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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Okay, new thread. For all of those that subscribe to some form of Judeo-Christian religion that involves Heaven, Hell, Satan, Jesus, God, and our guest star, The holy Spirit himself. With a reflection of your current behavior and beliefs, plus your actions, plus all the thoughts that you have in your head on a daily bases.

If you were to die today. Do you think that you are going to Heaven or Hell?

I'll go first. If I were to die today I would go straight to hell. There would be no need for any form of judgment because I would have already admitted that I have lived my life in such a fashion that merits hell. My crime is I hate humanity and wish to see it destroyed. I see God's creation as a joke and the fact that God could create such a flawed creature called man shows that God himself is flawed and not worthy of worship. And also if I had the means to destroy humanity, it would HAVE been destroyed; I see no good in humanity. This is my primary crime against God and humanity.

My secondary crimes are the usual: Hate, lust, and talking smack against my neighbor. Greed is also high on the list, which I am guilty of all. I also like to kick people while they are down. I think I get a charge out of it, which is rather evil and petty.

In my heart of heart I've always knew that I would go to hell. When it gets right down to it...it is where someone like me belongs, and besides, I was never supposed to be here in the 1st place.

So before this thread gets tossed off into the bowels of Troll Country, what about you ladies and gentlemen? Where are you going to go...Heaven, or Hell?

-River

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Originally posted by Causal:
The interesting thing about this is that we can't all be right. Leaving aside the postmodern disdain for truth, let's go with correspondence theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_theory_of_truth): truth is that which corresponds with the way things actually are. So two contradictory propositions can't be both be true in virtue of the law of non-contradiction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction). Sor for instance, the propositions "There is a hell," and, "There is not a hell" cannot both be true. One must be false. And by the Law of Excluded Middle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle) given any proposition (e.g. "There is a hell") then the further proposition "Either there is a hell or there is not a hell" is true (even if the truth value of the original proposition is unknown). So the thing that fascinates me about this is not that people disagree; that's bound to happen. The thing that fascinates me is that sometimes people behave as if their belief alone is sufficient for something's being true. But that's not the case. Suppose that it turns out that there really is no heaven at all. If that's the case, the belief that there is one is false, no matter how hard anyone believes it. And, if it turns out that there is no heaven at all, no one will go there, no matter how hard they believe it. Reality doesn't map onto our beliefs about it. It just is. The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

________________________________________________________________________
- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

Vote for Firefly! http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Originally posted by Causal:
The interesting thing about this is that we can't all be right. Leaving aside the postmodern disdain for truth, let's go with correspondence theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_theory_of_truth): truth is that which corresponds with the way things actually are. So two contradictory propositions can't be both be true in virtue of the law of non-contradiction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction). Sor for instance, the propositions "There is a hell," and, "There is not a hell" cannot both be true. One must be false. And by the Law of Excluded Middle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle) given any proposition (e.g. "There is a hell") then the further proposition "Either there is a hell or there is not a hell" is true (even if the truth value of the original proposition is unknown). So the thing that fascinates me about this is not that people disagree; that's bound to happen. The thing that fascinates me is that sometimes people behave as if their belief alone is sufficient for something's being true. But that's not the case. Suppose that it turns out that there really is no heaven at all. If that's the case, the belief that there is one is false, no matter how hard anyone believes it. And, if it turns out that there is no heaven at all, no one will go there, no matter how hard they believe it. Reality doesn't map onto our beliefs about it. It just is. The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

And, since we're being asked: heaven. But even though I'm a Christian-type person, I don't have a traditionally Augustinian vision of heaven. My view is closer to that of the Patristics.

________________________________________________________________________
- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

Vote for Firefly! http://richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html

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Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

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Originally posted by DonCoat:

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Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

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Or not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Originally posted by DonCoat:

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Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

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Or not.

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Originally posted by Causal:

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Originally posted by DonCoat:

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Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

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Or not.

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Planning to live forever, are we?

Death and taxes, my friend--we're all going to die. Ergo, we'll all be confronted with whatever reality brings at the time of death. Even if that's annihilation, and we aren't conscious of the reality of it, we'll still all get confronted with it. You might say that in some sense, death is one of the only reality that we'll encounter in its unvarnished state.

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Originally posted by DonCoat:
What I dispute is the notion that "we will be confronted by the reality of what happens after we die", necessarily. If, as I suspect, man is meat (to quote Joseph Heller), nothing happens after we die... so there will be neither need nor opportunity to confront anything.

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Originally posted by Causal:
But I do know this: I will die.

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Originally posted by Causal:
Reality will be what happens, regardless of what we believe about it. For instance, suppose that we aren't meat (just for the sake of argument), that instead we reincarnate. When you die, you're not just going to cease to exist, you're going to reincarnate, whether you believe in that or not. Now I don't know for certain what happens (that is, I don't know with absolute certainty). But I do know this: I will die. And whatever the reality of death is, it will happen to me, regardless of what I believe about it now.

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Originally posted by DonCoat:

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Originally posted by Causal:

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Originally posted by DonCoat:

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Originally posted by Causal:
The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

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Or not.

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Planning to live forever, are we?

Death and taxes, my friend--we're all going to die. Ergo, we'll all be confronted with whatever reality brings at the time of death. Even if that's annihilation, and we aren't conscious of the reality of it, we'll still all get confronted with it. You might say that in some sense, death is one of the only reality that we'll encounter in its unvarnished state.

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You misunderstood me, Causal. I am a total realist and do not dispute my mortality.

What I dispute is the notion that "we will be confronted by the reality of what happens after we die", necessarily. If, as I suspect, man is meat (to quote Joseph Heller), nothing happens after we die... so there will be neither need nor opportunity to confront anything.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm pointin' right at it!

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Originally posted by Causal:
The interesting thing about this is that we can't all be right. Leaving aside the postmodern disdain for truth, let's go with correspondence theory ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondence_theory_of_truth): truth is that which corresponds with the way things actually are. So two contradictory propositions can't be both be true in virtue of the law of non-contradiction ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction). Sor for instance, the propositions "There is a hell," and, "There is not a hell" cannot both be true. One must be false. And by the Law of Excluded Middle ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_excluded_middle) given any proposition (e.g. "There is a hell") then the further proposition "Either there is a hell or there is not a hell" is true (even if the truth value of the original proposition is unknown). So the thing that fascinates me about this is not that people disagree; that's bound to happen. The thing that fascinates me is that sometimes people behave as if their belief alone is sufficient for something's being true. But that's not the case. Suppose that it turns out that there really is no heaven at all. If that's the case, the belief that there is one is false, no matter how hard anyone believes it. And, if it turns out that there is no heaven at all, no one will go there, no matter how hard they believe it. Reality doesn't map onto our beliefs about it. It just is. The best we can hope for is that our beliefs accurately map onto reality, because eventually we will all be confronted with the reality of what happens after we die.

And, since we're being asked: heaven. But even though I'm a Christian-type person, I don't have a traditionally Augustinian vision of heaven. My view is closer to that of the Patristics.

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Originally posted by zoid:

I also don't expect to see only Christians there. That makes me a heretic. So be it. I follow in the footsteps of the greatest heretic Judaism has ever known. I believe that God provides a way for everyone who seeks him, so that they may be reunited with Him once they've discarded these crude bodies in which we have been confined.




God Loves You All (whether you believe in Him or not),

zoid

P.S.
I expect to 'see' Ghandi in 'Heaven'...and Einstein, too.
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Originally posted by leadb:
I fear I must disagree with you. You see, in god's infinite wisdom, he makes us all right.

If you believe in heaven, and think you belong there; that's where you end up. Likewise hell. If you believe in re-incarnation, god is wonderously obliging, and sends you back as a grasshopper (or whatever). Believe there is no life after death; that's ok by the big-guy, he's happy to oblige -- poof gone!

Let's remember the omni in omniscient and omnipotent. And if he doesn't have a sense of humor... we're screwed anyway (note: 'he' is the indefinite pronoun of the english language, please fill in he/she if you find that "helpful")


Frankly, I've decided to go to heaven. I figure its got a good view of things, and that ought to keep me a amused for a while. Get tired of that, I'll try that re-incarnation thing.

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Originally posted by leadb:
I fear I must disagree with you. You see, in god's infinite wisdom, he makes us all right.

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Originally posted by Clearstatic:
I am a youth minister in Minnesota. I went to a bible college. By most I am considered a conservative Christian and yes I do believe in a heaven and hell. I do respect others opinions that do differ from mine, but I don't agree. There is a big difference however, many people do treat those as the same. I do have to say this is the first conversation I have read about Christianity/Religion without really aggressive and hate filled posts. Thank you all for this topic it is really good to discuss such matters.

I do understand that nobody knows me here since I believe this is my thrid post, but I just want to through this out there. If anyone has a prayer request I'm all ears and would love to pray for you.

Take Care

Clearstatic

P.S. Most translations of the Bible have Jesus' words in red ink not just the King James Version in case anyone was looking for another translation.

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Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

May we never let Firefly die.

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Originally posted by jtskier1200r:
Im coming out of the woodwork after a long hiatus on these boards for this question.

River6213, your initial comment said you believe you would go to hell. Why do you think that? Where are you getting the idea that lust and greed are bad? You must believe they are bad and yet you still do them. Seems that something outside of yourself must be saying they are bad, and Im guessing "society" isnt enough, for we all buck what society says often enough. For me, that thing by which I get my ideas of evil and good from is God. Where do you get yours?

Just a thought.

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Originally posted by LittleAlbatross29:
I am pagan ,so according to the Judeo -Christian philosophy..I'm gonna burn.
But I don't believe in hell..so it doesn't matter to me.

See you there River ! We can have a drink.


Bryce
*******

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Originally posted by Causal:
Is it just in eternal matters that God has to obey you? Or in other areas too?

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Plus, the "omni" in omnipotent might not mean what you think. You'll be bucking the majority of thinkers going back well over a thousand years if you think that God can do the logically impossible (like make a round square or make it such that one and one make three). God's omnipotence is limited to the logically possible.

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It doesn't limit God to say that he can't do the logically impossible, because when you say, "God can make a round square" you're not really saying anything coherent at all, because what you're saying is, "God can make something both be and not be at one and the same time and in one and the same way" and that's logically impossible. Why? Because the laws of logic are what they are in virtue of who God is. Violating the laws of logic would constitute a violation of his own nature, and that's something that God cannot do. It's like the old question, "Can God make a rock so big he can't lift it?" That's just nonsense, and nonsense is still nonsense, whether you're talking it about God or not.

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In the second place, I'm not saying that God can't dispose of his creatures however he sees fit, but I just can't see him doing to them whatever the creature would have him do. I'm sure that Hitler wouldn't choose to go to hell, if given the choice. I'm pretty sure that he'd choose heaven. But there's something repugnant about the idea of a "God" who would give Hitler an in on heaven just because that's what Hitler wanted.

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If this is the case, then God isn't really God at all. He makes no demands on us, has no expectations, any and all behavior is permissible with no eternal repercussions. He exists (on your view) solely to shunt us all into our self-selected eternal destiny: God the celestial switch-tracks. What I want to know is, if God is as wondrously obliging, why doesn't he fix things in the here and now?

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If God is so concerned with our needs and desires, why is there evil in the world?

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Your God seems pretty heartless: more or less willing to allow us to visit any and all sorts of evil on each other lift a finger to stop them and he'll levy no consequences either here or in the hereafter.

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My point is that there is some reality about all the things that we've been talking about. Some of us (or maybe none of us) are right, some of us (maybe all of us) are wrong. But there is some proposition that can be advanced concerning what happens at death that will accurately map onto reality. And you could be right: it could be that God is just a kindly old gentleman who wants his creatures to have the best after they're dead. Suppose that God is that kindly old gentleman. When you die, God will obligingly send you wherever your heart desires, and you may spend eternity in heaven. But suppose you're wrong. Suppose that it's not the case that God will oblige you. If that turns out to be the case, no amount of your believing will change the matter. Because a thing is true in virtue of whether it is, in fact, the way reality really is. And if there really is no God, you're going to pop out of existence with the rest of us. And if there is a judgmental God, you'll burn with the rest of us. What is true is not true in virtue of whether LeadB believes it

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; what is true is true in virtue of whether it is, in fact, the way things really are. I hope, for you're sake, that God turns out to be the kindly old gentleman, because if not, you're in for quite a surprise, no matter what the truth of the matter is!

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
There are two competing theories in my family.

First the Irish Catholic side believes in the Works Theory. That one’s actions determine their eligibility for heaven. People who have preformed enough good in life will be allowed into heaven. Those that haven’t must seek other options. How much good you have to do is an open question.

Second are the Southern Baptists who believe in the Grace Theory. I’ll admit, I don’t understand this one as clearly. That is that no human being can ever do enough good to overcome the original sin to make it into heaven, but one’s eligibility for heaven can be guaranteed if one is “saved by the grace of god.” That is one has received a ‘free pass’ to heaven, I suppose. So the question of how much good needs to be done becomes necessarily moot, but now the question is how do you define being “saved.” If you’re guaranteed access to heaven by being saved, that sort of suggests an opportunity for abuse, but if you’re truly saved then you necessarily want to do good. So that means that if you get saved and go murder a bunch of people or talk in the theater, then you were never really saved to begin with. So the process of being saved is dependent, evidently, on one’s own free will.

So where do I fall in to this?

Technically, I’m Catholic. Or sometimes Baptist if it shuts someone up. But I really don’t know where I’m going, the math is too complicated for me to crunch. However, let me give you a reading from the book of Constantine:

“I guess there's a plan for all of us. I had to die - twice - just to figure that out. Like the book says, He works in mysterious ways. Some people like it. Some people don't.”

Personally, I like it.

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Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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I believe that God knows, or knew already who was going to be in, or out. Who was going to go to heaven or hell trillions of years before anyone of us was born. I figure in the long run...what's the point?

To hell I go!

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Originally posted by leadb:

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I believe that God knows, or knew already who was going to be in, or out. Who was going to go to heaven or hell trillions of years before anyone of us was born. I figure in the long run...what's the point?

To hell I go!

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you posit there is no free will then?

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Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

May we never let Firefly die.

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Originally posted by zoid:

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Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

May we never let Firefly die.

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I'd like to take a stab at this one, too.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within each of us, and that -- because of the essential change in the nature of Man that His coming heralded -- that no person needed an interceding agent (priest, preacher or rabbi) to talk to their God, ever again. Jesus Christ therefore represents a new covenant between God (Whom it should be pointed out identifies Himself only as "I am") and all of Humanity.

With me so far? Good. Here's where it gets a little twisty...

Jesus was a human man. He was born of a woman. He laughed, he cried; he felt God's power flow through Him, and He experienced His time in the wilderness. His earthly body was wracked with pain, and then perished...

In other words, He was exactly like you and me. But He wasn't like other people of His time. He had the Kingdom of God within Him. Within Him was the only temple of worship necessary to commune with God. When He died -- like any other human -- he opened a doorway to God that had not previously existed.

...A little bendy for the old noggin', yeah? I hope you're still tracking, though, cuz there's one more twist...

Remember that Jesus is not only God's son, He is God, Himself. By communing with the Divine Human within all of us (Jesus), we are also talking directly to God the Creator, as well as God the Omnipresent Companion (Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost).

***So to answer your question -- and I hope I'm not making too broad a conceptual leap for y'all to follow, I'm just trying to be brief -- a pre-Cook Hawaiian native, for example, would not be necessarily consigned to eternal damnation.*** It is by the search for God -- by whatever name, to include the broad-as-you-can-possibly-get, "I am" -- and by following His "still, small voice" within each of us, that one gains the Kingdom of God.

Many hellfire types of whatever Man-made religion will steadfastly hold that one cannot get anywhere but Hell unless you believe on Christ. I contend that, like His own disciples, they have missed Jesus' point entirely. What a surprise. Yes, He said that no one could get to the Father's kingdom unless they believe in Him. But Jesus had previously said that the Kingdom is already within us all.

When He perished on the cross, the gap between Man and God was forever bridged. To find Jesus/God, one need only look inside oneself. To the extent that anyone will look inside their self to find God/"I am", they will find Him, by whatever name or even none at all. To the extent that they then obey God's will for them, they grow in spiritual unity with God. (NB: Please see the P.S., below.) Take it from one who knows: Oneness with God is a heavenly reward on Earth. I look forward to the day when God takes me home, free at last of the trials of Spirit, and of the errors ('sin') inherent in biology...

To River6213:
I agree with your assessment of your soul's probable destination, based on your accounts. And you're right: It's definitely the reptilian and early mammalian reflexes that are ruling and dooming you. I would pray for you, but there is only one prayer that can save you, and that is yours. I think the Holy Spirit is moving on you, in a powerful way. The proof is that you so clearly recognize the nature of your erroneous ('evil') behavior. God is calling you. The only question that remains is what will you do about it? You have erected a formidable wall and -- like you -- I don't know if you have the strength to tear it down. I know a Man who can help, if you ask Him to. But...

So, I grieve for you. Not for you as a flailing biological entity, trapped by your body's chemical oozings into a loveless, joyless earthly life. I grieve for the inner you, the eternal You, misshapen and stunted in its cage of flesh and animal impulses.

But remember this: While you yet draw breath, there is still time to break the chains that bind your soul. I pray, instead, that at some point you will stop shouting down the inner you, that you will lay aside your facade as vanity, and find that God is and has always been within you.



Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
God = Love. Jesus instructed us to love our neighbors, our enemies, as we love ourselves. Again, this is because God resides in all of us (even if He is being ignored, reviled). If we consign others to eternal damnation, then we hate our fellow humans, and that does not come from God. Jesus warned thus. And yet many 'Christians' are unabashedly judgmental and vengeful and all manner of other kinds of what basically boil down to hateful. Being willfully proud of one's own salvation, to the extent that one can condemn another soul to eternal damnation is Anti-Christian. I charge anyone who fits this particular bill to repent at once, and to forsake those who have led you so far astray of the Lord.

Just as I earlier said that I expect to see many non-Christians in 'Heaven', I likewise expect to see many 'Christians' missing from God's Kingdom. And Jesus foretold that, as well...

_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Awwww...
Nice words and all Zoid, but don't preach at us (or at me at least) okay? Just tell us where you think you are going to go...heaven or hell???? Based on all that gospel stuff you just threw at us I put $100 down on you think you're going to heaven. Well who knows, maybe you are one of God's chosen.

-River

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Originally posted by zoid:

RiveR6213 replied:

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Awwww...
Nice words and all Zoid, but don't preach at us (or at me at least) okay? Just tell us where you think you are going to go...heaven or hell???? Based on all that gospel stuff you just threw at us I put $100 down on you think you're going to heaven. Well who knows, maybe you are one of God's chosen.

-River

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I've made 2 very lengthy responses in this thread, in both of which I stated my certainty that there is a 'Heaven', and that I would go there when my allotted time on Earth is done. So, not much of a $100 gamble, RiveR6213, unless you also like to bet on tape delays of sporting events.

Maybe you should try reading some of the "nice words and all", before you accuse me of preaching at you. All I did was agree that you were probably going to Hell. I also agreed with you that you probably lacked the means to stop yourself from going there. But you seem perfectly content to go, so where's the aggro, babe? I mean, if you're going to Hell, it's a pretty safe assumption that Aggravation is gonna be a spoonful of sorbet between courses on the daily menu...

To be fair, I did say that I strongly feel that God is practically screaming at you to listen to reason. So, maybe that was a tad preachy; but, that really shouldn't get your knickers in such a twist. You're damn-sure where you're going, so why should my lame attempt to help you find some happiness offend you?

Just to set us straight, though, and all teasing aside: I apologize for reaching out to you in an inappropriate way. It was purely an instinctive reaction.



Non-Calvinistically,

zoid

P.S.
I'll give you the Chicago Bears and 11 points in SB XLI, quadruple-or-nothing on your original $100 bet. What'd'ya say?
_________________________________________________

"I aim to misbehave." -Capt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity, a.k.a. 'the BDBOF'

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
*BTW, Causal, I didn't know you were such a deep thinker*

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Originally posted by leadb:
The finish here is a bit weak. So... you are using the old gem "better to believe in the judgemental God of the Christians because you go to hell if you don't; and if there is no God it doesn't matter?" Hmmm, ok. What if the "reality" of god is offended by such sentimentalities, and finds instead the mindset of the typical Hindu much more appealing. The Hindu goes to 'heaven' (despite not necessarily believing in one, as you point out, the Hindu's belief or lack of it will not cause the heaven to vanish) while the poor Christian suffers the fate of whatever 'hell' happens to be in the "reality" as you are fond of calling it.
(edit:) -or- are you just saying I'll be surprised? In which case I'm willing to posit I'll be "surprised" almost no matter what; key here is "expect the unexpected."

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Originally posted by xitwound117:
To those who subscribe to religiousity, mainly of the Jesus kind: do y'all really believe the "if you don't accept Jesus you burn" business? I can't tell if that's actually part of the faith, or some extremist part. I've been to church more than I'd like, but I can't seem to nail down an answer.

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