Book was a Companion. by Kelai

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Book was a Companion.

POSTED BY: KELAI
UPDATED: Sunday, September 2, 2007 18:17
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Saturday, December 30, 2006 2:56 PM

Specifically, a Companion to the Alliance heads of state.

Before you start laughing, Let me explain. On Virtual Firefly (stillflying.net) we were having a convo on Books past. Specifically the thread where I first suggested Book was a part of a secret faction within the Alliance to bring it down. And his job was keeping tabs on River.

And then I got random, because this idea popped into my head after reading around on the net.

Me: New Theory. There are Male Companions. Book used to be one. Specifically, a special Companion to the Alliance heads of state.
nbz: He was a Companion used by people at Milcom...

gorramshiny: Ok, now that is just weird. Your brain works in strange ways.

And then the evidence.

nbz: Just taking the idea presented by another and running with it...

Where is the flaw?

He is composed We know the first things companions are taught is control. He knows alot about things which he should not, but at the same time lacks knowledge about things which he should.

Companions are well respected in the 'verse, so that would explain his ID card in Safe. He would also have access to important people.

Maybe being him disaproving of Inara in the pilot was just him being thrown off by having to confront his past so soon? He did overcome his hesitation a mite quickly...

Companions are taught many things, including weapons training. He knows alot about some things, but not about others (he had issues in the series about reavers...even if Joss changed his own mind later on) so he would have possibly not been in MilCom.

For conjecture, we can carry one and say he got old, but instead of retiring gracefully maybe took on a few assignments to eliminate people who have dealt poorly with other companions...

and dealiong with death was not the same and he became unravelled. rethought his life.

Any obvious flaws? Well apart from this being a tad creepifying?

Not my idea, but it fits and is not obvious, so it is probably more possible than him having direct links consdering Joss/Tim's words that his past is not gonna be textbook obvious...

Thread -->>> http://www.stillflying.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=247&postdays=0&postor
der=asc&start=0

So what do you guys think? Any new ideas?

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Saturday, December 30, 2006 3:04 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

In a weird way, I kind of like it - plus, it's one of the best explainations of Book's past I've read, so...

::shrugs::

Rules on voting here: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:33 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by Kelai:

Any obvious flaws? Well apart from this being a tad creepifying?

You start with something that you want and find evidence for it. This is a problem. You must look at the evidence and see where it leads not the other way around.

Basically, you have circular logic.

There is also some problems with the circle.

Quote:

He is composed We know the first things companions are taught is control. He knows alot about things which he should not, but at the same time lacks knowledge about things which he should.

But, he doesn't really have that much control. Remember when he went to Inara to bear his soul? Several short outbursts? i.e. When he saw Mal's ear. How would he be able to tell what type of ship and what that ship would be attached to when Mal and Wash got kidnapped by Niska?

Basically, he displays military knowledge, not only limited to details about ships, but tactics as well.

Quote:

Companions are well respected in the 'verse, so that would explain his ID card in Safe. He would also have access to important people.

The problem with this is that if he was a Companion to high level officials, they would kinda want him back. They wouldn't have let him go so easily. They aren't exactly nice people after all.

Quote:

Maybe being him disaproving of Inara in the pilot was just him being thrown off by having to confront his past so soon? He did overcome his hesitation a mite quickly...

So, then he was thrown of by just meeting another Companion? Where's the control you spoke of?

Come to think of it, you also haven't mentioned why/how/etc he stopped being a Companion. Why would he have any animosity towards the guild? What did they do to him?

Quote:

Companions are taught many things, including weapons training. He knows alot about some things, but not about others (he had issues in the series about reavers...even if Joss changed his own mind later on) so he would have possibly not been in MilCom.

Training in weapons yes. But for practical purposes, I'm not convinced i.e. theory is different from practice and I haven't seen any evidence that Companions got practical training.

You're also going to have to say what you mean by "issues in the series about reavers". I didn't really see any.

He had said that they were men that had lost there way. Also, he was afraid of them. Where's the issue?

Quote:

For conjecture, we can carry one and say he got old, but instead of retiring gracefully maybe took on a few assignments to eliminate people who have dealt poorly with other companions...

Um, assignments from who? The guild wouldn't touch that nor would any dissident movement (they wouldn't want to risk exposure until they were ready to make there move).

Quote:

and dealiong with death was not the same and he became unravelled. rethought his life.

So, then he's a Companion turned Assassin turned Preacher? Seems a little far fetched.

Quote:

Not my idea, but it fits and is not obvious, so it is probably more possible than him having direct links consdering Joss/Tim's words that his past is not gonna be textbook obvious...

I'm going to have to disagree with you on every conceivable level here.

Personally, I think that things such as this should be left a mystery; everything the we would come up with is going to be wrong.

Just let it be.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:54 PM

DARKJESTER

Can't say I'm convinced, but I certainly can't prove you wrong by what's in the series, BDM, and other "canon" sources. Interesting theory!

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 4:18 PM

NBZ

I think I should defend my post from the Virtual Firefly forums. Kelai suggested a theory, I ran with it.

It is unique, and I find it pretty creepy. Just imagine Book being some high brass officials 'Toy Boy' to parade around. /Shudders.

But back to my defence:

Quote:
SigmaNunki wrote:
You start with something that you want and find evidence for it. This is a problem. You must look at the evidence and see where it leads not the other way around.

Ofcourse. I went looking for evidence to support the theory, and not the other way around. It's what I did in A level chemistry aswell. :)

The other way is way too much work. Besides a theory was presented to me and I applied the scenes to it. It was not my theory, and I would in fact love to see it shot to bits

Quote:
But, he doesn't really have that much control. Remember when he went to Inara to bear his soul? Several short outbursts? i.e. When he saw Mal's ear. How would he be able to tell what type of ship and what that ship would be attached to when Mal and Wash got kidnapped by Niska?

Basically, he displays military knowledge, not only limited to details about ships, but tactics as well.

Book is composed, but he is not a robot.

Other companions also lost it in the series. Inara is not always composed. SHe has a habit of getting angry with Mal. Nandi left the guild after losing her composure... killing someone with a dulcimer. Ring a bell?

Quote:
The problem with this is that if he was a Companion to high level officials, they would kinda want him back. They wouldn't have let him go so easily. They aren't exactly nice people after all.

Circular logic ;)

He is not a threat to them. The Alliance (or whoever he was a companion to) does not kill everyone. It would not need to kill Book. Besides it would be bad for business. Get a black mark? which client would go service a person knowing that when they are no longer useful, they will be eliminated.

Quote:
So, then he was thrown of by just meeting another Companion? Where's the control you spoke of?

As above. He is not a moro... I mean he is not a robot. The unexpected can throw even the most composed of people. Especially after being led on in a false manner. Meeting an ambassador and all.

Quote:
Come to think of it, you also haven't mentioned why/how/etc he stopped being a Companion. Why would he have any animosity towards the guild? What did they do to him?

Maybe he got old and retired? Where is his animosity to the guild? I doubt any is shown in the series or the BDM. it's just his past, one he would rather forget now.

Quote:
Training in weapons yes. But for practical purposes, I'm not convinced i.e. theory is different from practice and I haven't seen any evidence that Companions got practical training.

Nandi fights alongside Mal to protect the HoG. Inara teaches him how to sowrod fight. She is also the least injured in the BDM finale. (but I would put that more down to you cannot hit the beauty with an ugly stick in a movie rather that her being a good fighter...). Saffron clearly knows quite a bit about weapons and she has recieved companion training according to Inara.

Quote:
Um, assignments from who? The guild wouldn't touch that nor would any dissident movement (they wouldn't want to risk exposure until they were ready to make there move).

My bit here was pure conjecture, but assignments do not have to be alliance people. Just problems for the Guild. People who have maybe killed other companions? pure conjecture.

But at the same time any organisation that gives out suicide/murder kits can not be seen in my eyes as totally benevolent.

With reavers, it's more about that guy in bushwacked, but I am not fully sure about this myself, so i will agree with you here.

But overall the critique of the theory does not stand up to merit.

I am not a moron!
I am wearing full body armour!

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Tuesday, January 2, 2007 4:45 PM

GOMITHROUS

It's a... different view on Book's past. I like it more than the traditional "Book was an Operative" theory. It also makes a whole lot o' sense (as does the Operative theory so I think it's really just a matter of opinion, there's no way of telling for sure). I personally like this one more, it's funnier. Then again I think I still at least half hate Book. I wasn't sad when he died at all (bastard broke up Simon and Kaylee's first potential kiss!), I guess I can't totally hate Book after all he is Book.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~> Scorpion owns all <~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Wednesday, January 3, 2007 12:35 AM

RCAT

I love the theory. Don't think it's likely at all, despite good reasoning but, still, it has a kind of poetry to it. A refreshing change from the operative arguments (which Joss himself said "...would be interesting, but no..."). I always thought either well connected criminal or former Marshall were probable. Whatever his past, we can assume it was colorful and varied...and being a companion at some point could easily fit into that (tho' slightly creepifying if you put too much thought into it).

'Cause how you get there is the worthier part.
-Book

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Wednesday, January 3, 2007 3:10 AM

SHINYED

Sorry, but no way was Book a companion.

I believe he was a special liason between the Alliance Parliament and their Operatives.

In other words, he was the one giving orders to Operatives because Parliament members couldn't actually have any direct contact with their hired assassins.

Nathan's kilts rule!

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Wednesday, January 3, 2007 5:01 PM

NBZ

I am surprised that some people seem to be offended by the idea...

tbh, we do not have much info, so he could have been many things.

Maybe exiled royalty? :)

All we can do is apply the data and see if it fits.

Or not apply it and just come up with some shiny story. It's not as we have to run with it... or even buy it ourselves.

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Thursday, January 4, 2007 10:47 AM

INDIGOSTARBLASTER

Wow. This is definitely an interesting twist.

I could see him being a Companion to Milcom personnel, maybe even being specially trained in the lingo and military analysis so his clients would be able to decompress while talking about work to someone who understands (but isn't anywhere in the chain of command). The sharpshooting could be part of standard Companion training, along with swordfighting and archery.

And then, when he decided to retire from being a Companion, he wasn't really inclined to join the mainstream, so decided to explore the other side of his spirituality by becoming a Christian monk.

The problems -- first, his discomfiture meeting Inara in the pilot. This originally seemed to be a problem because, as a straight-laced Christian preacher, he would have problems with the idea of prostitution. If he were in fact a former Companion himself, the problem would instead have to be... hmm...

Maybe as a Milcom Companion he would be subject to all kinds of confidentiality agreements, and he was momentarily afraid she would recognize him and inadvertently say something? And he recovered easily enough once he realized that she didn't suspect.

Second problem -- in the pilot he says he's not a grandpa because he's never married, and in Objects in Space he implies (in his conversation with Jayne) that he's never had sex. This could be misdirection -- maybe Companions aren't allowed to have kids unless they leave the Guild to marry, and maybe all he was saying to Jayne wasn't that he hadn't had sex since becoming a Shepherd...

Definitely Whedonesque -- I like it :)

Indigo S.

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Thursday, January 4, 2007 11:46 AM

ADAMWANKENOBI

LOL to the OP! This actually sounds like something Joss would do.

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Thursday, January 4, 2007 4:27 PM

SIRI

I like it! Clever and you never know where Joss is going to take you. Maybe someday we'll find out.

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

Siri

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 7:49 AM

KELAI

Yup -- its also interesting that there's an Inara the OPerative thread and a Book the COmpanion thread :)

I find the theory completely logical in 95% of the parts. The only thing I take issue with is when Book first meets Inara.

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(¸.·´ (¸.·' ¤~ { l o v e } is watching someone die.

> > > signature by Superfluous <33

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 1:31 PM

MIMA

ROFLMAO

I know it's not very constructive to the conversation, but gollywhiz *wipes tears*, thanks for the laughs. No. in nohow way. No.

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Saturday, January 6, 2007 1:58 PM

CAUSAL

Contrary to Kelai, the argument is not only not logical, it is positively illogical--the conclusion being drawn does not follow from the premises, the very definition of illogical.

I concur with Sigmanunki that's there's bad argumentation going on here, but I'm going to say that the fallacy being committed isn't question-begging, it's either affirming the consequent or undistributed middle. The several pieces of evidence go essentially as follows: "We know that companions _________, and Book _________. Therefore, Book must be a companion" (I know it's an oversimplification, but bear with me).

On the one hand, the problem could be something like this: If you're a companion, then you are well-composed; Book is well composed; therefore, Book is a companion. But this won't work. Being well-composed is a necessary condition to being a companion, but not a sufficient one. Consider the following: if you're decapitated, then you're dead; Wash is dead; therefore, Wash is decapitated. The problem? death is necessary for decapitation, but not sufficient for it. Same deal with companion and well-composed. So you've identified a bunch of traits that are necessary conditions for the state of being a companion, but none of them are sufficient.

On the other hand, the argument may be working like this: All companions are well-composed; Book is well-composed; therefore, Book is a companion. But the trouble here is that although you have made a statement about all companions, you haven't made a statement about all well-composed people. Basically, you've said that every single companion is inside the category of well-composed--but it could very well be that there are other people that are part of the category "well-composed" but who are not companions. Consider the following illustration: All mafia members are criminals; Jesse James is a criminal; therefore Jesse James is a mafia member. But that's not right, because we've only said things about all mafia members, not all criminals.

I guess you might be able to use your evidence for a probabilistic argument; but unfortunately, the inferences you're trying to draw don't seem to follow from the evidence.

That said, my real reason for not thinking Book is a companion is that it makes my skin crawl. Personally, I think he's got demons much bigger than being a companion or a secret good guy. He was a bad guy, and I think we should embrace his dark past instead of turning him into a secret Independent sympathizer.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 12:47 AM

RCAT

I don't think the theory was meant as a logical argument, just an interesting possiblity. Your right, Causal, that presented as an if/then proof the logic presented is false (just like the Operative theory: operatives are trained in guerilla tactics, Book knows about guerilla tactics, therefore...). I think it was more of a if/then-it-is-possible musing. Some of the facts fit into the possibity that, at some point, Book may have been a companion (or a crime-lord, or an alliance general).

I love the idea because it's unexpected and no one's brought it up before (and we all know Joss is all about unexpected). As I mentioned before, I think it's hightly unlikely but great for a discussion topic.

"What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the will to find out, which is the exact opposite." - Bertrand Russell

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Sunday, January 7, 2007 3:42 AM

CAUSAL

Right, as I said, they facts presented could be used in a probabilistic argument quite well, but not in an inferential one.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

Vote Firefly! http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 3:01 PM

NBZ

Bumping this topic for those who may be interested.

Exhibit A - Companion Book:

I rest my case.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 3:23 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

That there looks like an NYPD Detective circa 1977-1982.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:25 PM

FLORALBUNNY

Was that man not exquisite when he was "NYPD" all those years ago?

On topic: It would take a heckuvalot of patching to make Book a former Companion and have it feel right to me. Joss could surely come up with a past for Book which, at revelation, would give us all an AHA moment, rather than prompting quibble-fits.

bun
Frisky Browncoat
Capt. Mal's birthday is Sept. 20
I planted a cake...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Save the fireflies! Minimize outdoor lighting so the boys can find the girls!!

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:32 PM

NBZ

Out of interest, are there any particular instances/thoughts you think clash with the theory? or is it just general icky/squicky/freaky/mindrubber-don't-wanna-think-about-it type of thing?

(I do have a vested interest in making things fit as I expanded on the unbelievable to make it almost believable...)

The main thing about this conspiracy theory for me is that it is fun. and to me it does seem to fit the facts that I can remember.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 4:59 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Well for one, he seems to know a lot about law enforcement which is not likely to be part of the companion knowledge base. Two, I think the ID card scene in Safe indicates he had some official capacity which correlates with the former law enforcement idea.

I always felt the model for Book was Brother Cadfael.

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Saturday, September 1, 2007 7:07 PM

FLORALBUNNY

Brother Cadfael!
I LOVE Brother Cadfael!!
Thank you, Veteran.

No, no icky-squicky etc. They are, after all, fictional characters, and you can be as silly as you want with them, but I prefer logic in anything which is not an out-and-out Trip, begging your pardon.

This is why as a general policy I run screaming from fic...

bun
Frisky Browncoat
Capt. Mal's birthday is Sept. 20
I planted a cake...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Save the fireflies! Minimize outdoor lighting so the boys can find the girls!!

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 12:53 PM

NBZ

yeah, we gotta agree to disagree then.

I myself do think the facts fit and I like the twist.

PS This is probably not a valid reason to run from fan fic. no one has been willing to write this. (well Jetflair may include it in her "worst fanfic ever" project. I am proud of that.)

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 1:15 PM

RIVERFLAN

My take on that theory is that, while its interesting, it isn't likely. I understand you probably meant it as a joke, so I won't repeat all the things Casual said. It's too silly for people to take seriously, so it can't be Book's past, cause Joss would do something shocking but belivable.

Also, it was too late to tell me to stop laughing. I was laughing my hed off when I read the title. No offense or anything, it was just a funny image of Book in one of Inara's dresses (wouldn't that make you laugh?)

"The human body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds, given adequate vaccuuming systems." -River

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think -River

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 1:28 PM

DONCOAT

Look, they got Book whores! Isn't that thoughtful?

I wonder if he services girl folk at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 1:51 PM

NBZ

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 4:59 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

Quote:
Originally posted by FloralBunny:
Brother Cadfael!
I LOVE Brother Cadfael!!
Thank you, Veteran.

.....They are, after all, fictional characters, and you can be as silly as you want with them, but I prefer logic ....
bun
Frisky Browncoat
Capt. Mal's birthday is Sept. 20
I planted a cake...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Save the fireflies! Minimize outdoor lighting so the boys can find the girls!!

Bun,

you're welcome. Also you're on target there's no way Book was a companion.

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 5:56 PM

FLORALBUNNY

Heh. Had a private Firefly half-marathon today, starting with Disc One, and paid close attention to Book. No way this man was ever a Companion. But there is certainly something in the back-story we'd have enjoyed discovering.

(Side note: "Our Mrs. Reynolds" is an utter gem, and I remember this every time I watch it. Christina is now on "Mad Men," showing off her old-fashioned figure and entrancing a new group of men, non-sci-fi fans who don't know what they missed. I'm hoping to make a convert or two.)

bun
Frisky Browncoat
Capt. Mal's birthday is Sept. 20
I planted a cake...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Save the fireflies! Minimize outdoor lighting so the boys can find the girls!!

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Sunday, September 2, 2007 6:17 PM

MAEKCHU

Interesting theory but I lean more toward the school of thought that Book was an ex-operative. Remember the conversation Book has with Mal on Haven?

Book is a man of belief and conviction. Much like the operative in Serenity, Book used to believe in the Alliance but something changed him and he turned his beliefs to God and becoming a Shepherd. Just my thoughts anyway. I hope someday we'll find out the real story behind Shepherd Book.

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