GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Television Rant: Prove me wrong.

POSTED BY: HIROSTONE
UPDATED: Monday, February 23, 2004 06:35
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 10432
PAGE 1 of 2

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 7:36 AM

HIROSTONE


Okay, this is going to be a long rant, so get comfortable folks.

To whomever has the courage to read this, I have been an avid television watcher for twenty-six of my twenty-eight years of my life. Taping shows simultaneously with a VCR in the living room and bedroom (I need Tivo), and yes, I’ll even admit that I was a geek early on. Some of my earliest memories living in Hawaii as a toddler on a naval base were of watching classic Star Trek, Ultra-man and Speed Racer as well as my Sesame Street, Electric Company, Vegetable Soup and other various cartoons.

Now I don’t claim to know everything about television. I don’t know the businesses, nuances or intricacies of development, sponsorship, executive/studio/production politics, but I know what I like. The first rule, the golden rule of show business is the old axiom, ‘give the people what they want’. Well, speaking as a Firefly and an Angel fan right now who is disenchanted now more than ever at television execs; speaking as a Trekker asking for the improvement of the quality of Enterprise and stop recycling old storylines (and about the god awful new, improved theme); I’m also speaking as a person who has ruined his eyes sitting in front of television, who has watched television when all I knew were the three networks, that all the reality TV you have on now, is not what we want.

I admit I do watch some reality TV. The Osbournes, Newlyweds: Nick and Jessica, Family Business, all of which I got into because, although it somewhat intrusive in their lives, it’s more like a documentary which I find interesting because these people are just being who they are in everyday life. Also, I can understand competition like Survivor, and to a lesser degree, Fear Factor. Extreme competitive shows like those have been around for a long time all over the world, specifically in Japan where it’s been like an adult version of Double Dare for years, long before Fear Factor. However, I don’t watch Survivor or Fear Factor, for the same reason I don’t watch Big Brother, Average Joe, Joe Millionaire, Mr. Personality, Cupid, The Surreal Life, My Big Fat Obnoxious Fiancé, The Bachelor/Bachelorette, The Simple Life, or especially American Idol (did I miss anything) for the simple fact is I don’t care. I don’t care about these people that go on these shows. I don’t care that they win a million dollars, or they find the significant other of their dreams (which statistically the couple tends to break up after the cameras are off them), or that they get a recording contract. To me, these people are just cheats, greedy, attention starved sad people that have no respect for themselves, and are desperate to grab their fifteen minutes the same way tabloids and the paparazzi scrape the bottom of the barrel for news. It’s catering to the lowest common denominator, the voyeuristic nature of the audience, insulting our intelligence in an attempt to say that it’s ‘just entertainment’. It’s not; it’s embarrassing that the ‘dumbing down of America’ has reached this all time low (especially with this The Littlest Groom). The line between reality and fantasy blurs more and more the longer this goes on.

Most of all I’m sick of it. Like many of you in my generation, I watched The Real World or Road Rules when they first came on MTV. And it was interesting. It was something innovative and different. At first. But then I stopped watching it because it got old really quick. It was all the same damn thing over and over. And even before reaching it’s tenth anniversary, Real World/Road Rules had to do something to reinvent itself; hence, the competition between the two. In fact, those two shows were just templates for this Reality TV boom, so I really don’t have to watch any of these so-call ‘real’ shows because I’ve already seen all I need to see. It’s not real. It’s a premise and a game show on a grand scale. It’s inexpensive to setup and anyone desperate enough who wants to be on TV and willing to make complete ass-clowns for posterity, it’s a no-brainer, literally.

What it all comes down to is laziness. Television executives, networks, and studios are lazy. It’s inexpensive to produce a reality show. All you need are volunteers who have no shame, a camera and a bankable gimmick/premise. That just breeds laziness instead of creativity. Case in point, NBC’s version of the British show Coupling was supposed to be the apparent heir to Friends. It bombed severely with no reprieve at all. Why? Well, as a fan of the original Coupling, I can go on in a rant about major mishandling in development, bad casting, comedic timing, the US and UK producers butting heads, etc. However, this is a prime example of how American television can’t, or more accurately, won’t come up with original programming. There are the gems like Three’s Company and All In The Family that were imported from other countries that became successful in the US. However, the few that are imported can’t contend with shows that thumbed their nose to the trends and went off on tangents to infamy; shows like: I Love Lucy, MASH, Star Trek, Cheers, LA Law, Roseanne, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Friends, Gilligan’s Island. These shows didn’t follow trends they created them. Television now needs people like Joss Whedon, David E. Kelly, Sherwood Schwartz and writers of that caliber to walk through muck that is reality TV.

Networks and executives can’t predict what would be a hit or not, but often make rash and impulsive decisions based outdated means of polling, namely the ratings system. One household controlling the interests of thousands of people’s taste, it doesn’t work anymore. Maybe when there were only the three networks, but since the good old days, three more networks have popped up as well as cable networks, satellite networks, Pay-Per-View, direct digital cable, the Internet, VCRs, DVDs and Tivo. As well as families nowadays don’t sit together watching the same thing: Dad and Mom might like Law and Order, but Jimmy might be watching an Internet show on his PC, Suzy might like Gilmore Girls, and Danny might be watching his DVD of Firefly. So instead of listening to all of us, Networks and execs listen to some of us, and that’s not right.

Now, I don’t claim to know everything about everything. But there I know a thing or two about a thing or two: one, I’m pissed as hell that Angel is cancelled when it is clearly the most inventive, imaginative and wonderfully written shows on TV and had a little more story to tell before it could go off the air (and I can’t believe Charmed with the awful acting, the T&A, the bad episode puns and weak stories was renewed instead). Two, FOX, who use to be the new kid on the network block, trying to create edgy, innovative TV is now boring, following trends, recycling old ideas and reality shows that is clearly for an audience that has the average intelligence equal to that of eleven year old children (in addition my hatred stems from the fact that FOX cancelled some other really good shows in addition to Firefly to make room for Idol). Three, to any television executive reading this, take heed. We will be watching or not be watching your network according to your standards, which need to be redefined badly.

Additionally a little history lesson for you; MASH and Cheers, two of the most successful sitcoms in history didn’t start out as breakaway hits their first seasons. They built an audience over time. As well as two other shows that were unceremoniously cancelled before their time, classic Star Trek and Baywatch (yeah, I know, Baywatch=bad example) which went on to become huge franchises in syndication. And there are millions of Star Trek fans today buying merchandise, going to movies and conventions, and Baywatch went on for ten years before going off the air. Trends end remember that. The Reality TV trend is going to backlash like nobody’s business when the time comes. So watch out.

And if I did put off anyone with my opinion, it’s fine to disagree with me. I welcome your arguments. These are my thoughts and how I feel. I didn’t outline or plan to write this. I was just sitting around, thinking about the state of television today and just had to say something. This just poured out of me. They took our Serenity, they took our Champion, but they’ll never take the sky from me.


SIMON
You had the Alliance on you, criminals and savages... half the people on the ship have been shot or wounded including yourself, and you're harboring known fugitives.

Mal looks out at the black sky.

MAL
We're still flying.

SIMON
That's not much.

Mal answers, almost to himself:

MAL
It's enough.

-Hiro Stone

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 7:46 AM

SERENITYNOW


I thought I was long-winded!

But thank you for posting this. I think it really gets to the core issue. Don't hate human nature for its love of a certain kind of entertainment--hate the networks for being short-sighted in trying to feed that human desire with cheap, easy fodder and /only/ that.

http://dryope.typepad.com/superfly/

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 8:08 AM

GUNRUNNER


I too grew up watching star trek along with the normal cartoons a young child watches. And I'm remind of what some "experts" have said about teens watching too much TV, I'm down to the opening monologs of Lenno, Conan, the news, Enterprise, and a few others. Only 14 hours or less a week of broadcast TV, DVD player has been getter a lot more work than my antenna recently.

I'll admit that I've watched some "Reality TV" 1900 House and Frontier House on PBS everything else out there is just SO BAD. At least those shows stimulated some neurons. The last movie I saw in theaters was "K-19", I haven’t seen the need to see any movies since then. I'm starting to pay more attention to the commercials than the show!

Too bad the bad economy is masking any real drop in sales from people not buying due to advertising on crap reality TV.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 8:39 AM

ARAWAEN


I just wonder if these execs go home and watch this stuff? Do they feel proud of what they have accomplished? Or have they been so perverted that all they see are dollar signs?

I agree that a show losing money should be pulled. But I want anything I do to be quality, not whatever required the least effort on my part.

Arawaen





Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:41 AM

KEVIN


i am done with tv.there is nothing on so when i move this summer i will not be getting cable in my new place.sure,i will miss the daily show,but other than that-tv has become a wasteland.thats not to say there aren't a few other good shows on,and this decision isn't based on just angel.firefly,homicide,the tick,action,andy ricture,arrested developement(probably),and too many others to count.ive done the petitions only to see more "reality" shows crop up(by the way once you turn on a camera-no one is real,it's bad acting at it's best)let white trash rule the airwaves,im done committing myself to shows with great writing and acting only to see them go by the wayside.until joss returns-tv is dead.


p.s.-here's my inner child speaking-"FUCK CHARMED!GEE,IF I REMEMBER THAT "SHOW" WAS PICKED UP AFTER A CERTAIN SLAYER WAS DOING WELL FOR THAT CRAPPY NETWORK.ONCE AGAIN STUDIO EXEC. KNOW HOW TO TREAT REAL TALENT!----TONIGHT ON THE WB,IT'S AN ALL NEW CHARMED WHERE WE PUT THE 3 GIRLS IN SKIMPY OUTFITS,GIVE THEM SHITTY SCRIPTS AND SEE IF THEY CAN ACT AT ALL THIS WEEK.IN TONIGHTS EPISODE ENTITLED-CHARMED-HOLY SHIT THIS PASSES AS TV?

mal-....huh.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 9:57 AM

HIROSTONE


Just a quick addition:

I don't think there's anything wrong with the voyeuristic nature of television. That’s a POV literary device as well as the main tool for documentaries. That’s how ER became such a phenomenon as it looked very real and quick like a documentary film crew was capturing it as is. It’s human nature to watch. It’s the reason people rubberneck at car accidents or morbidly gather at a crime scene wanting to know what’s going on.

But I agree, quality is what I look for rather than spectacle. Critics can say what to watch, but I in all probability won’t listen. But word of mouth from a friend I trust who knows my tastes in television, movies, books, etc. I will listen to them.

If you get a chance, give a listen to Weird Al in his song Couch Potato. It’s a very good commentary on television today. I quote:

Oh, and "Fear Factor" I watched maybe a half hour
After that, felt like I needed a long shower
Network execs with naked ambitions
"Next week on FOX, watch lions eat Christians"

Like to tie up those programming planners
Make 'em watch all of that junk 'til their heads explode just like "Scanners"


-If only we could!!!

-Hiro

Mal: Had a good day.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:11 AM

RUXTON



Kevin, I'm right there with ya. I was trying to watch "Charmed" Sunday night to take my mind off massive personal sorrows, but Charmed was so pathetically bad I turned it off.

I could rant that the problem lies in the massive stupidity of much of the TV audience, who doesn't realize stuff like: after the US went into Afghanistan the opium growing increased massively, having been nearly shut down by the Taliban...That there is more evidence to implicate U.S. and Israeli insiders for the events of 9-11 than any Arab...That part of the problem with Iraq (which had NO WMD, and we have NO business being there) was that it was about to switch its oil-base to the Euro, abandoning the dollar...and on and on, but the bottom line is, not enough of us exist to mandate really good entertainment, or to be in positions of power to get what we want, like Firefly, Angel, Jake 2.0, and other excellence. I can offer no solution. But I believe it's a step in the right direction to turn off the TV.

BTW, before anyone pans what I wrote, I get NO news from TV. All of it comes from reading (mostly foreign) news services on the Internet. The evidence for what I said is massive and well verified. Look for it if you have doubts.

..........Ruxton

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:17 AM

RUXTON


Hiro,

Amen to critics telling me what is good. They can no more tell me what to watch than taste tests can tell me what to drink or eat.

I caught a few minutes of the first airing of that "reality" show with Tammy Faye Gobs-o-Makeup and the porn "star" and nearly puked. Looking at him was like staring at a used condom.

.........Ruxton

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:30 AM

CHANNAIN

i DO aim to misbehave


I wouldn't dare to try to prove you wrong - everything you said was so completely right that there's nothing I could add.

Interestingly enough, the pastor at my church did a little ranting himself last Sunday. His closing comment on so-called "Reality" telvision was this:

"The only redeeming factor of so-called reality television programs is that I'M not on them."

I wanted to ask him if he was a browncoat, but there wasn't an opportunity. I am planning to ask him for a copy of his sermon.

You worked more than one demon or two out of your system by writing this, and at the same time you validated everything that everyone on this board feels. Quality TV has been left behind in the midst of the most recent trend. We can only hope it will swing back the other way, and soon.

Thanks Hiro. We needed that.

Channain

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:36 AM

JODI


I 100% agree with ya on this one.I am tired of changing the channels to waych my favorite shows and see that they are ither being canceled or replaced for the season by some damn reality show.
That's why I only stick with my favorites.Although G.I.Joe comes on very early in the morning on the cartoon network,I still watch it.I am tired of watching a show so much and than turning on the t.v. the following week to find out it's been canceled.
Either I am on the internet,babysitting,or watching my favorite shows.That's it.Who's Line Is It Anyway?,in my opinion,is an amazingly hilarious show.It is now only shown on ABC Family because it was taken off ABC last year.What's next?!Replacing The Simpsons with "I'm Married To My Wife's Breast"?
I can't stand reality t.v.
I was a devoted fan of Fear Factor until it got old.I watch Buffy on FX @ 4 and 5pm,Who's Line @ 10&10:30pm,and every sunday I watch adult swim on the cartoon network.There seems to be nothing but reality shows on.Oh I also can't live without the Food Network.Nooo.I don't watch much.Blame it on all of those damn cancelations.And i agree on the whole thing regarding Charmed.If anything,Angel should be replacing Charmed and Charmed should get the boot.

~Jodi~


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:37 AM

JODI


I 100% agree with ya on this one.I am tired of changing the channels to waych my favorite shows and see that they are ither being canceled or replaced for the season by some damn reality show.
That's why I only stick with my favorites.Although G.I.Joe comes on very early in the morning on the cartoon network,I still watch it.I am tired of watching a show so much and than turning on the t.v. the following week to find out it's been canceled.
Either I am on the internet,babysitting,or watching my favorite shows.That's it.Who's Line Is It Anyway?,in my opinion,is an amazingly hilarious show.It is now only shown on ABC Family because it was taken off ABC last year.What's next?!Replacing The Simpsons with "I'm Married To My Wife's Breast"?
I can't stand reality t.v.
I was a devoted fan of Fear Factor until it got old.I watch Buffy on FX @ 4 and 5pm,Who's Line @ 10&10:30pm,and every sunday I watch adult swim on the cartoon network.There seems to be nothing but reality shows on.Oh I also can't live without the Food Network.Nooo.I don't watch much.Blame it on all of those damn cancelations.And i agree on the whole thing regarding Charmed.If anything,Angel should be replacing Charmed and Charmed should get the boot.

~Jodi~


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:41 AM

HIROSTONE


Channain,

I have not yet begun to rant!!!!!



BOOK
That young man's very brave.
MAL
(sarcastic cute voice)
Yeah. He's my hero.

-Hiro (get it?!?!?)

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 10:59 AM

KEVIN


ruxton-i agree.my news comes from the daily show(sad)and the bbc.to quote david cross-how fucking sad is it that i have to read newspapers from OTHER COUNTRIES to just get the news!KEEP FLYING.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:42 AM

SERENITYNOW


Don't blame me--I watch foreign news and the "Daily Show".

Don't laud foreign stuff though just 'cause it's a dissident opinion. The French media are not saints, and they manipulate just as much as ours do--they just have a different agenda. I'm in Taiwan now and the media here is completely irresponsible--with just as slanted a view as FOXNews (yes, yes--evil), and CNN (ugh). Before that I lived in Beijing. Imagine being there and having all the foreign news blocked out from your internet access.

So actually being in the States is a great position to get the best news, just because you have so much more available. Again, the rant against the mainstream.

Anyway, rants aside (just me--you all carry on): this is just another reason to continue getting our dissident opinions out there any way we can (cf. HQ thread).

I'm really fond of Jeremy Neish's ideas especially the idea of Firefly episodes that go straight to DVD on a subscription system. ( http://fireflymovie.com/directdvd.html) Just brilliant. Imagine--bypassing television altogether, but with the kind of quality you can't get through the Internet yet (consistently). This may be the wave of the future--more people I know are dropping TV altogther (bad idea in my opinion--that's how I discovered FF) and just watching DVDs. They like the control, the absence of ads, and the better liklihood of a quality product.

But there's plenty good still on TV. Showtime has become "special interest show central" but it's got "Dead Like Me" (fantastic show) and basic cable's Sci Fi is doing good work (with some exceptions). And even the evil WB network has "Smallville" which despite the creepy song tie-ins is an amazingly well-plotted show with solid character dev. The real evil isn't reality shows, which are just another fad (remember variety shows in the '70s?) but stuff like "Enterprise" which pervert the essence of the world. I'd rather see FF stay off the air than it become /that/. Remember the TV execs from "The Simpsons"? I'm guessing that's drawn from experience. (And y'all heard the commentary, which gave that impression.)

Wow, am I ranting..! And here I said I was done. Okay, I'm done. Dubuqi everybody. Anyway, while ranting, could y'all think up some action we could take to, y'know, take back the TV?

http://dryope.typepad.com/superfly/

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:48 AM

SHINY


Quote:
Originally posted by SerenityNow:
Anyway, while ranting, could y'all think up some action we could take to, y'know, take back the TV?


Yes...but it involves fake network TV HQ ID cards, portable defibrillators...and caskets.

RIVER
Purple elephants are flying.
MAL
Good. Thanks for the update.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 1:11 PM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


Rant on Hiro!

I'm new around here, a lurker for months, but basically I've had to give in and start posting cos I like the lot of you!

I live in a small dark hole where the news of Angel's doom didn't find me until yesterday. I actually started crying. I feel like an idiot for saying that, but I did. I couldn't help myself, I no longer have valid TV programming.

I don't watch Reality TV because I'm not an idiot. I think all those shows should just be called 'Hey check out the dumb ass' because that's all that they are about. For crying out loud 'My Big Fat Obnoxious Fiance' the fiance guy? Yeah he was the cave monster who gave back Spike his soul on Buffy. No reality whatsoever there. All the people on Fear Factor ARE PROFESSIONAL STUNT PEOPLE!! Nothing reality there. America's Top Model? Did Tyra Banks get the memo that Super Models don't exist anymore? If not someone ought to reality that memo over to her.

I'm sick of TV. The fact is isn't even the critics fault anymore. The critics LOVE Angel, they LOVED Firefly, they LOVED Dark Angel (another of the RIP shows I still mourn), but the critics can't save a show. Neilsen families are a joke. I can't see how 10,000 families can say crap about a nations TV prefrences.

I'm sick of trying to save my favorite TV shows, In the last 4 years I have worked to save at lest one show per year, and sometimes 2 or 3. That's ridiculous! And now there is crap on TV! We don't need 3 law and orders or 2 CSIs! We need new innovative interesting programming!

Yet Tru Calling and Charmed get to stay around a bit longer??? That's it, I know what Simon meant when he said 'This is what going mad feels like.' I'm pretty sure I've gone mad and may in fact be living in an alternate universe.

Bah!
Adrianna

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 1:12 PM

FREMDFIRMA


My turn.

The single most insulting thing, to me, about many otherwise barely palatable TV shows is... the laughtrack.
It's a direct insult to the viewer, insinuating that they're "too dumb" to catch onto a joke they've seen coming for half an hour!

Not to mention when you base all your humor on others misfortune, pain, or personal humiliation, exactly what kind of folk are you trying to reach ? some people do NOT find pleasure in the misery of others, even in entertainment.

To run a laughtrack over something like that, as if it's supposed to be funny - I cannot begin to put it to words.
Imagine, if you will, footage of our casualties (regardless of where you stand on the issue) in Iraq with a laughtrack superimposed on it ?
Not funny, and very offensive - so while it's less offensive for lesser misery, the principle of it is still there.

Television programming these days runs a cycle of sad...bad...mad, and on occasion whet's it appetite on evil.

-frem
diefuxdie.

PS - I am still convinced it's reality-tv that created the reavers, they became desensitized to it, act out, and get worse and worse, just like reality-tv does.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 2:00 PM

SEVENPERCENT


Now, some of you are more familiar with me than others, so you that are know that I've been saying this very thing since I registered on the site-
But part of the problem is that people watch this stuff- They get the menu from Fox that says 'Fat Midget Millionaire' and they still tune in - Just for a minute maybe, or just for laughs, but they still tune in- It's not the nielsens (which I agree are outdated), it's the Joneses (as in, 'keeping up with') - I hear several people at work or the University say 'I hate reality TV,' then laugh about what happened on the show- If you HATE IT, why WATCH IT? But they do- Fox killed FF, I killed Fox on my TV- Wont watch another Fox show- If everyone who actually said they hated reality TV and meant it would stop tuning in, there'd be a revolution in TV land- But they dont, so there isnt- No offense to the folks on here, all of which are good and true BCoats , but some of you do the same things ("Fox has a record of show killing, but I still watch the channel"-I ask you, why?)
People think (wrongly perhaps) that that reality stuff is 'cutting edge'- But it isnt, they're just getting force-fed garbage when they could have steak if they stood their programming ground- Someone on this site has the tag that goes something like, 'the more people I meet, the more I like my dogs' or something similar; and that is how I'm beginning to feel about the average American TV watcher

Every complaint you all have said is 100% accurate, but I dont know what to tell you- It appears, even though perhaps we here dont do it, that people enjoy watching other people look stupid- It makes them feel good about themselves- But my thought on that is, if watching someone else making a fool of themself makes you feel good, you need to re-evaluate your personality, because you arent a good person-

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 2:21 PM

RUXTON



Hey, Seven%, I have read in recent months that TV Execs don't know why they're losing their audiences. From that, it would appear they really don't know what to do. Abandoning Nielsen would most likely be a good idea, but that requires intelligence within the executive offices of TV-land.

If in fact TV continues to lose its audience, maybe it means more folks are seeing the light, and more TVs are turned off in favor of the best reality show, one's own life. Or so we can furiously hope.

I live in a really remote corner of the country. I pay for satellite TV and, like you, signed up for FOX when I read about Firefly on the Internet. As soon as Firefly went off the air, I cancelled FOX.

More soon....

.......Ruxton


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 2:24 PM

RUXTON




Hey Shiny. Heads Up! I liked your idea so much (defibrillators...and caskets), that here's my pitch:


REALITY TV AS YOU'VE ONLY DREAMED OF!

Welcome to our NEW TV show, "Zap The TV Executive."

Its LIVE, and will start soon in the Fox studio offices!

Come along with us as we sneak into a top TV exec's office with our steady cam. Thrill to the look of horror on their faces when we whip out our 100-megavolt electrodes and they realize THEY'RE IT! Dance along with them as they "skip the light fantastic" as the current courses through their bodies! You'll smile with satisfaction as, each week, we zap yet another top TV executive who cancelled one good show too many.

And that's not all! Play our "Guess the Top Brand" game! Each zapped executive gets the name of one of the cancelled shows BRANDED into their foreheads BEFORE we turn on the current! How many will get the FIREFLY brand? How many, the JAKE 2.0? How about ANGEL? Or will another great, cancelled TV show take top honors? Send in a Wheaties boxtop with your best guess as to which show will get the MOST BRANDED FOREHEADS! Winner gets to apply their favorite brand to the executive of their choice.

The reality show that CAN'T be cancelled, coming soon to a network near you.

......R

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:22 PM

HIROSTONE


Oh gosh!

I didn't know when I posted this thread that it's be like this. I was just writing down what was in my head bursting to get out. I'm glad I got a good discussion going. I'm gonna rant more often now!

Now, I don't know what the 'average' American view does watch. Some people like to watch juggle geese.

Now, I don't hate all of reality TV. I just hate reality TV where people who have no self respect make complete, total, moronic ass-clowns of themselves. You know where they eat stuff on a dare, like you could make you little six year old little brother/sister do. Any executive that has a "new" idea for a competative reality show should be

Reality shows that are like documentaries I actually do like. But the others... But I don't watch FOX anymore out of protest; no Simpsons, no Football, no nothing. People don't like change, people don't like something different, that's why they watch the same old drivel.

We all don't know what to do about the state of TV today. Even tonight, at dinner with friends, we were all talking about why Angel was cancelled and Charmed piece of "go seh" was renewed! All I can say is to urge all of you, change the channel, watch or rent a DVD, read a book, write/e-mail to everyone you know who knows a guy who knows a friend: tell them - NO MORE REALITY TV. WE'RE SMART, WE'RE ANGRY AT HELL FOR YOU CANCELLING OUT SHOWS AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO GORRAM TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!

PATIENCE
Mal! How you doin', boy?

MAL
Walkin' and talkin'.

-Hiro

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Tuesday, February 17, 2004 6:22 PM

HIROSTONE


Oh gosh!

I didn't know when I posted this thread that it's be like this. I was just writing down what was in my head bursting to get out. I'm glad I got a good discussion going. I'm gonna rant more often now!

Now, I don't know what the 'average' American view does watch. Some people like to watch juggle geese.

Now, I don't hate all of reality TV. I just hate reality TV where people who have no self respect make complete, total, moronic ass-clowns of themselves. You know where they eat stuff on a dare, like you could make you little six year old little brother/sister do. Any executive that has a "new" idea for a competative reality show should be

Reality shows that are like documentaries I actually do like. But the others... But I don't watch FOX anymore out of protest; no Simpsons, no Football, no nothing. People don't like change, people don't like something different, that's why they watch the same old drivel.

We all don't know what to do about the state of TV today. Even tonight, at dinner with friends, we were all talking about why Angel was cancelled and Charmed piece of "go seh" was renewed! All I can say is to urge all of you, change the channel, watch or rent a DVD, read a book, write/e-mail to everyone you know who knows a guy who knows a friend: tell them - NO MORE REALITY TV. WE'RE SMART, WE'RE ANGRY AT HELL FOR YOU CANCELLING OUT SHOWS AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO GORRAM TAKE IT ANYMORE!!!!!!!!!!

PATIENCE
Mal! How you doin', boy?

MAL
Walkin' and talkin'.

-Hiro

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:58 AM

DRAKON


Sigh, Other than the news and movies, (Oh! Angel, and Stargate SG1) nothing. I stick to the movie channels and THC, wife watches Discover, National Geographic, and the kids all have video games. We got a lot of DVDs, but as far as broadcast TV, forget about it.

No Leno, No Conan, no Enterprise, no reality TV. And most of the movies on the movie channels are crap, so don't watch a lot of those any more.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 4:07 AM

AJ


Going way, way back to the beginning of this thread - laziness, that's the key. The exec's find a formula that works, and makes money, for minimum effort, and they stick with it. The good people, after a long day at work, throw something in the microwave, slump on the sofa, switch on the tv, and, "oh no, not this crap again", so they channel-hop to the least unbearable until they finish eating and finally find the energy to move again. Exec's think, "hey, this is getting viewers", so you'd think mediocrity would be the end result (reinforcement of "least unbearable"s), but no - every has different ideas on what they can stomach, so on it goes.

Okay, so perhaps a slightly over-dramatised picture, but I think that's a big part of it.

Also, going even further back than the start of this thread - Television: It's great, it's the new thing, it's a wireless with moving images! All very exciting - think what we can show, but there are only so many hours in the day, so create an extra channel or two. Great, so diversity of taste is catered for, until more and more channels are born, then cable and satellite, and suddenly you have more viewing hours than you know what to do with - ah, diversity - except that there's more broadcasting space than viewers, so suddenly there's competition - all this space needs to be filled, and fast, so let's throw something together and bung it in, then persuade people who don't want to watch tv that it really is great - by the time they realise it isn't, it'll be too late.

57 channels and nothing on. THIS is what going mad feels like....

Oops, sorry, got infected by the rant virus there [anyone need a soapbox - one careful-ish owner?]

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:48 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


I'd be happy to rent that there soap box as long as it's decorated as pretty as Inara's shuttle!

I am still waiting for a channel that is basically the 'fan' run channel. It would be so simple. Start a network, get some of that satelite action, buy a channel, get paying subscribers. Then have a web site, called 'what do you want to watch?' whatever people pick gets on the air. Alternately this could just be the Cult TV network (where is the Cult TV network? why don't we have this?), where 'cult TV show' is not a swear word. Home to Angel, Buffy, Firefly, Star Trek, Farscape, Roswell, Andromeda, and so much more!

Thankfully I am not guilty of watching Reality TV, okay well except for the PBS ones (Frontier house RULED!) and MTVs. I like watching the freak show that is Carmen and Dave. I think Jessica Simpson is the stupidest thing on 2 legs. BUT those are the extent of my Reality watching, and alas they are not major network. I also have a Queer Eye obsession, but that's more of a make-over show, and it's actual reality, I mean the gays really do fix up these guys so it's not fake reality.

The biggest question isn't what don't we watch? But what is it we do watch? I watch the following shows, and some I do feel guilty about watching, but overall not so much:
Whoopi, she's hi-larious, and I think the wigger chick is hi-larious too, all of 'em are hi-larious with their smoking and drinking and strange habits... mmm fun!
Ellen: cos she's preferable to the 6pm news here
Angel: cos it's all I've got left of my Jossverse and no matter how bad it gets I'll still watch. TNT & WB
ER: Blame Dr. Kovach for this one
Scrubs: Hi-larity squared.
Queer Eye for the Straight Guy: Cos I love the gays, I can't help myself I'm a f*g Hag.
Nick & Jessica: Cos she's so dumb I am waiting for her to choke on her own spit.
Carmen & Dave: Cos they aren't as wierd as you all thought. (BTW the MTV programming is usually a Sunday afternoon thing cos there is nothing to do or watch then)
Buffy on FX, and occasionally the late night rerun on Fox or UPN.
X-Files on anything but Fox.
Dark Angel & Roswell reruns on Sci-Fi, but only when I am home during the day which is pretty much never.
I also had a thing for Miss Match but it's Miss MIA right now (Cordelia and the Captain were guest stars, gotta support that)

What I will be watching when they decide to put it on:
Wonder Falls & Still Life, and yes I know they are on FOX BUT the way I see it, the only way to change TV is to not just stop watching crap, but to only watch what we actually like. Otherwise we will all be forced to see "The most important third watch ever!" for the rest of time.

Alternately we could all just get lives, and stop obsessing over TV. But when you live in a cold place for half the year, that's a bit hard to manage.

I also am a big fan of the Year round programming dealy that Fox has started. It gives more of a chance for more shows to be made (and cancelled). But see, summer shows won'thave the same ratings expectations as standard season shows, so they have a higher liklihood of sticking around because lets face it, being a summer show is like being a little brother, if your older brother (fall-spring programming) is smart as a whip, the expectations placed on you as the little brother are less, so when you get an A your parents flip out with joy, you get a B they are happy too, and if you get a C they aren't disappointed cos they're expectations weren't high to begin with. Okay srange metaphor. I think it's time the soapbox got passed down.

One very shiny soapbox for rent, with genu-ine companion decorating.
Any takers?
Adrianna

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:14 AM

HIROSTONE


Hello my fellow Browncoats,

If today is any indication of what's in store for me at work tomorrow, I might be posting again on another subject that's been bugging me for awhile. Similar to the Television rant, and closely involving some fan favorites, including Firefly (I don't want to say movie yet in case I jinx it!)

So, I'm gonna be standing on that purty lil Companion decorated soapbox, hopefully with something significant to say about the state of fandom today.


-Hiro

Simon: This is what going mad must feel like...

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:54 AM

MILORADELL


I can't prove anyone wrong, 'cause they're not. But on the subject of rants, let me pose a question:

Could the American Civil War happen today?

Overlook the whole time-line thing, alternate future, etc. Think about this - your country is being hi-jacked away from you by money and corporations, rich old men are in power who couldn't give a fig about anyone outside whatever they perceive as their "own" people. Elections can't be trusted. Technically, the law would support incarcerating me because of posting this. Our purported leaders lie to us as a matter-of-course and get upset when we don't just let it slide. Our media is comprised of parrots. A fetus has better laws protecting it then an actual, living and breathing woman does.

So...what do you think? Ready to take up arms and fight for what you believe is right? Are you willing to risk your family, your body, your health, your pension, your mortgage to fight for freedom?

SO WHAT THE HECK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH TV????? Isn't it the same thing? Acceptance? A life too busy, too tired, too disengaged, too fragile, to take up a cause? How much has to be taken away - and not necessarily directly from YOU, but from a people en masse - before you feel the need to demand it back? How many people really don't mind being treated like morons by tv exec's, because then they don't have to think, because it's easier?

Somewhere along the way, we the people have become unimportant. Our opinions, demands, etc. no longer have any merit. Outrage is only acknowledged when it's directed against someone's bare breast. Don't bother getting all tiffy over your neighbor having to decide if groceries or rent is more important this month - nobody with the power to do anything, cares.

I'm not sure if my rant is making the connections the way I want. Basically, I think we've become too complacent and comfortable, and too intent on keeping what we have - so those that can, ignore us. Hence crap tv. Hence the term "cult show." Petitions? We did that. Advertising? We did that. Internet posts, letters to the editors, direct mailings - we did all of that. And those with the power, still did what they wanted to. With no accountability. I don't watch tv, outside of a little public television. And I will not watch tv once this whole digital thing happens. I just plain old refuse. Just as I won't buy Proctor & Gamble, Reckitt Benckiser, etc. products. Hit them where it hurts - in the $$s. Unfortunately, the bankrolls have gotten so huge, I don't think they even feel it anymore.

I've just successfully depressed the absolute hell out of myself .

So am I advocating truly taking up arms? No - but what would it take to get you to do it? I guess the whole tv discussion set me on this course, and it's something I've been truly wondering about for a while now. When did my voice become unimportant, and when will I be willing to fight my cousin to get it back?

Sigh...sorry...

****
Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.

-Woodrow Wilson

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:59 AM

MILORADELL


HOLY CRAP!!! When did I become a militant?!? Oh well....

****
Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.

-Woodrow Wilson

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:16 AM

GEORDIESTEVE2003


I agree with a lot of first post. Laziness. Lazy, lazy, lazy. Over here in UK we have yet another Big Brother coming to tv, and can I apologise to the rest of the world for my country ever making this show and exporting it, as its awful stuff. I mean the figures over here for last series were so terribly low, they had to start throwing all sorts of weird things in to try and attract attention, and from what I hear it didnt help. And yet, they are making another one. We also had I'm a Celebrity Get me Out of here, year 2, booooooring, they get E list people who want some money or attention to support their flagging careers, and get dumped in a jungle and have to crawl through spiders and snakes, and while i find it amusing to think of them having to do that just to get somewhere, its not clever or interesting, and now the animal rights people are having a go for being nasty to all the bugs and creepy insects!!!

Inventive TV is scary, its unfamiliar, its outside the box, its strange....its also wonderful!!!! It attracts people from talk and gossip, it builds through word of mouth and now this wonderful thing, the Internet, point in fact, ok a movie, but look at first Blair Witch!!! They need NEW ideas, not regurgitated crap, or new spins on old crap, they need NEW writers, not same people at helms of franchises such as Trek who turn out another crap show, they need to know when to say enough is enough, and they definately need to listen to the fans sometimes. Yes, yes, before someone says, if they listened to the fans all the time, nothing would get made, I mean, they need to have some fan input, and take note of it, take it into consideration. If one person says that character sucks, fine, opinion, if 10,000 say that character is bad, then go look into it, just investigate!!!

Very annoyed at the moment with cancellation of some good shows, only bright spot is Firefly movie in the long distance. Can't wait.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:47 AM

HIROSTONE


I agree with you, Milora,

In the state of the nation as it is today, I wouldn’t be surprised if another civil war broke out. Similar to the uprisings of the French against the aristocracy, a conflict would certainly arise between the lower and middle class of America against the upper class, more specifically the ‘old boys club’ known as Congress and the Presidency. Now, I can be proven wrong about this, but when was the last time any of you looked at any of our modern Presidents and thought of them as we think of our founding fathers. How would Clinton, Nixon, Johnson, Bush Sr. and W. be compared to Washington, Jefferson, Adams, even Lincoln?

Now, I know what most of you are thinking; “the Civil War started because of slavery.” Well, yes, that was a major contributing factor, but there were others just as important, but not written as prominently in history. There were issues of economics, federal and state legislation conflicts, congressional assignments, etc. Wars aren't started on the Carlin "Bigger Dick" theory, it's a complex matter.

And Milora is right; there is such an apathy with some citizens of our nation, mostly with those disillusioned with government. There are those that are so fixed on not rocking the boat, going with the status quo, and leaving sleeping dogs lie that their willing to say, ‘It doesn’t matter’ with the big issues, and chastise the insignificant ones, where common sense says it’s no big deal. There are some in this country that have no healthcare, there was a young Florida girl murdered from a man who should’ve been in jail, there is a continuing hostilities in the Middle East with our soldiers getting killed and yet the media’s main focus is on a woman’s exposed breast, a hotel heiress’ illicit movie, and an weirdo singer’s eccentricities with little boys?

I admit I’m apathetic too. I’m apathetic about arguments with the government about ‘who is going to pay the bill’ with healthcare, homelessness, prisons, famine, plague, pestilence, war (<-four horsemen reference) etc. I’m apathetic about conservatives that hide behind the bible saying that gay marriage is a sin. Until I get a flaming bush, or a almighty thunderbolt or an e-mail in my inbox from God, gay marriage is right by me. I’m apathetic about parents too busy or too clueless to discipline or monitor their children; you don’t like what they watch, shut the damn TV off. You don’t like that video game they have, hey, you shouldn’t have bought them that $200 game system in the first place unless they deserved it! I’m also sick of Hollywood; Ashton, get some acting lessons; Benifer, I could care less; M.J., why beat a dead horse? This like this is the drug that has been given to Americans to give them a hazy view of the world that’s around them.

I’m not a pessimist by any means. I believe good does conquer evil. I believe true love wins out at the end. I believe that someday, someday… Joss Whedon will win the accolades he so richly deserves! Still, I’m here to reiterate, reality TV, like Fear Factor, Survivor, and American Idol are not real! They are edited to the point where it’s fit into a timeslot where every damn minute is exciting and leave the boring parts on the proverbial cutting room floor. Just think of it. Shows like that are at a minimum shot from three to several weeks, sometimes months at a time. That’s hundred hours of unwatched footage. That, my friends, is reality TV.

You want reality; turn on TLC, the Discovery or National Geographic Channel. Or watch college sports, where the players actually care how they play, instead of the pros that whine and complain about how their million dollar contracts aren't enough. Turn on the news, or better still read the newspaper or the internet news-sites. Be informed, just in case a second civil war breaks out.

-Praemontis, praemunitus… (Forewarned, forearmed…)



-Hiro

From With Honors:

Simon Wilder: You asked the question, sir, now let me answer it. The beauty of the Constitution is that it can always be changed. The beauty of the Constitution is that it makes no set law other than faith in the wisdom of ordinary people to govern themselves.

Professor Pitkannan: Faith in the wisdom of the people is exactly what makes the Constitution incomplete and crude.

Simon Wilder: Crude? No, sir. Our "founding parents" were pompous, white, middle-aged farmers, but they were also great men. Because they knew one thing that all great men should know: that they didn't know everything. Sure, they'd make mistakes, but they made sure to leave a way to correct them. The president is not an "elected king," no matter how many bombs he can drop. Because the "crude" Constitution doesn't trust him. He's just a bum, okay Mr. Pitkannan? He's just a bum.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:51 AM

HIROSTONE


Man, I am long-winded!

-Hiro

Mal: Ohhh, i'm going to the special hell....

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:23 PM

GHOULMAN


TV is chewing gum for the mind.

As we learned from McLuhan, the medium is the message. TV has psychological limits, as well as it's other attributes, that are never ever pushed beyond the very edge of shear boredom. You might think you're watching exciting and interesting TV but the truth is you have been trained by the medium to watch the message over and over again. It's your addiction.

After all, the TV constantly tells you to watch or you might miss something. It's lieing of course.

There are a very few out there who, in my humble opinion, have managed to take the medium and use it in a more artistically valid direction. We can draw a line from good journalism (E.R. Morrow) to innovative story telling (The Twilight Zone) but these exceptions are just that.

Understanding this we can look at TV today and understand one thing... it's far, far, worse and insulting than TV has been even in the frellin' 70s! Sure, I expect a lot of crap on TV but the Corporate Media Monster is a creature unseen by ANYone in the Arts since Napoleon! NAPOLEON!!! That is... complete and total control of the media including distribution, marketing, and production. So what do we get? Reality TV.

And by the way, calling it 'Reality TV' is like calling my ass a Fruit Roll-Up.

It wouldn't seen so crass and commercial if, rather like in the old days, TV producers would show thier cultural clout by doing American Playhouse and such. Today... it's Reality TV!?!?! I'm being glib... but not inaccurate.

TV is mind control. Wether you agree with what you see on TV or not isn't gonna matter... it's what TV hides from you that will form your thinking. What's a good way to explain ... um, say you are an American in Iraq. You think these people will be push overs and they want desperately to be 'free', like Americans. After all, this is what TV tells us. But the truth is; Iraq is an ancient land with people deeply, deeply, proud of thier nearly 5000 year old culture. Do ya think a few Yanks with thier boysterous and barely 200 year old attitudes are gonna be anything more than just annoying to the average Iraqi? Think about it.

To me, Joss has changed TV just as Rod Sterling has. Joss has taken some basic conventions of TV and raised it to more than a melodrama. More than a soap. And it's here where I get off the Art bus when trying to nail down just what Joss has accomplished. I'll say this: seems that, rather in embarrassed secret form, many artiests loooove Joss and Buffy but haven't felt safe to 'come out'. At least, this is my impression (small though it is).

I know this is short and rant like... one more quote right from the Marshalls mouth - All advertising advertises advertising.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Wednesday, February 18, 2004 9:00 PM

PBI


TV is basically our version of bread and circuses. No big suprise there.

I doubt the nature of TV will change much. Or, rather, any change for the better that does occur will be the result of someone getting in charge of a network/group who really is passionate about making quality programming. In essence, TV has reverted to the Age of Kings and how good the next king is is a toss of the dice.

Of course, there's one other way TV might change, but the chances are somewhere around nil, and that is if a large, long-lasting campaign starts among the viewers to constantly bombard the TV execs with compaints about what's going wrong and how to fix it AND have such comments be firm, but CIVIL. Since that level of activisim will most likely never happen, well, thus my initial assesment of the chances as being nil.

Sad, but all too likely.

If you can survive death, you can probably survive almost anything.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:04 AM

MILORADELL


Quote:
And by the way, calling it 'Reality TV' is like calling my ass a Fruit Roll-Up.


Oh - my sides hurt! That is so frelling hilarious!!! Even funnier, when recently I was in the grocery store complaining about how there weren't any 'good' fruit roll-ups anymore! If only I'd known...

On a more serious note - we can bombard the exec's and whoever we want to until the second-coming (or to paraphrase Jason Carter, 'the first-coming would be nice, too.'), but they marginalize us. 2/15/03 - 10-15 million people protested across the globe about going to war in Iraq, and yet somehow those in power dismissed it.

The world has become a sensationalist tabloid. What to do about it? How do we change anything? Keep fighting the good fight, writing the letters and not letting our voices become silent. I have always been a 'the glass is 1/2 empty' person (big surprise, I know!), but for whatever reason, I have never stopped fighting. I've been fighting since I was able to form cognitive thought. So I guess I'll just keep doing that . And things like what San Fransisco's mayor, Gavin Newsom, are doing - they brighten my day considerable!

And hey - they cancel our tv show? Then let's get a movie!!!

****
Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it.
– Woodrow Wilson

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 5:56 AM

ARAWAEN


I think if you tack down the CIA predictions for 2015 they actually agree with you. It has been awhile since I read the document, but basically it said that the gap between the haves and the have nots will continue to increase and that the government must take steps to protect itself from the unruly elements of the have nots.

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:00 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Miloradell wrote:

Quote:
Could the American Civil War happen today?


The possibility is there yes, but quite honestly, I doubt it. People have a tendancy to be sheep for lack of a better word. Without a leader type to whip them up into a fighting frenzy, no one will ever be bothered to fight for anything.

Quote:
Overlook the whole time-line thing, alternate future, etc. Think about this - your country is being hi-jacked away from you by money and corporations, rich old men are in power who couldn't give a fig about anyone outside whatever they perceive as their "own" people.


What you are speaking of is the "haves" and "have nots". People of wealth, power and position have everything, want for nothing, and are not held accountable to the law to the same degree the average person is today. The majority of our population is made up of those of us that have to work our butts off just to get by in the current economy and worry how we are going to live when we retire. We are held accountable to the fullest extent of the law, and because we are not celebrities or hold positions of power, we are not guaranteed the leniency as the privileged.

Quote:
Elections can't be trusted. Technically, the law would support incarcerating me because of posting this. Our purported leaders lie to us as a matter-of-course and get upset when we don't just let it slide. Our media is comprised of parrots. A fetus has better laws protecting it then an actual, living and breathing woman does.


The problem w/ elections is that the popular vote, the vote of the people, does not guarantee the candidate the people want will win the election. The election of George W. Bush was such an example. Gore won the popular vote, but Bush won the electoral vote. The electoral votes are where the true power lies. One could say that the electoral votes are skewed and could be bought by political favor or personal bias.

As far as the lying goes, governments have been doing that as long as there have been governments. That will never change. Power corrupts and administrations will further their own agendas, and the public will be lied to and have information withheld from them.

Don't get me started on the liberal media. They are as bad as networks broadcasting whatever garbage they can to increase their ratings. I do not like the media, and I find their handling of news to be less news reporting and more sensationalism at its worst.

Quote:

So...what do you think? Ready to take up arms and fight for what you believe is right? Are you willing to risk your family, your body, your health, your pension, your mortgage to fight for freedom?


I would take up arms to fight for my family, home, and beliefs if it comes to that, yes. I would prefer to settle things peacefully, but I am not above protecting what I love.

Quote:
SO WHAT THE HECK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH TV????? Isn't it the same thing? Acceptance? A life too busy, too tired, too disengaged, too fragile, to take up a cause? How much has to be taken away - and not necessarily directly from YOU, but from a people en masse - before you feel the need to demand it back? How many people really don't mind being treated like morons by tv exec's, because then they don't have to think, because it's easier?


I don't really think you can seriously compare poor television to freedom. You have the freedom to turn the channel or turn off the TV and read a book.

I do agree that the masses blindly following along in the current programming offered by networks is part of a problem, but it is not one we can do much more than we have up to now. Fight to get Firefly back on the air anyway we can, and refuse to watch those ridiculous so called "reality" shows. If they ever tried to force me to watch their garbage, then yes, it would infringe on my rights and I would fight.

The truth of the matter is that our society runs on capitalism, and that means money is power. Unfortunately, viewers gobble up these "reality" shows, so every network is producing them to get ratings. That will not stop until the fascination passes, then networks will move on to the next flavor of the week. Viewers = Ratings = Sponsors = $Money$.

Quote:
Somewhere along the way, we the people have become unimportant. Our opinions, demands, etc. no longer have any merit. Outrage is only acknowledged when it's directed against someone's bare breast. Don't bother getting all tiffy over your neighbor having to decide if groceries or rent is more important this month - nobody with the power to do anything, cares.


I would not say that people are "unimportant", only that the Powers That Be will follow the majority in such things as television programming. Viewers = Ratings = Sponsors = $Money$. We may not like it since we seem to not be in the majority, but that is the way of things.

I agree that it seems the federal government is too wrapped up in furthering their own agendas and foreign policy to take care of all of the problems at home (economy, cost of living, healthcare, literacy, and the enviroment to name just a few). I am a firm believer that we need to focus a bit more of our tax dollars on taking care of the American people, and less on military build up and foreign policy.

Quote:
I'm not sure if my rant is making the connections the way I want. Basically, I think we've become too complacent and comfortable, and too intent on keeping what we have - so those that can, ignore us. Hence crap tv. Hence the term "cult show." Petitions? We did that. Advertising? We did that. Internet posts, letters to the editors, direct mailings - we did all of that. And those with the power, still did what they wanted to. With no accountability. I don't watch tv, outside of a little public television. And I will not watch tv once this whole digital thing happens. I just plain old refuse. Just as I won't buy Proctor & Gamble, Reckitt Benckiser, etc. products. Hit them where it hurts - in the $$s. Unfortunately, the bankrolls have gotten so huge, I don't think they even feel it anymore.


Network TV is big business, and as a business, they are in it to make money, not make everyone happy. I know your frustration, I think we all feel it, but it boils down to the fact that TV Network execs will look at nothing more than ratings and the bottom line. Come up short on one or both and you are history. Period. It sucks, but that is a fact.

If you wish to be heard, you are doing the right thing; hit them in the bank account. I am not sure that boycotting sponsors will get you what you want as they have to get their products seen by the most people. If not enough people are watching a show to justify the cost of advertising, a sponsor will pull out. Again, that is business. It is frustrating, but it is business.

Quote:
So am I advocating truly taking up arms? No - but what would it take to get you to do it? I guess the whole tv discussion set me on this course, and it's something I've been truly wondering about for a while now. When did my voice become unimportant, and when will I be willing to fight my cousin to get it back?


What would it take to get me to take up arms against someone? A threat to my family, property, myself, or my beliefs. I would fight for my county against a foreign threat, and I would fight for my state against the threat of an outside antagonist.

P.S: Like your quote from Woodrow Wilson.


"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:17 AM

ARAWAEN


Quote:
The problem w/ elections is that the popular vote, the vote of the people, does not guarantee the candidate the people want will win the election. The election of George W. Bush was such an example. Gore won the popular vote, but Bush won the electoral vote. The electoral votes are where the true power lies. One could say that the electoral votes are skewed and could be bought by political favor or personal bias.


I think the problem with elections goes much deeper. Many criticized Ralph Nader for causing Al Gore to lose the election, but I found Bush and Gore to be too similar on the issues that mattered to me.

I am reminded of a quote by G.K. Chesterton.

"For the powerful class will choose two courses of action, both of them safe for itself, and then give the democracy the gratification of taking one course or the other. The Lord will take two things so much alike that he would not mind choosing from them blindfold and then for great jest he will allow the slaves to choose."



Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:43 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Arawaen wrote:

Quote:
I think if you tack down the CIA predictions for 2015 they actually agree with you. It has been awhile since I read the document, but basically it said that the gap between the haves and the have nots will continue to increase and that the government must take steps to protect itself from the unruly elements of the have nots.


Never heard of these so called CIA predictions of 2015, but if anyone has a link point me in that direction.

I do believe that the gap between the haves and have nots will continue to increase. Look at the cost of living compared to say 25 years ago. A dollar now is worth 20% of what it was in 1979. I make triple what my grandfather made, and nearly double what my parents make, yet they seemed to have had an easier time of it. Taxes are higher, healthcare is through the roof, and the only thing we are not charged for is air. Given time I am sure the feds will find a way to tax even air.

I do think that the class difference will come to a head in the next ten years, though I do not know for certain it will mean a physical conflict.

Quote:
I think the problem with elections goes much deeper. Many criticized Ralph Nader for causing Al Gore to lose the election, but I found Bush and Gore to be too similar on the issues that mattered to me.


I have no doubt that you are right. The election system, like so many things with our government, is broken and needs to be fixed.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 7:31 AM

DECKROID


Wow.

Now this... this is what I love most about this forum. We start off with a rant about how luh-suh TV has taken over and is killing off good shows and great story lines. We talk about what luh-suh shows look like and how they have infiltrated our lives to the point where we feel dirty. Then the focus shifts, just a bit at first, to what should be a fitting demise to our niao se dub doo gway, more commonly referred to as TV execs. That lasts for a post or three before we start talking of politics and open rebellion. Before you know it, we have secret CIA documents about the haves and have-nots.

And all because some gou tsao de exec @ FOX (spit!) thought that Mal should always win, the plot moved too slow, and that a midget trying to find romance was better TV than this jing zi show called Firefly.

Well, that's my two cents on this.

I call her "Vera"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:00 AM

BLACKEYEDGIRL


Ahh I'm so reminded of the words of my beloved Anya, whilst conversing with Andrew in an abandoned hospital (Buffy eps 7.21):
ANDREW: It’s going to be bad, isn’t it?
ANYA: Yeah.
ANDREW: So how come you’re here? I mean, you could just go, right?
ANYA: Yeah. I did once before.
ANDREW: Before what?
ANYA: Well, there was this other apocalypse this one time and… well, I took off. But this time, I don’t know…
ANDREW: Well, what’s different?
ANYA: Well, I guess I was kinda new to being around humans before. But now I’ve seen a lot more, gotten to know people, seen what they’re capable of and… I guess I just realized how amazingly screwed up they all are. I mean, really, really screwed up in a monumental fashion.
ANDREW: Oh.
ANYA: And they have no purpose that unites them so they just drift around blundering through life until they die… which they know is coming yet every single one of them is surprised when it happens to them. They’re incapable of thinking about what they want beyond the moment. They kill each other, which is clearly insane… and yet here’s the thing. When it’s something that really matters, they fight. I mean, they’re lame morons for fighting but they do. They never… they never quit. So I guess I will keep fighting, too.


We all may be really lame morons, but we keep fighting, and that's the difference between 'us' and 'them.' It makes all the difference in the world.

Basically the way I see it is, eventually things HAVE to get better, or else they will end in which case no one except Keith Richards and a handful of cockroaches will care. Eventually Reality TV will go away, Eventually the masses will rise up (I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said that this country should have a revolution ever 50 years, he's not wrong), and Joss will win an Academy Award, and an Emmy.

Life happens to those who show up. Lots of people in this country don't show up because they are afraid of what will happen. The greatest controller of all the people is Fear (with a capital F). If there is one thing I have noticed in the last year, is apparently death is awaiting us behind every corner. If it isn't SARs, it's Mad Cow, if it's not Mad Cow, it's Chronic Wasting Disease, if it's not that it's Monkey Pox, if it's not that it's small pox, if it's not that it's ebola, not to mention the cancer that is most likely developing in you courtesy of all those cheetos you ate as a small child. Add to that that your next neighbor could really be an Al-Queda operative, and didn't that young black man at the grocery store look suspicious, and be careful there might be anthrax in your mail, someone could set off a 'dirty' bomb in the local park, and your SUV's tires may in fact split in 3 places on your way to grandma's house for Christmas dinner. Fear. Fear works.

Keep people scared and they won't try to do anything to the contrary (cos their too scared of the reprocussions). Then there are the crazy fearless masses, who are walking kamikaze's who get everything done.

Where is this going? I don't know I lost my rant somewhere in all that sh*t to fear.
Oh yeah the fruit roll-up refrence up there made me laugh so loud people actually stared.

-A

Well that's a radical interpretation of the text.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Thursday, February 19, 2004 2:54 PM

MILORADELL


According to the 2000 US Census, the town I live in has 20,568 residents. We've been growing exponentially since then, so tack on another 10k, just for fun. We had a school bond vote this past Tues (2/17). There were only 3,696 people who voted (my husband and I were #'s 2985, 6). This was a 65 million dollar bond issue - and that's all that voted. Was it convenient? Nope - and we waited in line for about 1/2 an hour, and I've got the devil's own cold and thought I was going to die, standing in that gymnasium.

So when I'm griping about my property taxes going up yet AGAIN, at least I can know that I did vote. And you know, it felt good. So maybe more people just need to take some time out of their day and vote, when there's something to vote about. I wish all the people I had heard complaining that 65 million dollars is too much, could have been bothered to do the same.

Satan - thy name is apathy.

****
If you didn't vote, you can't bitch.

My Baby Brother

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 1:15 AM

AJ


Who was it that said, "we have nothing to fear but fear itself"?

Phobophobia, apparently.

If I can just use the old Jedi theory: fear-anger-hatred -

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 3:02 AM

HIROSTONE


I believe it was President FDR; Franklen Deleno Rosevelt. As a response to going into war.

Mal: May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

-Hiro

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 3:53 AM

DRAKON


Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Miloradell wrote:

Quote:
Could the American Civil War happen today?


The possibility is there yes, but quite honestly, I doubt it. People have a tendancy to be sheep for lack of a better word. Without a leader type to whip them up into a fighting frenzy, no one will ever be bothered to fight for anything.


Ye Gods and little fishes. Do you realize just how this sounds? Maybe the reason why thing have not gone that far is that those "sheep" see war as far to risky to what they have now, or can see obtaining in the future. But because they don't run out and man the barricades and start shooting people for your point of view, they are "sheep".

Yes, there is no revolutionary spirit in the proletariat. Not because they are stupid, or frightened, but because they see what they got as better than what their grandparents had.

But I think there is something else at work here. Things have changed too much since the last war, such that the political fault lines are not about slavery, or state's rights or whatever. Its more along libertarian/communitarian lines. Or to put it more bluntly, between the NRA and Handgun Control Inc. Who would you pick in such a fight?

Civil ain't going to happen any time soon, because frankly, one of the sides does not have the military expertese to fight.

Quote:
Quote:
Overlook the whole time-line thing, alternate future, etc. Think about this - your country is being hi-jacked away from you by money and corporations, rich old men are in power who couldn't give a fig about anyone outside whatever they perceive as their "own" people.


What you are speaking of is the "haves" and "have nots". People of wealth, power and position have everything, want for nothing, and are not held accountable to the law to the same degree the average person is today. The majority of our population is made up of those of us that have to work our butts off just to get by in the current economy and worry how we are going to live when we retire. We are held accountable to the fullest extent of the law, and because we are not celebrities or hold positions of power, we are not guaranteed the leniency as the privileged.


There is a big problem with this line of reasoning. Well several. Michael Jackson is in severe legal trouble, despite his celebrity status. The former CEO of Enron had to surrender to authorities just yesterday. Martha Stewart is on trial. So we see that celebrity status is not a guarentee of a free pass as you make it out to be.

The second, more important problem is the inherent assumption that the "haves" got it by cheating, defrauding customers, or stealing in some manner. The idea that they might have created something of value, that folks voluntarily gave their own money for, seems absent.

Bill Gates has a big house, Da Vinci's Codex, and a garage that looks like the batcave. But rather than forcing anyone to give him a dime, he offered a product that was cheap to build, and higly valuable to the market. So lots of folks, myself included, bought his products of our own free will. Handed him our hard earned dollars. Why? We saw it as valuable, and comparitively speaking, it is. I can do things with my Windows equipped computer that I can't do without it. Like write this stuff down in a manner where you can read it.

The third problem has to do with envy. Its one thing when someone is well off and you are starving. But lets face it. None of us are. There are just not enough starving deprived people in the US to get that upset by what someone else has. Yes, I would love my own Lear Jet, and a big fancy house and a batcave of my very own. But I ain't living on the street, worried about where my next meal will come from.

What Bill got, he got. It ain't mine, and I ain't justified in stealing it, taking it by force. I don't want him stealing from me, so I ain't setting a precident by stealing from him.

Envy just ain't that much a motivator. Especially in capitalist economics where I have just as much potential of coming up with a great idea, or product, selling it and buying my OWN damn Lear Jet.

Now some may say that Bill never earned his dimes. But that is because most of Bill's efforts is in making good decisions. Making decisions is a mental process, and one of the biggest problems Marx had was he never saw how mental effort was just as important, if not more so, as physical exertion. Chipping away at a block of marble all day is not in itself going to make anything like Rodin's "Thinker" (In my case, more likely to make gravel than anything else.) It is the unseen thought processes, all the myriad decisions that go on inside the skull, that really makes a difference.

You can either have a fair system, whereby anyone can attempt to achieve the wealth of Bill Gates. But if you accept that, you also have to accept that not every will succeed, and some will fall short. Income inequity is inherent in any fair system. Or you can make equality of outcome your goal, create the world of "Harrison Bergeron" and live with the enforced mediocrity of it all.

Quote:
The problem w/ elections is that the popular vote, the vote of the people, does not guarantee the candidate the people want will win the election. The election of George W. Bush was such an example. Gore won the popular vote, but Bush won the electoral vote. The electoral votes are where the true power lies. One could say that the electoral votes are skewed and could be bought by political favor or personal bias.


But only if one wanted to look foolish. Since the electoral vote is based on the popular vote in each individual state, as well as that states population, then what you are in effect saying is that the American electorate is for sale. Not something that I would agree with, nor say aloud if I ever expected that electorate to side with me and my cause, even if I did agree with them.

(Just like calling them sheep, it is generally considered bad form to insult someone you want to listen to your views)

Look, pure democracy says that 3 guys can vote to piss in the cereal bowl of the other 2. (Or round up the other two and kill them, enslave them, make them watch "Reality Television") Small states were concerned that straight popular election would mean that high populated states would shut out the voices of smaller, less populated states. Which would not be a good idea.

Quote:
Quote:
SO WHAT THE HECK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH TV????? Isn't it the same thing? Acceptance? A life too busy, too tired, too disengaged, too fragile, to take up a cause? How much has to be taken away - and not necessarily directly from YOU, but from a people en masse - before you feel the need to demand it back? How many people really don't mind being treated like morons by tv exec's, because then they don't have to think, because it's easier?


I don't really think you can seriously compare poor television to freedom. You have the freedom to turn the channel or turn off the TV and read a book.


BINGO!!!!! As long as there are peaceful options, revolution is not going to be the first thing one reaches for. Complain, write letters, or turn the bloody thing off. Nobody owes you a television program.

Quote:
The truth of the matter is that our society runs on capitalism, and that means money is power. Unfortunately, viewers gobble up these "reality" shows, so every network is producing them to get ratings. That will not stop until the fascination passes, then networks will move on to the next flavor of the week. Viewers = Ratings = Sponsors = $Money$.


You make this sound like a bad thing. You seem to be forgetting the rest of the equation. $Money = Food, clothing, shelter, cars, computers, Lear Jets, bobble headed giesha dolls. In Nevada, $Money$ = a really good time.

But money is also information. What do you really like. Not just sorta like to own, or use, but "really" want? I don't know, and really have no way of knowing, outside of asking you directly. I can poll everyone individually, and try to get the goods to them in time, before anyone changes their mind, or I can try to sell them something.

If people really want it, they will buy it, again of their own free will. If enough folks buy it, I could be very very rich. If not, well, either way, the influx of cash, (or lack thereof) does tell me more effectively than polling what the customers want. Its far riskier, but more effective.

Quote:
I would not say that people are "unimportant", only that the Powers That Be will follow the majority in such things as television programming. Viewers = Ratings = Sponsors = $Money$. We may not like it since we seem to not be in the majority, but that is the way of things.


There ya go. Complain about the tyranny of the majority all you like, but the alternative is far worse. Letting the minority run roughshod over the majority. I don't know about you, but ain't that why our ancestors came here in the first place, to get away from exactly that structure?

Quote:
I agree that it seems the federal government is too wrapped up in furthering their own agendas and foreign policy to take care of all of the problems at home (economy, cost of living, healthcare, literacy, and the enviroment to name just a few). I am a firm believer that we need to focus a bit more of our tax dollars on taking care of the American people, and less on military build up and foreign policy.


None of those things mentioned mean anything if you are dead. There is no economy, no jobs, no healthcare, no freedom, or what have you, if you are dead.

And, lets face it. Government economic policy is like pitching in baseball. Good pitching does not win the games. Good hitting does that. Bad pitching can lose the game, but good pitching can't win snot. You have to step up to bat and try your hardest, instead of leaving it up to the government. You see a need, you provide it. You can even do so at a profit, and make yourself rich. Or you can sit on your butt and demand that someone else fix all your problems, give you everything you want, whether they can or not.

I would prefer the government get out of the economy as much as possible. Stop screwing around with tax codes, or health care. Invariably, despite the good intentions of such programs, they tend to screw things up worse, the more government involvement you get. Have the government stick with foreign policy, make sure no more terrorist attacks occur here, and make honest cops and judges.

Quote:
Quote:
When did my voice become unimportant, and when will I be willing to fight my cousin to get it back?


What would it take to get me to take up arms against someone? A threat to my family, property, myself, or my beliefs. I would fight for my county against a foreign threat, and I would fight for my state against the threat of an outside antagonist.


First off, important to whom? Look everyone one of us has their own world, their own problems, there own situations, goals, ideas desires, wants etc. It is the height of hubris to demand that everyone else pay attention to you, when they are so busy worrying about their own lives. I got a daughter that works nights, and am concerned if she does not get home before I head out to work. (I work nights as well, just later) So, sorry if I have little concern for the complaints of someone I don't even know. I got too much on my plate now as it is.

The same is true of networks. They are not running a charity, they are trying to make a living, just like everyone else. Besides which, anyone can come up with all sorts of fads and notions and things you will get bored with before I am even done making. The only way they can profitably figure out what the public wants is to look at ratings, and watch the money flow. Otherwise, they go bankrupt, and starve.

Firefly fans are a minority. But its art, in which there is no objective standard of taste. Some folks like Picasso, or Van Gogh. Some folks like watching geese juggling. Go figure. Everyone knows what they themselves like, but not really what anyone else does. Everyone knows what everyone else "should" like, but quite frankly, that is again just hubris.

To put it another way, its not that you are unimportant. Its just you are no more important than the other 6 billion folks on this rock.

I agree with Browncoat as far as it goes. Not completely. I would not fight for my "beliefs", my ideas or concepts, at least not to the extent of killing those who disagree with me. It is the actions that bother me. And if California ceded from the Union, I am not at all sure I would side with this state against the Federal government. Probably move and tell them good riddance.

You see, I see this country as unique in that it is not so much about land, but about ideas. The whole "blood and soil" stuff my ancestors left behind when they came here. Its the ideas of individual freedom, even if that freedom is to make crappy tv shows that I won't watch. I realize that in demanding my freedom, I also have to allow and respect the freedoms of others. (At least until I get super powers) Otherwise, I would be telling everyone just how unimportant they are, and how they should all bow to my whims.

But armed uprising I think is getting passe. Things are pretty good. They could be better, but open warfare is a sure way to make them worse. Besides, every 4 years we have an election. While you may not like it, too many sheeple voting for candidates you don't like, its much better than mob rule, or a dictatorship. At least with our system, we can institute our revolutions so peaceably that most folks won't know there was one.

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 4:13 AM

DRAKON


Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:


Quote:
I do believe that the gap between the haves and have nots will continue to increase. Look at the cost of living compared to say 25 years ago. A dollar now is worth 20% of what it was in 1979. I make triple what my grandfather made, and nearly double what my parents make, yet they seemed to have had an easier time of it. Taxes are higher, healthcare is through the roof, and the only thing we are not charged for is air. Given time I am sure the feds will find a way to tax even air.


You are ignoring what all that increase in wealth, despite an inflation eaten dollar can buy. Your grandpa could not buy a computer. Even if you were Henry the 2nd, King of England, you would not be able to buy a computer in his day and age.

Its not quite a fair comparison. Henry did not have cars, or even penicillin available. You do. So in one sense, your dollar may not be 'worth' as much as several years ago, but on the other hand, it is much more valuable to you now, than it would have been back then. Today you can buy computers, and all sorts of neat gadgets that otherwise were science fiction, or delusions back then.

And actually tax rates are lower now than they were say, during the 60's and earlier. And one party is trying to keep them down and cut them.

Quote:
I do think that the class difference will come to a head in the next ten years, though I do not know for certain it will mean a physical conflict.


I don't think so at all. Not in the US. Because we ain't got no classes. (And some say we ain't got no class either )

Look, class is an artifical social construct. And here and now, it means less and less each and every day. It has no reality outside the skull of the person who thinks it. Like race, it is being shown to be such much horse manure.

You got UAW union members owning Ford stock. Is he a proletariat? Or bourgeois? Or both? Or is he suffering from "false consciousness" (whatever that means)?

You can't have class warfare, if the folks don't believe in the concept of class. And here in America, we started out without an aristocracy. Just peasant, and a few bourgeois. But since the bourgeois don't play within the same peasant/prince paradigm, the entire class structure did not survive the Atlantic crossing.

All we got are celebrities, which I guess can stand in for an aristocracy. But most of them are simply too silly to weild much in the way of political influence. We got rich folks, but if Bill Gates demanded you shine his shoes for him, you can tell him to get stuffed, with no repercussions whatsoever. Whats the use of being considered an aristocrat if you can't get some peasant to shine your shoes?

[Besides which, Bill's stock can get un-valuable quite rapidly on any given day. Its hard to be king if something short of an assisination can dethrown you without your approval. Even presidents are subject to impeachment. And if they lose, they just lose their job. Not their heads]

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 4:49 AM

AJ


Quote:

To put it another way, its not that you are unimportant. Its just you are no more important than the other 6 billion folks on this rock.


Never forget that you are unique, just like everybody else!

I think that there's a certain amount of wishful thinking going on about the amount of freedom and classlessness in the USA (certainly a socio-cultural form of classism seems apparent in many American movies I've seen), but I haven't spent enough time there to say anything for definite, so I'll leave that to someone more experienced in such matters. I will say, though, that if classism (and racism) exists in people's minds, it still exists, unfortunately, no matter that it's nothing but equine egestion.

To give a UK perspective on a couple of issues, then:

Elections - we have a 'first past the post' system, which I believe is similar to your electoral process. Basically, a party has a candidate for a specific area (not necessarily a county), and if that candidate wins, he gets a seat in parliament. The leader of the party with the most seats at the end becomes prime minister, so in theory, one party could get 51% of the vote in every constituency, and a second party could end up with 49% of the vote and not a single seat - no representation whatsoever. So, there's proportional representation (popular on the continent), which has the unfortunate potential of giving parties with a very small percentage of the vote (such as a neo-nazi group) the opportunity to wield an excessive amount of influence in a coalition government. So, what can you do, eh?

Besides, over here the civil service secretly runs everything anyway, and nobody even knows who they are, let alone votes for them! (cf. old British comedy, "Yes, Minister"/"Yes, Prime Minister")

Don't know that this helps - just felt like sharing - but with any luck a different perspective may spark off different viewpoints.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 6:31 AM

MILORADELL


Hooo-boy - what happened here? Yikes! Eh, that's ok.

Fear - just reminded me of an interesting experience I had back in the day. It was some go se high school class, and we were all 'stranded on a desert island' and had to figure out how to survive. Well, after arguing and arguing, I fed myself to the sharks. Why? The others in the group thought it was more important to build a prison, rather then think about food, shelter, fresh water - you know, the stuff that keeps you alive! And I never realized before right now - that was their fear talking. That was well over 15 years ago, and this whole culture of fear thing was already happening. I don't know why, but I always thought it was a more recent attitude for the population. Hmmm........

Haves/have nots, envy. Not my thing. Who in their right mind would envy Paris Hilton? Or Bill Gates, for that matter. Fame, celebrity, wealth - these are gifts, of a sort. Some people make it for themselves, a lot more people inherit it. Now here's me - if I have a whole loaf of bread, and I only need 1/2 of it, what's wrong with sharing the other half? Why do people act like that's some weird-o idea - I'm not giving away the whole loaf! What I think is a weird-o idea is stuffing that 1/2 loaf into some off-shore banking account so I don't have to pay federal taxes on it. I don't believe in blindly helping, mind you - the school bond, for instance. We need a new high school, yes, but they can do it for less than 65 million, that's just being greedy. So when the 'president' sends our soldiers to war, and then cuts their combat pay, hacks the hell out of the veteran's health budget, and the programs which educate a lot of their kids - that just kind of bugs me. Where's the responsiblity in that?

As far as social justice and bad tv being so not the same thing....they're parts of the same cube. I believe the world is one giant connect-the-dots puzzle, and everything effects everything else. So if your content with really crappy tv, why would you bother about your civil rights disappearing? It all comes down to one of two things - lazy, lazy, lazy or stupid, stupid, stupid. Wait - does that count as 6 things??

Oh - it's not my intention to piss off anyone! I like doing that in person, better .

****
I'm not that naked....or articulate.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 6:39 AM

MILORADELL


Oh - I forgot. I'm not going to be posting anything for a spell, here. I'm really, really sick and I need to get better before attempting any more rants !

So don't think I'm ignoring anyone - it's just kinda hard to type when every orifice in your head is leaking! Blech...

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 7:06 AM

DRAKON


Quote:
Originally posted by AJ:
Quote:

To put it another way, its not that you are unimportant. Its just you are no more important than the other 6 billion folks on this rock.


Never forget that you are unique, just like everybody else!


Bingo, thanks.

Quote:
I think that there's a certain amount of wishful thinking going on about the amount of freedom and classlessness in the USA (certainly a socio-cultural form of classism seems apparent in many American movies I've seen), but I haven't spent enough time there to say anything for definite, so I'll leave that to someone more experienced in such matters. I will say, though, that if classism (and racism) exists in people's minds, it still exists, unfortunately, no matter that it's nothing but equine egestion.


Whether it exists in the mind of an individual is one issue, whether it is part of the national narrative, the conceptual framework of nation, what the nation tells of itself and too itself, its self image is something altogether different.

We do agree that it is an artifical pile of horse dropping. We might express it differently, but still.

Just read about the Italian Prime Minister. He was saying that in Europe, when folks find out he used to play piano on cruise ships, people look at that disdainfully. But here in America, we love that stuff. Its honest work, and fits in more with our 'sense of self'. The self made man who worked his way up from cruise ship pianist to Prime Minister of Italy, that is an accomplishment.

Looking down on someone just because he started off in a low class job, that is something we just don't get.

Even our presidental candidates all make an attempt to look like "just plain folks" Bush has his ranch. Edwards has his story about his milkman father, growing up poor. Clinton childhood was anything but privileged. At least that is the offical narative. Now, if class consciousness was such a big issue, why shoot for protraying yourself as lower class, instead of upper crust?

Like I said before, all the aristocracy stayed home. Only the folks for whom Europe sucked came here (or were sent here involuntarily) and it did not suck if you were lord of the manor. So we started off without such trappings. And all in all, especially considering the great success we've had as a nation, economically, militarily, scientifically, politically, culturally (which I would like to discuss at a later date) has shown us what unnecessary parasites such "betters" are.

Quote:
To give a UK perspective on a couple of issues, then:

Elections - we have a 'first past the post' system, which I believe is similar to your electoral process. Basically, a party has a candidate for a specific area (not necessarily a county), and if that candidate wins, he gets a seat in parliament. The leader of the party with the most seats at the end becomes prime minister, so in theory, one party could get 51% of the vote in every constituency, and a second party could end up with 49% of the vote and not a single seat - no representation whatsoever. So, there's proportional representation (popular on the continent), which has the unfortunate potential of giving parties with a very small percentage of the vote (such as a neo-nazi group) the opportunity to wield an excessive amount of influence in a coalition government. So, what can you do, eh?

Besides, over here the civil service secretly runs everything anyway, and nobody even knows who they are, let alone votes for them! (cf. old British comedy, "Yes, Minister"/"Yes, Prime Minister")

Don't know that this helps - just felt like sharing - but with any luck a different perspective may spark off different viewpoints.


Well, it looks like the same system here too. Does that go for both houses of parliment, or are the House of Lords different?

In the Presidental elections, the popular vote for each candidate gets added up on a state by state basis. Each state is accorded electoral votes based on the number of Congress critters it has in Congress, (Representatives + Senators, which are all elected straight from the popular vote)

The candidate who wins the popular vote in each state, gets all the electoral votes from that state. (With the exception of Maine and one other state, I think, who award their votes by district in the state.) In other words, someone could win the popular vote in northern Maine, and a different candidate in the south. And they divide them up accordingly.

The one with the most electoral votes is the new president. It does make the election more national instead of consentrating on just a few highly populated state. Its a bit confusing, but its worked for 2 centuries with only 2 glitches, (the 2000 election and one in the 19th century, but I forget which one. Want to say Ben Harrison's)

"Wash, where is my damn spaceship?"

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, February 20, 2004 7:19 AM

ARAWAEN


Quote:

I don't think so at all. Not in the US. Because we ain't got no classes. (And some say we ain't got no class either )

Look, class is an artifical social construct. And here and now, it means less and less each and every day. It has no reality outside the skull of the person who thinks it. Like race, it is being shown to be such much horse manure.


What a crock! People like Ken Lay and Bill Gates can get meetings with the president, I can't . Where is my invitation to the Republican Convention (I am a registered party member)? Where is eminent domain being applied to wealthy neigborhoods? During riots, why are wealthy communities given priority?

"That a peasant may become king does not render the kingdom democratic."(Woodrow Wilson) There is some mobility between classes in our society I won't deny that, but we are hardly without boundaries. When are we going to see executives outsourced overseas, companies could save a fortune doing this? Has the ghetto dissappeared?

Class might be an artificial social construct, as in it doesn't exist naturally, but humans create one in every society that exists.

Its not how hard people work either. There are a lot of hard working people at the poverty level. And most of the ultra-rich don't work at all, they have their money work for them.

"Governments, if they endure, always tend increasingly toward aristocratic forms. No government in history has been known to evade this pattern. And as the aristocracy develops, government tends to more and more to act exclusively for that class, whether that class be hereditary royalty, oligarchs of financial empires, or entrenched bureaucracy."
--Frank Herbert

And the point is not that different people have different levels of wealth, nor that wealth should be redistributed, but rather that people with wealth wield power and are given special consideration because of it. That is what class is all about, that people at different social levels are treated differently by society and the government.

I honestly don't know if it was Drakon or Browncoat1 (or even somebody else) who said the above, post was confusing (missing an end quote). But as you can see it touched a nerve in me. I don't mean to flame or anything.


Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
Here's how it was.....Do you remember & even mourn the humble beginnings?
Mon, November 18, 2024 09:38 - 13 posts
Where are the Extraterrestrial Civilizations
Sat, November 16, 2024 20:08 - 54 posts
Serenity Rescued by Disney!
Fri, November 15, 2024 00:31 - 5 posts
What is your favourite historical or war film/television show???
Fri, November 8, 2024 07:18 - 37 posts
When did you join poll?
Tue, November 5, 2024 04:28 - 69 posts
Bad writers go on strike, late night talk is doomed
Mon, November 4, 2024 17:34 - 21 posts
Joss was right... Mandarin is the language of the future...
Mon, November 4, 2024 09:19 - 34 posts
Best movie that only a few people know about
Mon, November 4, 2024 07:14 - 118 posts
Halloween
Sun, November 3, 2024 15:21 - 43 posts
Teri Garr, the offbeat comic actor of 'Young Frankenstein' has died
Thu, October 31, 2024 20:20 - 5 posts
Poetry in song
Sat, October 26, 2024 20:16 - 19 posts
WHY DID THEY CANCEL THIS??? *FIREFLY* Ep 14 Reaction Movie Night with Jacqui Episode -1-14 Reaction
Thu, October 24, 2024 00:04 - 14 posts
 VIEW MORE TOPICS 

FFF.NET SOCIAL