Alliance Flags and Symbols by Kozure

Thanks for the insight, ffying2.

I suspected that they might mean "Alliance" - it's the most obvious choice - but then again the most obvious choice isn't always the right one.

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

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Wednesday, March 17, 2004 8:24 PM

FFYING2

Quote:
Originally posted by Kozure:
Thanks for the insight, ffying2.

You're welcome, Kozure. Is that "kozure" as in Japanese 子連れ , (accompanied by child, with child in tow)?
-----

Quote:
Originally posted by flametree:
always good to hear from you ffying2

xie xie ni

Wow, xie xie back.

Ying
Firefly Funsite http://fireflyfunsite.home.att.net
Firefly Chinese Pinyinary http://fireflychinese.home.att.net

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:32 AM

FLAMETREE

Ni Hao kozure / ffying2

yes inspired by hearing people speak mandarin worse than I do and by your great pingyingary I have started taking lessons to improve my very poor knowledge.

Ni3 shi3 wo3 lao3shi ffying2.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 5:44 AM

Quote:
You're welcome, Kozure. Is that "kozure" as in Japanese 子連れ , (accompanied by child, with child in tow)?

Yes, it's a nod to Kozure Okami, the 'baby-cart samurai' of "Lone Wolf and Cub" graphic novel, movie and TV show fame.

I like the nickname because it's the name of one of my favourite fictional characters, and the six letters rearranged can refer obliquely to my real initials. "k.z.o. u r e"

My wife likes the nickname because she thinks I'll be a great dad someday (God-willing).

I'm wondering if any other Alliance symbology has been seen.

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 6:49 AM

I just posted my first cut at the Alliance flag in the Blue Sun Room. Please provide any feedback especially on the proportions and the placement of the stars. -- Trooper

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:20 AM

LINDLEY

Here's another view of the Alliance flag, from "Bushwacked".

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:28 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kozure:
Quote:
You're welcome, Kozure. Is that "kozure" as in Japanese 子連れ , (accompanied by child, with child in tow)?

Yes, it's a nod to Kozure Okami, the 'baby-cart samurai' of "Lone Wolf and Cub" graphic novel, movie and TV show fame.

I like the nickname because it's the name of one of my favourite fictional characters, and the six letters rearranged can refer obliquely to my real initials. "k.z.o. u r e"

Love that comic Kozure. Glad to see I am not the only one here.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:31 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Trooper:
I just posted my first cut at the Alliance flag in the Blue Sun Room. Please provide any feedback especially on the proportions and the placement of the stars. -- Trooper

Nice looking flag Trooper. Looks right on the money to me.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:43 AM

Thanks. I used the labels on the crate in "The Train Job" as my source. Lindley's image from "Bushwacked" shows the flag as a square. Maybe the proportions can be variable depending on the application.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 7:49 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

I suppose you could alter the proportions a bit to make it square. Wouldn't be difficult to do.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Trooper:
I just posted my first cut at the Alliance flag in the Blue Sun Room. Please provide any feedback especially on the proportions and the placement of the stars. -- Trooper

Hi Trooper,

With all respect, I posted my own take on the flag in the Blue Sun room - which is not to say that yours doesn't look as accurate, simply that I have it looking slightly differently.

I think I'll take a whack at the seal next.

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:03 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kozure:
Quote:
Originally posted by Trooper:
I just posted my first cut at the Alliance flag in the Blue Sun Room. Please provide any feedback especially on the proportions and the placement of the stars. -- Trooper

Hi Trooper,

With all respect, I posted my own take on the flag in the Blue Sun room - which is not to say that yours doesn't look as accurate, simply that I have it looking slightly differently.

I think I'll take a whack at the seal next.

Kozure the Kamikaze Highlander

Proud Citizen of Canada-That-Was

That is what I believe Trooper's would look like for the most part when sized down some.

Wonder what the two large stars and smaller stars in a semi circle stand for....

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:14 AM

Quote:
That is what I believe Trooper's would look like for the most part when sized down some.

Wonder what the two large stars and smaller stars in a semi circle stand for....

Heh, BrownCoat1, not to imply that you didn't read this thread, but that's exactly what I theorized about in the first post to this thread.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:26 AM

Kozure, I like the proportions of your flag better than those of the one I posted. I had used a 2:1 aspect, but have since learned every country has its own proportions for its flag. I just posed a square version, more like the one on the Alliance ship in "Bushwacked" in the picture that Lindley provided.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:38 AM

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Kozure:
Quote:
That is what I believe Trooper's would look like for the most part when sized down some.

Wonder what the two large stars and smaller stars in a semi circle stand for....

Heh, BrownCoat1, not to imply that you didn't read this thread, but that's exactly what I theorized about in the first post to this thread.

Read you theory Kozure, and your theory is as good as any I can come up with after thinking about it. I wonder if the fact that the Chinese flag is superimposed over the American flag has any significance.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:49 AM

ZAPHODB

Probably that was one of the points of contention during the negotiations for merging the two nation-states during the Alliance Formation Talks of 2216-18.

Industrial Looniee & Madness - http://www3.telus.net/vchrusch

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat1:

Read you theory Kozure, and your theory is as good as any I can come up with after thinking about it. I wonder if the fact that the Chinese flag is superimposed over the American flag has any significance.

I've always been interested in the symbology of flags and seals. One of my favourite flags in the world right now is that of South Africa. After the abolition of aparteid, the flag was altered. Now, the old Anglo-Dutch-Boer (red, white and blue horizontal bands) flag is combined with the traditional African colours of black, green and yellow. The six colours blend harmoniously and visually to create a new flag which is both aesthetically well balanced and tremendously symbolic.

To see a current example of flags which were formed from uniting traditionally independent states, witness the flag of the United Kingdom, an amalgam of the national flags of England (red cross of St. George on a white field) with Scotland (white saltire cross of St. Andrew on a blue field) and Ireland (red saltire cross of St. Patrick on a white field).

The blending of the United States and Chinese flags in the Firefly 'Verse isn't quite as subtle or aesthetically pleasant, but it's also quite effective.

It's instantly recognizable as an amalgam, while the addition of a second star on the Chinese red field changes it enough that you realize that there have been some political bargains struck. (If one central large star on the old Chinese flag meant one united Communist Party, does two stars represent the Capitalist and Communist systems existing side by side, or merely that the two former nations are equal partners? - if so, why is one offset?)

It's also significant that the white stars (traditionally symbolic of independence and freedom in the American flag) are missing from the blue field of the Alliance flag. It's no accident that the flag of Texas, which holds individual freedoms so highly, features (-ed, if you count its brief nationhood) a single large white star. Of course, they might have been omitted simply to avoid clutter.

Interpreting the seal is a different matter. I have no insight into it at the moment, other than the fact that the characters for Alliance feature largely and that there are two large stars.

Speaking of which, I've placed two versions of the Alliance Seal (the one found on Mal's pilot license and the other one found on ration packs and Federal troop shoulder patches) in the Blue Sun room.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:34 AM

Very nice Alliance seal, Kosure!

I too am interested in flags and heraldry. My thought on the Alliance flag was that it kept the fields of the US (red and white stripes), UK (blue), and Chinese (red) flags. (I support the theory that the UK is represented in the Alliance.) The charges of the US (starry canton) and UK (crosses) were dropped, while the stars of China were kept and increased by one for whatever that may imply.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:41 AM

Maybe the topic for another thread, but speaking of names, etc., I thought I saw a Chinese signature stamp for Mal in a picture of the press kit. Has anyone taken a close look? Is it a phonic representation of his name?

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:49 AM

RANGER

I'm not sure that the symbol is actually a "Flag" in the traditional sense. It may be more like the wing or tail markings on modern military aircraft. This might explain the more abstract nature of the design.

I also recall hearing a second explanation for the stars on the Chinese flag and seal. Though the official explanation is that of the party and the people, I have also been told that they have a lineage going back to Imperial China and represent the unification of the central empire with the outer provinces (Mongolia and Tibet being two of the four, not sure what the other two are). If that is the case, the second large star could represent China's offworld colonies as equal partners in China before the evacuation of earth.

Just my thoughts

Traveller, if you go to Sparta, tell them you have seen us lying here as the Law commands.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ranger:
I'm not sure that the symbol is actually a "Flag" in the traditional sense. It may be more like the wing or tail markings on modern military aircraft. This might explain the more abstract nature of the design.

I also recall hearing a second explanation for the stars on the Chinese flag and seal. Though the official explanation is that of the party and the people, I have also been told that they have a lineage going back to Imperial China and represent the unification of the central empire with the outer provinces (Mongolia and Tibet being two of the four, not sure what the other two are). If that is the case, the second large star could represent China's offworld colonies as equal partners in China before the evacuation of earth.

The idea of the "flag" symbol as a "roundel"-type object - that is, a military identifier similar to the USAF white star within a blue circle atop a red and white band - is a possibility, but I have a feeling it's somewhat distant. I can't really see roundel-type emblems placed on shipping crates (although, when you think about it, it's not usual to plaster flags on them either)

After some research, I found some other possible explanations for the four smaller stars:

1. The four smaller stars represent other political parties in China. This is unlikely since there are more than four other political parties other than the CPC in China (8-9, depending on who you cite)

2. The large star represents "Han" Chinese (what most Westerners assume the ethnicity of most Chinese to be) while the four smaller stars represent Manchurians, Mogolians, Tibetans and Muslims or Uyghurs. This explanation, mentioned by Ranger, is a possibility, since five colours figured prominently in earlier republican flags.

The official (i.e. Chinese government) explanation is that the central star is the Party and the four smaller stars represent the Chinese people collectively; which is not to say that the other explanations may not have had an effect on the final design, but it isn't the official line.

While looking for official explanation, I found a guide to constructing the flag properly (i.e. orientation of stars) and discovered that in the current Chinese flag (circa 2004) one point of each star points towards the centre of the larger one. This is all fine and dandy when you have one star, but creates a problem with two. I suppose what one might do is orient the points to the "implied centre" of the two larger stars. Since the orientation and individual points of the larger points are rarely clearly visible, much less the small ones, I think I'll have one more look on the DVD and update the Alliance Flag accordingly.

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Thursday, March 18, 2004 12:56 PM