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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
That is not an approach I'm willing to take. I have nothing against Christianity. I'm just stubbornly wanting to know about the miracle issue. Is it true or not? Did it happen or didn't it, and why if it happened in the past why not have it happen now?

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I think these are question that will have to be left rhetorical, because if these miracles occurred as they are literally depicted, there is no one here with the understanding to explain them to begin with. None of us were there to tell you for sure if it happened, and none of us have the grasp of nature to explain them. We don’t completely understand the world we live in now, but we do know that, at least, at the quantum level, some rather miraculous things may happen. There are plenty of mysteries in science that have yet to be explored, and there are aspects of reality that our minds simply lack, and probably will always lack, the capacity to understand. I’m of the mind to believe that there is far more to the universe and reality then we as a people will ever come close to fully understanding.

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Originally posted by Causal:
Of course, this entire discussion is predicated on a couple of fundamental questions:

1) Do you accept methodological naturalism? This cornerstone of the scientific method holds that given any phenomenon, that phenomenon has a natural explanation. Clearly, science has been proceeding nicely on that assumption. The trouble is, it's beyond proof. You can't use scientific investigation to prove that every phenomenon has a natural explanation, because you'd have to have access to every phenomenon in the universe as well as the ability to test it--and that, of course, is impossible. So methodological naturalism can't be proven conclusively. So the naturalist still has to accept a proposition that is beyond proof.

2) Do you accept material reductionism? That is, do you accept that only physical things exist? Again, this suffers from the same problem as methodological naturalism: namely, it can't be proven. Spiritual entities would by definition be non-physical. But the physical sciences by definition only deal with the physically observable. So even if there were non-physical entitities, science wouldn't give access to them. And anyway, the foundational assertion of reductionism is that given any X, X is a physical thing. But we've already discussed the difficulty attendant to proven these sorts of propositions. So again, accepting material reductionism means believing a proposition that is beyond proof.

I think the way a person answers these questions is going to control the way they answer the question about miracles. A person who is highly committed to material reduction and to methodological naturalism is going to have to say, "no," because on their view miracles are impossible.

But suppose for the moment, for the sake of argument, that there is a God, and that that God has the attributes that traditional believers say he does (again, for the sake of argument). One of the attributes traditionally predicated of God is that he is all-powerful--he can do anything. So remember, for the sake of argument, that we are supposing that there is a God, and that that God can do anything. Causing a man to walk on water (for instance) would certainly be within the power of such a being. Bending or suspending the normal operations of nature would certainly be within the power of such a being.

The frustrating thing about this type of discussion is that often times, those asserting the naturalistic worldview are taken to be "rational" whilst the religious believer is taken to be "irrational" or, worse, "illogical." But the existence of a deity is still an open question in that it has not been proven conclusively either way. So the intellectual burden on each of us is to examine the evidence and arguments and accept the position that seems to make the most sense. For myself, I am persuaded that I must reject both rigorous methodological naturalism as well as material reduction, and believe in a deity. Being that I do, I certainly believe it's possible for that deity to perform miracles. And being that I believe that, I have no problem accepting the Biblical account of miracles.

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Ps 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

Jn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

Jn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Jn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Jn 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else Believe me for the very works' sake.

Jn 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. these things are good and profitable unto men.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.

-River

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Originally posted by leadb:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.

-River

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Ah, but is truth determined by what most people in this forum believe? All you got here is opinions, not truth.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:

Well there is that matter of some who do believe in God but don't believe in his miracles. I find that to be interesting.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River

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Originally posted by misbehavin:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
Well it seems that most people don't believe in the Miracles that are in the bible. Too bad. It would have been fun to know that something like that was true.
-River

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Sorry that I arrived at this topic late, but wanted to add my voice to the mix. I absolutely believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, performed all of the miracles exactly as described, willingly died to pay my penalty for sin, rose in bodily form from the grave, and that he will come again as the King that he is. Those miracles validated that he truly was and is the Son of God. Not many will believe, but we're told to expect that. Narrow is the way that leads to life and few find it. In fact, we are incapable of believing unless God himself enables us. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If you are curious, River, God may be drawing you. Read the book of John, asking God first to open your eyes for understanding, and maybe you will discover faith. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn001.html

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Originally posted by Causal:
Sorry, River, that you felt that we were all anti-miracle. My long and rambling post was my way of saying, "Yes, I believe that the miracles happened." I agree with Misbehaving on this one.

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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I read your earlier post and I got that. You were one of the few that believed in the miracles, so no sorry is needed. I don't know why but I've been angry all day regarding this particular thread and I can't put my finger on why.

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Originally posted by Causal:

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I read your earlier post and I got that. You were one of the few that believed in the miracles, so no sorry is needed. I don't know why but I've been angry all day regarding this particular thread and I can't put my finger on why.

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Ah, good. Sometimes I get so elliptical that even I forget what I started out trying to say! Glad to know it came through.

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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police`

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Originally posted by Causal:
Mea culpa--and no denying. That's also why I miss emotional cues that seem obvious to other people. I'm always trying to dissect things; trouble is, sometimes things just are what they seem to be.

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- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

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Originally posted by traveler:
For me the fact that we exist at all is a miracle. So why not others. It is hard to beleave the Bible, at least for me, because it has been edited so many times through the centuries that the original is buried under other's misconceptions. I do have a a book called "The Book of J" that scholars believe to be the nearest thing to the original First Book of the Hebrew Faith. I found it at Half Price Books of all places. But It is very enlighting as to what some believe is the true sense of what God is all about. It shows that God is very human. So that statement "in his likeness" is very real when you witness the emotions and the behavior that God has according to this edition.

On a final note. Who says miracles aren't happening today. There are some people out there that see them where others are blind to them.


Traveler

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Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
It’s not really a question of not believing in miracles as much as it is in choosing the words that I use so as to not to commit to something that I can’t provide adequate support for. And I can’t tell you that Jesus walked on water, I can only tell you that this is what the Bible says. Now if I told you that I believed that Jesus walked on water, would that really answer your question? Would that really provide you the "truth" you seek? I can believe just about anything and I can tell you just about anything, but that I believe a thing will not make it real to you. The only thing I can tell you is what I’ve already told you. That 2000 or so years ago in Judea, something happened concerning a man named Jesus that inspired people to begin believing in him such that today a full one third of the entire world, over two billion people, are followers of that man. I can’t perform a miracle and I can’t direct you to anyone who can, but I can tell you that my study of physics has proven without question to me that there is far more in heaven and earth then we can dream of. Now I know what all of this means to me, but you’ll have to decide what it means to you, because unfortunately, the extent of the answer that I can provide you will always fall short of proof.

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Originally posted by zzetta13:
Ok if you’re looking for an answer or opinion here’s mine. I’ve been avoiding this thread like the plague because, well this subject usually stirs ppl up. I was kinda waiting for this theard to sink to the bottom but for reasons of one thing or another it keeps floating back near the top.

Here’s my belief and it isn’t a matter of discussion or debate ( that’s what the original post starter ask for)

1) I do believe in a God. A big YES.
2) I do believe in Jesus. Yepper on that one too. He’s my brother.
3) If I believe in the first two does that have a link into believing in miracles? Affirmative.


Now why do I feel that I have to believe in all these? Ever without my actually seeing it with my own eyes or having pure proof? First of all I don’t have to, I choose to. Secondly I’ve been told that there are planets and moons and all sorts of things on the other side of the universe. Why should I believe this? I’ve never seen them either. I just believe that they’re there. I believe in a multitude of things that I have never seen, felt, smelled or tasted or heard. Beautiful things and horrid things too. Without trying to sound to corny I think life is a miracle and a mystery. Just when we are finding something out another question or two about it pops up. Now I’m not a holy roller, preacher or any such person. I’m just a person and have fallen by the wayside many times. Hope that it hasn’t made to bad a blemish on my soul. I am human, but I should try to do better.Anyoo-

Like I said before I’m not here to debate anyone over my beliefs. I don’t feel that any one religion is better than any other and if your belief is that we are here and it’s just us with no God or any supreme nature responsible for all of this than I respect your thoughts.

So do I believe in miracles? YES, totally, Z

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