Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Of course i do. Its called Faith.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
See, asking questions like this and saying only devout believers should answer is going to get you a acewed opinion. Believers are going to believe. They won't have an opinion on why someone would make such things up, and only very few see it as fables or learning tools rather than literal fact. I've known a few Christians who say "I think the lessons of the bible are true, but all those stories didn't literally happen" but most of them take it as fact. Which, no offense intended, it isn't.


Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by jossisagod:
I do not believe that the occurances were miracles. I do believe that Jesus was most likely smarter than the average citizen for his time. Did he cure those with mental illnesses or blindness, I don't know, I do think that at least some of the people he supposedly cured had temperary conditions.

That said, I lost my Faith/Belief in God as discribed in the Bible, in 2001 in a similar fashion to Mal. I'm now a Taoist/Buddhist. However, I do believe that some of the stories in the Bible, are good guidelines to live by, however, I don't think that slipping up a bit will land you/me in The Hot Place.

Fe'nos Tol
JOSSIS(Most Definitely)AGOD

Self appointed Forsaken! Been on the list for a while now!
98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature.
"Look at me, I'm STUPID!" The Doctor.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by leadb:
Having relaxed the constraints, I feel "empowered" to now participate.

Some of the biblical miracles may be miracles "against human nature", for instance, it is possible the miracle of feeding the crowd with fish and loaves was merely a matter of getting folks who had brought something to share with their neighbor, to "pass the basket" sos to speak. Frankly, given human nature, getting folks to even cooperate on that level might well qualify as a miracle.

There are conditions such as "histerical blindness" which are easily susceptible to sudden healing; and faith in a man's ability to do this could well be all it takes. Healing the lepers... well, now that one is a bit harder to explain.

Personally, do I believe literally in the miracles of the bible? I'd have to say no. But that is simply a personal belief.

As to miracles in the modern age, many believe they are a common occurrance. Keep in mind, that every time the catholic church declares a new saint, miracles must be attributed to the candidate (and as importantly, not attributed to any of the "known" saints). The church is not shabby in their investigations; they do -not- want to be made a fool of in the age of modern science on the modern press. They may be low key, but they are thorough in their investigations. They certainly believe in miracles in the modern age.

An aquaintance of mine (Bob), in high school, was born with certain deformities that made it difficult to walk; some surgeries over time made things better, but he was never far without his crutches. One evening, he went to a faith healer; I cannot recall the affiliation, other than "not catholic" (we went to a catholic HS, so I just recall he had a certain unease due to the discrepency); after the healer did his bit, Bob -walked- off the stage; I gather he did more walking that night without his crutches than he had before, nor (at least at the time he discussed it with me) since. The "since" part being the problem. Why was he able to walk off the stage? Was it a miracle, that wore off? His guilt at going to a "competative religious" event caused him to lose what the miracle had gained? His faith waivered, so he lost the miracle? I can't tell you; I can only tell you by the time he talked to me about it, he was feeling very bitter.

Do I believe in modern day miracles? No; I will concede things happen we cannot explain, but I put that at the fault of our understanding of science and the human condition than tending to attribute it to "miracles". Obviously, others feel otherwise. I will concede that both my position and those held contrary-wise are largely "faith based" positions.

I will even go as far as saying I hope I'm wrong; my only reservation is that god seems a bit stingy with his miracles.

Do of course keep in mind when asking for miracles, even the faithful will say, "Sometimes the answer is 'no'."

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by xitwound117:
Something pointed out by Thomas Paine in "The Age of Reason" (I'll paraphrase): miracles are a myth invented by the Christian church, as God can do everything. Rising from the dead and healing the blind is just as miraculous as the creation of the tiniest speck of dirt.

It always confused me how religious people called for miracles and addressed things as miracles, when, by believing in an all powerful deity, they should realize that the ground they stand on or the chair they sit in is far more miraculous than the simple defiance of rules and behaviors that the deity created.

It would be like saying falling toward the sky is a miracle. It would be a miracle of I did of my own power, or if any one of you did it of your power. But in relation to God, it is moreso a miracle that he made gravity, than it is that he made something refuse to adhere to gravity.

May we never let Firefly die.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I don’t believe in miracles. I’m not saying this to say that miracles don’t exist; I’ve just never seen one. I say this because I’ve never experienced one myself, nor in anyone one I know. If I were to fall off a 60 story building and survived, I might call that a miracle. I’ve been reading the bible, specifically the books with Jesus in it. I read about all of these miracles, and I’m not certain what to make of them. Someone felt strongly enough about them to add them to the bible, but you would think that if events like those happened in the time of Jesus, they would have periodically happened in other times…even in our modern times.

---

Quote:

---

So in the religions and beliefs that were in place before Christianity hit the scene, there were no such thing as miracles? Miracles are a creation of the Christian church?

-River

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

Interesting thought though.

-River

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

---

And such a story is inspiring in and of itself. Christianity spread originally, in the early church, almost exclusively among the poor, the slaves and the women. Later it would become the religion of the upper class, but it would spread like wildfire throughout the Roman world before that happened. People whose miserable existence under the heel of society led them to seek hope in the charity and love expressed by man who stood against the oppressor and overcame. In many respects it was a religion that was very unusual for its time. Most Greco-Roman religions and European pagan religions in general (including the German and Celtic religions) were designed to exalt the state or plead to man’s baser instincts. In other words, they were religions that either defined the rules of society or granted leisure or freedom from those rules, but that also meant that they tended to favor the powerful: the wealthy and the warriors. People who were in a position to benefit from a religion that espoused control or people whose wealth allowed them the free time to partake of hedonistic pleasures. Christianity was different, because it was a religion of control that did not exalt the state or free people of their responsibility. It provided rules by which society should function, but it also praised the meek and the poor and the sick. People who, quite frankly, were often ignored completely in other religions.

---

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

I'm not 'xactly a believer, but I attended a church for most of the last 10 years, every Sunday, and studied a lot of the Bible and a lot of commentary on it. I sorta hate ta say it, butI agree with most of what FinnMac had to say above.

And I've read some of Bishop John Shelby Spong, and find him speaking directly to me, and hitting the truth exactly.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.

---

Quote:

---

But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Hmmmm... So far it seems that most of you don't believe in the miracles that were written in the bible that Jesus performed. Here's a thought...what if it's true? What if Jesus did indeed perform these miracles? What if some guy was born with unusual abilities, and those abilities extended itself to curing blindness, disease other other human malady's? Let's say that out of all the humans that has ever been, one was born with the ability to heal? a true healer. Maybe that was what happened back then in the days of Jesus.

Interesting thought though.

-River

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Without Jesus and the miracles, there can be no Jesus coming back from the grave. There can be no taking on our sins and being forgiven for them. This would mean that the whole Christian faith is a lie, or a very not-so-clear story.

---

Not really.

The message itself makes sense and loses nearly nothing by removing the showiness of physical miracles.

Love, kindness, generosity, forgiveness... Those things place us as closely to heaven here on Earth as is possible. In my own private "The universe might be ruled by purple elephants" agnosticism, the story of Jesus is mostly a metaphor for human interaction and it makes none of it less powerful to me for the removal of God himself.

Replace God with "order of the universe", more concept, less personification, and you still end up with a set of golden rules.

Quote:

---

But, what if those things really took place? What if Jesus did rise from the grave after 3 days? What if Jesus did heal all of those sick people? What if after 2,000+ years we all find that what happened was so inconceivable that we turned our backs on it just to discover later that it was all true?

---

If "Love Thy Neighbor" doesn't resonate with you, a healed blind won't change that. It'll just make you greedy for some miracle saving yourself. That's not faith, either.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@RiveR6213:

You do _not_ need Jesus to exist to follow "his" teachings. You do _not_ need Jesus' miracles to have faith in God. Given faith in God, you do _not_ need Jesus to have died on the cross to have your sins forgiven. God could do that well enough on his own. Or do you doubt his power

EDIT: We're also going to have to realize that the bible, while written decades /after/ "Jesus' death," is also pretty much a collection of re-hashed stories (with spin) of earlier religions e.g. Babylonian. In other words, not only is it horribly inconsistent (if taken even remotely literally), but its stories are hardly unique.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Actually, I think that a healed blind person would have a major effect on how I view the Christian religion, or at least the key players: God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and how I've viewed them. Especially if I was there to see that healing for myself. An event like that might change my mind to the forces that are working out there and maybe bring some truth of that home to me. It would force me to think about the choice of which side am I going to be on.

---

Quote:

---

People say that Faith is all you need in this particular religion, but I think most people need to have that faith based on something that they have seen and experienced for themselves; I'm one of them I suppose.

---

Quote:

---

I think this mystical character Jesus would have had a profound effect on the people of this world if he chose to show up in this modern age and started healing people and preaching his head off. This would cause a great stir in the world because people would be saying " OMG, it's all true!" and be forced to look inward.

---

Quote:

---

Saying " Love Thy Neighbor" is fine and all, and it looks nice written on paper or spoken by a poet, but it does not stand up to the acid test of living. People respect action more than words. The witnessing of a person getting healed would carry more weight with the masses.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Redlava:
To simply answer the question. No. I think the Bible is full of stories that have been around for many years before it was written. The author(s) have just bent them and tweeked them here and there to fit the morality tales they wanted to portray.

I look at it like an ancient "The Divinci Code." Loosely based on real events, but still a work of fiction.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
Of course i do. Its called Faith.

---

Why do you think we don't get to see stuff like what happened during Jesus's time today in this modern age? I would imagine people seeing other people being healed of their problems like blindness, or retardation, or cancer in this modern day by a person who had a strong faith, and a complete belief in God as a major draw to joiningg the Christian church and worshiping that God. Why did that stuff only happen in the past? Why not have it happen now? Could it be that back then people believed much deeper than now? Or was it all just made up?

-River

---

Quote:

---

Faith in Christianity centers on faith in the Resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) '... the gospel I preached to you... Otherwise, you have believed in vain...'. The same book says, in 15:14: "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (see also Acts 2:32; Philippians 3:10; John 11:25). That he was raised from the death for God the Father. Most Christians believe that God is one eternal being who exists as three distinct, eternal, and indivisible persons: the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ the eternal Word), and the Holy Spirit.

The precise meaning of Faith in Christianity differs in the various Christian belief systems

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:

For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?

Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad do you have guts enough to see them?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
[B]@RiveR6213:
"""
Desperately Seeking Susan
"""

Or they never happened and the /stories/ where presented to people. Basically, the moment you realize that the bible is *far* from literal truth, you come to a whole bunch of necessary conclusions (or necessary questions). Like, did Jesus actually exist.


The way you are going about this is also quite odd. You keep talking about a literal interpretation of the bible. I/We keep saying that this is a *very* poor assumption. One which is completely unfounded. You say that you don't believe these things happened. But, you keep interpreting the bible as literal fact even though pretty much everyone here has told you (some with reference) that the bible certainly is _not_. Why are you blocking this?


Btw, Jesus didn't exist before the New Testament. Thus there are exactly zero referenced, metaphor or not, about Jesus.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:

For doesn't the bible say Love thy neighbor as thyself?

Everyday miracles do happen. But in a world gone mad do you have guts enough to see them?

---

What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?

---

Well i did have the guts to stand by my beliefs,in the face of countless opposition

But "guts" wasn't the word i was looking for- "time" was.

Scorpion:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
What a lovely way to put the "love" in christianity. Basically, say love thy neighour, and then question people in an offensive way.

Do have the "guts" to see that?

---

You’re offended by that? Wow, you have some pretty thin skin, dotcha?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
River-

you don't think that the experience of a new internal philosophy could be freeing and inspiring enough? If enough people experience it?

It may seem obvious, but when people suddenly and actually accept the idea of selflessness and helping each other, acceptance and kindness... that sort of stuff can change lives.

That IS an alternative explanation to actual physical miracles, in terms of impact, but you keep rejecting it out of hand. You're not even trying to react to those suggestions.

So, are you even looking for answers or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

---

Based on what it seems you’re looking for, it doesn’t seem likely that you’re going to find that “aha.” So I would suggest that you need to reevaluate your goals in this case. It doesn’t seem very likely that you will ever have absolute proof of the miracles described in the Bible. And if you do, it will be a revolutionary event that will completely change the world we live in. It almost seems as if you’re trying to set up Christianity to fail, and I think that is the wrong approach.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by AgentRouka:
River-

you don't think that the experience of a new internal philosophy could be freeing and inspiring enough? If enough people experience it?

It may seem obvious, but when people suddenly and actually accept the idea of selflessness and helping each other, acceptance and kindness... that sort of stuff can change lives.

That IS an alternative explanation to actual physical miracles, in terms of impact, but you keep rejecting it out of hand. You're not even trying to react to those suggestions.

So, are you even looking for answers or do you just want to hear yourself talk?

---

I am not rejecting anything, I'm just looking for the hole here. I'm looking for that one thing I can point at and say "aha!" and so far I'm not finding it. And also, you must mean do I want to see myself write? No, I'm on a quest, and in the process I'm interested in a good topic. My ego is not involved here.

-River

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm just trying to understand. I've read all the Jesus stuff about the miracles that Jesus performed and I had questions regarding that. It seems that no one really believes in the miracle aspect of the Christian religion. I'm just referring to the people here in this topic, but I am also thinking about the world Christian leaders. Do they not believe in these miracles themselves? If not then there is a problem in the whole Christian religion.

-River

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by NewOldBrownCoat:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm just trying to understand. I've read all the Jesus stuff about the miracles that Jesus performed and I had questions regarding that. It seems that no one really believes in the miracle aspect of the Christian religion. I'm just referring to the people here in this topic, but I am also thinking about the world Christian leaders. Do they not believe in these miracles themselves? If not then there is a problem in the whole Christian religion.

-River

---

I have a lovely book that I borrowed from my church's library. It's called The Christian Agnostic, by Leslie D Weatherhead, originally published in 1965. He was pastor for 25 years to a Methodist church in Central London, a very hi profile position.
He examines a lot of these questions very specifically, and frankly admits that many of the Methodist church's rituals and official creeds are impossible to believe in. He said, paprphrased, that he would never stand up in the pulpit and say anything that he could not believe as a rational man. In consequance, he simply did not preach on the things that he disagreed with, did not include official rituals he could not suppodt in his services.

He still found plenty of stuff to preach and write about.

---