episodes after this!

Anyways, I'm glad to see I'm not the onlyone who hated HoG. I, too, thought it uncharactoristic of Mal to take the job initially. One thing I really like about him is how he cares so much for his crew, and so little for anyone else. This whole episode just seemed...wrong.

And yeah, as someone mentioned - in the future, there's no such thing as locks for your vehicles? Pretty dumb.

Modern hovercraft do, I beleive, roughly 55MPH at top speed, perhaps slightly slower. Horses do maybe 35.

One cool part - er, the cool part - of HoG is when Inara is crying in the corner. Well, it's not cool...but, when she'd talked to Mal, I was a bit upset that she wasn't a bit upset. With seeing her cry came the realization of just how much she cares for Mal.
-Steve

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Monday, February 2, 2004 11:35 AM

GWEILO

Quote:
Originally posted by BarneyT:
Anyway, back to the point - my least favourite moment is the end of the Heart of Gold where Nandi is shot. I know there had to be a reason why she wasn't around to finish her conversation with Mal about Inara's feelings and all that - but this was pure adventure serial cliche, and it just annoys me!

Sorry to be jumping into the discussion so late. Only registered yesterday.

I couldn´t agree more with BarneyT. There was no reason for killing her. She was no threat. If there´s something I respect Whedon for it´s his originallity. This moment was not his best work.

Even more annoying was the dripping-in-sweat-while-making-love scene, in that same episode. It didn´t make sence to me. It was filmed like as if this was an act between two people deeply in love - even though it was clearly meant to be just sex. Unnessesary to include that scene I think. Mal got some and Inara got hurt. We got it already.

(Btw, what a find Morena was as Inara! That scene in "Our mrs Reynolds" when she thinks Mal is dead and rushes down the ladder... Wow! You can feel her heartbreak and pain.)

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Monday, February 2, 2004 12:11 PM

SWITCHY

This is nit-picky I know but in "Ariel" a great episode, I have that I don't quite believe it feeling when Wash and Kaylee find and make flight-worthy an ambulance in a few hours/days. I always feel like it's too easy. Not important really but that would be one of mine.

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Monday, February 2, 2004 12:45 PM

KASUO

Trash
- Serenity hovering underneath the island estate. You'd think security would notice something like that.

Heart of Gold
- Most people all ready have voiced/written what was wrong with this ep. I'll just add that one of my friends called the show, "The A-Team" after watching this ep.

The Message
- it seemed a bit odd how after Mal cuts off Womack from the comm, everybody sits in the lounge and have a nice long talk. I mean, it's not like Womack's ship just left and I doubt Wash could keep Womack distracted that long.

________
"Let's moon 'em!"

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Monday, February 2, 2004 12:47 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by switchy:
This is nit-picky I know but in "Ariel" a great episode, I have that I don't quite believe it feeling when Wash and Kaylee find and make flight-worthy an ambulance in a few hours/days. I always feel like it's too easy. Not important really but that would be one of mine.

I expected Mal to light up a cigar and say "I love it when a plan comes together".

Just thought - hats. I just don't like some of the hats. Its a failing in my character I suppose.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 3:44 AM

MILORADELL

In the Train Job, when Mal says

Quote:
he's my hero

about Simon. I hate that! I just want to reach into the tv and slap Mal!

It just really irks me, and so does not read with the rest of Mal's character. And that ridiculous little voice! I know that Joss and company and been handed the dictate to make Mal funnier, but really - this particular line just doesn't do it. So that's my absolutely most hated moment in all of Firefly.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 5:19 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I see your point per your comments on 'The Message'. However, as mentioned by others, Mal is the Capt,( or in Tracy's case, Sarge ) and when he says jump.... Also, having Mal not reveal the plan gave Tracy an opportunity to show his true colors....calling Mal and Zoe 'chumps' or what ever..that he had played them for being so gullible. In the end, however, it was Mal and Zoe who showed THEIR true colors by carrying Tracy home.

And how ironic that it was Mal who was carrying that bullet w/ Tracy's name on it..so long after the war had ended.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 6:26 AM

GTHING

My least favorite moment has to be when the Feds arrive in "Bushwhacked". That created some plot problems. Most notably, I have a hard time believing they would really let Mal go free after he kills the hostile.

If the Feds had not stumbled in that situation, the rest of the episode would have been about our heroes trying to get away from the Reavers that are coming back for them. I seriously think "Bushwhacked" would have been something truly great had that been the case.

Excerpt from My Genre Geek Resume:
~huge Odyssey 5 fan (despite its cancellation)
~dangerously obsessed with BtVS and Angel
~former Andromeda fan

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 6:40 AM

HKCAVALIER

I just had to reply because I just rewatched that episode and put down the "He's my hero" moment as my favorite fireflygasm. I love that in tv land such a thing is totally "out of character," (can you imagine William Riker using a funny voice--would you want to?), but people in the real world do that all, all, all the time. I thought it encapsulated Mal's feelings about Simon beautifully and was very consistant with Mal's infamous practical joke about Kaylee's death. Simon just brings out the prankster in Mal. We can all appreciate how decent and noble Mal is, but I like that he is also juvanile and every now and then goofy.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 3:54 PM

WILDHEAVENFARM

The moment that sticks in my brain as irksome is in "Trash" when WhatsHisFace catches Mal and Saffron/Yolanda, is overjoyed, and offers Mal a reward. Had I been him, I would have taken the reward and left the two of them in peace. The pay-off would have been less, but so would the risk.

Now, I may come back later and curse aloud another moment, as my dvd player has yet to allow me to watch "Heart of Gold" and it seems to have raised some ire.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Tuesday, February 3, 2004 3:56 PM

WILDHEAVENFARM

Oh sure, haven't you ever seen Junkyard Wars?

Quote:
Originally posted by switchy:
This is nit-picky I know but in "Ariel" a great episode, I have that I don't quite believe it feeling when Wash and Kaylee find and make flight-worthy an ambulance in a few hours/days. I always feel like it's too easy. B]

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:40 AM

DRAKON

Quote:
Originally posted by GThing:
My least favorite moment has to be when the Feds arrive in "Bushwhacked". That created some plot problems. Most notably, I have a hard time believing they would really let Mal go free after he kills the hostile.

It would not be civilized to punish a man for just saving your life.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 5:31 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Drakon:
Quote:
Originally posted by GThing:
My least favorite moment has to be when the Feds arrive in "Bushwhacked". That created some plot problems. Most notably, I have a hard time believing they would really let Mal go free after he kills the hostile.

It would not be civilized to punish a man for just saving your life.

Exactly. They let Mal go because he had saved the life of the Alliance commander.

Of course, the Alliance commander took the cargo that Mal and our heroes liberated from the derelict ship.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 6:19 AM

MELEAUX

My least favoite part of FF?
There is only one but it sticks out preety badly. In the pilot when Mal tells Simon that Kaylee is dead and the next scene shows the rest of the crew laughing hysterically. It wouldn't go down like that. It was too mean spirited a "joke"for souls like Wash and Zoe to get so giggly about. I have never felt comfortable with that

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 7:14 AM

OKKAY

Quote:
Originally posted by WildHeavenFarm:
The moment that sticks in my brain as irksome is in "Trash" when WhatsHisFace catches Mal and Saffron/Yolanda, is overjoyed, and offers Mal a reward. Had I been him, I would have taken the reward and left the two of them in peace. The pay-off would have been less, but so would the risk.

Now, I may come back later and curse aloud another moment, as my dvd player has yet to allow me to watch "Heart of Gold" and it seems to have raised some ire.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

I think you're underestimating the difference in values of the two payoffs. The Lassiter was a priceless artifact, worth millions, while the reward would have been maybe a couple thousand dollars? I'm guessing at those values since I don't know how money works there, but the difference was probably something like a-thousand-fold. Plus his whole crew helped out on the heist, and they wouldn't have been happy doing all that for just pocket change. Besides, I don't think Haymer was planning on giving him the money, he called the police right when he saw them.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 8:08 AM

HJERMSTED

Quote:
The only thing that bugs me is the use of present day weapons. 500 years in the future and they still use .45's? I wouldn't think that it would have cost too much to fancify the weapons like they did with Mals.

Think of it this way... there are guns EVERYWHERE in the here and now. Yet some of the greatest genocide of the last century took place in Africa and was perpetuated with the machete of all things.

It's a trickle down world. Old weapons, unfortunately, don't magically disappear when a new one comes along. Some become collector's items. Some get used to survive and are handed down for the newer fancier weapons are unaffordable. It's all part of accepting that (in Firefly's view) a class system with more have-nots than haves could very easily exist 500 years in the future.

The only episode I have trouble with (actually just parts of it) is 'Safe'. I found the actors playing the nurse and the 'mayor' in the town of hill zealots to be a little wooden in their acting. Nothing takes me out of the moment like bad acting. You have to use exceptional actors to pull of zealotry because they have to forget how to be smart while playing such ignorant characters. Some actors have trouble with this subtle nuance.

Other than that I'm pretty happy with the show and didn't notice or wasn't bothered by most of the things detailed in this thread.

That said..

I am upset that we aren't presently enjoying February sweeps editions of Firefly's second season.

I am upset because I do not know what the inside of a Reaver ship looks like (and how these lawless loonies have enough structure to keep a space ship going).

I am upset that I didn't get to see Mal's first face-to-face encounter with the Blue Hands and see how he escapes that situation.

I am bummed I haven't witnessed the further redemption of Jayne nor have I learned more about Book's past.

It upsets me that I know not more about the enigmatic River who is possibly the toughest and most dangerous member of the crew.

I doubt all of this will be addressed in a two hour movie, but I am hopeful!

mattro

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 10:06 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
My least favoite part of FF?
There is only one but it sticks out preety badly. In the pilot when Mal tells Simon that Kaylee is dead and the next scene shows the rest of the crew laughing hysterically. It wouldn't go down like that. It was too mean spirited a "joke"for souls like Wash and Zoe to get so giggly about. I have never felt comfortable with that.

Actually, I was shocked the first time I saw the show and Mal told Simon Kaylee was dead. I thought to myself "Wow. That was a fast character death, even for Joss". Then when we see Mal and group laughing, I could not help but laugh.

I guess this was an example of "screw w/ the new guy". I think every group in one shape or form has played pranks on the newest member. I think Mal did this as well to put a scare into Simon. In groups as tight knit as the crew of Serenity I am sure they do not find the joke disturbing at all.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:05 AM

ARAWAEN

There are some easy to understand reasons for the different historical firearms.

If you knew you were going to be a firefight and were offered a winchester, an M-16 and whatever plasma rifle arnold requests in the first terminator movie, you might think the plasma rifle is the best choice. But consider: 1) Where are you going to get ammo/power cells for it? 2) How are you going to get it repaired if it breaks? Colonists are going to want a weapon that can be repaired and 'reloaded' with local technology. Depending upon the technological development you will have different weapons available on different worlds. People that travel between them will probably want a range so that no matter what world they are on they will have weapons that can be fixed and ammunition be purchased (or manufactured) there.

The hi-tech alliance weapons also have severe limitations. Seems like they don't kill, nor do they open doors

. I assume that they need hi-tech gear to repair as well.

I also think, given the nature of the alliance, that ownership of most weapons is illegal or highly restricted. If there are bans on manufacture of civilian or lethal firearms, there will be a good black market trade in older weapons.

I separate least favorite as in disturbing from least favorite as in bad quality. My least favorite disturbing moment is Jubal's threat to Kaylee. Not because I think it was over the top, unecessary or anything, but because I like Kaylee's character and her innocence. Jubal's comment is disturbing, though in character.

My least favorite moment in terms of badness is... I guess I haven't made my mind up on that one.

Arawaen

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 11:39 AM

SAINT JAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by meleaux:
My least favoite part of FF?
There is only one but it sticks out preety badly. In the pilot when Mal tells Simon that Kaylee is dead and the next scene shows the rest of the crew laughing hysterically. It wouldn't go down like that. It was too mean spirited a "joke"for souls like Wash and Zoe to get so giggly about. I have never felt comfortable with that.

You feel about Wash very differently than I do. I saw Serenity as a character-building episode, so I expect Wash to act like this. Later on Jayne says, "Why don't we shoot her first?" and Wash replies, "It is her turn".

Maybe this mindset helps: At this point in the story, Simon is the heartless bastard that nearly let Kaylee die. He is very worthy of some mean-spirited ribbing.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:12 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL

Great thread. Love that responses are divided between "worst moment = bad writing" or "worst moment = scene that upset me," both valid takes on the question. My thoughts on much of what's been said:

Fortunatus' plot point about Our Mrs. R is a good one -- if Saffron sent the ship, her colleagues should've known it was worth frying.

On the Inara bathing scene ... I'll take what I can get of that and be happy with it.

On Jubal's threat to Kaylee: Oh, it was SO creepy, and this show had a history of sudden violence (or threat of, thankfully, here) that would shock me, make me say, "They don't DO that on TV." I accept this scene on that ground, and the scene's effectiveness and story logic were best expressed above by Ariya.

Also, it establishes Jubal as not just a brilliant bounty hunter, but a demented and wicked man.

I'm glad, as a fan, that Mal didn't let Jayne get sucked outta that airlock, but it would've been a better ep if he had. I loved the show for making me think, with its sudden bursts of real, cold violence, that Jayne's death was a very real possibility, not just fake TV drama.

I accepted Mal's sick "Kaylee's Dead" joke as the work of someone who has seen a lot of war, death and evil, and who has been affected by it. Soldiers, paramedics, firefighters, even news reporters can be stunningly cavalier about issues of death and worse, because they're numbed to them, or because to feel it all would just overwhelm them.

"Bang."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:14 PM

SPIKESPIEGEL

To me, the biggest issue on this thread is Mal keeping secrets from Tracey (most interesting was the Jubal/Kaylee stuff). Mal does this kinda thing other times on the show. I fully agree with the general lines of reasoning defending (he's the gorram captain!) or explaining (he's so internalized!) why he does it, but there's another issue: It's a writing device.

The writers here created a bigger, more dramatic problem when, as some posters have suggested, anyone who cared about having no one on his crew getting shot would've tried to talk Tracey down by sharing the plan, if he had one, or by lying, sweet-talking, whatever. Then punch him out when he lowers the gun.

Writers use this device because they need something to propel the plot. Sometimes, it fits the story perfectly. Other times, you can see that it's a lame excuse, illogical, a crutch to keep the story moving forward. Might be worth debating which is the case in this story. Me, while I FULLY see everyone's reasoning for Mal's behavior, I think it was a case of the writers being kinda lazy, when a better solution was called for, and it qualifies as my least-fave moment.

Only barely -- I don't have THAT big a problem with the scene, but something's gotta be worst. And Nandi's death comes close, as another case of "Oh, the plot demanded this, it's the easy resolution to the brief Mal/Nandi/Inara triangle.

When I first watched "Heart of Gold," I actually felt disloyal for not liking it very much, for all the reasons y'all have given above.

Anyone notice how the worst moments/eps of this show are better than the best on most others?

"Bang."

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:25 PM

OKKAY

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
To me, the biggest issue on this thread is Mal keeping secrets from Tracey (most interesting was the Jubal/Kaylee stuff). Mal does this kinda thing other times on the show. I fully agree with the general lines of reasoning defending (he's the gorram captain!) or explaining (he's so internalized!) why he does it, but there's another issue: It's a writing device.

The writers here created a bigger, more dramatic problem when, as some posters have suggested, anyone who cared about having no one on his crew getting shot would've tried to talk Tracey down by sharing the plan, if he had one, or by lying, sweet-talking, whatever. Then punch him out when he lowers the gun.

Writers use this device because they need something to propel the plot. Sometimes, it fits the story perfectly. Other times, you can see that it's a lame excuse, illogical, a crutch to keep the story moving forward. Might be worth debating which is the case in this story. Me, while I FULLY see everyone's reasoning for Mal's behavior, I think it was a case of the writers being kinda lazy, when a better solution was called for, and it qualifies as my least-fave moment.

Only barely -- I don't have THAT big a problem with the scene, but something's gotta be worst. And Nandi's death comes close, as another case of "Oh, the plot demanded this, it's the easy resolution to the brief Mal/Nandi/Inara triangle.

When I first watched "Heart of Gold," I actually felt disloyal for not liking it very much, for all the reasons y'all have given above.

Anyone notice how the worst moments/eps of this show are better than the best on most others?

"Bang."

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on this topic, what I was trying to say although I didn't say it very well. Yes, there can be justifications for why Mal did what he did, but to me, it just felt like a contrived conflict used only to further the plot.

And I agree that the worst moments on this show are better than the best on most others. None of these "least favorite moments" in any way diminishes my respect and utter fascination for everything they've done on this show.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 12:28 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
I'll tell you one thing that bothers me, though, about Trash -- why, oh why, didn't Mal just leave her in the house for the Feds to snatch?

Because she hadn't betrayed him/them at that point. "Man of honor in a den of thieves", remember?

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 6:18 PM

STEVE580

Quote:
Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
Anyone notice how the worst moments/eps of this show are better than the best on most others?

That was exctly my reaction after seeing this ep for the first time. I told my friends, "For a Firefly episode, it was a 3. For a television episode, it was a 10."
-Steve

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 7:38 PM

EBONEZER

The only scene that really bugged me was at the end of the message. Im not even going to coment on tracyes death and all that because it has been done to death (forgive the pun).

Tracy is laying there dieing and the three "feds" come on the ship. The crew has guns on them and the Book and Mal explain why they arn't feds, and why they should leave before they get shot. And so the leave. It seems to me like the leader fed is a pretty smart guy, who would know that he was outnumberd by traceys war buddies . Seems to me like he would have demanded that they bring tracys body out to him (cuz we can assume he still thinks tracy is dead), and not have the rug pulled from under his feet.

The other thing i just thought of is that how can they mangae to slip a BODY through the mail, but not s few little internal oragans. Why do they need a carrier?

"Go back inside or i will blow another crater in this tiny moon"

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Wednesday, February 4, 2004 8:21 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by ebonezer:
The other thing i just thought of is that how can they mangae to slip a BODY through the mail, but not s few little internal oragans. Why do they need a carrier?

This question is asked and answered in the show as I recall. Simon says they don't have the technology to store them yet, so they use living bodies to stablize the engineered organs. Tracey isn't just storing them, he's an "incubator." Or something.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 5:07 AM

EBONEZER

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Quote:
Originally posted by ebonezer:
The other thing i just thought of is that how can they mangae to slip a BODY through the mail, but not s few little internal oragans. Why do they need a carrier?

This question is asked and answered in the show as I recall. Simon says they don't have the technology to store them yet, so they use living bodies to stablize the engineered organs. Tracey isn't just storing them, he's an "incubator." Or something.

.

so how do tracys organs get ahead of him to get back inside him? Tracy needs to learn to think these things through...

"Go back inside or i will blow another crater in this tiny moon"

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:16 AM

ARAWAEN

I am definitely not disagreeing with people that the Firefly gang didn't handle Tracey as well as they might have, but I do think that we are letting Tracey off a little easy.

1) Tracey is a thief. (True, not unlike the crew of Serenity).
2) Tracey is a murderer (True, possibly in self-defense and our crew has killed their fair share). But he was willing to shoot Wash which wasn't exactly a self-defense situation.
3) Tracey didn't ask for help, he dumped his problems on Mal and Zoe (and by default the whole crew of Serenity).
4) He was willing to turn on the Captain and Zoe, hold Kaylee hostage and risk the lives of the everyone on Serenity for his own safety.

Mal wasn't overly thrilled with Simon dumping his problems (inadvertantly) onto his crew in the pilot and Tracey did it consciously.

While Tracey is a tragic figure, he is not really a 'good guy'.

Arawaen

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 7:47 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by ebonezer:
so how do tracys organs get ahead of him to get back inside him? Tracy needs to learn to think these things through...

I think in the original script, there was more explanation, along the lines of:

MAL(?): Why did you believe they would put your innards back when you got there?

TRACY: It's not easy to find people willing to do this job; they wanted to be able to use me on multiple runs -- this was already my third.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:39 AM

AERRIN

Quote:
The only episode I have trouble with (actually just parts of it) is 'Safe'. I found the actors playing the nurse and the 'mayor' in the town of hill zealots to be a little wooden in their acting. Nothing takes me out of the moment like bad acting. You have to use exceptional actors to pull of zealotry because they have to forget how to be smart while playing such ignorant characters. Some actors have trouble with this subtle nuance.

YES! I have trouble even watching those bits, because these actors (particularly the actress who cries 'witch!') just annoy the heck out of me. I think she's stiff, uninteresting, and unbelieveable. I don't buy her as the caring nurse, and I /surely/ don't buy her transformation in that one moment from 'it's a miracle' to 'let's quote scripture and kill her!'

I cannot stand it. That actress rubs me a million wrong ways in that role.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 8:39 AM

AERRIN

Mutter. Double post.

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 2:00 PM

EBONEZER

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by ebonezer:
so how do tracys organs get ahead of him to get back inside him? Tracy needs to learn to think these things through...

I think in the original script, there was more explanation, along the lines of:

MAL(?): Why did you believe they would put your innards back when you got there?

TRACY: It's not easy to find people willing to do this job; they wanted to be able to use me on multiple runs -- this was already my third.

Still don't get it...how come they have the technology to transport real organs but not "fake" ones. If the fake ones are good enough to work (albeit more rapidly and strangly then normals ones), why can't they be transported? And if it's a question of legality (i've alrady mentioned this, sorry just trying to tie it all together)Tracy managed to ship HIMSELF, a large body, through the mail with out anybody noticing (not the "real" alaince anyway), so why couldn't they ship a few organs? On that note, if they can't go through the mail, why couldn't they get a "private shipping company" (ie, someone like mal and crew) to smuggle them frome point A to point B.

"Go back inside or i will blow another crater in this tiny moon"

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Thursday, February 5, 2004 3:25 PM

WILDHEAVENFARM

An item is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If no buyer could be found, the Lasiter wasn't worth any more than the metal is was made of. I was just saying I would have jumped off the high risk-high payoff plan in favor of the low risk-low payoff plan, since Saffron was involved and things were likely to blow up in their faces at any moment anyhow. And I think he would have given Mal the money, as someone too beneath him to bother paying much attention to. Mal would just need to beat feet is all.

Quote:
Originally posted by Okkay:
I think you're underestimating the difference in values of the two payoffs. The Lassiter was a priceless artifact, worth millions, while the reward would have been maybe a couple thousand dollars? I'm guessing at those values since I don't know how money works there, but the difference was probably something like a-thousand-fold. Plus his whole crew helped out on the heist, and they wouldn't have been happy doing all that for just pocket change. Besides, I don't think Haymer was planning on giving him the money, he called the police right when he saw them.

Mary
Always a beast, never a burden.

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