Imponderable Water Cooler - Fire and Ice by JonnyQuest

Hey guys! Sorry I haven't gotten to be on a whole lot recently, what with learning to drive and school and all...I'll catch up soon, but as of now I haven't really read all the posts...

Quote:
Did you know that yesterday (February 21) 1986, Nintendo released the original Legend of Zelda? Just thought that was a cool fact.

Definitely the best nintendo games ever are the Zelda ones. Especially the N64 games. Ocarina of Time was one of the first video games I ever beat on my own.

Um, about feminism and all, I think that the majority of them are just trying to get attention by making it seem like they're being degraded and put down all the time, when in reality there is not a whole lot of that going on now. And a lot of times when it is, the sexist people are the ones who most people see as the one in the wrong. I mean sure there will always be those who judge others by stuff like race or gender and all, but it's not like it was years ago when people would get killed or arrested for not doing anything really wrong, and it wasn't seen as wrong because they were female or a different race. So what I guess I'm trying to say is that we schouldn't be so pissed about that sorta thing when we know that it has been so much worse in the past. And YinYang, I agree with you that most really strict feminists today don't want the same status as men, they want better ones.

Sorry for the ramblings, but I'm really tired...I think I need to go to sleep soon....

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Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:00 PM

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverIsMyGoddess:
Quote:
Originally posted by LittleAlbatross29:
RIMG - So you've got a thing for fire- witches ?

Well, you and Rose are both in that category, and both of you do it for me, so naturally by logic it seems to be the case. Maybe the experimentation field is too small though, and with too many factors.

I guess I need to find more cute Browncoat fire witches to test the theory on (trying to keep as many of the variables constant as I can).

~jimi
SFC Alexander, Chief Medic for the 76th Indepentent Army Battalion
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.

Oh darn it!! I am a Light Witch!!

Never mind...

You are a Light Witch! You are more powerful than witches of the Four Material Elements, but at first glance, its hard to tell. Ever calm and innocent, your soul shines bright and pure, and even the humans can see it. Though many may mistake you as a goody goody, you know otherwise. You fight to maintain the balance of nature, that above all else. Honor and duty are your driving force, and if that means you have to kill a thousand men, well... looks like you'll be leaving a lot of lonely women in your wake.Common Powers: Telekinesis- the ability to move objects with ones mind Invisibility- the ability to be unseenTelepathy- the ability to read thoughts, and plant them.Premonition- the ability to see the past or future.Light weaving- the ability to conjure and control light creatures, objects, and spells that nothing can destroy or kill but the user.

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"I can put one foot in front of the other - I'm Magdalena, & I'm marching with the 76th" http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:05 PM

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"

Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
And (greetings) to Magda and Tristan who have left us to find that tropical paradise we'll all inhabit together someday.

Nah - I just don't get on line too much these days Jonny!! But I must say it is lovely to get in here for the first time in weeks and find that I am not forgotten!!!

Oh - and if I ever find a tropical paradise with Tristan in it... you will not be inhabiting it one little bit!!

...but I'll still come and visit you where ever you might live!

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"I can put one foot in front of the other - I'm Magdalena, & I'm marching with the 76th" http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:13 PM

WRATCHIT

Never compliment! Oh and

lie, lie, and lie some more!

Does the lion ask for its dinner? NO! He takes it!

__________________________________________________
Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?
www.bikerplanet.net

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:16 PM

Hehe, DTH, I like those quizilla things way too much.

You are an Earth Witch! The Material Element of Earth is at your command. You feel out of your skin when confined to the indoors but instantly feel better once your bare feet are touching the Earth you love so much. You nurture all things you feel need nurturing and don't care what people think of you for it. Blunt to the point of having no tact, you don't like to beat around the bush, no pun intended. It takes a lot to get you riled up, but Goddess help the poor soul who gets to you. They'll probably end up 6 feet under... or deeper.

Common Powers:
Geokinesis- the ability to move rock and metal with one's mind
Florakinesis- the ability to control trees, plants, and flowers with one's mind
Healing touch- the ability to heal another person with their touch
Shapeshifting- the ability to take on the form and abilities of another
http://www.quizilla.com/users/ChildofChaosAndDarkness/quizzes/What%20k
ind%20of%20witch%20are%20you%3F/

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Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:38 PM

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"

...or is it just me?

Edit - I meant that rambling stuff... sorry... I'll just... OH that is so sweet to Asorta - it's good to see you here!! When I have the opportunity to pop in I rarely meet up with anyone coz of the time difference!!

And I am as addicted to these quizes as you are Honey!!

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"I can put one foot in front of the other - I'm Magdalena, & I'm marching with the 76th" http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:40 PM

HELL'S KITTEN

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Soooo much to say.......
Type away, if you would be so kind.

And

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
(Pokes HK lightly with a tree branch)

Please. Anything you say can help claify for those with any confusion.

Since you asked and... heh... poked...

First, I am not a feminazi.
Nor am I even a feminist.

But then again, I don't have to be, because the women who came before me did all the heavy lifting.

The roots of feminism are as a movement based around the conviction that biological sex should not be the pre-determinant factor shaping a person's social identity or socio-political or economic rights.

The accomplishments of the feminist movement include women's suffrage (right to vote!!), broad employment for women at more equitable wages, the right to initiate divorce proceedings and the introduction of "no fault" divorce, the right to obtain contraception and safe abortions, and the right to university education.

Think about NOT having these things now. These are things many take for granted these days. And as time goes on, I hope more and more people take these things for granted, as if there was never any other imaginable way for people to be.

Note that there are no distinctions made between different ethnicities. It championed women because it had to; there was no need to champion men as they already had these things.

Quote:
(YingYang)the word feminism, for me, suggests that women are better than men.

This was never the intent. This notion is a perversion of the movement by the extremists. You know the ones... "Down with the controlling, oppressive patriarchy blah-dee-blah-blah, castrate 'em all, blah, blah blah" insane feminists. It was never - and is not now - about being better than anyone. It's about not being less than.

Quote:
(YingYang, underlinies by HK)Equality is a good thing, yes, and the feminism you're describing doesn't seem to me to be true feminism, or feminism the way I think of it

And this... this breaks my heart. (Um. IF I had one.) I can't fathom how this view of yours came to be. Is it, maybe, a result of the fact that first and second wave of feminists acheived so much good for us, that anything more these days seems like over-compensation or "entitlement"? As if there's no longer a need for feminism? Cuz, I can understand that....

But letting extremists or current comforts bastardize the original meaning and purpose behind feminism is a shame.

Then came this

Quote:
Originally posted by asortafairytale:
Um, about feminism and all, I think that the majority of them are just trying to get attention by making it seem like they're being degraded and put down all the time, when in reality there is not a whole lot of that going on now.

You know... I'm actually fucking speechless right now. Not angry. Just incredulous. There's "not a whole lot of that going on now," until it happens to you. Jeeeezus, I suddenly feel old.

Sorry.
I gotta go.
Something is really not right, here; I don't think I can continue this without sounding like a raving lunatic, or worse, like those insane feminist extremists with entitlement issues that I rail against.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Just incredulous. There's "not a whole lot of that going on now," until it happens to you. Jeeeezus, I suddenly feel old

I'm really really sorry if I offended you HK. I promise that I didn't mean it!!

I am totally aware that there is a lot of crap in that area nowadays. All I was trying to say was that there is so much less than there was in, say the Middle ages or Victorian times or something. I honestly didn't mean it to sound like I didn't care about people who are still being discriminated against! Sorry...I'm terrible at attempting to get my point across...

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Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:08 PM

"No power in the 'verse can stop me!"

Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hell's Kitten:
Soooo much to say.......
Type away, if you would be so kind.
And
Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
(Pokes HK lightly with a tree branch)

Please. Anything you say can help claify for those with any confusion.
Since you asked and... heh... poked...

First, I am not a feminazi.
Nor am I even a feminist.

But then again, I don't have to be, because the women who came before me did all the heavy lifting.

The roots of feminism are as a movement based around the conviction that biological sex should not be the pre-determinant factor shaping a person's social identity or socio-political or economic rights.

The accomplishments of the feminist movement include women's suffrage (right to vote!!), broad employment for women at more equitable wages, the right to initiate divorce proceedings and the introduction of "no fault" divorce, the right to obtain contraception and safe abortions, and the right to university education.

Think about NOT having these things now. These are things many take for granted these days. And as time goes on, I hope more and more people take these things for granted, as if there was never any other imaginable way for people to be.

Note that there are no distinctions made between different ethnicities. It championed women because it had to; there was no need to champion men as they already had these things.
Quote:
(YingYang)the word feminism, for me, suggests that women are better than men.
This was never the intent. This notion is a perversion of the movement by the extremists. You know the ones... "Down with the controlling, oppressive patriarchy blah-dee-blah-blah, castrate 'em all, blah, blah blah" insane feminists. It was never - and is not now - about being better than anyone. It's about not being less than.
Quote:
(YingYang, underlinies by HK)Equality is a good thing, yes, and the feminism you're describing doesn't seem to me to be true feminism, or feminism the way I think of it
And this... this breaks my heart. (Um. IF I had one.) I can't fathom how this view of yours came to be. Is it, maybe, a result of the fact that first and second wave of feminists acheived so much good for us, that anything more these days seems like over-compensation or "entitlement"? As if there's no longer a need for feminism? Cuz, I can understand that....

But letting extremists or current comforts bastardize the original meaning and purpose behind feminism is a shame.

Then came this
Quote:
Originally posted by asortafairytale:
Um, about feminism and all, I think that the majority of them are just trying to get attention by making it seem like they're being degraded and put down all the time, when in reality there is not a whole lot of that going on now.
You know... I'm actually fucking speechless right now. Not angry. Just incredulous. There's "not a whole lot of that going on now," until it happens to you. Jeeeezus, I suddenly feel old.

Sorry.
I gotta go.
Something is really not right, here; I don't think I can continue this without sounding like a raving lunatic, or worse, like those insane feminist extremists with entitlement issues that I rail against.

It's funny but for many years I have referred to myself as an 'equalitarian' because I grew up in an era when feminism was all about being tough as hob nail boots and completly insensitive and 'women are better than men' from my point of view too! But I now find myself, along with Hells Kitten thinking that things are wrong if we don't recognise that there are still issues to be aware of, and there are still many things that need to be put right... but then I think I'll start to sound like my chain-smoking primary school teacher who believed she had a right to smoke in the classroom all day... or my Legal Ed teacher who would mark me down if I tried to have an educated debate on our different points of view when I was at high school... those are the women who put me off using the title 'Ms', as they were the first two women I met with that title and they were both hard line bitches - and I really do think they were bitter and hard and had lost a lot of the joy in life - unfortunately they did little if nothing at all to mould the minds and hearts of the 'young women' in their care!

My grade 5 teacher - Miss Woods (whom I would ove to get in touch with again one day if I had the slightest clue how to do that) was feminine, gentle and strong... she gave me a sense of self worth and told me that my gifts and talents were every bit as important as those that were more highly celebrated in others, like athleticism and maths abilities! She had an impact I still thank her for to this day!

There is feminism in many forms and sometimes it is pushed in a misguided way - one which does 'the cause' no good IMO... but I agree with HK that we can't dismiss it as just being militant and/or outdated!

Wow - when I get in here for real - you guys get me thinking on things!!

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"I can put one foot in front of the other - I'm Magdalena, & I'm marching with the 76th" http://76thbattalion.homestead.com/index.html

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:12 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by nvghostrider:
it seems harder and harder to find a woman who can love me in spite of it all.

I homed in on this because it's the wrong way to think about things. You don't look for someone who can love you 'in spite of' anything, you look for someone who can love everything.
For example, I feel now that there have been several people in my life who have loved me 'in spite of' my temper/religious views/cuddlebug syndrom/compulsions/babbling/bluntness... pick anything. Know what? It hasn't lasted. Smiling, nodding, and saying "Yeah, I love you anyway" is now a one-way ticket to the curb, I have decided. I don't need that. I don't need someone to just 'put up with' some of the things I am because they 'love' me, I just need someone to love me.
Even when certain things about people I've dated have irritated me, I tried to understand, come to terms with, and love that part of them, because otherwise I didn't love them. Sometimes I couldn't accept something. One time in particular, I had to end things because neither of us really loved the other; we were just putting up with things. That's not acceptable to me.

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
I shouldn't have to make less money than a man, feel "less than" because I don't want kids, feel like I have to be keeper of the hearth and home, have to be the nuturer, etc. But, that should be okay for women who want that. That's true feminism to me: letting women choose who they want to be and not pinning roles and expectations on them.

And the same should go for men. They should be able to choose who they want to be and not be pigeon-holed into the unfeeling provider role. They want to be a homemaker, more power to 'em.

Well said.

And I don't just test as a fire witch, I am one. Just... wanted to clarify.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:17 PM

Okay, well, I'm gonna go for tonight. Bye guys!
And once again I'm sorry if I managed to come off as a jerk in one post. It wasn't purposefully.

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 6:32 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

I'm not looking at feminism from a historical perspective; I'm looking at it from a here and now. And, here and now, we no longer have to be so pro-woman, although I do think there are still a few cultural ideas that need to be shifted, and a few things related to the workplace. I hope that it has been established that women lack no severe deficits because of their anatomy or choice of lifestyle, and that this is no longer the battle it was even thirty or forty years ago.

I am grateful to anyone who came before me - Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mohandus Gandhi, etc. There are a lot of things that history has given us all - just a couple of hours ago, I was thinking about the telephone, and how amazing it is that we can transfer auditory information through cables to each other. Or, y'know, this typing I'm doing? Yeah.

Having said that, though, and acknowledging that history is wonderful and rich and magnificent even as it teaches us about what not to do, there are a lot of things that need to be better. And I do not feel that I am belittling the ones who have come before me, but in fact want to do things to continue the good. History of all sorts is important, but moving ahead is also important.

I am very sheltered. I have a pretty good life. The bulk of the things I talk about and am interested it, I have absolutely no experience with, and am simply trying to draw logical conclusions from what I know. I don't know what two people in a romantic relationship feel like - it is absolutely foreign to me, the insane things that people will put up with to stay with "the one they love." I pretty much have about as much actual life experience as someone far younger than I. Everything that I've said about feminism (or pretty much anything else) can be ignored, or disregarded, because I'm not really sure if I'm right.

The first person singular pronoun makes me feel selfish. Ugh. Sleepy-time now would be good.

P.S. Apparently I'm a fire witch.

And, I'm out.

Rules and voting: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:33 PM

CALIFORNIAKAYLEE

Just popping in to agree with HK on this one. I've never categorized myself as a feminist, but my experience working in an industry that is less than 10% female has shown me that there are areas where there are still huge inequalities. I'm pretty sure that HellsKitten works in an industry with a similar male/female ratio, so I totally see where she's coming from. In my industry, it's an accepted fact that women cannot do the job as well as men -- and this isn't physically taxing work we're talking about here. I've never worked with another woman in my line of work. Women are routinely run out of the industry if they want to have a family, or indeed any life at all outside of work. There are very few women in senior positions, and none who have achieved any sort of notoriety.

I've been lucky enough in my career that I've mostly managed to surround myself with good people who are more interested in the work than in what's between your coworker's legs. I've also worked my way into a network of strong women who have come to accept the fact that if you want to succeed in this industry, you have to work harder and smarter than your male coworkers every single day of your career -- but not so much better than them that they start to resent you -- just so that they will accept that despite being a woman, you can maybe, barely hack it.

What I love about this group is that they don't talk about how unfair the business is, or how difficult it is to be a woman in this industry. Instead, we organize efforts to get more teenaged girls interested in this line of work, figuring that the higher we can push that percentage of women, the more fair the industry will become. And we organize "Quality of Life" discussions, and include our male colleagues in these discussions. On the face of it, it's about fair pay and humane work hours for everyone, but we all know that the best way to change the reality that a woman's career in this industry is over if she takes maternity leave, is to make it acceptable and normal for a man to take paternity leave.

So, what do you think? Do you think I work in an environment that doesn't require the feminist mind set? Ten years ago, the percentage of women was below 5%, and those women had to fight to get the men to take their pictures of topless women down off the walls of their cubicles. Should those women not have applied feminist ideals to their work places?

But all that aside, I think we often forget that just because the status of women in the US and other "western" countries has improved so dramatically over the past century, doesn't mean that women the world over have achieved equality. Baby girls routinely killed in China, ritual genital mutilation in the Middle East, "bride burning" in India, denial of access to education the world over... Just because a woman in the US can choose a suit instead of an apron -- and get paid $0.70 for every $1 a man makes for doing the exact same job -- doesn't mean that feminism has no place in the 21st century. We can't sit back and think that what the women who came before us did was enough. It's not. We have to continue to fight to make the world a better, less violent, more open place for the next generation of women, both our daughters and all daughters worldwide.

http://www.un.org/womenwatch/
http://www.equalitynow.org/english/campaigns/campaigns_en.html

~CK

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:40 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by CaliforniaKaylee:
http://www.equalitynow.org/english/campaigns/campaigns_en.html

Quote:
Originally said by Joss Whedon
I'm surrounded, tonight, by people of extraordinary courage. And I know a thing or two about courage myself, because I read a book with some courage in it, one time, and, ah, it sounds really like a lotta work, so I'll just keep writing.

I write. The most courageous thing I've ever done is something called a press junket, which is actually pretty courageous, believe me, because they ask you the same questions over and over and over.

And over and over and over.

I've done as many as 48 in a day, these interviews, and they really, they don't come up with the fresh stuff. So, there is one question that I've been asked almost every time I've been interviewed, so I thought tonight, briefly, I would share with you one question, and a few of my responses, because when you're asked something 500 times, you really start to think about the answer.

So now I will become a reporter. It's going to be amazing, the transformation.

So, Joss, I, a reporter, would like to know, why do you always write these strong women characters?

I think it's because of my mother. She really was an extraordinary, inspirational, tough, cool, sexy, funny woman. And that's the kind of woman I've always surrounded myself with. It's my friends, particularly my wife, who is not only smarter and stronger than I am, but occasionally, actually taller too. But only sometimes - taller. And, I think it all goes back to my mother.

So, why do you write these strong women characters?

Because of my father. My father and my step-father had a lot do with it, because they prized wit and resolve in the women they were with, above all things, and they were among the rare men who understood that recognising somebody else's power does not diminish your own. When I created Buffy, I wanted to create a female icon but I also wanted to be very careful to surround her with men who not only had no problem with the idea of a female leader, but were in fact, engaged and even attracted to the idea. That came from my father and step-father, the men who created this man, who created those men, if you can follow that."

Joss tries on a French/Spanish accent for the next sentence -

So, why do you create these strong... how you say—the women...

'Cause I'm in Europe, now, so it's a very... it's international. I don't know where, though...

Strong women characters?

Well, because these stories give people strength, and I've heard it from a number of people, and I've felt it myself. And it's not just women, it's men. And I think there is something particular about a female protagonist that allows a man to identify with her, that opens up something that he might - an aspect of himself that he might be unable to express, hopes and desires that he might be uncomfortable expressing through a male identification figure, so it really crosses across both and I think it really helps people, you know, in that way.

So, why do you create these strong women characters?

Cause they're hot.

But...these strong women characters...

Why are you even asking me this?

This is like interview number 50 in a row. How is it possible that this is even a question? Honestly? Seriously? Why are you ask - why did you write that down? Why do you - why aren't you asking a hundred other guys why they don't write strong women characters?!

I believe that what I'm doing should not be remarked upon, let alone honored, and there are other people doing it. But seriously, this question is ridiculous. And you've just got to stop.

So... why do you write these strong women characters?

Because equality is not a concept. It's not something we should be striving for. It's a necessity. Equality is like gravity. We need it to stand on this earth as men and women. And the misogyny that is in every culture is not a true part of the human condition. It is life out of balance, and that imbalance is sucking something out of the soul of every man and woman who is confronted with it.

We need equality. Kinda now.

So, why do you write these strong female characters?

Because you're still asking me that question.

That's all I can say, because he aready said it better than I ever could.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 4:09 AM

MAVOURNEEN

Good Morning, everyone.

I missed the entire feminism exchange last night...but did anyone catch that Wimbeldon just this week agreed to pay women's winners the same as men's winners?
Last week, the women were paid less than the men for the exact same contest.

(On a side note, the US Open made winnings equal back in the 70's...)

Feminism is important. Feminism is necessary. Feminism is needed. Right now, in 2007.
I want to be recognized for my talents and abilities in the same way a man would be. I want my daughter (if I had one) to have the same opportunities that boys have.

Feminism that is male bashing is wrong. Everyone would agree with that.

JQ, when you go through life identified as "the woman with the long red hair" it is hard NOT to be defined by a physical trait. And in actuality, that part I have learned to embrace. Eventually. But (when I was younger) I couldn't go to a bar without some drunk making lecherous comments...not about me but about my frakkin' hair...or walk down the street without some guy yelling "Hey Red!" -that's when my hair color became an issue.
And I dyed it brown and cut it short for a while back in college because of that.

Coffee. Growing Cold. Need...more...

*opens her desk drawer and shows DTH there is still a 1/2 bag of apricots left...*

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Friday, February 23, 2007 5:06 AM

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

Wow, this is great!

I actually anyone here has said anything different in substance from anyone else, it just a matter of focus.

CK, thanks for chiming in, partly because I, at least, haven't seen you around much lately. I think it's extemely important not to forget the issues at stake are alive and well and still gnawing. I also believe that there have been extremists that have brought a lot of bad sentiments over time.

HK mentioned the first and second waves and Magda (hi, sweetheart!) offered up the word militant. Race and religion have also been brought into the discussion, as well as history and current world affairs. PR beautifully punctuated the discussion with Joss's speech. (Waves to YinYang and Asorta; I don't think either of you is wrong. I think you are looking at what's been presented to you, by intelligent design in some cases, by unintentional example in others, and have drawn the conclusions that seemed right.)

I'm a guy. Some of you already know that. I leer and scratch and would suggest that the appropriate respond to naked pictures of women on display would be to hang naked pictures of men. (But I'm smart enough not to because of the off-putting--read "intimidating and therefore counter-productive"--that would be.)

There are parallels between the Civil Rights Movement and Women's Liberation Movement. Nobody ever talks about "Women's Lib" anymore. On the one hand there was the Emancipation Proclamation; on the other was Women's Sufferage. Then there came for both a period of Decade! of...stagnation on the part of the "movements" and actually ASortA (sorry, couldn't resist) retrograde slippage. Thankfully there were Big Wars and Depression and Fear that took up all of our attention, so it was alright to not notice.

Then in the sixties and seventies the pent up aggression of those decades could no longer be contained by society's good behavior contraints and both movements, riding on a crest of anti-war sentiments and cultural revolution, exploded--sadly, literally in many cases--indelibly onto the American consciousness (and I can only speak for things over here; I assume some sort of parallels existed elsewhere on the globe). At that time, being "militant" was sometimes, often, the only way to be heard.

Now, decades have passed again and we take stock and find that we are indeed lacking equal equality. There is still a place for feminism. Militant feminism? Maybe not. Extremist feminism? Extremist anything is bad. Man-bashing, entitlement-seeking, self-agrandizing feminism? Hmmm. Not usually a good thing.

Let me draw another parallel that is sure to enflame at least someone's ire (or fire) out there somehwhere. With the possible exception of Hell's Kitten, I think we can agree that cruelty to animals is a bad thing. (HK would ask us to carefully define cruelty and offer up some blah blah about means to an end.) So anyway we have the Humane Society of the United States, the American Society to Prevent Cruelty to Animals and the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. All three are ostensibly working and sacrificing toward the same goals. While HSUS and ASPCA seem kind of indistinguishable on the surface, PETA has made a name for itself precisely by being distinguished, albeit in a frequently unseemly and ungainly fashion. Whether or not the individual members are, the organization is perceived as extremist and militant in the worst conotations of either of those words.

What I hear everyone hear saying is there are good feminists and bad feminists (and even feminists who aren't feminists, just like being gay doesn't automatically make you an gay activist, although there are some that swear it does.) What has happened over time is that the perceived militant (arguably necessarily so) feminist mindset of the past, is often mistaken for the current feminism. The White Male as overlord (I for one welcome our new...waitaminnit) was threatened and has become fearful. The mention of the word feminist struck fear into their hearts and still does for some. And that is where the heart of the feminazi confusion comes from. It's still pervasive, if not overtly so.

EDIT: Mavs, look, I'm sorry about that. If I'd known it wuz you back then, I never woulda...aw, hell...

"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:06 AM

RUGBUG

Wow, there has been some great discussion while I was sans computer.

And not suprisingly, I agree with the majority...feminism isn't a dirty word and is still a problem.

Mav, that's interesting about Wimbledon. And in some ways, I may be able to understand different winnings for men and women, if those winnings were related to revenue. Male sports bring in more revenue. They always have. But isn't that part of the problem?

Why are the professional leagues of soccer, basketball, softball (is there one?) for women so pathetically attended/supported. People don't attend, or tune in, so advertisers aren't interested. After the US Women won the World Cup, the pro league experience some unprecedented attendence/support. That quickly faded. The WNBA? Heh...a joke. WHY exactly is that?

One of the reasons I LOVE riding is that it is one of the ONLY sports where men and women compete against each other on absolutely equal grounds. I can't even think of another. They compete for the same purses, over the same courses, one after another. There is no gender separation. That's not to say men and women ride exactly the same, 'cause they don't (you often hear of horses being a 'man's ride' or a 'ladies mount') but they compete equally.

This world is still patriarchal. Someone needs to envision what it would be like if it was gender neutral. What would the business industry look like if it was constructed by women? Would the working day be 8-5 with little flexibility, or would it allow for flex time so woman...and men...could take care of family obligations? I'm not saying it would necessarily be better, but it would business would certainly be different. Until a woman can run a company how she chooses and still compete equally with the men, we have places to go and things to accomplish.

(On a WAY off topic side note: Mav, I understand you about the hair. For me, it's dimples. I've always been noticed for my dimples/smile. As a child it was embarrassing and...common? Now as an adult, I would be sad if they went away. They kind of define my face. It's still a little embarassing to be told you have cute dimples as a 35 year old, but they're me, so....)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:12 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Good Morning, everyone.

I missed the entire feminism exchange last night...but did anyone catch that Wimbeldon just this week agreed to pay women's winners the same as men's winners?
Last week, the women were paid less than the men for the exact same contest.

(On a side note, the US Open made winnings equal back in the 70's...)

See that still doesn't strike me as feminism. That should just be a matter of economics. If the female events bring in more viewers then they should get paid more. If they bring in less viewers then they should get paid less. That seems more equal than just paying everyone the same to try to save face.

Same thing goes for the WNBA. I heard people on the radio complaining about how different the salaries are. Sorry, but they just don't bring in the viewers that the NBA does.

Fact is men and women are not created equal. We need to get over the everything you can do I can do mentality and just accept that we all have gifts that are equally necessary.

OK I'm done on this topic cause it just seems to lead to arguments.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:29 AM

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
a really deep dark auburn with some crazy buttery blond highlights, cute dimples, 35 year old, I LOVE riding; I seem to always find myself attracted to dark-haired, light eyed skinny guys.I used to be all about the blond, blued eyed type.

Sounds like a personal ad to me. (Okay so you're blond again, can't get over the auburn. Ask Mav.)

"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:34 AM

RIVERISMYGODDESS

mornin' everyone. missed y'all yesterday (I was out sick)

I am staying out of the feminism/equal right discussion for the most part, save one arguement I always make (everything else has been mentioned, and if this has and I missed it, I apologize):

I am completely for equal rights/pay/privileges, but I think it also means equal responsibility. The only one area this ever irked me in was the signing of the selective service card when you turn 18. When women are required to, just as men are, then I think we will be closer to true equality.

I hope you are all having a good and shiny Friday.

~jimi
SFC Alexander, Chief Medic for the 76th Indepentent Army Battalion
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:39 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
a really deep dark auburn with some crazy buttery blond highlights, cute dimples, 35 year old, I LOVE riding; I seem to always find myself attracted to dark-haired, light eyed skinny guys.I used to be all about the blond, blued eyed type.

Sounds like a personal ad to me. (Okay so you're blond again, can't get over the auburn. Ask Mav.)

Hey wait...I never wrote that! You cut and paster, you.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:44 AM

MAVOURNEEN

I must agree that salaries should be commensurate with attendance, etc. Sad but true, in the US men's sports have better attendance and viewing, which leads to higher advertising. Which I can see could commanding a higher salary. I'm okay with that part. Zeek is right, that's simple economics.

But in the case of Wimbledon... we're talking winnings. Winning a contest. Winning a sporting event where the athelete is not paid a salary but is paid in winnings.

Interestingly, I just thought of NASCAR while writing this. Women have yet to break into the sport successfully, but when one does win a race, she would be paid the exact same purse as anyone else (men) who won that day.

Rugbug also has a point about horses - in racing, there are successful female jockeys. They receive the same amount of money if they win a race that a man would win.

Women's golf is definitely a sport where, unfortunately, winning a match does not equate to men's winnings. It does not fit the mold of tennis, NASCAR, or horse racing where winnings are equal.

EDIT: RIMG- So glad to see you. And I totally agree with you. Women should be required to sign that card at 18.
JQ- Cutting and pasting thread responses?? For shame. You know better than that. Wait, maybe you don't. You still hotlink.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:47 AM

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Hey wait...I never wrote that! You cut and paster, you.

Every word was yours. I only deleted some. For, er, space. Yeah, space...

HK knows my editing well. Heh, heh, heh.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
JQ- Cutting and pasting thread responses?? For shame. You know better than that. Wait, maybe you don't. You still hotlink.

I do know better. On both counts. I just don't know how bad "bad" is in the second case. It's bad if you hotlink on a high traffic board. I get that. But is that us?

As fer cuttin' and pastin', as long as the original thought's intact, where's the foul? Hmmm?

"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:47 AM

MSG

Don't have time to read the posts or post...super busy must get all grades done, plus had two kids arrested and must do 2 separate 4 page legal documents for them, plus I have to teach...so hope you have a good day:)

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:52 AM

RIVERISMYGODDESS

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Don't have time to read the posts or post...super busy must get all grades done, plus had two kids arrested and must do 2 separate 4 page legal documents for them, plus I have to teach...so hope you have a good day:)

You teach middle-schoolers, right ? Yeesh.

I was in court today and one guy showed up drunk for his aggressive driving charge. Drunk. Got his ass locked up for 4 days.

Good luck with your kids and the teaching and all that.

~jimi
SFC Alexander, Chief Medic for the 76th Indepentent Army Battalion
In the beginning the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry and is widely considered as a bad move.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 6:57 AM

"Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?"

Quote:
Originally posted by msg:
Don't have time to read the posts or post...

Know you won't get this until it's too late. I'm thinkin' about you and hopin' it all goes "well", as well as it can.

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverIsMyGoddess:
I was in court today and one guy showed up drunk for his aggressive driving charge. Drunk. Got his ass locked up for 4 days.

I love stuff like that!

Um, we trust you were there on unrelated business?

"Well, here I am...Does that seem right to you?"

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Friday, February 23, 2007 7:22 AM

NVGHOSTRIDER

I have to thank HK for swtating her point and some history on the struggles of women for equality. I still see a massive step ahead, but all you fine women seem to be doing well in all of your individual efforts. Any action in a good way more than proves to those needing proof that women have always been the equal counterpart of us males.
I still have a problem in my workplace. I am the minority. I have had to prove myself to women every day. I love the women I work with and for, but in a field dominated by women and leery of men (men are the main offenders) it is no easy thing.

Gottajet. I get to train my people today. Hooray!

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Friday, February 23, 2007 7:41 AM

MAVOURNEEN

Quote:
Originally posted by JonnyQuest:
I do know better. On both counts. I just don't know how bad "bad" is in the second case. It's bad if you hotlink on a high traffic board. I get that. But is that us?

On Why Hotlinking Is Bad, Right Clicked and Copied from altlab.com by Maura (that's Mav to you...)

Quote:
What is hotlinking and bandwidth theft?
Bandwidth theft or "hotlinking" is direct linking to a web site's files (images, video, etc.). An example would be using an tag to display a JPEG image you found on someone else's web page so it will appear on your own site, eBay auction listing, weblog, forum message post, etc.

Bandwidth refers to the amount of data transferred from a web site to a user's computer. When you view a web page, you are using that site's bandwidth to display the files. Since web hosts charge based on the amount of data transferred, bandwidth is an issue. If a site is over its monthly bandwidth, it's billed for the extra data or taken offline.

A simple analogy for bandwidth theft: Imagine a random stranger plugging into your electrical outlets, using your electricity without your consent, and you paying for it.

EDIT: We still love you, despite your lawlessness.

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Friday, February 23, 2007 7:42 AM

MSG

I decided I deserved a 10 min break ( in place of lunch) and read the posts) WOW, but as we are in thread overload, I' starting a new one so we can keep this going:)

NEW THREAD!!!!

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=27244

"I'm not all that interested in the mental health of people who want to kill me. "- Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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Friday, February 23, 2007 8:04 AM