Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I’ve not read his book or seen the documentary. I’m aware of what it is about, but I don’t know what particular theory Dawkins takes on the issue.

I will say this on the general idea, as I understand it. Some people within secularist circles have long held the theory that religion is the cause of much or most violence in the world. This is, I think, a misguided assertion. Blaming religion is simply a convenient witch to burn for secularists. In reality, the whole idea makes no sense. If religion was really the cause of violence, it is almost hard to imagine that any of us are alive today or could function in society at all, given the prevalence of religion in our culture. Yet the vast majority of religious individuals are not only not violence but good and decent people. And many very religious communities, such as the Amish, live in far greater peace then modern secular society. Furthermore, it ignores the violence perpetrated in the name of atheistic philosophies, such as Communism and Fascism, which far exceeds the violence perpetrated in the name of religion. Once again I would point out that I’m not familiar with Dawkins’s particular theories on this matter, but as per the general idea, I think it’s ludicrous.

---

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by meg1448:
Ludicrous? Really? It's been said before but I'll say it again....more people have died in the name of god than any other. Hundreds of millions have been the victims of religious persecution. The reason why we're still around is because we keep repopulating and because there are, thankfully, many rational people around. Religious extremists are really the problem. Not only do they believe whole-heartedly that what they preach is the only right way, some of them also wield enormous power. Unfortunately, they tend to give most religious people a bad name. To say that the violence perpetrated by atheists outweighs the violence perpetrated by people of faith is completely false and, well, fairly ridiculous. Atheists make up the vast minority of most cultures.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Because it's an interesting subject? Besides, if you think there've been fights in these last few religion threads, you should check our RWED sometime. We're positively tame by comparison. And I hope you weren't accusing me of baiting anybody for a fight. The person I responded to asserted that religion is the primary source of violence. I merely pointed out three instances of massive violence that were not undertaken in the name of religion. That's hardly baiting anyone for a fight.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by meg1448:
Ludicrous? Really? It's been said before but I'll say it again....more people have died in the name of god than any other. Hundreds of millions have been the victims of religious persecution. The reason why we're still around is because we keep repopulating and because there are, thankfully, many rational people around. Religious extremists are really the problem. Not only do they believe whole-heartedly that what they preach is the only right way, some of them also wield enormous power. Unfortunately, they tend to give most religious people a bad name. To say that the violence perpetrated by atheists outweighs the violence perpetrated by people of faith is completely false and, well, fairly ridiculous. Atheists make up the vast minority of most cultures.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
I meant the title of this topic.. God Delusion?

---

Quote:

---

Also the tone you just took when i mentioned the possible baiting- hostile? Why?

---

Quote:

---

But as a practising Christian i sense a general hostility toward me and mine. And thats not kosher.All religions have thier bad eggs.

---

Quote:

---

Don't call me delusional just because i choose to believe in something that you don't.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
The title of this thread was not invented by the author of the thread. The author of this thread should have posted a link or cited some source. It is the name of a documentary, which seeks (to my understanding) to justify in some way the position that religion is root of all evil. It seems to have become somewhat of a fad these days to make documentaries that are unnecessarily or inappropriately critical of religion, and in my opinion is indicative of a very religious intolerant attitude sweeping through out culture right now.

I’m sure both Causal and I share your frustration in this matter. Causal is not a poster who has ever demonstrated a desire to generalize or ridicule people for their religion or anything else really and typically has some very well thought out and informed posts that are worth reading and taking seriously.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:

Quote:

---

... I meant the title of this topic.. God Delusion?

---

The God Delusion is the title of a book by Oxford biologist Richard Dawkins. Dawkins' central assertion is that religion is a destructive force in the world that ought to be rooted out (he has, I believe, suggested, among other things that religious educators should be removed from the classroom and that the state ought to remove children from religious homes).

http://www.amazon.com/God-Delusion-Richard-Dawkins/dp/0618680004/ref=p
d_bbs_sr_1/103-7753046-6183800?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1179929644&sr=8-1]

I saw that. I have no interest in reading it.Sounds like hostility in the highest form

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Also the tone you just took when i mentioned the possible baiting- hostile? Why?

---

With all due respect, I think you may be slightly oversensitive. There is no "tone" in white words on a black background--there is only the text and what the text says. "Tone" comes from interpretation. I wasn't being hostile at all, just trying to answer the question of why we would want to discuss this topic. I could well level the accusation of hostility at you given the fight-baiting remark that you made, but I didn't want to do that--that's why I made the comments that I did.

---

I,of course, was not refering to you as i said before- but to the original post.You can sense a tone from reading anything-and it would be different to anyone. I still have bad feelings from the last "religion" thread i was in.
It was said:

Quote:

---

asking questions like this and saying only devout believers should answer is going to get you a scewed opinion

---

makes me wanna GRRR ARRR

Quote:

---

...

Quote:

---

But as a practising Christian i sense a general hostility toward me and mine. And thats not kosher.All religions have thier bad eggs.

---

Well, as a practicing Christian myself, I have to agree that I have, at various times, felt the same sort of hostility you describe. But again, with reference to tone, I can't be sure how much is me being overly sensitive and how much is genuine antipathy. But then again, when you hear someone say they'd enjoy watching Christians being burned at the stake (which was said on these boards, if you can believe it), it's pretty clear that there's some hostility.

---

I have seen its pretty much one sided too. People are just looking for an agrument

Quote:

---

...

Quote:

---

.

Quote:

---

Don't call me delusional just because i choose to believe in something that you don't.

---

I'm not calling you delusional, and I don't think that anyone else here is. That's just the title of the documentary that Calhoun saw.

---

..

---

---

Which is what i was refering to.

Scorpion:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Khyron:
I propose the admins move this thread to RWED. How can we discuss this topic meaningfully if we aren't allowed to throw personal abuse at each other!?

---

Quote:

---

Seriously though, I'm an atheist and for the most part I like Dawkins, but I agree with everything Finn and Causal have said in this thread so far. While it's good that people like Dawkins are making people ask questions about the role of religion in general and their personal faith in particular, something that many of them may not have done before, he does take it a bit too far sometimes. Saying that religion is the root of all evil is just silly.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by meg1448:
Atheists make up the vast minority of most cultures.

---

I'd also like to see your sources on the notion that atheists are in the majority.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FollowMal:
And I'd like to gently point out that minority was the word used.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Tinadoll:
I have seen its pretty much one sided too. People are just looking for an agrument.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by FollowMal:

Y/W

*bows respectfully*

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Hitler even based his genocide on pseudo-scientific eugenics theories.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Hitler even based his genocide on pseudo-scientific eugenics theories.

---

The Nazis were supported by the Catholics. The Nazi war-machine could not have functioned without them.

Hitler in his speeches spoke about removing the 'Jew' so a 'Christian' empire could flourish.

---

Quote:

---

Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies, is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration:
1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted. [[]Emphasis mine.[]]

-- Adolf Hitler in a speech at the Reichstag 30JAN1939.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Ah, the RWE gang rolls in to disrupt our nice civil discussion.

---

Quote:

---

Hitler killed Jews because of his understanding of nationalism and Social Darwinism, with a little eugenics thrown in to boot.

---

Quote:

---

He didn't kill them because as a "Christian" it was his duty to kill Jews.

---

Quote:

---

They cast the struggle as Aryan vs. Jew, not Christian vs. Jew.

---

Quote:

---

As well, I know that the Catholic church was silent, but complicit?

---

Quote:

---

Hitler "couldn't have done it without them?" Those are claims in need of justification.

---

Quote:

---

And if you're fond of pinning the blame for evil on religion, then why did Stalin, an atheist, slaughter (by some estimates) 10 million of his own countrymen? Or why did Pol Pot kill so many Cambodians?

---

Quote:

---

Sometimes religion makes a great cover for a power grab, but I'd submit that most of what is commonly taken as purely religious violence is really just a power grab dressed up pretty (which is what I think Hitler was after: popularizing his Anti-Semitism by dressing it up, rather than it being genuine religious conviction).

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So Hitler was not using Christianity as a tool of violence but rather as a tool to dishonestly assuage the fears of a Christian nation that would never have willing accepted Hitler’s atrocities. While Hitler himself was clearly not a supporter of Christianity, unless he was using it to tell the Germans of his religiously tolerant policies.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Ah, the RWE gang rolls in to disrupt our nice civil discussion.

---

I'm afraid, Casual, considering I didn't attack you, nor conduct myself in anything but a civil manner you don't get to blame me for any 'uncivil discourse' here. Especially when it is you who attacked me, I ask you, was this attack on me necessary? Or am I forbidden from having an opinion here?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Ah, the RWE gang rolls in to disrupt our nice civil discussion.

---

I'm afraid, Casual, considering I didn't attack you, nor conduct myself in anything but a civil manner you don't get to blame me for any 'uncivil discourse' here. Especially when it is you who attacked me, I ask you, was this attack on me necessary? Or am I forbidden from having an opinion here?

Quote:

---

Hitler killed Jews because of his understanding of nationalism and Social Darwinism, with a little eugenics thrown in to boot.

---

Hitler killed the Jews because he was psychotic and lusted for power. He justified it with some psuedo-science, nationalism AND Catholicism.

Quote:

---

He didn't kill them because as a "Christian" it was his duty to kill Jews.

---

I never said he did. You said that Hitler, and the Nazis had nothing to do with religion, that is obviously not the case. They had tanks being blessed, Hitler played to the popular support of Catholics, the reasons for this (the fact they were the dominate group) are obvious, but the fact that HE didn't believe in Christianity, that HE didn't believe what they were doing was for the Christian god, does not remove the fact that many of his followers did.

I was merely pointing out that where you claim Hitler and Nazis 'had nothing to do with religion' isn't entirely the whole story.

Quote:

---

They cast the struggle as Aryan vs. Jew, not Christian vs. Jew.

---

They also cast it as building a Christian empire, that was what got a great deal of the population 'on side'.

Quote:

---

As well, I know that the Catholic church was silent, but complicit?

---

The Catholic church is known to have helped Nazis escape the Allies, the Pope used to be a member of the Hitler youth, the Catholic church holds more complicity than merely silence, but I was more thinking of the Catholics of Germany. Having said that, if Rome had not been so silent it's possible that Hitler wouldn't have gained that popular Catholic support.

Quote:

---

Hitler "couldn't have done it without them?" Those are claims in need of justification.

---

Really? You think saying "without the support of the largest group in Germany Hitler couldn't have done what he did" needs clarification?

Quote:

---

And if you're fond of pinning the blame for evil on religion, then why did Stalin, an atheist, slaughter (by some estimates) 10 million of his own countrymen? Or why did Pol Pot kill so many Cambodians?

---

You're making sweeping statements. Some evil acts being non-religious doesn't indicate there are no evil acts that are.

Furthermore, you're dragging me into a debate that I didn't comment on. I commented on one specific, that you seem to want to shoe horn into a generalisation I did not make.

Quote:

---

Sometimes religion makes a great cover for a power grab, but I'd submit that most of what is commonly taken as purely religious violence is really just a power grab dressed up pretty (which is what I think Hitler was after: popularizing his Anti-Semitism by dressing it up, rather than it being genuine religious conviction).

---

So Hitler not believing in Religion, not using that as his motivation, means his followers didn't? Does a cult leader not believing what he preaches mean cults aren't to blame for kool-aid incidents?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So Hitler was not using Christianity as a tool of violence but rather as a tool to dishonestly assuage the fears of a Christian nation that would never have willing accepted Hitler’s atrocities. While Hitler himself was clearly not a supporter of Christianity, unless he was using it to tell the Germans of his religiously tolerant policies.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:
Did you not see the big smiley face I put next to that comment? Or perhaps you began your reply before I had time to edit mine. In any event, that was meant as a bit of fun at your expense. Sorry that didn't quite come across.

---

Quote:

---

See? And this is why I don't like RWE discussions. My point with Hitler: religion wasn't the cause of the Holocaust. That's all. I just plain disagree with you, that's all.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by citizen:
Since I didn't say Religion was responcible for Hitlers thinking I'm not sure how you're 'disagreeing' with me .

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Furthermore, it ignores the violence perpetrated in the name of atheistic philosophies, such as Communism and Fascism, which far exceeds the violence perpetrated in the name of religion.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by meg1448:
Ludicrous? Really? It's been said before but I'll say it again....more people have died in the name of god than any other. Hundreds of millions have been the victims of religious persecution. The reason why we're still around is because we keep repopulating and because there are, thankfully, many rational people around. Religious extremists are really the problem. Not only do they believe whole-heartedly that what they preach is the only right way, some of them also wield enormous power. Unfortunately, they tend to give most religious people a bad name. To say that the violence perpetrated by atheists outweighs the violence perpetrated by people of faith is completely false and, well, fairly ridiculous. Atheists make up the vast minority of most cultures.

---

I'd like to see your sources on the "hundreds of millions" statistic.

I'd also like to see your sources on the notion that atheists are in the majority. Most cultural studies I've seen assert just the opposite. For instance, the CIA World Factbook ( https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/index.html) lists the percentage of Americans claiming no religion at all as 10%. And according to a 2002 Pew Research Poll ( http://www.adherents.com/rel_USA.html), only 1% of respondents claimed to be atheists! Hardly the majority you claim.

________________________________________________________________________

- Grand High Poobah of the Mythical Land of Iowa, and Keeper of State Secrets
- Captain, FFF.net Grammar Police

---

Quote:

---

Finn mac Cumhal wrote:
Wednesday, May 23, 2007 04:19
The title of this thread was not invented by the author of the thread. The author of this thread should have posted a link or cited some source. It is the name of a documentary, which seeks (to my understanding) to justify in some way the position that religion is root of all evil.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Calhoun:
One of the main points of the documentary was that to believe in god one must cease all rational thought processes. Disregard all empiric and scientific evidence regarding the world and universe and just accept some words written in an old book to be the way of things.

---

Quote:

---

It was quoted that surveys show around 45% of all americans believe the universe to be only 10,000 yrs old..

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by meg1448:
Hundreds of millions isn't that big of a number when you consider the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Protestant Inquisition, the Thirty Years War, etc....not to mention human sacrifices and the like.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
The reality is that belief in religion requires the suspension of rational thought, but only where said religion is involved.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Calhoun:
Maybe people should watch the documentary in order to make informed comment.

The initial post asked if anyone had seen the documentary and what their opinion of it was. It doesnt seem like anyone commenting actually watched the show.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Causal:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by fredgiblet:
The reality is that belief in religion requires the suspension of rational thought, but only where said religion is involved.

---

That's a bold claim. How would you go about backing it up?

---

Quote:

---

Causal wrote:
Wednesday, May 23, 2007 13:41

Well, you made the claim that religious belief is irrational. How do you justify that claim? Or is that claim itself beyond rational proof?

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by fredgiblet:

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Furthermore, it ignores the violence perpetrated in the name of atheistic philosophies, such as Communism and Fascism, which far exceeds the violence perpetrated in the name of religion.

---

The mistake you are making here is that you are equating violence done in the name of a philosophy that includes atheism with violence done in the name of atheism. By this same logic all violence done in the name of theistic philosophies (which have outnumbered atheistic philosophies since the dawn of time) would be done in the name of theism. I'll grant the first point if you will grant the second since that still means that religion gets the higher body count.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by meg1448:
Hundreds of millions isn't that big of a number when you consider the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, the Protestant Inquisition, the Thirty Years War, etc....not to mention human sacrifices and the like.

---

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
If you add up all the deaths that have been the result of purely secular and political wars and genocide during the 20th century alone you will likely come to a number so large that you only have to go back a thousand years before you come to a time in history when there weren’t that many people on the entire planet.

---