Last Episode by Lawman

That does make sense. Now, i'm gonna have to watch objects in space again. not one of my favorite episodes, but i may have to revisit that issue. it would have been neat to see nischka and early in future episodes. i'm hopeful.

everybody dies alone

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Monday, March 12, 2007 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by daveshayne:
The Message was the last episode filmed but Objects in Space is the final episode. Trash imdeiately preceeds The Message and Heart of Gold goes right before Objects in Space.

If you're a purist like me, you'll have to watch them in their 'Verse-chronological order, with The Message last. In 'Verse time, it takes place after OiS (hence the "mind reading genius who can't eat an ice planet" remark). Plus, I think The Message has more punch as a last episode.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 12:07 PM

now you gone and done it. i forgot about that comment jayne makes in the last message. so does that mean hearts of gold takes place much earlier, even before trash? i guess i'm taking inara's comments/behavior pretty seriously about her leaving. i can't wait for the new serenity dvd coming out with some more commentary. boy, wouldn't it be great if this is some grand presentation to tell everyone that firefly series is going to be continued on another cable channel, SciFi, G1, Spike, or even the hallmark channel....

everyone dies alone.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 12:14 PM

As far as I know (and I hope other, more knowledgeable Firefly fans are about) the rest of the episodes are in 'Verse-chronological order (other than OiS and The Message, obviously).

Hmmm...how to ask...

Just curious about your calling it "Last Message" or "The Last Message." On my set, it's "The Message." Perhaps you're one of our international Browncoats? I know that the episode titles come out slightly differently when translated out of--and then back into--English.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 12:16 PM

IMO Heart of Gold is the last episode.

I really don't get how OiS could have ever been intended to be last. Unless Fox really really really messed with things. I mean they even changed the episode for the dvds to put in the part about Inara leaving instead of the way that conversation went when the episode aired.

Besides when I got my hands on the unaired episodes they were listed in order of trash, the message then heart of gold.

Though I accept the order of the dvds because it doesn't really change much either way.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 12:20 PM

ooops, my bad. just a lapsis de lingua.
it is the message. maybe that's just how i remember that episode.
also, query: only mal and zoe are browncoats. the rest are not. why do firefly fans call themselves browncoats?

everybody dies alone

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Monday, March 12, 2007 12:29 PM

now im' rethinking the whole order of events.
by the time serenity movie takes place, its 6 months after the last episode. which i really imagined was heart of gold. but i do get the issue re: mind reader comment that jayne makes in the message. its hard to wrap the mind around small inconsistencies with chronological order.also, what does verse mean? universe or the poetic semblance of spoken language?

money was too good

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Monday, March 12, 2007 1:18 PM

TDBROWN

Do any of you have the Box Set of DVDs? Joss has them arranged in the order that HE says is the proper chronological order, with OiS Last. It does make sense, because River overhears Mal and Inara's conversation about her leaving, and hears Inara ask if Mal has "told anyone yet". Yes, Jayne made the "Mind readin' genius" crack in The Message, but in OiS he says, "Do you mean she Really reads minds?", and acts surprised.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Monday, March 12, 2007 1:25 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I mean they even changed the episode for the dvds to put in the part about Inara leaving instead of the way that conversation went when the episode aired.

I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. They changed that scene in the aired version because Heart of Gold didn't air and Inara leaving all of a sudden didn't make sense out of context. Now it is certainly possible that had the series continued that Trash and The Message might have come after Objects in Space - perhaps with material relating to Inara's decision to leave Serenity worked into the shows - but also possibly not. Firefly wouldn't be the first show to shoot episodes out of order.

David

"Not completely as well as the series of Firefly..." - From a review of Serenity at amazon.de

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Monday, March 12, 2007 1:38 PM

CAPTAINCOUPI

Shouldn't this be over with the Episode Discussion threads?

TDBrown's right. Joss put the episodes in the correct order in the box set.

The Message clearly comes directly after Trash as there is all the talk about fencing the Lasiter. Inara seems at ease with the crew and Mal and even tries to take an active part in fencing the goods.

Then we get Heart of Gold. It is the events in this episode including Mal and Nandi's little liaison that pushed Inara to leave.

Finally Objects in Space. Inara has made the decision and Mal knows but the rest of the crew has to be told yet. We see their discussion about this in the teaser. We also know that this is the last episode as in the commentary Joss talks about this being the point where River is finally accepted by everyone despite the suspicion that she is a reader and possibly a weapon of the Alliance.

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http://www.bigdamnthankyou.com/

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Monday, March 12, 2007 1:42 PM

ois does make some sense being last episode. i've been watching the series over and over again. i need to redouble my efforts and concentrate more on the conversations between crew in ois again. thanks for all the comments.

money was too good

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Monday, March 12, 2007 2:14 PM

DARKJESTER

I guess I take the the DVDs at face value, and see "Objects In Space" as the final episode. Inara's comment about leaving at the end of "Heart of Gold" plays into her "I just don't want to draw this out" and Mal's "Have you decided when you'll tell the others?" at the beginning of "Objects in Space".

That exchange wasn't in the broadcast version of the episode, because no-one had heard her say "I'm leaving", because no-one had seen "Heart of Gold".
Instead, before the "I'm a big girl, just tell me" line, Mal and Inara are talking about her not being able to get any work of late and it being Mal's fault (kind of like in Trash) and she comments "You are unreal! I don't know why I haven't left already".

And I see "Objects in Space" as being where River's position in the crew is finally resolved with her scene with Mal after he disposes of Jubal Early. After she asks "Permission to come aboard?" (showing her lucidity, and acknowledging his captaincy) he banters with her, then gives her an assignment (like a member of his crew) to go and see to her brother. And we see her repaired relationship with Kaylee in their game of jacks. Joss wrote and directed it, and it seems to be a perfect ending of the story arc. And, unfortunately, the series.

Edit to add: advice to everyone - try not to take half an hour to post a response! You'll find others have made every single point you're making ten minutes before you!

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

http://www.fireflytalk.com - Big Damn Podcast

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Monday, March 12, 2007 2:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by CaptainCoupi:
TDBrown's right. Joss put the episodes in the correct order in the box set.

Negs, sorry, they're not in 'Verse-chronological order on the box set. The reason why OiS is the last episode on the box set is that it was the last episode aired. The last episode they actual shot was, indeed, The Message (which is how they got away with so much silliness during filming--they already knew they were cancelled, so what the hell). By that point, however, they had one more open slot, and a number of episodes (four, to be exact, plus the pilot) in the can but unaired. So Joss decided to air OiS because he felt that that one gave the best closure. I think that the discussion of this point takes place on the OiS episode commentary, but I'm not completely sure. We've discussed this before, though, and hopefully somebody else has a better memory than I do and can give the sources for all this.

Quote:
The Message clearly comes directly after Trash as there is all the talk about fencing the Lasiter. Inara seems at ease with the crew and Mal and even tries to take an active part in fencing the goods.

Circumstantial evidence at best. Mal talks about the "goodnight kiss" in Heart of Gold and that don't mean the two of them are chronologically contiguous. Then there're Niska's appearances in Train Job and War Stories (also not consecutive episodes) and Badger in Serenity and Shindig (again, not consecutive). You can just as easily make a circumstantial case for my order: Jayne calls River a "mind-reading genius" which only makes sense if The Message comes AFTER OiS. As Inara says, the Lassiter is universally known; mayhap they're having more than an episode's worth of trouble trying to fence the dang thing. Plus, who says Inara ain't having second thoughts by The Message? Or how about this: maybe her offer to help fence the Lassiter is a fence-mending ploy to make it so that she and Mal can at least be civil until she finds her port.

Quote:
We also know that this is the last episode as in the commentary Joss talks about this being the point where River is finally accepted by everyone despite the suspicion that she is a reader and possibly a weapon of the Alliance.

Which, as previously mentioned, is why he decided to make OiS the last episode to air on Fox. But that don't mean it's last in 'Verse-chronological order. I'll try to dig up the previous thread.

Don't feel bad, most people disagree with the right viewing order, and some even disagree about the right 'Verse-chronological order, so I'm not sore that you disagree.

Course, you're still wrong.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add: the script numbers are in the 1AGE series with the following order:

"Serenity" 1AGE00
"The Train Job" 1AGE01
"Bushwhacked" 1AGE02
"Shindig" 1AGE03
"Safe" 1AGE04
"Our Mrs. Reynolds" 1AGE05
"Jaynestown" 1AGE06
"Out of Gas" 1AGE07
"Ariel" 1AGE08
"War Stories" 1AGE09
"Heart of Gold" 1AGE10
"Objects in Space" 1AGE11
"Trash" 1AGE12
"The Message" 1AGE13

Far as I'm concerned, that's pretty compelling information as far as episode order goes. Don't make much sense to number them all out of order, now does it?

Of course, there are various theories floating around (though if you can muster up more compelling evidence than episode numbers, I'd like to see it).

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Monday, March 12, 2007 11:01 PM

TDBROWN

Simply put, the order in which they were filmed is not the same order in which they were to be shown (iow, the story arc). Joss said this, Tim Minear said this, so it's good enough for me.

"Might have been the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one." -Mal

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 2:55 AM

No offense, but when Joss say the only reason the message is last is because it's the one he wanted to air last, that doesn't mean that it's last in 'Verse-chronological order. Looks like we'll have to disagree--but I wish Joss would come out in some official capacity and tell us what the 'Verse-chronological order is.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:02 AM

So the reason I say it goes Objects in Space, Trash, Message, Heart of Gold is because of the development that occurs in each. In Object in Space the Jayne finds out about Mal's opinion that River is psychic. The crew also comes to terms with River and accepts her. We even see how Kaylee has gotten over River killing some of Niska's men by the end of the episode. During The Message, Trash and Heart of Gold we never see Kaylee acting scared by River. In Trash they steal the laciter which has obviously happened before The Message. Which at least means Trash is earlier than The Message at some point. The only telling thing in Heart of Gold is that Kaylee is OK with River being in the room with a pregnant woman. In Trash it's obvious that Inara hasn't told Mal she's leaving. She's looking for work and Mal even says "so you're part of the gang now?". Doesn't seem like something he'd say if he expected her to be leaving. So, that puts Trash before Heart of Gold.

Basically the rules we have from all of these is:
Trash before The Message
Trash before Heart of Gold
Objects in Space before The Message
and the weak reasoning for Objects in Space before Heart of Gold

Let's even drop the last rule...then the possible orders are:
Trash, Heart of Gold, Objects in Space, The Message
Trash, Objects in Space, Heart of Gold, The Message
Trash, Objects in Space, The Message, Heart of Gold
Objects in Space, Trash, The Message, Heart of Gold
Objects in Space, Trash, Heart of Gold, The Message

One of these should be right. The one with the best flow to the episodes to me is Objects in Space, Trash, The Message, Heart of Gold

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:16 AM

The Message and Objects in Space create an interesting conundrum... because of gorram Fox.

Joss and Co typically break their seasons up into three acts (like most shows), and OiS is clearly the end of "act two".

"Act One" begins with the pilot (which shows us how the passengers got on the ship) and ends with Out of Gas (which shows us how the crew got there). It's about introducing us to folks. (It's no accident that the other episodes deal thematically with some of the primary conflicts of the series: how far Mal will go for the Tams, the Mal-Inara dynamic, Jayne and the nature of heroism).

"Act Two", on the other hand, is to some extent about exploring River. We begin with Ariel and end with Objects in Space, which are two big "River reveals". In both, we find out a considerable amount about the mystery of River. If you watch the episode (and, particularly, listen to the commentary) it's clear that Objects in Space is intended as an "ender" episode. On the surface, it's about a bounty hunter catching up with the crew, but it's REALLY about River connecting emotionally to the crew (and particularly to Mal). Joss states this plainly in the commentary.

So OiS was pretty clearly intended to be the "act two" finale, bookending with Ariel. Had the show not been cancelled, we would have gotten a "bigger" final episode to end "act three" and the season (presumably some version of the comic book miniseries, Those Left Behind... which serves as an excellent--if somewhat rushed--finale for the season).

Since there was no "act three" to the season, however, OiS becomes the de facto SERIES finale, and The Message becomes an oddity.

Had Joss been given a full season, I suspect that The Message may, indeed, have followed OiS as part of "act three" of the season. But since there WAS no act three (ie, "post-OiS"), it has to become part of act two (ie, "pre-OiS").

While there are bits of potentially contradictory dialogue, it's my firm belief that this was the result of Joss trying to put together a season on the fly and KNOWING that if he was cancelled, he wanted to end with OiS. He shapes everything else around that stone.

Contradictory dialogue aside, I think there's very solid circumstancial evidence that The Message should precede OiS AND that there should be additional episodes between them (had the series continued).

Take a close look at the Simon-Kaylee dynamic in OiS. There's something amiss there in that there appears to be an escalation of comfort level between the two of them. Consider, for example, this bit of the script:

SIMON
Naked, yes, and on top of the statue of Hypocrates, and -- Can you just picture me?

KAYLEE
Naked? I'll have to conjure up -- it'll be tough.

He smiles at her, and she taps his chin with her toes playfully.

Strikes me that there's been an escalation of their relationship that we haven't been privy to. While awkwardness is again introduced later in the episode, the dynamic between them in The Message would be step back from where they are in OiS. If you consider things in DVD order, though, the progression of their relationship from The Message to OiS (via some "missing footage" makes more sense.

In the end, though, regardless of any dialogue quirks, Objects in Space is the last episode... because Joss said it is! (Although he DID also say that it was very appropriate for the crew to film The Message last, because their final bit of filming was the funeral).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:39 AM

Interesting theory, Gwek. I think you may be on to something with the 3-act theory. I think you're right: I think that The Message was probably intended to kick off Act 3. But if the original intention was to have The Message kick off act 3, that means that in 'Verse-chronological order, The Message comes last. We can talk 'til we're blue in the face about how it's more satisfying with OiS last, or how Joss wanted OiS to be the last aired episode. But that won't change the 'Verse-chronological order one tiny bit. What I mean is this: imagine you're one of the nine characters. What order would you experience the episodes in? This is what I intend by "'Verse-chronological order." How to determine that? Obviously, we can't go strictly by the airdates: Fox screwed that royally (they even aired the gorramn pilot last)(

FOX). So the mere fact that OiS was aired last doesn't mean we can't point to OiS's status as the last episode aired and claim that that makes it last. We also can't say something like, "it's the more satisfying ending"--because satisfying-ness (ouch, my grammar) has nothing to do with the 'Verse-chronology. There there's the argument "it's the ending Joss wanted for the series"--but what that means is that Joss had 5 episodes in the can, and knew he could only air one more. So he picked the one that gave it the best sense of resolution, and that was OiS. But this also doesn't mean anything for the 'Verse-chronology. I'm aware that OiS has a better sense of "tying things up" but golly, what does that matter. If it's the case that Jayne's "mind-reading-genius" was prompted by the events of OiS (if, for the sake of argument) then no matter how nice a sense of resolution OiS has, it still won't be after The Message in 'Verse-chronological order.

And anyway, as a five-year fan of Firefly, given the history of the show and the movie and the fandom, I feel like The Message really delivers the more satisfying last note: up-in-the-air, waiting-for-the-other-shoe, and, above all, deep, deep sadness.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:42 AM

One more thing, though, Gwek: if they just happened to film The Message last because that would be the most fun for everybody (or the most satisfying, or whatever) why's the episode number last in numerical order?

In any event, what do you suppose it means when Joss says the episode is "last?" Last in the series because he jiggered the order around to make it feel like it at least had some sort of resolve? Or last in 'Verse-chronology?

Hell, I'll be if we try hard enough we could make the case, based on subtle little nothings, that Serenity Parts 1 & 2 were actually the last episode! (Or, at least, not first.)

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Contradictory dialogue aside, I think there's very solid circumstancial evidence that The Message should precede OiS AND that there should be additional episodes between them (had the series continued).

Take a close look at the Simon-Kaylee dynamic in OiS. There's something amiss there in that there appears to be an escalation of comfort level between the two of them.

Strikes me that there's been an escalation of their relationship that we haven't been privy to. While awkwardness is again introduced later in the episode, the dynamic between them in The Message would be step back from where they are in OiS. If you consider things in DVD order, though, the progression of their relationship from The Message to OiS (via some "missing footage" makes more sense.

But the reason that circumstantial evidence is inadmissible in law courts is that it can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Consider your supposed "escalation" of Simon and Kaylee's relationship from The Message to OiS. I could take just exactly the same evidence and say, "Look: in OiS they are just in the hanging-out phase. But by the time we get to The Message, they're actually going on dates (and Simon's paying!)." In addition, people who are more emotionally invested in each other tend to be more hurt during fights, not less. So Kaylee's cold shoulder toward Simon after his insensitivity about her being the only girl he knows could be explained by the fact that it hurts her more given their increased intimacy (dates!) and she'd be likely to be even more harsh (perhaps even going so far as to wonder if perhaps she might be happier with someone else). And in any event, with the same kind of reasoning you could say, "Jaynestown must come close to the end of the series because of the comfort level between Simon and Kaylee: they fell asleep in each other's arms!"

And why are you so quick to dismiss "contradictory dialogue?" Take Heart of Gold and Our Mrs Reynolds. If someone suggested that OMR came after HoG, we'd say, "No! Mal makes reference to the goodnight kiss, so HoG must come after OMR!" And yet you're dismissing Jayne's dialogue: he clearly has the idea in his head that River is, in addition to being a genius (from the pilot), a reader. Now where would he get such an idea? Surely he didn't puzzle it out for himself from little hints dropped in previous (i.e. non-OiS) episodes. This is Jayne we're talking about here, the guy who can't figure out why Kaylee's mad after Mal compares her to a barn-yard animal. He's not exactly quick on the uptake (ref the conversation over Saffron's plan in Trash). But somehow, he's gotten it through his thick-yet-lovable skull that River's psychic. How would that happen? Well, golly, I imagine that even Jayne, dim-bulb though he is, couldn't miss the point after an extended conversation about it in OiS. You couple that with the fact that The Message episode number is last (1AGE13), and the fact that The Message was shot last, well, there's the case. If Firefly had been shown on the perfect network, just the way Joss wanted, and gone for a few seasons, what would the first-season order have been? I'd be willing to bet that the episodes would have aired in the order they were numbered, and shot, because that's how the events unfolded in the 'Verse.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:04 AM

ZEKE: I'm sorry to say that you're logic current logic is flawed.

Heart of Gold (in which Inara says she's leaving) MUST precede Objects in Space (in which Inara and Mal discuss her leaving).

CASUAL: I think the problem here is that "last episode" can be defined in different ways. If you're talking chronologically, there can be some debate (more in a moment). If you're talking about the final episode of the series and the episode one "should" watch last, it's Objects in Space (I think there can be very little debate to this, as Joss as stated it).

With respect to chronology, I don't think there's any debate that places an episode besides OiS or The Message last, is there?

It seems to be that the evidence for The Message being last boils down to two specific pieces (each, admittedly, very compelling):

1-Jayne's line about River.

2-The script numbering.

(Again, more in a moment).

The COUNTER-argument, I submit, is equally compelling, if more circumstantial: this can primarily be found in the interplay between Kaylee and Simon and Mal and Inara. In both cases, if The Message is placed after Objects in Space, things don't add up.

No matter how you slice it, SOMETHING doesn't make sense. Based on Jayne and River, The Message should come second. Based on Mal and Inara, The Message should preceded Heart of Gold (ie, DVD order=chronological order).

There may be a very simple solution to why things don't make sense: Because Joss screwed up. That's right. Joss made a mistake (WHICH mistake, is still open to interpretation).

It's happened before with Firefly, in that an actual chronology of the series is technically IMPOSSIBLE, if we assume the episodes appear occur in the "obvious" order. Check out various timelines of the episodes, and you'll see that they can't possibly all happen as the "cues" in the episodes indicate, so I'd like to suggest that there is, in fact, precedent for Joss and Crew screwing up little details that make continuity almost impossible to logically nail down.

Having said that, let's look at the two key pieces of evidence in favor of The Message-as-later:

1) Jayne's line about River.

The counter to this, as I say, is the dialogue between Inara and Mal and, to a lesser extent, between Kaylee and Simon. Simply focusing on Inara and Mal, where they are in The Message is the "wrong place" for them to be following the awkwardness of HoG AND OiS. (Yes, you can argue that perhaps they "made up", but I find that as weak an argument as I'm sure you would my idea that Jayne's line could be based on River's "I can kill you with my mind" comment in Trash).

Here, then, we have a contradiction that cannot be resolved. I posit that if we'd seen Trash aired, this conundrum might well have been resolved with a minor edit in the same way that OiS was edited when Joss was not able to air HoG befire OiS. In this way, Joss keeps his options open (with a minor edit, The Message can reasonably occur before OR after OiS), presumably because he didn't know how many eps he was going to get.

It's also possible that Jayne's line was WRITTEN AFTER Objects in Space, and was a simple gaffe because Joss wasn't thinking straight and his head was still on OiS. At the time Joss would have been writing The Message, he was running three shows, trying to wrap-up Buffy, keep Firefly from being cancelled, and figure out what to do with the show if it was. One can EASILY imagine that a line or two got screwed up under those circumstances and was never caught. (To be honest, the editing on all three ofthe unaired episodes seems a little less tight than those that were aired).

So, based SOLELY on Jayne's one-off line, I think a pretty solid argument can be constructed that the joke is simply a piece of either very clever or very poor editing (much as I love Firelfy, this wouldn't be the first case of the latter).

2) The shooting script number: To me, this is far more compelling evidence on it's own... BUT the fact that Trash ALSO follows OiS would seem to run counter to flow of the tone or Mal and Inara's relationship. I find it VERY hard to buy the lighthearted tone of their interaction in Trash following the awkwardness of HoG/OiS. More importantly, if the crew KNOWS that River is a reader at this point, why don't they take advantage of her in some way during the heist? Why doesn't anyone suggest that River read Saffron? (Indeed, River TELLS Jayne and Simon that Saffron a liar, but they react to River like she's crazy River, NOT telepathic River).

Thus, while I don't think it's possible to definitively set a chronology, circumstancial evidence (based on the Mal-Inara dynamic and River-as-telepath dynamic) indicates that Trash much precede HoG. If that's true, then it nixes the use of the shooting script numbers as support for chronology.

The more I explore this, the more I think that Joss was numbering the scripts based on his treatment by Fox. I think he numbered up to OiS first because that's where he NEEDED to get to in order to tell his story (and Fox screwed up up by not giving him the extra week to show us HoG), and they he numbered Trash and The Messager AFTER because they were gravy (if Fox gave him more time). As multiple people have stated, regardless of the numbering, Joss has confirmed that the eps are in the proper order on the DVD. This would seem to support, in theory, the idea that Joss was playing fast and loose with the numbers at the end.

*****

Bottom line: I think a very plausible argument can be constructed either way. Of course, I think mine's more plausible,

because it takes into consideration not only scripted material but also the behind the scenes stuff that was going on with Joss and Fox at the time.

So long as we're enjoying the show, and until Joss gives us a definitive answer (maybe in the second volume of the Firefly Companion?), we can both be right!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:54 AM

how excellent. i'm proud to have started this thread. not sure why i get such a thrill from reading all the details and the intricate facets of just a few episodes. but the story line of the verse impacts plot and character development so much. i saw serenity before i saw the series. now, after i've seen movie and series over 15 times, i think i enjoy it more than before. a bit obsessed. i do like the fact that one can see a quick 35-40 min episode of the series, and go on with one's day. obsession should never conflict with one's day job.

everybody dies alone

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:17 AM

Sorry, just realized that you posted a few more responses while I was working on my "thesis."

While your correct that my argument wouldn't hold up in a court of law (neither would yours, for that matter!), we're discussing a topic that we can, at best, make best-guesses about.

Although I hadn't your second and third responses, I think that most of these issues are addressed in my "thesis."

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
One more thing, though, Gwek: if they just happened to film The Message last because that would be the most fun for everybody (or the most satisfying, or whatever) why's the episode number last in numerical order?

As stated in the longer message, I think that The Message was simply "less important" for Joss to film than OiS, so it became an "optional" episode. In other words, "If Fox cancels me, I'll fight for OiS and HoG, but I don't think I can fight for all FOUR eps..."

I'm assuming you've listened to the commentary with the DVDs, so you may realize this is exactly the kind of tactic Joss would pull (placing OiS earlier in the order than he planned in order to convince Fox to let him air to AT LEAST that episode). In the pilot, for example, he wanted to air in widescreen, and Fox initially said no, so he filmed a number of key shots such that widescreen was NECESSARY, leaving Fox with the option of either airing WS or paying for reshoots.

Quote:
In any event, what do you suppose it means when Joss says the episode is "last?" Last in the series because he jiggered the order around to make it feel like it at least had some sort of resolve? Or last in 'Verse-chronology?

The more I explore this issue, the more I become convinced that FOR JOSS, DVD order=chronological order=the order he would have LIKED them to air on Fox (doesn't mean they would have).

Quote:
Hell, I'll be if we try hard enough we could make the case, based on subtle little nothings, that Serenity Parts 1 & 2 were actually the last episode! (Or, at least, not first.)

That's an argument I'd like to see.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
[But the reason that circumstantial evidence is inadmissible in law courts is that it can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Consider your supposed "escalation" of Simon and Kaylee's relationship from The Message to OiS. I could take just exactly the same evidence and say, "Look: in OiS they are just in the hanging-out phase.

Watch the scene closely. Kaylee's lying with her bare feet in Simon's lap, she puts her toes in his face, AND implies that she's seen him naked. They're not "just hanging out".

Quote:
And in any event, with the same kind of reasoning you could say, "Jaynestown must come close to the end of the series because of the comfort level between Simon and Kaylee: they fell asleep in each other's arms!"

See, now you're just being silly.

Quote:
And why are you so quick to dismiss "contradictory dialogue?" Take Heart of Gold and Our Mrs Reynolds. If someone suggested that OMR came after HoG, we'd say, "No! Mal makes reference to the goodnight kiss, so HoG must come after OMR!" And yet you're dismissing Jayne's dialogue: he clearly has the idea in his head that River is, in addition to being a genius (from the pilot), a reader.

As I said, I'm not dismissing the line out of hand, but if that's ALL that the argument of The-Message-as-later hangs on, then I think it's very likely the line was, as I've said, a mistake (or a clever "placeholder" edit.

By shooting the episode as he did (with the contradictory scenes), Joss has actually created an episode where The Message can go before OiS (ie, "the DVD order", as he said he'd originally intended) or AFTER (as he'd implied to Fox it should be placed).

Quote:
You couple that with the fact that The Message episode number is last (1AGE13), and the fact that The Message was shot last, well, there's the case.

Unfortunately, that case also means that Trash was the second-to-last episode, and that's much harder for you to prove. In analyzing the eps over at www.stillflying.net, we've learned that it's just as important to look at what the characters DON'T say as what they do. Had Inara been planning to get off the ship at this point, that fact would almost certainly have come up during some of the Mal-Inara banter, and it does not. Couple that with the fact that no one addresses the fact that River might be a telepath in this episode (when it would be oh-so-obvious to mention the idea of having River read Saffron), and I think there's very little case to be made for Trash occurring after OiS.

If Trash occurs BEFORE OiS, the numbers don't mean a thing, and your argument hangs on Jayne's line.

I'm not saying that there's no change your right, just that I don't find your argument compelling.

Quote:
If Firefly had been shown on the perfect network, just the way Joss wanted, and gone for a few seasons, what would the first-season order have been? I'd be willing to bet that the episodes would have aired in the order they were numbered, and shot, because that's how the events unfolded in the 'Verse.

Again, other than numbers, there's nothing to indicate that Trash is supposed to take place after OiS (and much to indicate otherwise), so it would have aired before OiS in an ideal world. As for The Message? Who can say for sure? Oh, that's right! JOSS can! When he says that the DVD order is the order than he wanted the episodes to air!

I'd be willing to bet that on a perfect network, then, The Message would have preceded OiS.

Still, the issue does bring up an interesting little conundrum about the show, so the next time I sit down to watch the DVDs, I'll probably do it in "numeric" order for a little variety!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:23 AM

Well, it's obvious we're not going to agree, so I'll just present my final rebuttals before I bow out.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
It seems to be that the evidence for The Message being last boils down to two specific pieces (each, admittedly, very compelling):

1-Jayne's line about River.

2-The script numbering.

That, and the fact that the episode was shot last.

Quote:
No matter how you slice it, SOMETHING doesn't make sense. Based on Jayne and River, The Message should come second. Based on Mal and Inara, The Message should preceded Heart of Gold (ie, DVD order=chronological order).

With all due respect, your analysis of Mal and Inara's behavior might be flawed. But the line is the line, and think that's the harder "inconsistency" to explain. More on this in a minute.

Quote:
Let's look at the two key pieces of evidence in favor of The Message-as-later:

1) Jayne's line about River.

The counter to this, as I say, is the dialogue between Inara and Mal and, to a lesser extent, between Kaylee and Simon. Simply focusing on Inara and Mal, where they are in The Message is the "wrong place" for them to be following the awkwardness of HoG AND OiS. ... Here, then, we have a contradiction that cannot be resolved.

Not to logic chop too much, but what you're describing isn't a contradiction per se. If I say, "That car is red," and you say, "That car is not red," we have a instance of contradiction: these statements directly oppose each other because the one is the denial of the other. On the other hand, if I say, "That car is red," and you say, "That car is black," we have an instance of contrariety. The two statements aren't in direct opposition--they're merely contrary--neither one denies the other. I believe that you'll find that there's no contradiction involved, because nothing in the case under consideration has been presented that is the denial of some other thing that was presented. If that were the case, there could be no resolution. But if they're contrary maybe we can resolve them.

Now, I'm not going to let you drag me into a discussion about the proper placement of Trash, because that's beyond the scope of the discussion. We're discussing the question of which is the last episode. As you've acknowledged, it seems that the best arguments have either TM or OiS last. Either way, there will be (in your mind, at least) the appearance of contradiction. If we put them in TM-OiS order, Jayne's line about River seems out of place. If we put them in OiS-TM order, Mal and Inara's interaction seems out of order. (For the sake of argument, I'm going to discount the Simon/Kaylee thing, as you admit that it counts "to a lesser degree"--and not at all, in my mind). So let's take them by turns.

If the order is TM-OiS, then we have to deal with Jayne's line about River being a mind-reading genius. As I mentioned in a previous post, Jayne doesn't seem to have the wits to come to this conclusion on his own. So how could he have possibly have known? As you say, the only real candidate seems to be River's line about being able to kill Jayne with her brain. But this line would only establish River as having telekinetic powers, not psychic ones, and at any rate, I think Jayne is just creeped out about the whole affair--I donubt very seriously that he put significant thought into River's comment, other than to be unsettled by it. No, the best explanation here seems to be that Jayne (who, even at his best, is about as sharp as a bag of hammers) drew this conclusion from hearing other people talk about it--so by inference to the best explanation that would put OiS before TM. There just doesn't seem to be a workable alternative.

How about the other supposed difficulty? Your contention seems to be that Mal and Inara's interaction in TM is too cordial to place it after her announcement in OiS that she's leaving. Now, in TM there is only one major interchange between Mal and Inara (their dialogue in the teaser) and two minor ones (Inara's understanding about the detour to St Albans, and her sharing in the funny story about Tracey and the Colonel). Let's take the two minor ones first.

When Mal tells Inara that their trip to St Albans will throw off her schedule, she's very understanding about it. Does this mean that she hasn't decided to leave? Maybe. But I submit that she would have reacted in exactly the same way if she had. Why? Because she knows how much it means to Mal and Zoe to honor their fallen comrade. She's understanding because she's a decent human being, and so this one doesn't help your case at all.

The second minor interaction is her goading Mal and Zoe to tell the funny story about Tracey and the Colonel's walrus-y moustache. Now, maybe she's having so much fun because she hasn't decided to leave yet. But even if she had, I have to assert again that she would have done exactly the same thing. It would seem that companions are given some level of training in psychology (the better to understand their clients). So she wants them to remember Tracey in the best possible way. She wants them to associate him with pleasant memories, and not get overly bogged down in grief over him. Again, why does she do this? It's not because she hasn't yet decided to leave the ship; it's equally possible that she's doing it because she loves Mal and Zoe and wants to help them to the extent possible--she is, after all, a decent human being. So once again, this interaction doesn't necessarily bolster your case.

That leaves us with their 45-second chunk of dialogue in the teaser. Now here's the thing: during the whole conversation, they do not smile, they do not joke with each other, there're no side-long glances or wistful stares. There's nothing of the easy companionship like we see on Triumph before Mal "marries" Saffron, nor joking of the type we see around the dinner table in OoG. In fact, what is going on here is a fight. And I find that entirely consistent with the idea that the relationship between them is strained because of her announcement that she's leaving. Plus I can muster up some of that circumstantial evidence you love so much: according to the dialogue, Mal refuses to allow her to help him fence the Lassiter because he doesn't want to harm her career. Maybe his sudden concern for her career is due to the fact that she's getting off the boat soon, and he doesn't want her reputation besmirched by involvement in criminal dealings. So once again, this interaction is hardly solid evidence that TM comes before OiS.

Let's be honest about the way people interact. When difficult things come up in a relationship, things are rough for a while, but then you get back to being normal (or at least close to normal). I hardly think that Inara moped around and acted bitchy from the moment she made her announcement to the day she got off the ship. She's much too professional (not to mention decent) to do such a thing. I'm sure that she tried as hard as she could not to be a drag--why make her remaining time about Serenity miserable? I got divorced about 7 years ago. My ex told me she was leaving in late September, and was gone in early December. And in the intervening weeks, things were difficult at times, but less so at others. We still talked and went out and did the normal stuff. At times, we even got along pretty well. We didn't mope all the way through the time we had left. We weren't giddy, but hey, that's to be expected. Maybe that’s the point Mal and Inara were at: not necessarily happy about the situation, but still trying to at least be civil. In that light, Inara's suggestion that she help fence the Lassiter could be seen as a peace offering to let Mal know that her leaving isn't personal, and his refusal could be his way to protect her after she's gone.

Then there's this interaction in the script for TM that never made it into the final ep:

Amnon (the postal clerk)(to Inara): I'm disappointed you haven't found a better berth by now.
Inara: I'm a little confused myself.

That little bit of dialogue could be taken to mean that Inara's having second thoughts. Maybe her cordiality towards Mal is due to the fact that she’s feeling conflicted about her decision.

So, as I see, you may be misinterpreting Mal and Inara's interaction. They're cordial because they still have to be (they're stuck on the ship together, after all) and not because Inara hasn't decided to leave yet. So between the Jayne/River thing and the Mal/Inara thing, the easier resolution seems to be to put them in OiS-TM order and revisit one's interpretation of Mal and Inara's interaction.

There are hard pieces of evidence and soft ones--the hard ones favor my view. I hope that I've shown that the soft ones aren't as definitive as you take them to be.

Let me just say, here at the end, that I've really enjoyed the debate, and I hope I've not offended you in any way. I just wish we could be this civil over in RWED!

Caleb
aka Causal

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
ZEKE: I'm sorry to say that you're logic current logic is flawed.

Heart of Gold (in which Inara says she's leaving) MUST precede Objects in Space (in which Inara and Mal discuss her leaving).

That line was changed. Whether it was changed for the dvds or for tv we don't really know, but I don't count it one way or the other because there are two versions depending on the chronological order.

Which really begs the question "Did Joss know what order to put the episodes in when he was filming them?".

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:06 AM

STARRBABY

I'm surprised noone has brought up that Simon was shot in OiS. Wouldn't he be on crutches or something for HoG or The Message?

You can bring up that he's fine in the movie, but that was months later.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:08 AM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

That line was changed. Whether it was changed for the dvds or for tv we don't really know, but I don't count it one way or the other because there are two versions depending on the chronological order.

Which really begs the question "Did Joss know what order to put the episodes in when he was filming them?".

I'm fairly certain that the line was changed just for TV, because it was the last one they were going to air, and therefore they had to know that "Heart of Gold" was not going to be aired. But then that's also just my opinion. I think Joss probably had some idea of which order he wanted them in, because that's what the order on the dvd's is supposed to be.

-------------------
What's so amazing about really deep thoughts?

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
ZEKE: I'm sorry to say that you're logic current logic is flawed.

Heart of Gold (in which Inara says she's leaving) MUST precede Objects in Space (in which Inara and Mal discuss her leaving).

That line was changed. Whether it was changed for the dvds or for tv we don't really know, but I don't count it one way or the other because there are two versions depending on the chronological order.

Which really begs the question "Did Joss know what order to put the episodes in when he was filming them?".

We actually DO know. The line in the DVD is the way it's "supposed to be", but Joss re-shot the scene for the televised version of Objects in Space because the real scene doesn't make sense unless HoG has aired first. Joss has cleared this up in interviews, and (I believe) the commentary for the DVDs.

There ARE two different chonological orders:

1) Firefly according to Joss (as depicted on the DVD set), in which HoG definitively precedes Objects in Space.

2) Firefly according to Fox, in which the point is moot, because HoG doesn't exist!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:41 AM

See I guess the problem here is I think Joss is saying they're his definitive order based on what he had to work with. Where as I'm thinking the definitive order had the verse continued.

I think Joss ordered the dvd episodes in the best way to make it all flow fairly well. However, if he had been able to finish the season I think they'd be different. So, it all depends on what Joss was talking about in the commentary.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Causal:
Well, it's obvious we're not going to agree, so I'll just present my final rebuttals before I bow out.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
It seems to be that the evidence for The Message being last boils down to two specific pieces (each, admittedly, very compelling):

1-Jayne's line about River.

2-The script numbering.

That, and the fact that the episode was shot last.

A fair point. However, the reality of filming a television program is that episodes are often not written in order and sometimes not aired in order.

Given the circumstances under which Joss was filming Firefly at that point (knowing full well that he might be cancelled), he chose to film out of order. I could be mistaken, but I believe HoG was ALSO filmed after OiS, but that doesn't place HoG after OiS. It only means that Joss felt that, of the last four eps, OiS was the most important to film, and the one that MUST be aired.

Quote:
With all due respect, your analysis of Mal and Inara's behavior might be flawed. But the line is the line, and think that's the harder "inconsistency" to explain. More on this in a minute.

As I've said before, there are a number of explanations for your inconsistency, the simplest being that the continuity folks screwed up.

I fully agree that my defensive argument is more speculative... HOWEVER when it's added to the fact that Joss STATES that the episodes are in the proper order on the DVD, that speculation becomes pretty solid, I think.

Quote:
Now, I'm not going to let you drag me into a discussion about the proper placement of Trash, because that's beyond the scope of the discussion. We're discussing the question of which is the last episode.

The proper placement of Trash is pivotal to a discussion of which episode is last because 2 out of 3 pieces of evidence supporting The Message as the final episode (script numbering and filming order) also dictate that Trash fall between Objects in Space and The Message.

Basically, not to sound like a jerk, while I can't use the placement of Trash (which, by virtue of it's content, I argue MUST occur chronologically before OiS) to support my own argument, I *can* use it to refute your argument by taking away two out of three of your pieces of potential evidence.

Again, that leaves ONLY Jayne's line (for which there are multiple explanations) as "hard evidence" in support of The Message-as-later theory.

(Apologies, by the way, for sounding like a broken record, but I'm trying to state things logically).

As for Jayne's line... Again, I hope I don't sound like a jerk here, but as the head writer for a virtual continuation of Firefly, we often find ourselves in a comparable position to that of a crew working on a "real" program: writing and producing multiple episodes simultaneously and out of order. Minor slip-ups like this happen all the time. Same thing happens with regular TV shows and movies. Writers (or ad-libbing actors) put in lines based on their own knowledge, and continuity glitches occur. Had the episode actually been AIRED, it's quite possible it would have been caught (assuming it was an actual writing gaff).

Quote:
So, as I see, you may be misinterpreting Mal and Inara's interaction. They're cordial because they still have to be (they're stuck on the ship together, after all) and not because Inara hasn't decided to leave yet. So between the Jayne/River thing and the Mal/Inara thing, the easier resolution seems to be to put them in OiS-TM order and revisit one's interpretation of Mal and Inara's interaction.

You may be all kinds of right... but I don't think so, and we're now in the realm of dueling speculations. Speaking as a writer (and professional editor) it's a LOT easier for a small mistake (such as a funny, throwaway line) to be made and overlooked than for a large one (such as the tone of the interaction between two main characters in two different episodes, once of which focuses on them).

Quote:
There are hard pieces of evidence and soft ones--the hard ones favor my view. I hope that I've shown that the soft ones aren't as definitive as you take them to be.

And I hope I've show that unless it can be proven that Trash is ALSO supposed to follow OiS, you don't have hard facts in your corner, but simply a single line of dialogue.

To me, the hardest fact in favor of the other side is that Joss says the DVD order is correct!

Quote:
Let me just say, here at the end, that I've really enjoyed the debate, and I hope I've not offended you in any way. I just wish we could be this civil over in RWED!

I hope I haven't offended either (what's RWED, by the way?). Although I remain unconvinced, as I say, it'll still be interesting to watch the eps in a different order and see if I catch anything new!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
See I guess the problem here is I think Joss is saying they're his definitive order based on what he had to work with. Where as I'm thinking the definitive order had the verse continued.

I think Joss ordered the dvd episodes in the best way to make it all flow fairly well. However, if he had been able to finish the season I think they'd be different. So, it all depends on what Joss was talking about in the commentary.

Joss has stated that the order on the DVDs is the order in which he intended them to air. Not a lot of wiggle room there, I think.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:43 AM

STARRBABY

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
(what's RWED, by the way?)

It's where we discuss "real world" issues. People get downright mean there. It's further down on the board if you care to join us.

*mumbles under breath* still can't believe noone else has brough up that Simon got shot in OiS.

*smiles* Okay, I'll hush up now.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Starrbaby:
Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
(what's RWED, by the way?)

It's where we discuss "real world" issues. People get downright mean there. It's further down on the board if you care to join us.

*mumbles under breath* still can't believe noone else has brough up that Simon got shot in OiS.

*smiles* Okay, I'll hush up now.

Ah, okay. Silly real world... :)

As for Simon getting shot... Good point! While they don't always "carry forward" injuries, they DO try to do it more than on a typical TV show. So while it's not a slam dunk, I think it's more support for the OiS-as-chronologically-final argument.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 11:53 AM

WHOISRIVER

Quote:

Joss has stated that the order on the DVDs is the order in which he intended them to air. Not a lot of wiggle room there, I think.

Quoted for truth.

-gossi

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:09 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Has anyone noticed that at the end of OIS that River and Kaylee are playing jacks with a ball that could be a planet? Especially the way River looks at it in the end when she holds it up to her face and really looks at it.

Foreshadowing Miranda? I think so-so it ties right in with the BDM.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 12:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Joss has stated that the order on the DVDs is the order in which he intended them to air. Not a lot of wiggle room there, I think.

First, I'm not calling Joss a liar. Second, Joss is a liar. I seem to remember interviews where he said he was making a Wonder Woman movie. Shows about how much we can trust this guy.

Seriously I'm going to call this George Lucas syndrome. It's where a person over thinks their own work to the point of changing their original idea. That's what I think happened with the last episodes. Now whether Joss is really talking about these episodes or the earlier episodes that Fox really messed with is open to debate, but I think 2002 Joss would have some disagreements with present Joss on the proper order.

I guess it just seems apparent to me that Joss put OiS last because it was a good ending episode. Though it obviously doesn't fit there due to Jayne's line about the mind reading genius. No quotes from Joss are going to change that.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 5:42 PM

See? I told you we weren't going to agree!

*victory dance*

*ahem* Sorry about that.

"RWED" is the Real World Events Discussion Forum on these boards. Good heavens, but things get nasty in there.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:04 AM

With all due respect to ya both...

CAUSAL: Yep, we have to agree to disagree. I think we've both presented well-structured arguments that just happen not to convince each other of their respective merits. Good debate, man.

ZEKE: You... You're just being silly. There's one very simple quote from Joss that could change everything (not that I expect to hear it, but I'll be dollars to donuts it's the truth): "Yeah, that genius mindreader joke was a continuity error... Those happen..."

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:35 AM

The nice thing about (most) folk on this board is that we really do behave like a family. I'll tustle with you and pull your hair and such (figuratively speaking), but if someone messes with one of us, they mess with us all.

Oh, how I love being a Firefly fan!

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I think 2002 Joss would have some disagreements with present Joss on the proper order.

I am having existential angst.

________________________________________________________________________
Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets

Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:59 AM

And if we combine those last two posts, I'm picturing 2002 Joss and 2007 Joss tustling and hair-pulling.

It ain't real pretty.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:37 AM