Mal kissin' the cross... by Spookyjesus

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Mal kissin' the cross...

POSTED BY: SPOOKYJESUS
UPDATED: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:49
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VIEWED: 6718
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Sunday, February 8, 2004 1:36 AM

During the Serenity valley battle Mal pulls a cross out from under his shirt and kisses it - is it Buffy's classic cross? If so was Joss maybe trying to bless Firefly with a little of that success?

Or it could just be that he was trying to show that there's still God in the future (a prelude to Book if you like).

I just think it looks like Buffy's silver one Angle gave her - I don't know, whatta you guys think?

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Sunday, February 8, 2004 2:43 AM

GEORDIESTEVE2003

Er, I think this was not a buffy cross, just a normal one, and it was necessary to show how devout a Christian Mal was and how much he believed in God, also perhaps a small nod to the character of Jackson from Saving Private Ryan, of course which Nathan Fillion starred in, as the other Private Ryan. It was also necessary to show his total loss of faith when all his world collapsed, and how against Book and his religion he is, after the war. Such as in Serenity when Book offers to say grace and Mal says he doesn't mind as long as he doesn't say it out loud. I think this one is just what it appears to be, no huge deep hidden meaning, a tool to show the transition of the man, from the Sarge with his stories into Captain Reynolds.

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Sunday, February 8, 2004 9:31 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Oh I agree - it's just something that whenever i see it I think - is that?

Y'know, that kind of buzz.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 2:12 AM

URIAH

It's just the first step in the redemptive arc for Mal. He has lost faith, in men, in God, and in some ways in himself. He is not against Book's faith, he's just afraid of it because it reminds him that there was a time when he shared it and while he tries to keep it in check, he is a man who, deep down, believes in ultimate justice, honor and fidelity. He tries to be the "hard man" but his character and morals keep getting in his way....this is the character that hooked me on the show.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 2:55 AM

He feels betrayed, by the Alliance for starting the war, by his own superiors for giving up on the cause (and, by extension, him), and most of all by God. He placed all his faith in his religion, and is repaid by being 'thrown to the wolves'. He is anti-authoritarian on several levels, but the values on which he built his crumbling faith still remain....

IMHO

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 5:05 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Doubt it was Buffy's cross.

I agree w/ my peers here that the cross, and the act of Mal's kissing the crucifix was establishing Mal and his character at the beginning of the story, so we can see post War how much he has changed.

His loss of faith and not wanting God on his ship is a symptom of much deeper problems. Mal hates the Alliance because they are an oppressive government and there is bitterness there that he & the Independents lost the War. He also has a lot of resentment toward his former superiors for abandoning the Browncoats in Serenity Valley, then giving up on the cause and surrendering to the Alliance. I think his loss of faith stems from a feeling of a sense of complete loss of everything he knew and cared for before the War ended. He feels that God turned his back on him, his men, and the cause Mal felt so strongly in at that time.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:14 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
I agree w/ my peers here that the cross, and the act of Mal's kissing the crucifix was establishing Mal and his character at the beginning of the story, so we can see post War how much he has changed.

I agree with this as well - except it was an empty cross, not a crucifix. A picky little detail to some - to Protestants, a little more important. The crucifix symbolizes the Sacrifice, but an empty cross symbolizes the Resurrection and the Promise.

Quote:
Originally posted by Browncoat1
I think his loss of faith stems from a feeling of a sense of complete loss of everything he knew and cared for before the War ended. He feels that God turned his back on him, his men, and the cause Mal felt so strongly in at that time.

Funny thing about that Promise I mentioned before? Sometimes it can be reinterpreted to serve individual purpose, and relied on just a little too heavily. Faith is all well and good, but it has to be balanced by a healthy dose of common sense.

Much like the discovery of faith, Mal's loss of faith was also a journey, as indicated by the original opening scene showing Mal, Zoe and the other survivors of the battle. The deleted scene with Zoe telling Simon about it also indicates how Mal gave up on faith and had to rely solely on his own resources to pull his men through. By the time the rescue came, I think Mal had already begun to think he was in hell. And as we all know, Once you've been to Serenity, you never leave - which to me means a part of Mal is still in hell and likely to remain there for some time. That's the part he taps into when he shoots Dobson and Tracy.

Mal's pronouncement that Book's prayer was allowed so long as it wasn't out loud indicates to me that his faith is still there - broken and beaten down, but not quite gone. If he truly lost his faith and stopped believing altogether, would he have cared one way or the other if a prayer was spoken in his presence? It's more like Mal's just plain pissed and taking the school-yard approach. "You gonna abandon me - I'm gonna abandon you! So there!"

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:29 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Mal's pronouncement that Book's prayer was allowed so long as it wasn't out loud indicates to me that his faith is still there - broken and beaten down, but not quite gone. If he truly lost his faith and stopped believing altogether, would he have cared one way or the other if a prayer was spoken in his presence? It's more like Mal's just plain pissed and taking the school-yard approach. "You gona abandon me - I'm gonna abandon you! So there!"

"None of it means a damn thing". Would make sense that it was directed thataways from Mal. Wonerful breakdown of Mal's loss of faith btw. But gorramit I wasn't going to be doing thinking stuff tonight - left my thinking hat at work.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:38 PM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:
"None of it means a damn thing". Would make sense that it was directed thataways from Mal. Wonerful breakdown of Mal's loss of faith btw. But gorramit I wasn't going to be doing thinking stuff tonight - left my thinking hat at work.

I hear ya. brain fry... *poof* gone...

I've seen the school-yard approach first hand - and experienced a bit of it myself, actually. It usually starts with the "why" question that goes unanswered and kinda escalates from there.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 12:51 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
I've seen the school-yard approach first hand - and experienced a bit of it myself, actually. It usually starts with the "why" question that goes unanswered and kinda escalates from there.

I apparently nearly made a teacher cry with that approach - I wouldn't accept owl and the pussycat at face value, and proceeded to analyse the problems with it.

No wonder I went into the law....

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:16 PM

DUEY

Quote:
Originally posted by Channain:
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Mal's pronouncement that Book's prayer was allowed so long as it wasn't out loud indicates to me that his faith is still there - broken and beaten down, but not quite gone. If he truly lost his faith and stopped believing altogether, would he have cared one way or the other if a prayer was spoken in his presence? It's more like Mal's just plain pissed and taking the school-yard approach. "You gonna abandon me - I'm gonna abandon you! So there!"

Absolutely. The opposite of love is not hate, but indifference. Mal hates God. He's not indifferent towards Him, he hates Him. That means he still believes, and, despite the broken 'it's enough' exaustion that haunts him, still wants to believe.

His faith is very much still there- beaten and bruised and pissed as all get out, but there. That's just one of the things that makes his character so very fascinating. He wants to be who he was- he's got a whole lot of pain to overcome, but the journey will be so worthwhile. I cannot believe that Book won't have some kind of effect on bringing back that faith as Mal heals.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. Not as the world gives, give I unto you. Do not let your hearts be troubled, and do not be afraid." John 14:27

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 1:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

There was the kissin' of the cross and there was comment Mal made about the Ind ships coming down.. ' like angels ' or some such. Lots of things were lost there at the battle of Serinity Vally.... including Mals faith in...pretty much anything but himself.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 3:24 PM

PALEHORSE

Mal has lost more than his faith in God, he has lost his faith in humanity.

He has seen, for the worse, the truth that mankind is far more creative and capable in it's evil than any divine or infernal threat offered in holy texts. What kind of values can you ascribe to anyone who would let their own injured soldiers bleed out and die in the feces released by their own dead companions?

Many of the soldiers fighting in the trenches of WW I France experienced much the same thing and as a result, the British army was changed. The faith in honor among ones officers was lost in the meat grinder of automatic weapon fire. England lost virtually an entire generation because of class prejudice.

Mal, buddy I wish there was something I could do.

Oh, wait. This type of thing happens every day right here on Earth That Was.

Do you think that, maybe, Joss and Tim are anti-war?

I'm eerily reminded, by Zoe's deleted tale of Serenity Valey, of Quint's account of survival in "Jaws".

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 5:47 PM

RANGER

I think there's another level to this as well. Not only does it show his faith before the battle, it also shows how good a leader he is. Part of leadership is to convey confidance in the face of adversity. When Mal turns away to kiss the cross, he is showing that he understands just how bad the situation it, and that he knows what he is about to do is very dangerous. He's not a 'cowboy' who thinks he is invincible. He fully understands his mortality and the risks he is taking for his cause. This makes his actions all the more heroic.

As to his outlook after the battle, I think there is a lot to the argument that he still believes, but that he is now angry at God. For example, when he tells Book, that "You're welcome on my boat, God ain't" he hints that he still has some belief in the existance of God, but that he just doesn't want God on his boat.

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2004 6:14 PM

STATIC

I heard a quote. . .I wish I could identify it. . .but I think it sum's up the duality within Malcom Reynolds . . .who appears in the beginning of "Serenity" to be a devoutly religious, or at least FAITHFUL man, and later a man who seems to want NO part of religion or what we can fairly well assume is the Christian faith on his boat. (I am myself a Christian, but I do appreciate that Book does not represent a religion that is OVERTLY 'Christianity'. . .I would find that obnoxious and imposing)

Anyhow.. .the quote. . .

"Oh no. . .I still believe in God. . .I'm just pretty mad at him right now, and I don't feel like talking to him."

I think that's Mal. I know he didn't say it, but I can certainly HEAR him saying it.

I really should talk to my doctor about these voices.

==================================================
"Wash. . .we got some local color happening. A grand entrance would not go amiss."

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Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:01 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

I believe that he kissed the cross out of a simple fear of dying first and foremost (also from Joss' point of view as a director the iconography of the act is very fitting with the battle situation.)

It works as part of Mal's character arc as Serenity valley was Mals last stand - everything that drives him after that involves him trying to keep flying - "We're still flying", he's running to keep his freedom. - We see him as being slighly apprehensive towards Book - but being stubborn that he not say grace out loud (Mal continues to eat while various others, including Jane I think, lower there heads.) - Mal has turned his back on God after Serenity valley and Mal kissin' the cross at the start shows us this.

But I still think that that cross looks like Buffy's and I don't see any reason why Joss wouldn't do that - but if you guys don't think it looks like it maybe I'm just being an over sentimental fanboy.

No - I know I'm an over sentimental fanboy - these DVD's are getting buried with me and that's the truth.

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:32 PM

CAPTAINMAL

I agree with most all of what has been said on this already, but I just want to speak up for the opinion that Mal has not lost his faith, rather, that he is just feling alienated from God.

There are some other places where he seems to demonstrate a mral ethic, such as resisting Saffron and taking back the medicine which seem to be driven from an inner moral center.

Then again, he has little trouble killing when necessary so maybe not...

"Why we still discussin' this?"

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Thursday, February 12, 2004 6:37 PM

LEEH

Think of the omitted scene, the original first scene, where the med ships are coming at last to rescue the abandoned troops. Zoe has been asking, "Whose colors are they flying?" and then says, "Oh, thank God, thank God." To which Mal responds, "God? Whose colors is He flying?"

That scene is the (missing) pair to the kissed cross. It is the sign of Mal's lost faith--not in the existence of God, but in His righteousness, His goodness, His justice and mercy. And yes to all of you who have said this; this is Mal's journey, as he comes to terms with his loss of faith while clearly yet keeping some other sort of faith--in honor and goodness and loyalty and freedom from tyrannous authority. . . .

"Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. . . ."

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Friday, February 13, 2004 3:00 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

As great as I think this discussion is and as much as I think it's very relevant to Mal's character I think we're forgetting the reason that we're all here -

I've just re-watched Serenity and you know something - IT IS BUFFY'S CROSS!

Don't believe me? - Look at the it!

It's Buffy's classic silver cross from season 1 that Angle gave her. Still don't believe me? - look at it.

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Sunday, February 15, 2004 12:05 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainMal:
There are some other places where he seems to demonstrate a mral ethic, such as resisting Saffron and taking back the medicine which seem to be driven from an inner moral center.

Mal clearly has a moral background, that may or may not be based on a religious upbringing (though it seems the society is much more Victorian, and oddly buttoned up in terms of some aspects). Its a skewed morality (kicking the bad guys into the engine, his joke to Simon about Kaylee, his entire career), but its a morality nonetheless.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, February 16, 2004 11:36 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Yeah - great, but can anyone else not see that it's Buffy's cross - seriously - look at it!

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Monday, February 16, 2004 12:51 PM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by LeeH:
That scene is the (missing) pair to the kissed cross. It is the sign of Mal's lost faith--not in the existence of God, but in His righteousness, His goodness, His justice and mercy. And yes to all of you who have said this; this is Mal's journey, as he comes to terms with his loss of faith while clearly yet keeping some other sort of faith--in honor and goodness and loyalty and freedom from tyrannous authority. . . .

Also, recall that Kaylee tells Mal that he just 'needs to have faith in people'. I think this contrast was even sharper in Joss' original concept, but Mal was lightened up considerably by the time it got onto the air.

Btw spooky, I can't say if it's the same cross because I don't watch Buffy, but for those that do there's a screen cap here:

http://firefly.deadly-nightshade.net/images/serenity/

(it's image number 22 -- four across and four down)

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

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Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:11 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

Thank you!

There it is in all it's glory!!!!

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Tuesday, February 17, 2004 2:29 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Mal clearly has a moral background, that may or may not be based on a religious upbringing (though it seems the society is much more Victorian, and oddly buttoned up in terms of some aspects). Its a skewed morality (kicking the bad guys into the engine, his joke to Simon about Kaylee, his entire career), but its a morality nonetheless.

I'd just like to point out that morals and religion are two different things. Of course there's overlap -- many people's morals are based on a religious ethic -- but you do not have to be or have ever been religious to have morals.
Mal signed up with the Independents to fight against the Alliance, which I think he found morally reprehensible. He's breaking the laws of the Alliance by smuggling, sure -- but so far, I can't think of anything he's smuggled that's morally wrong to deal in. He's still holding to his morals that what the Alliance does and what it stands for is wrong.
And frankly, I don't see kicking Crow into the engine as any sort of moral problem. He knew Niska's rep,seen what Niska did to an in-law, and couldn't expect better treatment, for himself or his crew. More power to ya, Cap'n.

I'm not sure how much I think Mal still believes in God, though. It seems to me that Mal doesn't want to believe in a God that could let all those Browncoats be killed, then lose what Mal considers to have been a righteous fight.

"But she was naked! And all...articulate!"

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Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:18 AM

IDEFIX

don't know about the cross being Buffy's. it could easily be. looks the same to me but there's really nothing special about how it looks so it's not all that recognisable, is it?

maybe some Buffy fan out there knows what happened to the original cross used in Buffy. if SMG took it as a souvenier or if Joss has it or whatever. when was it last seen on Buffy? I remember her wearing it in S1 and 2 not too sure about later seasons though. but then I never really looked for it.

if you really want to know if it's the same cross you will have to find out what happend to it after Buffy wore it the last time on her show.

but maybe Joss or anyone involved in the shows reads this here and gives in to your curiousity and answers it?

Idefix

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Wednesday, February 18, 2004 7:44 AM

PALEHORSE

I'm still not sure.

SMG is 5' 2 1/2" tall and weighs 102-115 depend upon season

Nathan is considerably larger and the cross still looks thick in his fingers.

I'm thinking it's not Buff's. Could be wrong.

There were prodigies and portents enough, One-Eye says. We must blame ourselves for misinterpreting them. One-Eye's handicap in no way impairs his marvelous hindsight.

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Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:49 AM

SPOOKYJESUS

These are valid points - it is a very simple design so it could just be a coincidence.

But it feels like it is (although I'm not certain if the chain rings through).

I don't know - I'm feeling ready to accept it's not it (I've already accepted that it's not important).

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