The Companions Guild - hurrah!! by AgentRouka

Quote:
Originally posted by Kayna:

Question. Why no guy Companions?

There might be some!

I just suspect that there are much fewer of them, since the profession might be less attractive to men. Women gravitate toward nurturing professions and men less so.

Good question! Maybe it's a cultural thing that grew out of the empowerment of female prostitutes, but even there it would seem odd to exclude them.

Anyone have an idea that doesn't lead up to "The Guild is bad"?

I do suspect that the male Companions, should there be some, are highly sought after by men and women alike...

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Friday, March 9, 2007 9:36 AM

as I mentioned in the other topic, I cannot see any organisation who gives its members suicide/murder kits as benevolent.

I am talking specifically about the black vial that Inara carries.

It is a business. It does not need to be evil, but it definitely is not totally benevolent, even if the victim deserves the punishment. It is still a law onto itself, meting out its own "justice".

I doubt Inara thinks fo it as such either. She must have questioned why she is given a drug that can kill the victim.

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Friday, March 9, 2007 9:41 AM

MAVOURNEEN

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Kayna:

Question. Why no guy Companions?

There might be some!

There are male companions. In the BDM, for a few milliseconds before we see Inara kneeling before Buddha, there is a long shot of a corridor in the House...and walking down the corridor is a man dressed in what I can only describe as a "boy skirt", vaguely Indian in style. I have always assumed him to be a Male Companion.

------------------------------------------------

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Friday, March 9, 2007 9:49 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
as I mentioned in the other topic, I cannot see any organisation who gives its members suicide/murder kits as benevolent.

I am talking specifically about the black vial that Inara carries.

Oh dear, I don't mean to seem like I'm picking on you NBZ. In piont of fact I like how you seem to have spent some time thinking things out but I have to point out that we don't really know that that is what the vial Inara carries is. You're refering to the one in the pilot ep right? Joss said that he had plans to explain that in the commentary but wouldn't let the secret out just yet. Knowing his imagination, there are all sorts of things it could be. And who says the Guild gave that to her in the first place?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Friday, March 9, 2007 9:56 AM

Tim Minear and Morena Baccarin (or both) let it out of the bag.

I think Tim was talking about an episode they did not do as it was a little too dark. Inara would get taken by reavers. the crew would find her, but all the reavers would be dead.

Someone asked him wether this is what the vial was about and he backed out if I remember correctly.

Morena last year in some convention also expanded on it. I think her interview is on the firefly talk podcast or something.

But good followup question.

Maybe she did not get it from the guild?

/ponders

I like explorign idea's so no need to frett. I am not feeling picked upon yet. I always get my disclaimer in first so that the other person feels sorry for me

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Friday, March 9, 2007 10:44 AM

Good point about the vial!

It seems like the idea of the vial having NOT been Guild-issued but rather given to her by someone else, might be an interesting puzzle piece into her reasons for leaving, since Inara obviously has no problems with the Guild directly, but also obviously left with some conflict.

Most intriguing! Was it a good friend? Or did she purchase it herself? And what motivated her? Did the law fail her or someone she cared about, making her consider self-justice in the case of a violent attack? Is it related to her reason for leaving at all?

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Saturday, March 10, 2007 12:41 AM

SPACEANJL

Me again.

The idea of the Guild is great. And as I said elsewhere, I am all for independent women doing their own thing.

My point is that a very large organization has the potential to be turned to dodgy ends. Not everyone will be bad. In fact, I think the concept is a very fine one. But you have to realise that any group of people will contain the whole spectrum of folks, from the benevolent to the barking.

All I was asking, is that people see beyond the black and white assumptions. I mean, on the other side of the coin, we have a whole frontier of planets filled with witch-burners and criminals.

Inara is a fine person, who doesn't want to give up a life of which she is proud. She has worked hard to attain a level of education, sophistication and poise beyond what most people can dream of achieving. Her work is to bring a measure of peace and comfort to people, in whatever way they need. And I think much of the Guild is like that.

Just, I don't think a group of gentle and benevolent therapists would maintain any degree of independence in a cutthroat world unless they had a certain iron beneath the velvet.

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Saturday, March 10, 2007 6:42 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Well they do get into every part of the society. They especially have contact with the higher and mighteier parts of it (and quick side note: The Counselor in War Stories. What was she a Counselor of?) Who knows what kinds of things those high and mighty would let slip to thier bed partners at certain vunlnerable moments. I believe that the Guild knows a lot of secrets. Especially the weaknewsses of the powerful. Knowing such things is a great way to stay in business.

I think SpaceAnJL has a great point. There is the potential for bad in the power the Guild holds but so Far I've seen nothing to indicate they've done anything untoward.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Saturday, March 10, 2007 7:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
Me again.

Me again, too. With more "beating", I guess.

Quote:

My point is that a very large organization has the potential to be turned to dodgy ends. Not everyone will be bad. In fact, I think the concept is a very fine one. But you have to realise that any group of people will contain the whole spectrum of folks, from the benevolent to the barking.

And I never said that this can't be possible. In fact, I said very clearly that there could be evil lurking within the Guild.

But if there is, I just don't see it as an institutional aspect of it, but rather an abberration working secretly somewhere, not an accepted part at any even the top level.

Quote:

All I was asking, is that people see beyond the black and white assumptions. I mean, on the other side of the coin, we have a whole frontier of planets filled with witch-burners and criminals.

We have been given a pretty comprehensive view of good and evil on the rim worlds, but we have not gotten the same thing for the Core.

Everything we have seen of the Core on the show that is not evil or at least rotten, is actually on board Serenity now: Inara, Simon, River.

Everything else has been depicted as pretty worthless: the Tam parents are bad, the hospital security staff is bad, the Alliance is bad (or at least we get no perspective other than Mal's commentary about even the reasonable things they do)...

The show hasn't given us a balanced view, yet, either, so black and white assumptions right now are really only pointed at the Core, and often as such at the Guild. I'm asking for the same thing you are: less black and white condemnation.

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Just, I don't think a group of gentle and benevolent therapists would maintain any degree of independence in a cutthroat world unless they had a certain iron beneath the velvet.

But there are perfectly legitimate ways of being strong and maintaining that strength, without resorting to measures that could be considered dark or deplorable.

I'm trying to imagine what the point would even be. What would be the underlying motive for the Guild, to be evil? At the moment, they appear to have everything they could want: recognition, money, lots of members.

You like bringing up the Catholic church, but that one is a completely different animal. What corrupted the early Christianity into a political organisation was the fact that religious behavior and politics were not separate in ancient rome. They were nearly identical. Why did they kill martyrs in the circuses? Because they refused to worship the emperor, which was one of the pillars that unified the very large and diverse empire. Making ever growing Christianity the state religion, that's what turned it into the oppressive political aparatus that the Catholic church became.

Where is the parallel to the Guild, which isn't even a spiritual organisation in its purpose? It's essentially nothing but a large, private union for a specific profession. Government regulated by laws, but not goverment run.

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Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:26 AM

The guild is a business.

It looks after it's own interests.

If it's inerests can be managed in a legitimate way, then it will use them.

But we have to consider that the alliance is not strong no the rim, where atleast some Companions work.

I do not see why they have to be good. (I know no one is arguing is has to be good, but clarifying where I stand..)

But if we do imagine that overall it is good, then still there is the fact that companions that contract with top government officials will know a aweful lot about the innards of how the allied government works.

That is a powerful position to hold.

For the guild to be established and respected, it must have been around for a while.

It is a business,not some utopic company.

(I have not even commented on the work the Guild does.)

It is not a matter of being good or evil, but of business.

IBM, Microsoft, Coca Cola, McDonalds... all big businesses. all pretty much legal. All have business practices/history some would argue to be extremely shady.

Forbidding members to contact those who have left? a bit draconian if you ask me. I would not assume naivety.

If I had shares in a company not trying to maximise it's profits, I would be pissed.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 2:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Tim Minear and Morena Baccarin (or both) let it out of the bag.
Maybe she did not get it from the guild?

There's a slight discrepency between what appears in the suppposed screenplay written by Tim, what Morena said at SFX last year.

If we want to assume that the screenplay that's out there is somewhat reliable, then the vial contained a substance that did not kill Inara, only those who had sex with her, in which case it wouldn't be a suicide/murder drug, just a murdering drug. :o)

Morena said she thought it was a drug that killed those you had sex with and/or you, but she wasn't 100% sure of the exact details, just something along those general lines.

I like to hope that it was the former, and that Inara wouldn't have died from using it.

It's interesting to wonder whether or not it came from the Guild! If it did, it could be a special case, given to Inara when she left the Core, as life is much rougher on the 'Rim, and a Companion may not be safe or respected just because of who/what she is ???

Or as has been suggested, it could have been something that Inara picked up for herself, her own safety measure, which I find very interesting to think about.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 3:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
But we have to consider that the alliance is not strong no the rim, where atleast some Companions work.

Just curious, but was there every any actual evidence in the show or movie that there *are* other Companions on the 'rim?

One must think there are, or Inara would never have a moment's rest... just wish we'd had a chance to see more Companions, even just to get an idea of their overall numbers. Nandi stated that there were 40 women at House Madrassa on Sihnon, but we have no idea how many houses there are, on how many planets... it's something I'd like to know.

Quote:
Forbidding members to contact those who have left? a bit draconian if you ask me.

This does seem to be one of the bigger sticking points for many people...

From that Guild-as-buisness standpoint, the Guild would have invested a lot of time, effort, and money into the training of a Companion, all of which they would expect to get some return on once the Companion was practicing and paying dues and whatnot. But Nandi packed up and left, and the Guild's investment was completely lost with no hope of a return, thus, the Shunning - the punishment would have to be severe, or else what's to stop potentially any girl (or boy) the Guild takes in and trains from doing the same thing, and setting up her own rival Guild even? To protect its members, the Guild needs to protect itself.

Personally, I get the impression that Nandi was ordered shunned because she packed up and left the Guild completely... presumably not every trainee becomes a Companion, one would think that those not cut out for the life of a Companion would be filtered to other areas within the Guild - support staff and whatnot - so that the Guild would still be getting something out of what they put in. But by leaving the Guild entirely, Nandi 'stole' her training without repaying her debt, and thus was cut off entirely for her choice.

Anyway, that's just my take on things :o)

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Monday, March 12, 2007 3:26 AM

Wheee! Guild talk!

I love the idea of a Guild that is not evil.

I think the main reason people so often like to put the Guild into that oppressive, evil role is that it's just so easy to do so - it's what we expect these days. We're a society that no longer automatically *trusts* - we don't trust the government, we don't trust the media, we don't trust big business - and I think that distrust has become our natural, knee-jerk reaction, so... giant Guild with power and influence throughout the galaxy? Must be bad.

It's almost anti-instinctual to see the Guild as something other than a big evil organization, but very refreshing!

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Monday, March 12, 2007 3:47 AM

Quote:
Just curious, but was there every any actual evidence in the show or movie that there *are* other Companions on the 'rim?

There was only but a suggestion.

"I should have done this weeks ago"
"But then I wouldn't have been here"

From War Stories.

Personally I do not care about wether it is good or not. I see it as a business, not necessarily evil, but not utopic either.

If it goes the extra mile to protect its member is that evil or the right thing to do? If it yields its influence to protect itself and its members, is that evil, or is it what needed to be done?

It is not a case of good or evil. No evil person is evil for the sake of being evil. it is a simplificatio that does not fit the firefly 'verse.

We have to remember that in the Pilot, the crew were saved because the alliance tried to save some lives.

The money robbed at the start of the BDM. It was wages for a month's work. We saw how poor that area was. Was Mal being evil to force them to more or less starve for a month? To cover their costs would those people have to participate in slavery?

Is Mal evil?

Even Blue Sun is not a "Wolfram & Hart". it is not a Big Bad, but a corporation. It helps some people, steps on others depending on where it's business priorities lie.

The whole verse is set in a grey void where nothing is necessarily good or evil. Acts are ambigious.

Back to the topic, I am not too bothered with how people portray the Guild. Good or bad.

The issue I have is where if the Guild has shady practices, fic writers generally make Inara olivious to them. (or they make her "evil", which goes against the character...)

She is not naive.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 5:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
The issue I have is where if the Guild has shady practices, fic writers generally make Inara olivious to them. (or they make her "evil", which goes against the character...)

She is not naive.

But neither is she ever portrayed as condoning bad things. She's generally the first to be on Mal's case about ethically questionable behavior, knowing full well that it gets her on his bad side. She's ready to give up her place on Serenity for the safety of two complete strangers in the pilot.

That just doesn't jive with the idea of her knowing that something untoward and presumably harmful to other people is going on in the Guild - and then just going away while it happens and still talking about the Guild with such pride in her voice whenever the Guild laws come up.

Inara may turn her back on romantic love (Mal) but she doesn't tend to turn her back to injustice being done. It's out of character.

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Monday, March 12, 2007 6:06 AM

At the same time she talks about indenture as it is an acceptable practice, even if it is to a law official trying to save Mal and Zoe.

At a minimum this shows that the Guild allows Companions to have indentured servants.

I do not consider indenture/slavery a good thing. It does not matter if the 'verse at large also finds it acceptable. It is still a negative strike.

Inara does not have indentured servants, but it would be accepable in the eyes of the Guild for her to do so. She knows that. She probably knows other companions who do have indentured servants.

This is never discussed as a way to show it is no longer an issue. It is accepted by many and legal, even if not moral.

Mal on the other hand does not hold to such notions, as shown in his petty thievery in Shindig. His justification (to himself) is that they are slavers.

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She's ready to give up her place on Serenity for the safety of two complete strangers in the pilot.

Now that is an interesting thing. Her position is not that they should not be killed, which is a reasonable request, but one of them not be left behind.

This leads to conspiracy theory time. Why is she onboard Serenity? Why did she threaten to leave unless Mal not only kept them alive, but onboard?

Why does she get a guilty look when Mal says it's none of her business?

Secondly from the crew, the only one whop really understand the Danger (with a capital D) are Mal, Jayne and Zoe (and river, but who'd believe her?). The rest are oblivious even as far as half way through the BDM.

And then there is her offer to help fence the lassiter. She also has contacts. in the criminal realm.

My point is that she is not naive. She understands the world she lives in. She knows she cannot have everything her way.

I do not see Inara as evil. At one point she even argues against Mal for trying to sell to the poor. But to say it is a simple matter of being good, it is all in the grey. Just like the rest of the 'verse.

The overall political situation is only ever hinted at, never fully delved into. Almost everyone in the verse is covered in grey where morals come into it. Part of why I like the 'verse.

(Apologies if my post is sounding a little harsh. I gotta fire this off quickly, then shoot off. No time for niceties right now.)

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Monday, March 12, 2007 6:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
At the same time she talks about indenture as it is an acceptable practice, even if it is to a law official trying to save Mal and Zoe.

At a minimum this shows that the Guild allows Companions to have indentured servants.

I do not consider indenture/slavery a good thing. It does not matter if the 'verse at large also finds it acceptable. It is still a negative strike.

True, like the shunning, it's not the best practice, but it probably is just a case of the Guild not forbidding its members what is perfectly legal.

I agree that it's a moral compromise, but on the other hand, we could start a discussion about the exact nature of indentured servitude as opposed to slavery and the many facets of that. (Indentured servitude being, apparently, time-limited and an imposed punishment for something.)

But it's still a difference between going along with morally questionable established institutions in society and actively participating in subverting the official values of a society.

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Quote:
She's ready to give up her place on Serenity for the safety of two complete strangers in the pilot.

Now that is an interesting thing. Her position is not that they should not be killed, which is a reasonable request, but one of them not be left behind.

As Inara says, leaving them behind would be akin to killing them. "Those two wouldn't survive a day on Whitefall anyway. If you throw them off, I'm leaving, too." So it's really abandonment and death she is arguing against and willing to blackmail Mal about.

Quote:

This leads to conspiracy theory time. Why is she onboard Serenity? Why did she threaten to leave unless Mal not only kept them alive, but onboard?

I guess, if you're into conspiracy theories, you'll see things there that others don't. :) To me it was all very self-explanatory, but then.. any situation can be questioned in this way.

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Why does she get a guilty look when Mal says it's none of her business?

I never considered the look to be guilty, but rather one of embarrassment and disappointment when her public attempt at emotional blackmail failed.

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Secondly from the crew, the only one whop really understand the Danger (with a capital D) are Mal, Jayne and Zoe (and river, but who'd believe her?). The rest are oblivious even as far as half way through the BDM.

I'm confused, what danger are you talking about?

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And then there is her offer to help fence the lassiter. She also has contacts. in the criminal realm.

She's also on Serenity, among the naughty men. *G*

Inara's certainly not the most Alliance-loyal, law-abiding person there ever was. I guess, like Mal, she makes a difference between morality and legality, just that their ideas of what is moral are a bit apart in certain areas.

Mal considers preventative murder fine, Inara doesn't. Mal gets huffy about Companioning, Inara doesn't. Etc.

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My point is that she is not naive. She understands the world she lives in. She knows she cannot have everything her way.

Certainly, but there's also the option of choosing not to partake, and I could easily see Inara leaving the Guild on account of her personal principles, should she be aware something she found fundamentally questionable, as you imply.

Quote:

(Apologies if my post is sounding a little harsh. I gotta fire this off quickly, then shoot off. No time for niceties right now.)

No apologies needed, I thought was fine. :)

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Monday, March 12, 2007 11:27 AM

ALLIETHORN7

Well...
EVIL is a relative term- to whoever is outside lookin' in, mind. Most folks wouldn't venture to call THEMSELVES evil, simply 'cause everyone wants to believe that they're the hero.
Myself, I'm a cynical bastard- I tend to look at most things in the worst of lights. Sometimes, I'll lighten up and give 'em a good outlook. Othertimes- well, yeah.
Truth is, the Guild is secretive. In my humble experience, secretive folks usualy have a particular reason as ta WHY they're secretive. And, therefore, they're a big, fat target, in my sights.
Maybe I'm wrong- yeah, probably. I have a disturbin' talent for being wrong about most folks. Still, the Guild is close to the Alliance- all worlds of NOT GOOD, ya?

-Danny

Our Idols lay in Ruins,
We'd have Saved them if we could,
But we still chose to Worship,
The places where our Idols STOOD!!!!!
THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!

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Monday, March 12, 2007 11:50 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
Originally posted by Alliethorn7:
Still, the Guild is close to the Alliance- all worlds of NOT GOOD, ya?

Really? Is the Alliance not good (or 'evil', if you will)? Like Joss mentioned in the Serenity movie commentary, I tend to believe that they're for the most part relatively benevolent (just like our own various governments). They may seem as though they are evil, or at best, inept, but that's more an issue of scale, not ability.

And, maybe that holds true with the Guild. The way it operates and the amount of things it operates with might be incompatible - what works on a small scale doesn't typically work on a large scale. There are rules, and laws, to protect its members and the clients; but maybe they don't always have time for everything that needs done, and a lot of "little" things get brushed under the rug (like speeding, not stoping at stop signs, etc. tend to in the US). And maybe those "little" things were enough for Inara to leave (although I like to think she was running from something largely unrelated to the Guild). She's not dissatisfied with the Guild overall, just some of their lax practices.

::shrugs::

(VERY IMPORTANT) Rules and voting: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=22892

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Alliethorn7:
Truth is, the Guild is secretive. In my humble experience, secretive folks usualy have a particular reason as ta WHY they're secretive. And, therefore, they're a big, fat target, in my sights.

I'm curious (I like to ask questions) why you think the Guild is necessarily secretive? We really saw next to nothing of the Guild in the series or the movie, so I'm wondering why it seems to be so to you?

I agree absolutely that evil is subjective. It's also subjective to our current social mores as opposed to what might be the accepted norm in the future, which makes it difficult to say what would or would not be construed as evil in that time frame. All very interesting :o)

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
Personally I do not care about wether it is good or not. I see it as a business, not necessarily evil, but not utopic either.

If it goes the extra mile to protect its member is that evil or the right thing to do? If it yields its influence to protect itself and its members, is that evil, or is it what needed to be done?

'good' and 'evil' are completely subjective terms, and how you see one or the other would be completely dependent on which side of the situation you happened to be on. Just like history is written by the victors :o)

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Even Blue Sun is not a "Wolfram & Hart". it is not a Big Bad, but a corporation. It helps some people, steps on others depending on where it's business priorities lie.

(didn't watch Angel or Buffy, or wherever Wolfram and Hart came from, but) I might argue with you on that point. There were hints that Blue Sun was involved in what happened to River, and if it was, I'd consider that that would make them a 'Big Bad' in my books. I don't think that simply because they are a buisness following their business priorities that they're excluded from being 'bad'. But again, it's my own subjective view on what's good or bad :o)

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The whole verse is set in a grey void where nothing is necessarily good or evil. Acts are ambigious.

I think that can be said of life, in general :o)

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The issue I have is where if the Guild has shady practices, fic writers generally make Inara olivious to them. (or they make her "evil", which goes against the character...)

She is not naive.

No, she's not, but I couldn't see her supporting the Guild if she knew it was involved in 'shady practices' either... so, to me that presents only two options: 1) The Guild is involved in shady practices that Inara doesn't know about, or 2) The Guild is not involved in any shady practices. :o) Because, yeah, 'evil' is out of character for her.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by nbz:
And then there is her offer to help fence the lassiter. She also has contacts. in the criminal realm.

I never actually saw this as indication that she had contacts in the criminal world, but rather that she would know of some private collectors who would be very interested in obtaining an item as precious as the lassiter and that she would make some discreet inquiries to discover if there was any interest. Granted, it would be an illegal deal, which I guess technically would make them criminals, but I'm thinking that's not quite the way in which you intended the word ;o)

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 6:55 AM

SPACEANJL

The thing about indentured servants is a very interesting point. I read it as being akin to certain early medieval practices, whereby someone would contract as a servant (NOT a slave) for a set length of time, usually in payment of a debt.

I like the fact that people do recognise that the world comes in shades of grey. It would be too simplistic to write off everyone on one side of a line as good, and all others as evil. It's more that everyone has an agenda.

The Guild may well be a thorn in the side of government, because it is a body apart, with a deal of influence. There are all sorts of interpretations. Joss wrote that Inara stands for what is good and admirable about the Core. 'enlightenment, education, self-possession, feminism' Which is not to say that greed, self-interest and insular bigotry don't exist there, too.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I agree that it's a moral compromise, but on the other hand, we could start a discussion about the exact nature of indentured servitude as opposed to slavery and the many facets of that. (Indentured servitude being, apparently, time-limited and an imposed punishment for something.)

Just thought I'd jump in here to say... I read ... somewhere, that the terra forming companies never would have been able to afford the massive costs of terra forming planets for habitation were it not for the use of indentured labour. (might have been the Roleplaying book)

Indentured servitude can be seen from both sides as well - to a dirt poor rim worlder, with no prospect of a better life, five years of indentured servitude in exchange for their own piece of land on a freshly terraformed planet may be an ideal situation *shrug* Unless it is strictly a form of punishment... then I guess you might look at it as a way to pay back a debt to society?? :o)

Like you said, it's obviously a prefectly acceptable practice in the Firefly verse, and it's our perceptions of what's right and wrong by today's standards that make us see it as wrong. Just as we no longer consider it acceptable for 13 year old girls to be married off to 45 year old men as was common practice not all that long ago in our own history :o)

It's what makes this discussion difficult, IMO, because we're making 'judgements' based on today's morals and social mores, which are bound to be different in the future that is the Firefly verse. But still very interesting ;o)

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:39 AM

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SpaceAnJL:
The thing about indentured servants is a very interesting point. I read it as being akin to certain early medieval practices, whereby someone would contract as a servant (NOT a slave) for a set length of time, usually in payment of a debt.

That's exactly how I was thinking of it too... which, if entered into willingly is not such a bad thing....

Quote:
The Guild may well be a thorn in the side of government, because it is a body apart, with a deal of influence.

Yeah :o) this is how I've liked to think of them, too. They are a separate entity, they may have regulations imposed upon them by the Alliance goverment, but with power and influence in their own right, which they can bring to bear when necessary.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 7:48 AM

MAL4PREZ

I second the question to Alliethorn - why do you think the Guild is secretive? About what?

Re Inara's vial - I believe the point of that was to give her a chance of surviving a Reaver attack. The Reavers would rape her and die, and she might survive, which is the episode that Tim roughly described. OK, so... Why would the Guild expect a Companion to be in this situation? Is that really what they meant it for? Who knows!

I don't think Inara's deal with Ath would have been indentured servitude. (Is that what you meant?) He thought of it that way, but he obviously misunderstood Companions, as Inara made clear to him after the duel. If she had stayed with him, it would have been a business deal, and I firmly believe she'd of had the power to end it if he mistreated her. There would be Guild laws for that. (No proof of this, but it seems so obvious to me, given what she told Ath.)

So - is the Guild evil? I certainly don't think so. I definitely think there could be groups within it who are up to bad things. I've been intrigued by the power they could hold if they tried, and have all kinds of ideas what Joss could have done with that. But the organization as a whole? I highly doubt it.

The interesting thing for me is that this is an entirely woman-run thing. There could be male Companions (as seems to be the case in the movie) but Joss says that every House is run by a woman. I've heard many woman (in real life) say that our own world and government would be entirely different if woman were running things I don't entirely agree with that, I think power corrupts everyone - but, in general, women do have a different way of handling conflict, and a different kind of lust for power.

But (whew, long-winded!) it's possible that the Guild is a way for Joss to play with the idea of an organization run by women, and to challenge our assumption that all large groups must be evil.

After all, he did minor in women's studies. You know that he thinks about these things...

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 8:05 AM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

If you have ever read any history books about the Geisha, the Companion's Guild would make perfect sense to you.

The guild exists to protect itself and it's members. Training houses bring honor to the individual houses and its members as well as power, wealth and influence to the house leaders.

They are secretive to protect themselves from competition and to generate an aura of mystique...which increases the value of a companion.

It was quite obvious to me that there is more than pleasure in the companion agenda. While everyone remembers Inara's vial, nobody seems to mention YaSaphBrig's special "lip gloss". It is yet ANOTHER CHEMICAL that acts on SOMEONE ELSE and NOT the user.

Yo had companion training...Inara was AMAZED at how well she was trianed. So that means 1. pleasure (the obvious), 2. entertainment (tea ceremony, balls, social events), 3. use of chemicals and poisons, 4. observation of people and events, 5. sociology and psychology, 6. manipulation of individuals, and 7. political intruige are ALL part of companion training. It is my personal suspicion that they may also be trained assassins...but trained to be VERY stealthy and subtle so no suspicion could be cast on the companion guild. A very small percentage of companions would actually receive this very high level training. It would make perfect sense that Inara may have been initially contacted for this type of work, but decided it was wrong and she would rather make her living on the rim. (Much as I suspect Shepard Book was a former operative).

Companions use this training for their own personal gain as well as promoting the continuation of the guild system. Belonging to the guild gives them status (Nandy did not have this "status" since going on her own), connections, and protection (the guild black mark system, etc..). In return, I am sure they pay HEFTY fees to the guild, or a commision to their training house for each client.

It does seem to be modeled a touch on the geisha system of historic japan, as well as a bit of Dune's Bene Gesserit training thrown in for fun.

~~~~~

"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
They are secretive to protect themselves from competition and to generate an aura of mystique...which increases the value of a companion.

I think you're making an assumption here. That there are certain elements of the Geisha that can be compared to Companions is certain, however there is no evidence that their houses are run in the same manner. We don't even know if there is more than one house per planet, to be honest... House Madrassa was on Sihnon, and there were 40 women there (according to Nandi in HoG) but there has been no mention of any other houses on Sihnon. One can assume there may be more, but there's also the possibility that Companions are so exclusive, there may only be one house per core planet. I'm not saying there couldn't be more, all I'm pointing out is that we can't just assume that the Guild is modelled solely on Geisha's.

Quote:
Yo had companion training...Inara was AMAZED at how well she was trianed. So that means 1. pleasure (the obvious), 2. entertainment (tea ceremony, balls, social events), 3. use of chemicals and poisons, 4. observation of people and events, 5. sociology and psychology, 6. manipulation of individuals, and 7. political intruige are ALL part of companion training.

Inara said that Saffron had had training, as in Companion, as in Academy, specifically, body language, and signals... but she did NOT say that Saffron WAS a Companion, so to ascribe everything Saffron does and/or is capable of to Companion Training is an assumption... that's not to say that Companions don't learn all those things, i'm sure they do, but it's not a given based on Inara's comments about Saffron...

Anyway, not trying to be snarky, but just wanted to point out that you're making a couple of assumptions that don't really have supportive evidence in the show...

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:29 AM

UNREGISTEREDCOMPANION

Of course I am making assumptions. Some evil bastards at Fox took care of us finding out the real "what for". (assholes)

But I did not say it was SOLELY based on Geisha training, but it is obviously an inspiration and contains many elements...including the tea ceremony and training houses.

I also did not claim there was one house per planet or any such thing. What I meant by "protecting themselves from competition" was that ANY woman can spread her legs for money if you get right down to it. So by creating a group of women who have more than just a convenient oriface raises their worth and value, and makes them a disirable entity that people are willing to pay good credits for.

As for YoSaf...for her to have companion training to such a quality that Inara would recognize it as being superior OUTSIDE the guild system is possible, but it is highly unlikely.

~~~~~

"Funny and sexy. You have no idea. And you never will."

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 9:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
Of course I am making assumptions. Some evil bastards at Fox took care of us finding out the real "what for". (assholes)

LOL! Indeed :o)

Quote:
I also did not claim there was one house per planet or any such thing. What I meant by "protecting themselves from competition" was that ANY woman can spread her legs for money if you get right down to it. So by creating a group of women who have more than just a convenient oriface raises their worth and value, and makes them a disirable entity that people are willing to pay good credits for.

no, I wasn't implying that you had claimed that, just making an observation :o)

I just don't really see the 'common whore' as competition for the Guild, for the very reasons you state... They're catering to an entirely differnt clientele, so I misunderstood and thought you meant the different training houses were in competition with each other - they could be, but I get a more 'sisterhood' feeling from the Guild than a 'lets be in competition with each other' feeling, but then, it's just that, my feelings... I'm sure I read/heard/saw something that put that in my head, but I'm not sure what it is at this moment.

Quote:
As for YoSaf...for her to have companion training to such a quality that Inara would recognize it as being superior OUTSIDE the guild system is possible, but it is highly unlikely.

oh, that's not what I meant at all. I think she definately did have Companion training from within the Guild, Inara says as much really, I just meant that, the fact that Saffron uses her poison lipstick, for example, doesn't necessarily tie into the Guild because Inara has her little black vial - there's been discussion further up on this thread about whether or not that vial even came from the Guild or not, actually :o) - and Simon made mention of Johns showing up at the hospital, after being robbed by the 'Goodnight Kiss', which implies that this was something used by prostitutes as opposed to Companions... I was merely saying that just because Saffron has had Companion training didn't mean that all her cunning, manipulation, and intrigue came as a direct result of that...

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Tuesday, March 13, 2007 10:49 AM

BLUEEYEDBRIGADIER

While I have made mention of my feelings before in another Inara-related thread, I think I will regurgitate and add to them here

As a theoretical idea, I am completely and 100% behind the idea of a guild of empowered, educated and independent women using their entire selves to bring comfort and clarity to those who are in need.

Does that mean the Guild is completely good? Nope...and neither does it make the Guild completely evil and manipulative. By the time of the pilot episode, the Companion's Guild is an established and influential organization with an elite cadre of visible "agents" or representatives to serve its will and/or mission statement. Just as the Alliance itself in benevolent, the Guild is a good thing; it’s those who serve as the eyes, ears and limbs of the greater organization that are dangerous.

For example, YoSaffBridge is someone who – according to Inara’s presumably experienced observations – is someone with advanced training that comes from either the Guild itself (making our favourite redheaded con-woman a rogue or former Companion/Companion trainee) or from someone intimately familiar with the Guild’s training curriculum who taught YoSaffBridge how to work her wiles properly. The Guild itself would legally be responsible for only keeping an eye on her so she can’t make with the mischief, not for providing training to either YoSaffBridge or her trainer in the first place. The Guild is not evil here, just lacking the best judge of character

Another recognized sticking issue is the mysterious reason(s) for Inara to leave her position as one of the top Companions – if the top Companion – at House Madrassa on Sihnon and rent a shuttle from an ex-Independent soldier. Based on all the canonical dialogue and scenes with Inara in them from the series, comics and BDM, we are given the impression that Inara can not and will not let an injustice go unrecorded or unpunished; this gives rise to the highly plausible – if still circumstantial – observation that whatever drove Inara to become a roving agent of the Guild was not someone insidious about the Guild itself. Personally, I would question this assertion, if only to stimulate debate about just how far Inara is willing to go for the greater good, since we have no idea about how the Guild deals with disciplinary issues involving clients and Companions other than stuff like what Atherton Wing pulled in Shindig earns a person a Black Mark in the Guild’s client registry of past and present clientele (cuz what good would such a punishment do if the offender’s file was pulled completely), and that a Companion severing ties to the Guild (like Nandi presumably did) earns the person a mark of shame and a Guild-wide proclamation of being off-limits to all Guild members. Inara could have fallen afoul of some Guild rule or faction that caused Inara to leave Sihnon but still bind her to the Guild for one reason or another. As someone pointed out already, the cost of training a Companion is presumably quite exorbitant, so the Guild could have decided that Inara needed a lesson but was still “salvageable.” Certainly another reason on top of her lessons for Inara to avoid developing something with Mal

BlueEyedBrigadier

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Come bid on my delectable derriere at the Sweet Charity auction! Buy me for a good cause;D

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 1:17 AM

SPACEANJL

Quote:
Originally posted by UnregisteredCompanion:
If you have ever read any history books about the Geisha, the Companion's Guild would make perfect sense to you.

Yo had companion training...Inara was AMAZED at how well she was trianed. So that means 1. pleasure (the obvious), 2. entertainment (tea ceremony, balls, social events), 3. use of chemicals and poisons, 4. observation of people and events, 5. sociology and psychology, 6. manipulation of individuals, and 7. political intruige are ALL part of companion training. It is my personal suspicion that they may also be trained assassins...but trained to be VERY stealthy and subtle so no suspicion could be cast on the companion guild. A very small percentage of companions would actually receive this very high level training.

It does seem to be modeled a touch on the geisha system of historic japan, as well as a bit of Dune's Bene Gesserit training thrown in for fun.

B]

Hmm. I was hoping to get my next fic punted out before someone jumped all over that. Damn. This goes back to a point I made about possible reasons for River. See, I think the Guild has an executive arm, in addition to its regular activities.

BTW, Joss may well mess with your heads. Why should a large group of women necessarily be good just because of their gender? That's as stereotypical in its own way.

Glad someone else gets the BG vibe. Mind you, I was watching 'House of Flying Daggers' and twitching, too.

I'm just waiting for the Inara-fic that rips off 'Memoirs of a Geisha'.

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Wednesday, March 14, 2007 4:03 AM