The Good, the Bad and the Ugly by Pyrophorus

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

POSTED BY: PYROPHORUS
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:39
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VIEWED: 4410
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Sunday, March 7, 2004 8:40 PM

Its great news that Firefly will be released on the big screen and attract a wider audience, but mainstream audiences may have different views about firefly.

What do you think will be the good attracting points? The bad repulsing points? And the Ugly unwanted points in lieu of a mainstream audience.

I see:

The Good:
Firefly is a "space weastern" with good storytelling, it brings it back to the oldschool where sci-fi wasn't all about effects (though there will be good effects) but good character development as well.

The Bad:
Allot of mainstreamers arn't gonna like the lack of sound in space.
The show will delimit itself from the bellow 12 crowd, what with the whorin' and all, as well as the tactless parents who can't go see movies without their kids.

The Ugly:
Advertisements will introduce the show as "From the creator of buffy the vampire slayer and angel... I like those shows, but I'd really perfer Firefly stand as its own epic, not needin' to piggyback off other successes.

Keep flyin'

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Sunday, March 7, 2004 8:47 PM

ECMORGAN69

Quote:
Originally posted by Pyrophorus:
The Bad:
Allot of mainstreamers arn't gonna like the lack of sound in space.
The show will delimit itself from the bellow 12 crowd, what with the whorin' and all, as well as the tactless parents who can't go see movies without their kids.

The Ugly:
Advertisements will introduce the show as "From the creator of buffy the vampire slayer and angel... I like those shows, but I'd really perfer Firefly stand as its own epic, not needin' to piggyback off other successes.

Keep flyin'

Ok, for the Bad, and the Ugly, I can't argue or add anything. You nailed it perfect. All the parents who can't go anyplace without their kids have no problem exposing their children to the mind-melting dreck of reality TV programming, but mention a little whoring, and OH NO! Anyway, the Ugly is prefect because we all know what those Hollywood clowns will do when it's time to promote "Serenity".

The Good - This will come down to Joss' writing. If he can keep the writing standards up without sacrificing too much to the Hollywood jerk-offs, then the dialogue alone will guarantee lots of ticket and DVD sales.

They can have my "Firefly" DVDs when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers....

Oh yeah,

you, FOX TV!!

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Sunday, March 7, 2004 9:22 PM

DJKILLJ0Y

I just hope in order to appease the producers they don't make any major character changes/alter background stories too much. And of course, I hope the original cast are all aboard.

I don't know if any one else here is a Hitchhiker's Guide fan, but I was a bit surprised to hear they casted Mos Def as Ford Prefect (at least as listed on the official Douglas Adams site). Heck, hey may be able to pull it off (I though Mos was pretty funny in Where's Marlowe and even...*disappointed sigh* The Italian Job), but I will always associate Ford with Geoffrey McGivern's voice in the BBC radio series and David Dixon in the (somewhat subpar) tv miniseries.

"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture." - Thelonious Monk

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Sunday, March 7, 2004 9:55 PM

TALONPEST

I don't see the bad and the ugly as negative things. First of all, even Star Wars is PG13. Second, no one complained about the lack of sound in space in the Alien movies, and in Serenity there most likely won't be a lot of ship-to-ship action anyway. If there is, they'll probably go atmospheric like they did in the pilot and in The Message.

And as for it having Joss Whedon's name and previous work attached to it, that can only really be a good thing. People who know his work will be drawn to it, and people who don't aren't going to think it's about vampires from any previews they see.

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Monday, March 8, 2004 6:33 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I think a lot of it is going to come down to how many people are converted by the DVD release and how the movie is advertised. As Joss said in the news release, he is going to make the movie bigger and more epic than the TV show, and wants to put some distance between the series and the movie.

I think the good part is that Joss has scored a huge fanbase w/ Buffy and Angel. Many of those fans may very well come out to see the movie since Joss wrote it and will direct. I think the chance to see a Joss movie may get many who would normally not go for sci fi to give the movie a chance.

The bad is obvious, the history of the show on Fox. Many people have still not heard of the show, and those that have that are not fans will only remember it as the show Fox cancelled, which they will automatically equate to it being bad. I am only hoping that marketing and write ups of the movie can convince some of them otherwise.

The ugly. I am thinking the ugly part is there is no big name actors to draw the celebrity watchers who go to see movies only because of who is in them. To me I would never want anyone on Serenity but our crew, but many people will not recognize any of the cast & may blow it off.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Monday, March 8, 2004 6:38 AM

GHOULMAN

Joss shows ARE accepted by the 'mainstream' audiences. It is the nerds who think Babylon 5 deserves a movie you need to watch out for. These bozos are far more interested in selling fascistic, insipid, crap like Enterprise to you.

Buffy proved the mass appeal of Joss stories. Relax. If it (the movie; Serenity) doesn't work I guarantee it won't be Joss' fault.

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Monday, March 8, 2004 6:52 AM

CUDA

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Joss shows ARE accepted by the 'mainstream' audiences.

Buffy proved the mass appeal of Joss stories.

Does anybody actually have some hard numbers on the size of the Buffy and Angel fan base? I mean, I know the fans are dedicated, but how many are there?

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Monday, March 8, 2004 8:56 AM

KNIBBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Pyrophorus:
The Ugly: Advertisements will introduce the show as "From the creator of buffy the vampire slayer and angel... I like those shows, but I'd really perfer Firefly stand as its own epic, not needin' to piggyback off other successes.

Not necessarily so, Pyro.
There are folks out there who wouldn't be caught dead at a Stephen King movie. How many of them realize that "Stand by Me"*, "Shawshank Redemption"** and the The Green Mile are King stories?

The studio whizes know all about snooty snobby types. They know that some folks will snap up Joss Whedon and some will ignore Joss Whedon.
Advertisements will be tailored to attract all audiences.

One advantage Firefly has over other sci-fi is, NO ALIENS and NO DUMBASS UNIFORMS. Browncoats might show up in browncoats, but you won't catch us showing up with a horrible rubber turtles glued to our foreheads. You won't see us wearing skintight (ugh!) catsuit creating a god awful amount of camel toe.

Honey, that's an advantage as far as "normals" are concerned.

*"The Body"
*"Rita Hayworth and the Shawshank Redemption"

"Just keep walkin, preacher man."

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Monday, March 8, 2004 12:04 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Joss shows ARE accepted by the 'mainstream' audiences. It is the nerds who think Babylon 5 deserves a movie you need to watch out for. These bozos are far more interested in selling fascistic, insipid, crap like Enterprise to you.

Deep breaths. Find your happy place.. find your happy place.... nope, its gone. Joss' shows aren't accepted by the mainstream audience, neither are Chris Carter's shows, neither are JMS' shows. Buffy never did stellar numbers, although it did get into the public conscience - X-Files is perhaps an exception (I forget, but think it did some decent numbers once upon a time).

Yes, a Babylon 5 fan will try and sell Enterprise to you. That's exactly what a B5 fan would do.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 4:28 AM

GHOULMAN

^^^ breath my friend, and grok that anything with Bruce Boxleitner isn't really worth it.

And hey, you state that X-Files isn't... but was! Yea, I see where it's confusing and I certainly don't know the answers. However, I do devine that despite the cult stylings of Joss Whedon shows thier wonderful characters ALWAYS keeps the viewers it gains.

It's all about the gaining of viewers. Once someone watches a few Joss shows they ALWAYS come back.

So what is the answer??? GRASS ROOTS marketing.

After all, I don't trust 'versal Pictures to do the marketing any more than FOX or the WB or UPN or any of the others that have failed over and over to do anything with Joss' work. Oh, getting bitter in my typing... must be happy. Shiny!

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 4:37 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Ghoulman wrote:

Quote:
So what is the answer??? GRASS ROOTS marketing.

After all, I don't trust 'versal Pictures to do the marketing any more than FOX or the WB or UPN or any of the others that have failed over and over to do anything with Joss' work. Oh, getting bitter in my typing... must be happy. Shiny!

Right on the money GM.

As I pointed out in this thread:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=2&t=4177

we as Browncoats are going to have to pitch in and do our part to make the movie a success. We will need to do some major marketing to generate interest in the movie. We have to insure that people see the movie instead of blowing it off because they think it will flop because the series was cancelled.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 12:18 PM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
^^^ breath my friend, and grok that anything with Bruce Boxleitner isn't really worth it. [/qupte]

Tron? Scarecrow and Mrs King? You have no soul

But didn't Buffy lose viewers? In part that's natural progression of a long running show. Besides, my point wasn't that, it was that Buffy was never mainstream popular, although it managed to create a bigger footprint than it did viewing figures (one of the reasons UPN wanted it). Angel never did that (although its as good, if not better than Buffy).

You say that JW shows always keep the viewers they gain, which as far as I know wasn't the case - else the final episode would have been bigger than M*A*S*H*.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 1:14 PM

SPIKEANDJEZEBEL

No offense meant to anyone, but what's with all the Babylon 5 bashing in this thread? I loved B5, and until Joss Whedon's 3 series came along, would have said it was possibly the best science fiction that American tv had ever produced. It had (for the most part) well-developed characters and intricate story arcs, and in that respect I believe it paved the way for Buffy and Firefly.

And for the record, I wouldn't be caught dead watching Enterprise, which I find derivative and uninspired. I can't imagine that too many B5 fans or Firefly fans would find it too interesting.

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 3:19 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
No offense meant to anyone, but what's with all the Babylon 5 bashing in this thread? I loved B5, and until Joss Whedon's 3 series came along, would have said it was possibly the best science fiction that American tv had ever produced. It had (for the most part) well-developed characters and intricate story arcs, and in that respect I believe it paved the way for Buffy and Firefly.

And for the record, I wouldn't be caught dead watching Enterprise, which I find derivative and uninspired. I can't imagine that too many B5 fans or Firefly fans would find it too interesting.

Amen. B5 was my favorite series until Firefly. Hell, it brought the serial back to grace. DS9, which was the last and best Star Trek in my opinion, was pretty much a direct rip-off of B5. I think Buffy, Angel, Firefly, and several others now use the serial format thanks to B5's success.

Anyway, here's my Good, Bad, and Ugly:
THE GOOD: It's F'n Firefly! It's got humor, drama, action, sex, depth, plot, history...
OK, it's just F'n Firefly!
THE BAD: For people who haven't seen the series there might be gaps in the story. I know Joss Whedon said it's a story removed from the series, but there might still be some aspects that are missed. Plus, if the story is removed from the series too much, will there be aspects from the story that we fans will miss? I.e., the silence in space, some of the backstory or characters being changed, or even the western aspect.
THE UGLY: I like good westerns. Young Guns I and II, Lonesome Dove, Amercan Outlaws, and others, but for the past few years a western in the movie theaters has been a deathmark. Here's to hoping we can change history.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 3:19 PM

SHADOWVESSEL

Quote:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
No offense meant to anyone, but what's with all the Babylon 5 bashing in this thread? I loved B5, and until Joss Whedon's 3 series came along, would have said it was possibly the best science fiction that American tv had ever produced. It had (for the most part) well-developed characters and intricate story arcs, and in that respect I believe it paved the way for Buffy and Firefly.

And for the record, I wouldn't be caught dead watching Enterprise, which I find derivative and uninspired. I can't imagine that too many B5 fans or Firefly fans would find it too interesting.

"I'll be in my bunk."

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 6:43 PM

PYROPHORUS

Babylon 5 was a decent series, the implementation of multi-episodic story arcs really diswayed series such as the start and end at the same spot unless its a to be continued Star Trek TNG (Which I'm not saying was bad). It paved the way for character depth and a scalable universe (IE no Insert Generic Alien #241). That said, it was still larger than belief.

Shows like Space Above and Beyond and Earth 2 (Some of my favourites

too bad they were canned by fox too

) paved the way for a more believable scalable universe where the characters don't have to rely on alien makeup in order to portray difference and development.

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 7:12 PM

VETERAN

Don't squat with your spurs on.

The bad is that it was cancelled in the first place.

The ugly is the possiblity of creative interfernce from the studio.

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Tuesday, March 9, 2004 7:39 PM

ANKHAGOGO

Quote:
Originally posted by Pyrophorus:
The Ugly:
Advertisements will introduce the show as "From the creator of buffy the vampire slayer and angel... I like those shows, but I'd really perfer Firefly stand as its own epic, not needin' to piggyback off other successes.

I have to agree with this. Without even straining my brain, I can think of several people I know who would like Firefly who wouldn't go see it if the ads played up the "From the creator of Buffy & Angel" angle. They've got a very negative idea of what anything connected with those two shows would be like and will immediately decide they won't be interested.
Whoever brought up Stephen King and his quieter movies was absolutely right. To alot of people, it's inconceivable that one writer can move between genres, and anything from a "horror" writer has to be "horror".
I think just "from Joss Whedon" might work best --more mainstream viewers will probably think the name sounds a bit familiar, but won't really know why. And the theater trailers should be long enough to prove that there ain't no vampires, demons, monsters (of the non-human variety) to those who do know what Whedon's done before.

"Jayne is a girl's name."

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Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:41 AM

GHOULMAN

I agree - Joss Whedons' Serenity

This would be the best way to present all Joss stuff in the future. Though I think people who reject Buffy and Angel out of hand prolly don't swim in the deep end.

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Wednesday, March 10, 2004 11:39 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by ShadowVessel:
Originally posted by spikeandjezebel:
No offense meant to anyone, but what's with all the Babylon 5 bashing in this thread? I loved B5, and until Joss Whedon's 3 series came along, would have said it was possibly the best science fiction that American tv had ever produced. It had (for the most part) well-developed characters and intricate story arcs, and in that respect I believe it paved the way for Buffy and Firefly.

Finally the back up arrives! I've been starting to fear that everyone forgot that B5 was the first space set show to go beyond 3 seasons (that didn't have the word Star Trek in front), that chnaged the way many SF shows were run, that even raised the game of Berman and co - DS9 may have been a veeeeerrry close copy, but they did manage to create some good stuff.

Can't claim to have paved the way for Buffy because the movie came first, but its possibly true that Farscape and Firefly might not be here but for B5, which showed you could do a space show, do it cheap, and be profitable.

Okay, so Farscape and FF ignored the "do it cheap" by all accounts, but what the hey.

"I threw up on your bed"

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